Why are fundies so stupid?

[Bonniedundee]

I swear there must be an I.Q. limit for fundies,they all seem to be so stupid,not only that but why are they always so offensive and insulting.
Has anyone else experienced the same sort of things from Fundies?

[B.S. Lewis]

not trying to be the forum cop or anything, but GRD.

[Bonniedundee]

not trying to be the forum cop or anything, but GRD.
Huh?

[Bonniedundee]

Is thread not allowed?

[Loren Pechtel]

Is thread not allowed?

He's suggesting that it's in the wrong forum. He's not trying to say it's not allowed. I'm inclined to agree.

The reason they are stupid is simple: Intelligent people rarely become fundies.

[Godless Wonder]

I don't actually think they are stupid, for the most part (despite what one might conclude from my posts). I do think they manage to believe some stupid things though. My theory is that their brains are (metaphor warning) bent into pretzel shape while they are children, and maintained in pretzel shape for the duration. When you try to straighten them out, their brains have been in pretzel shape for so long, it doesn't feel remotely right to them when things are straightened out. It feels downright wrong and even painful to straighten things out. Pretzel shape is what they are accustomed to and what is comfortable.

Some of them occasionally manage to untwist themselves anyhow.

[RexT]

I swear there must be an I.Q. limit for fundies,they all seem to be so stupid,not only that but why are they always so offensive and insulting.
Has anyone else experienced the same sort of things from Fundies?
Well, I know how you feel, but you might want to reconsider your choice of words here. First, Adolf Hitler was a fundie of sorts, I would say he was insane, but stupid he was not. In fact, he was a genius of a certain kind, possessing an intellect far above the norm.

The problem, as I see it, is that no matter how intelligent you are, if you begin with a faulty premise, you will brilliantly reach an insane conclusion, as did Hitler. The same applies to all fundies, their premise is wrong, thus, their great intellect leads to great disaster. Apparently, the greater the intellect, the greater the disaster.

Rex

[Thor Q. Mada]

To stay in the simple world of the fundies, it is basically the chicken and egg situation.
What came first:
-Since you are a fundy you are or become stupid or
-Since you are stupid chances are you beocme a fundy.

:)

[His Noodly Appendage]

Q: Why are there no dumb brunettes?

A: Peroxide.

[travc]

Standard self-selection correlation problem... but perhaps with a little causal twist. Does being dumb make one more likely to become a fundie? I would think so, but it would be an interesting thing to test.

BTW: If you want to post a Political Discussion thread esentially similar to this... How about posing the question "Why are conservatives so prone to follow authoritarian leaders?" Hell, you could even go the extra mile and get John Dean's latest book with goes into this topic a good bit and gives the references to a bunch of academic studies.

[Tigers!]

BTW: If you want to post a Political Discussion thread esentially similar to this... How about posing the question "Why are conservatives so prone to follow authoritarian leaders?" Hell, you could even go the extra mile and get John Dean's latest book with goes into this topic a good bit and gives the references to a bunch of academic studies.


Bit of a broad brush stroke here I think.
Let's look at other authoritian leaders Stalin, Lenin, Mao. they had lots of people follow then and look, most of them were atheists in outlook.
Following authoritian leaders is a problem for all of humanity regardless of faith, belief, unbelief etc:

[Jolly_Penguin]

Following authoritarian leaders is a problem for all of humanity yes, but it is especially found in religion. Is God not the ultimate authoritarian figure? One that is to be obeyed without question and with "Faith". Authoritarianism exists absent religion but religion is the ultimate tool and catalyst for it.

[Tigers!]

Following authoritarian leaders is a problem for all of humanity yes, but it is especially found in religion. Is God not the ultimate authoritarian figure? One that is to be obeyed without question and with "Faith". Authoritarianism exists absent religion but religion is the ultimate tool and catalyst for it.
I'm more concerned about authoritian politicians

[WishboneDawn]

I swear there must be an I.Q. limit for fundies,they all seem to be so stupid,not only that but why are they always so offensive and insulting.
Has anyone else experienced the same sort of things from Fundies?

I think any funy on this board would be quite fair to label you a hypocrit with this post.

[southernhybrid]

I think any funy on this board would be quite fair to label you a hypocrit with this post.

People rarely notice their own irony. :D

[Alethias]

I swear there must be an I.Q. limit for fundies,they all seem to be so stupid,not only that but why are they always so offensive and insulting.
Has anyone else experienced the same sort of things from Fundies?
No. I'm around fundamentalist christians most days. Some of them aren't stupid, and some of them are. Some of them aren't offensive and insulting and some of them are.

Alethias

[Magus55]

He's suggesting that it's in the wrong forum. He's not trying to say it's not allowed. I'm inclined to agree.

The reason they are stupid is simple: Intelligent people rarely become fundies.
That isn't always true. Intelligent people may not become fundies as often, but fundamentalism and literalism is more like brainwashing. It makes you push inside your own understanding and intelligence, and plays them off as worthless.

[seebs]

I think they're stupid because pride has made them dismiss people who disagree with them as stupid or ignorant, and thus they've deprived themselves of one of the sanity checks that are needed for effective rational thought.

Note that this is hardly unique to religious fundamentalists; you find it in pretty much any group.

[angela2]

I think they're stupid because pride has made them dismiss people who disagree with them as stupid or ignorant, and thus they've deprived themselves of one of the sanity checks that are needed for effective rational thought.

Note that this is hardly unique to religious fundamentalists; you find it in pretty much any group.
I agree except that I think it's fear of postmodernity that has fostered all varieties of fundamentalism. The fear is that the world has come loose from its theological moorings. Open possibilities are not a hallmark of fundamentalism.

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't think it's a case of stupidity. I used to work with one guy who was a computer programmer and one of the sharpest guys I've ever met. He also, however, believed that the world was 6,000 years old, evolution faked and letting kids read Harry Potter was encouraging witchcraft (because witches exist).

His analytical processes when it came to religious matters just based themselves off of a different set of premises than those which I would find rational. He wasn't willing to question those premises and so came up with a lot of really convoluted logical explanations for things that didn't agree with them. For instance, the reason we can see things billions of light years away is because the speed of light used to be faster and has slown down to what it is now.

Fundies can be as smart as anyone. They just operate off of a different set of premises.

[MrWhy]

I swear there must be an I.Q. limit for fundies,they all seem to be so stupid,not only that but why are they always so offensive and insulting.
Has anyone else experienced the same sort of things from Fundies?It is not caused by low IQ, and I know many very civil fundies. It a basic weakness in our species. Once we adopt an idea, we don't like to change. It's like admiting we made a mistake. We were wrong. Via mental connections the idea becomes physically a part of us. It is part of our identity.

A second weakness is the capacity for addiction. This combined with certain addictive features of religion causes extreme rationalization and denial (are they the same?).

We are also very vulnerable to social pressure, and it's not just limited to teens. The warm feeling of belonging, the music, etc.

Combine these and you have something that, once in place, is very hard to pry loose. It's a little like cutting off a hand. How easily can anyone do that?

[BioBeing]

Although atheists do tend to score higher that christians in general on IQ tests, I do not think there is any necessary correlation between fundamentalist versions of Christianity and stupidity. [There may be some extra ignorance, but that is simply a lack of education/experience and a whole 'nother kettle of fish].

An intelligent person who is brought in or buys into the Fundy type of Christianity is simply better able to explain the paradoxes, contradictions and absurdities of their religion better than a non-smart person in the same religion. See, for example, Shemer's Why People Believe Weird Things, specifically the section on why SMART people believe weird things.

[Giant Space Amoeba]

I dont think most of them are stupid at all, i think they are just kidding themselves.

[Nice Squirrel]

Fundamentalist are so smart that their logic is beyond even a squirrels.

[reddhedd]

I'm not stupid, and I was a fundy.
I think Tom Sawyer is right;
Fundies can be as smart as anyone. They just operate off of a different set of premises.

Although I did eventually question my premises.

[funinspace]

Somewhere within human drives/needs, I think many people who become fundamentalists have a higher need for clear truisms/answers. Fuzzy answers bother them, and therefore seek out direct answers/worldviews. "Because God said so", provides a final answer to most any question. And I don't consider them "stupid" in any way. It would be akin to saying most everyone in Iran and Saudi Arabia is stupid.

[angela2]

Somewhere within human drives/needs, I think many people who become fundamentalists have a higher need for clear truisms/answers. Fuzzy answers bother them, and therefore seek out direct answers/worldviews. "Because God said so", provides a final answer to most any question. And I don't consider them "stupid" in any way. It would be akin to saying most everyone in Iran and Saudi Arabia is stupid.
Yes, I agree.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Hm. An interesting distinction. You can have invariably flawed reasoning, and be immune to correction - but simultaneously be highly intelligent.

A bit like taking up a hell of a lot of space, but not actually being fat. You just need to be twisted as fuck.

Aren't humans wonderfully, frustratingly complex beasts?

One of the smartest people I know can be led to diametrically opposite conclusions within 10 minutes of each other, by reasoning first from secular and then from religious opening premises. It's scary.

[TonyBozo]

You know the ol' aphorism "ignorance can be cured with proper education, but stupid is terminal to the bone".

Indoctrinated belief in most of the tenets of religious fundamentalism causes a condition that so strikingly mimics incurable stupidity it's indistinguishable, but through proper education and elimination of the brainwashing elements, miracles do happen.;)

[Plognark]

It's all a matter of what value people assign to things in their lives.

Fundies have been conditioned to assign more value to their religion than anything else. It makes them do and think stupid things.

Doesn't matter if they're political fundies, religious fundies, or whatever. When you put so much stock in something that you can't even let yourself consider the alternatives you're in a truly sorry state.

If it was just a problem of stupid it would be easy to solve, but it's a lot more insidious than that.

[His Noodly Appendage]

It really boils down to conflicting axioms.

Many people are brought up to believe that lying, cheating, stealing and killing are bad things.

Many of these are also brought up to believe that any president of the united states is by definition a great and good man who would never do anything evil.

These people can be both intelligent and humane, yet being merely human, cannot easily undermine their most basic axioms - so instead maintain a contradiction in their minds, going with whichever conclusion follows from their chosen starting point at the time.

[Tigers!]

It really boils down to conflicting axioms.

Many people are brought up to believe that lying, cheating, stealing and killing are bad things.

Many of these are also brought up to believe that any president of the united states is by definition a great and good man who would never do anything evil.

These people can be both intelligent and humane, yet being merely human, cannot easily undermine their most basic axioms - so instead maintain a contradiction in their minds, going with whichever conclusion follows from their chosen starting point at the time.
Does it therefore follow that
'Many people are brought up to believe that lying, cheating, stealing and killing are good things.
Many of these are also brought up to believe that any president of the united states is by definition a great and good man who would never do anything good. '?

[Bonniedundee]

No. I'm around fundamentalist christians most days. Some of them aren't stupid, and some of them are. Some of them aren't offensive and insulting and some of them are.
I debate with them regularly on the internet,it's not perhaps their real personas but alot of them are very insulting and offensive as well as pretty dumb.
For example some fundy tried to show me the democrats and Nazis were the same as they both tried to ban guns(which the nazis didn't even do.).
He then went on to call be a commun-nazi.
And there are many similar people at this site,I've never found other groups of people frankly that stupid.

[Bonniedundee]

Indoctrinated belief in most of the tenets of religious fundamentalism causes a condition that so strikingly mimics incurable stupidity it's indistinguishable, but through proper education and elimination of the brainwashing elements, miracles do happen
Seeing as alot of fundies are very in favour of religious homeschooling they're not gonna get educated soon.
The things fundies say about public schools are also ridiculous and stupid,in one poll I've seen the biggest option by far was that public schools and prisons are the same and that they hate them both.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Does it therefore follow that
'Many people are brought up to believe that lying, cheating, stealing and killing are good things.
Many of these are also brought up to believe that any president of the united states is by definition a great and good man who would never do anything good. '?

What the fuck?

[angela2]

I debate with them regularly on the internet,it's not perhaps their real personas but alot of them are very insulting and offensive as well as pretty dumb.
For example some fundy tried to show me the democrats and Nazis were the same as they both tried to ban guns(which the nazis didn't even do.).
He then went on to call be a commun-nazi.
And there are many similar people at this site,I've never found other groups of people frankly that stupid.
I think people who use internet forums are a self-selected subgroup and can't be said to automatically represent all members of a group.

P.S. That goes for us too. :D

[Amanda Hugginkiss]

I debate with them regularly on the internet

And therein lies the problem, I would guess. If I based my perceptions about a group of people based solely on the ones I encountered in online discussion groups, I think I would have a very one-sided view of them. The vast majority of the intelligent hardcore-Christians (who I know) don't participate in online conversations. Which makes me wonder why that is, since it seems to be counterintuitive? :huh:

[angela2]

And therein lies the problem, I would guess. If I based my perceptions about a group of people based solely on the ones I encountered in online discussion groups, I think I would have a very one-sided view of them. The vast majority of the intelligent hardcore-Christians (who I know) don't participate in online conversations. Which makes me wonder why that is, since it seems to be counterintuitive? :huh:
Oh they have an even better idea. They fund many Christian sites. This gives them more control than any individual would have.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Well, I was a fundy for 17 years and I don't think that becoming an unbeliever made my I.Q. jump. I think what you witness with fundamentalism is a mind virus that inhibits rational thought even though the person may actually be quite smart. Then again, maybe I am still a dumbass. :D

[Jehanne]

Well, I was a fundy for 17 years and I don't think that becoming an unbeliever made my I.Q. jump. I think what you witness with fundamentalism is a mind virus that inhibits rational thought even though the person may actually be quite smart. Then again, maybe I am still a dumbass. :D

People are fundamentalists because they were raised to be fundamentalists.

[funinspace]

People are fundamentalists because they were raised to be fundamentalists.
Another false assumption...It may be predominant, but it ain't 100%.

[Spink]

I don't think it's a case of stupidity. I used to work with one guy who was a computer programmer and one of the sharpest guys I've ever met. He also, however, believed that the world was 6,000 years old, evolution faked and letting kids read Harry Potter was encouraging witchcraft (because witches exist).

His analytical processes when it came to religious matters just based themselves off of a different set of premises than those which I would find rational. He wasn't willing to question those premises and so came up with a lot of really convoluted logical explanations for things that didn't agree with them. For instance, the reason we can see things billions of light years away is because the speed of light used to be faster and has slown down to what it is now.

Fundies can be as smart as anyone. They just operate off of a different set of premises.

I think you are all forgetting the fundamental difference between the brainwashed religious and free thinkers. Religious people operate within the boundaries of what they are told, or taught. Free thinkers are able to question, scrutinize, and dismiss any unfounded claim.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

People are fundamentalists because they were raised to be fundamentalists.Not me... My Dad was an agnostic and my mom is Lutheran... My household as a child was mostly a disfunctional one. I sought security and certainty two things I didn't have at home but fundamentalism gave.

[Jehanne]

Another false assumption...It may be predominant, but it ain't 100%.

In general, people are fundamentalists because they are raised to be fundamentalist. I believe that the sociological data backs me up on this one. This is certainly self-evident for Islamic countries!

[Jehanne]

Not me... My Dad was an agnostic and my mom is Lutheran... My household as a child was mostly a disfunctional one. I sought security and certainty two things I didn't have at home but fundamentalism gave.

My parents were not fundamentalists, either, but they sent my sister and I to fundamentalist churches, which is where I (but not my sister) picked the meme up. "Fear of death" kept me in the fold during college, and contrary to right-wing propaganda, my college education at the University of Iowa was almost completely devoid of any mention of atheism, critical thinking, or the scientific method. The U of I was (and is, by all accounts) a "religiously neutral" academic institution. "Fear of death" keep me in various Christian sects throughout my college education and loneliness, also. I was not a member of a fraternity (having been rejected by the sole fraternity that I applied to), so church was an excellent place to meet young women. And, as I was attracted to women with long hair who like to wear long, feminine skirts (which is still the case), conservative, fundamentalist churches were the place to be!

[Jedi Mind Trick]

^
|
|
|

My mom was the religious anchor in the family. She is Missouri Synod Lutheran, so I guess you could call that fundamentalist but I never got a whiff of it until I sought out the fundamentalists that latter influenced me.

[Tigers!]

I think you are all forgetting the fundamental difference between the brainwashed religious and free thinkers. Religious people operate within the boundaries of what they are told, or taught. Free thinkers are able to question, scrutinize, and dismiss any unfounded claim.
Including any claims of free thinking?

[Tigers!]

In general, people are fundamentalists because they are raised to be fundamentalist. I believe that the sociological data backs me up on this one. This is certainly self-evident for Islamic countries!
So children raised in atheists home are raised to be atheists? So they are brainwashed into atheism are they?

[Magus55]

Well, I was a fundy for 17 years and I don't think that becoming an unbeliever made my I.Q. jump. I think what you witness with fundamentalism is a mind virus that inhibits rational thought even though the person may actually be quite smart. Then again, maybe I am still a dumbass. :D
This is how I felt after being a fundy for 3 years. I consider myself to be pretty smart, but as a creationist and literalist, I looked at everything that conflicted with my views ( evolution) for example, and tossed it aside, without bothering to really study it. I went evolutionist, creationist, theistic evolutionist.

[Bonniedundee]

And therein lies the problem, I would guess. If I based my perceptions about a group of people based solely on the ones I encountered in online discussion groups, I think I would have a very one-sided view of them. The vast majority of the intelligent hardcore-Christians (who I know) don't participate in online conversations. Which makes me wonder why that is, since it seems to be counterintuitive?
You're probably right,but the stupidity of the arguments they regularly put forward is amazing.

[WishboneDawn]

I think you are all forgetting the fundamental difference between the brainwashed religious and free thinkers. Religious people operate within the boundaries of what they are told, or taught. Free thinkers are able to question, scrutinize, and dismiss any unfounded claim.

I just watched a documentary where a fundamentalist christian and gay pastor spent a lot of time together getting to know one another and exploring the idea of the role of gay people in the christian church. The fundamentalist took huge steps outside his boundaries to explore the issue. It was an eye opener.

I think there's a lot of conceit behind the idea of free thinkers and I'm getting less impressed with how it gets used. Often it seems to mean nothing more then, 'us, not them.'

[His Noodly Appendage]

wbd: spend a day at Rapture Ready, then come back and say that again. With a straight face.

[WishboneDawn]

wbd: spend a day at Rapture Ready, then come back and say that again. With a straight face.

Is it good form to use the board as an indication of what all fundies might be like?

[Tao of Pooh]

Q: Why are there no dumb brunettes?

A: Peroxide.

Um, shouldn't that be:
"Why are there some smart blondes?"
Peroxide.

But what do I know? I've been both:D



Certain elements of human logic have to be left behind when considering matters of religion.

[Tao of Pooh]

People rarely notice their own irony. :D

Ooooh, that was not nice! (Kinda funny, but not nice;) ) I like WishboneDawn.



Certain elements of human logic have to left behind when considering matters of religion.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

This is how I felt after being a fundy for 3 years. I consider myself to be pretty smart, but as a creationist and literalist, I looked at everything that conflicted with my views ( evolution) for example, and tossed it aside, without bothering to really study it. I went evolutionist, creationist, theistic evolutionist.

Were you ever partly... or secretly... or subconsciously... convinced of evolution when you were a YEC? I know that for me, deep down I knew it made sense. I even remember telling my pastor that I didn't think that scientists were just pulling this stuff out of their asses.

[Jehanne]

So children raised in atheists home are raised to be atheists? So they are brainwashed into atheism are they?

In some cases, I would say that this is true. However, all the atheists whom I have ever met are open-mind people, ready to consider any and all arguments. I have four kids, and I have encouraged them, unlike Christian parents, to consider all points of view on any issue!

[Magus55]

Were you ever partly... or secretly... or subconsciously... convinced of evolution when you were a YEC? I know that for me, deep down I knew it made sense. I even remember telling my pastor that I didn't think that scientists were just pulling this stuff out of their asses.
I think so. I had to take an evolution and ecology class for my major when I was a YEC. I went in the class starting with the bias that it all must be wrong because it disagrees with the YEC interpretation. I think I still struggled with it while sitting through the class. I had grown up accepting evolution, and just dismissing it to support a faulty interpretation wasn't easy to do. In hindsight, I probably would have enjoyed the class better had I not gone in with such preconceived biases.

[Spink]

Is it good form to use the board as an indication of what all fundies might be like?

But aren't all fundies alike? Aren't they all like the "agents" out of the movie "The Matrix"? They appear by seemingly claiming the body of a normal acting person, and then proceed in efforts to eliminate anything that poses a threat to the stability of their programed fantasy prison.
I say prison but, that may be the wrong word. There was that one guy who had been out of the matrix for years that wanted back in because it was dark and dreary on the outside. Even though he knew it was fantasy, he wanted to live in peace and not fight the fundies anymore; re-enter the fold if you will. I wonder how many of the self-proclaimed fundies just gave up, and got plugged back in.

[WishboneDawn]

In some cases, I would say that this is true. However, all the atheists whom I have ever met are open-mind people, ready to consider any and all arguments. I have four kids, and I have encouraged them, unlike Christian parents, to consider all points of view on any issue!

Yes, because as a christian parent I am forever ramming christianity down my children's throats and denying that there are any other viewpoints out there.

:rolleyes:

[WishboneDawn]

Ooooh, that was not nice! (Kinda funny, but not nice;) ) I like WishboneDawn.


:confused: I sortta thought she was agreeing with me with that comment (though kindly not pointing out my bad spelling).

[Jehanne]

Yes, because as a christian parent I am forever ramming christianity down my children's throats and denying that there are any other viewpoints out there.

:rolleyes:

How about showing them The God Who Wasn't There:

http://www.thegodmovie.com/

Or, how about David Mills' free interview:

http://www.davidmills.net/

[WishboneDawn]

How about showing them The God Who Wasn't There:

http://www.thegodmovie.com/

Or, how about David Mills' free interview:

http://www.davidmills.net/

I haven't watched that myself yet! Would a bright 8 year old enjoy it?

My husband's an atheist so we've certainly discussed it but I should say that at this point I'm less interested in material that seeks to disprove christianity then stuff that shows the positive aspect of secular humanism and atheism. Ironically, my husband doesn't have much to say about atheism so I'm going to be the one that introduces it to the kids as an option and alternative. I don't know about my son but I can see my daughter embracing it down the road. She believes in God now but I think it's more a default position for her then a thoughtful belief.

[Jehanne]

I haven't watched that myself yet! Would a bright 8 year old enjoy it?

Maybe. It shows scenes from Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ, so it should be regarded as being "R-rated" (not sure what that would be in Canada.)

IMy husband's an atheist so we've certainly discussed it but I should say that at this point I'm less interested in material that seeks to disprove christianity then stuff that shows the positive aspect of secular humanism and atheism. Ironically, my husband doesn't have much to say about atheism so I'm going to be the one that introduces it to the kids as an option and alternative. I don't know about my son but I can see my daughter embracing it down the road. She believes in God now but I think it's more a default position for her then a thoughtful belief.

Have them listen to Mills' interview, then. It's only 1 hour, 13 minutes long.

[wiccan windwalker]

love,compassion, forgiveness, ...seems to me the more of these qualtiies a person has the more it validates their belief system, and vice versa

[The Arbiter]

More often than not, people have love, compassion and forgiveness in spite of their belief system.