Malachi151
September 18, 2006, 08:06 AM
This thread was prompted by one in the Biblical criticism forum, where it was mentioned:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3762785#post3762785
However, only parts of the Aegyptiaca have survived, including a summary or epitome of its contents. But it goes back to the pharaoh Wikipedia reference-linkMenes of the First Dynasty, around 3000 BCE, though it states that before Menes, Egypt had been ruled by various gods and demigods.
I recently saw some show on the Discovery Channel that was some kind of reenactment of early archaic human group, like during the Ice Age. They portrayed the "origin of religion" as these Ice Age people worshiping the sun, which I thought was not only absurd, but irresponsible.
There is no indication that ice age people worshiped the sun, or that they had any kind of formal religion, or that they had any concept of a transcendent god or gods.
I tend to think, as is evidenced in the quote above, that god belief originated with the worship of human leaders.
I think that there is confusion between "superstition", "religion", and "worship".
"Superstition" is not a form of religion an does not require worship.
I don't think that there is anything that concretely defines "superstition". What makes a superstition a superstition is whether or not the belief is true, but there isn't anything inherent in the belief itself that makes it superstitious.
What I mean is that if I believe that getting up in the morning and stretching and going off my self to collect my thoughts will help me in the hunt, and it does indeed help me in the hunt, then, its not a superstition. If I believe this and it doesn't help me, then it is a superstition.
On a bigger scale, if I believe that doing some kind of ritual with some old bones will help me, and it really doesn't, then that's a more obvious superstition, etc.
So, at any rate, privative people were certainly superstitious, meaning that they associated causes and effects that were not real. This was not a "system of belief", however, it was just confusion.
Religion, on the other hand, I would contend is a system of belief that has structure and objectives.
What I would say is that superstitious proceeded god belief, and god belief preceded religion, and god belief gave rise to religion.
The first "gods" were probably super Alpha males who led their people in very productive ways, whose skills and intelligence far surpassed the other people to the degree that the other people couldn't comprehend their abilities and due to the fortune that they acquired from the leadership of the leader (successful hunts, conquering other tribes, staying safe, gaining new land, having healthy children, surviving storms, etc.) their superstition attributed these fortunes to a "superhuman" belief in the leader.
Likewise, as these leaders demanded greater obedience in order to be successful, there were challenges to leadership, etc., and the people's superstition made them afraid that if someone in the group angered the leader or messed him up in some way, that they would lose their fortunes, so there was great social pressure to protect and obey the leader, to the point of hating and ostracizing those that didn't fall in line.
Thus a system of worship and devotion developed with moral codes related to "obeying god".
Then, from this point, the problem was that these god beliefs were tied into mortal people, which led to instability, so then the view probably evolved that when these leaders died they continued to rule from the grave, because their powers were so awesome, and because people just couldn't let go of the emotional attachment and devotion that had been developed due to the religion.
So, at this point the religious systems evolved to transcend the mortal realm and went into the ethereal real, though probably still attached to the memories of once living people, as is indicated very strongly in Egyptian lore.
From this point, once religion no longer focused on living human beings, but increasingly worshiped being that you couldn't see, then god belief began to branch out into all kinds of things, such as sun worship, unseen gods, etc., but I certainly don't think that the idea of "worship of a heavenly god" just originated on its own from no social context.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3762785#post3762785
However, only parts of the Aegyptiaca have survived, including a summary or epitome of its contents. But it goes back to the pharaoh Wikipedia reference-linkMenes of the First Dynasty, around 3000 BCE, though it states that before Menes, Egypt had been ruled by various gods and demigods.
I recently saw some show on the Discovery Channel that was some kind of reenactment of early archaic human group, like during the Ice Age. They portrayed the "origin of religion" as these Ice Age people worshiping the sun, which I thought was not only absurd, but irresponsible.
There is no indication that ice age people worshiped the sun, or that they had any kind of formal religion, or that they had any concept of a transcendent god or gods.
I tend to think, as is evidenced in the quote above, that god belief originated with the worship of human leaders.
I think that there is confusion between "superstition", "religion", and "worship".
"Superstition" is not a form of religion an does not require worship.
I don't think that there is anything that concretely defines "superstition". What makes a superstition a superstition is whether or not the belief is true, but there isn't anything inherent in the belief itself that makes it superstitious.
What I mean is that if I believe that getting up in the morning and stretching and going off my self to collect my thoughts will help me in the hunt, and it does indeed help me in the hunt, then, its not a superstition. If I believe this and it doesn't help me, then it is a superstition.
On a bigger scale, if I believe that doing some kind of ritual with some old bones will help me, and it really doesn't, then that's a more obvious superstition, etc.
So, at any rate, privative people were certainly superstitious, meaning that they associated causes and effects that were not real. This was not a "system of belief", however, it was just confusion.
Religion, on the other hand, I would contend is a system of belief that has structure and objectives.
What I would say is that superstitious proceeded god belief, and god belief preceded religion, and god belief gave rise to religion.
The first "gods" were probably super Alpha males who led their people in very productive ways, whose skills and intelligence far surpassed the other people to the degree that the other people couldn't comprehend their abilities and due to the fortune that they acquired from the leadership of the leader (successful hunts, conquering other tribes, staying safe, gaining new land, having healthy children, surviving storms, etc.) their superstition attributed these fortunes to a "superhuman" belief in the leader.
Likewise, as these leaders demanded greater obedience in order to be successful, there were challenges to leadership, etc., and the people's superstition made them afraid that if someone in the group angered the leader or messed him up in some way, that they would lose their fortunes, so there was great social pressure to protect and obey the leader, to the point of hating and ostracizing those that didn't fall in line.
Thus a system of worship and devotion developed with moral codes related to "obeying god".
Then, from this point, the problem was that these god beliefs were tied into mortal people, which led to instability, so then the view probably evolved that when these leaders died they continued to rule from the grave, because their powers were so awesome, and because people just couldn't let go of the emotional attachment and devotion that had been developed due to the religion.
So, at this point the religious systems evolved to transcend the mortal realm and went into the ethereal real, though probably still attached to the memories of once living people, as is indicated very strongly in Egyptian lore.
From this point, once religion no longer focused on living human beings, but increasingly worshiped being that you couldn't see, then god belief began to branch out into all kinds of things, such as sun worship, unseen gods, etc., but I certainly don't think that the idea of "worship of a heavenly god" just originated on its own from no social context.