One less God than you...?

[RaveyDavey]

A frequent explanatory statement that I read can be used to explain to Christians (or other mono-deists) what an Atheist is: Someone who just disbelieves one less god then them... the reasons that Christians disbelieve those other gods are commonly the same reasons Atheists disbelieve a Christian God.

However...

The first and therefore main commandment (?) is : "I am the Lord your God... Thou shalt have no other gods before me..."

This raises a couple of questions for me:

Is infact the disbelief of other Gods by Christians actually not to do with free thinking on their part at all (or a lack of evidence)... but actually just a blind obedience to their particular God? Is this explanatory comment above provided by Atheists actually not worth saying?

Do you think that if irrefutable evidence was offered for say a Muslim God that would convince all of us Atheists, would there still be blinded Christians 'refusing' to believe this evidence since they have been ordered to? (But then again you could say they are already blind to the evidence of Evolution! ;) )

Interesting that the commandment is that "Thou shalt have no other Gods BEFORE me"... ie giving permission to have a multi-god belief that people have talked about in OT times?

Christians welcome to answer the questions too!! :)

RD

[Alethias]

Excellent questions. Since it has more to do with why people believe than whether or not god exists, I'm shipping it from EoG to GRD.

Alethias,
Moderator of EoG & GRD

[Worldtraveller]

First of all, regardless of teh actual wording of the commandment, most xians (everyone I've ever met or even heard of) believe that it simply says thou shalt have no other gods. (You don't expect them to actually read their holy book, do you? :Cheeky:)

All other gods are false gods (aka myths) to xians.

There may be a few exceptions (I think our own ojuice is one), but they are certainly rare. Considering the OT specifically names several gods (Mammon?), I would think it is ok to believe in them, and even worship them, as long as Yaweh/Jehovah gets top billing.

That has always been my take on it, but I don't remember how my xian friends answer that.

Cheers,
Lane

[Vitalstatistix]

Is infact the disbelief of other Gods by Christians actually not to do with free thinking on their part at all (or a lack of evidence)... but actually just a blind obedience to their particular God? Is this explanatory comment above provided by Atheists actually not worth saying?well atheism for whatever reason is still atheism, just going by the definition.
Do you think that if irrefutable evidence was offered for say a Muslim God that would convince all of us Atheists, would there still be blinded Christians 'refusing' to believe this evidence since they have been ordered to? (But then again you could say they are already blind to the evidence of Evolution! ;) )yeah I think we both know how that would go.

[EricK]

I have always thought that that commandment (thou shall have no other gods before me) is admitting that the other gods exist. And it is not the only place which leaves one with that impression. Indeed, the phrase "I am The Lord, your God" is also such an admission.

[Ojuice5001]

A frequent explanatory statement that I read can be used to explain to Christians (or other mono-deists) what an Atheist is: Someone who just disbelieves one less god then them... the reasons that Christians disbelieve those other gods are commonly the same reasons Atheists disbelieve a Christian God.

However...

The first and therefore main commandment (?) is : "I am the Lord your God... Thou shalt have no other gods before me..."

This raises a couple of questions for me:

Is infact the disbelief of other Gods by Christians actually not to do with free thinking on their part at all (or a lack of evidence)... but actually just a blind obedience to their particular God? Is this explanatory comment above provided by Atheists actually not worth saying?

I think most Christians haven't considered the existence of other gods in any way. This means it's not a matter of either free thinking or obedience; both of those alternatives presuppose that the Christian in question has seriously considered the question.

So I think it's debatable whether Christians really do disbelieve in Jupiter for the same reason as atheists disbelieve in both Yahweh and Jupiter. But even if that second, stronger formulation ("the same reasons") is inaccurate, the first formulation ("one fewer god") can be a good way to stimulate the imagination of someone unfamiliar with atheism.

Do you think that if irrefutable evidence was offered for say a Muslim God that would convince all of us Atheists, would there still be blinded Christians 'refusing' to believe this evidence since they have been ordered to? (But then again you could say they are already blind to the evidence of Evolution! ;) )

Probably a few, but not a majority. Just as only a minority of Christians deny evolution rather than having theological views that accomodate it.

But I have no doubt that there would be some. After all, the Pat Robertson types have made a lot of money from refusing to bow the knee to anything that goes against their own interpretation of Christianity. The rich televangelists are powerful enough to resist such a turn of events.

Come to think of it, I've got enough of the true believer in me to do something similar. My religion is a form of pagan polytheism, not any kind of Christianity. After all, I already believe that Allah exists--as one limitied god among many others, not as the one true god. So I would probably try to fit this "irrefutable evidence" for Allah into my existing polytheistic framework, rather than immediately becoming a believer in the barbaric theology taught by Islam.

Interesting that the commandment is that "Thou shalt have no other Gods BEFORE me"... ie giving permission to have a multi-god belief that people have talked about in OT times?


Not "giving" permission...but it certainly makes sense to think that it doesn't take that permission away. And of course, we must draw the distinction between belief and worship. Most Christians interpret the First Commandment as forbidding belief in the other gods. But of course, the word "have" in this context means "worship," not "believe in the existence of." Therefore the Commandment says nothing about whether the other gods are real beings.

[BigJim]

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Sounds plural to me.

[Russell's Teapot]

I think xians explain that away by saying god was using the royal first person plural form. They may be right, but I would tend to disagree.

[funinspace]

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Sounds plural to me.
They pull out the Trinity card (3 in 1 deal); sometimes an angelic audience with no voting rights is also tossed in. And voila, the verse survives.

[RaveyDavey]

Xians - Twisting words? Never!

RD

[Kassiana]

That argument doesn't tend to work on us polytheists. We aren't the most numerous kind of theist in the US, but there are a few of us out there.

[RaveyDavey]

Thou shalt have no other gods before me..."


Or maybe this means that you can believe in lots of Gods AFTER believing in a Christian god...

So Sunday was Christian god... today was Allah... maybe I go for FSM tomorrow?!

RD

[Dean Anderson]

Is infact the disbelief of other Gods by Christians actually not to do with free thinking on their part at all (or a lack of evidence)... but actually just a blind obedience to their particular God? Is this explanatory comment above provided by Atheists actually not worth saying?

Whenever I've asked Christians on this board why they don't (for example) believe in Thor, I've almost never got the answer that they have looked into the evidence for his existence and found it lacking.

I have pretty much always got the answer that the reason they don't believe in other gods is because they do believe in their God, and they believe that their God has told them that no other Gods exist. Of course, the Bible says no such thing - it is full of other gods - but they are going by Christian tradition, not the Bible.

That's why I don't like the "I simply believe in one less god than you" statement. It sounds good to us, but to a Christian it is generally meaninglesss.

[Eldarion Lathria]

A fundy I know says these other gods are 'really' demons, or Satan in disguise. Yes, she believes people who don't believe in Satan 'really' worship him. She got into it with an Asatruar friend who said that the Hebrew god is really a giant and she worships a false god.

Eldarion Lathria

[Dean Anderson]

I think xians explain that away by saying god was using the royal first person plural form. They may be right, but I would tend to disagree.

That's not quite the case.

From what I have been able to learn of Hebrew, the word "Elohim" - literally "lords" or "gods" - is like the English word "trousers" or "scissors" in that it always uses plural grammar regardless of the number of gods being discussed.

For example:

The car is in the garage. <-- We can see that this refers to a single car.
The cars are in the garage. <-- We can see that this refers to multiple cars.

The scissors are on the shelf. <-- This could be talking about one pair of scissors or multiple pairs. We can't tell which without further context.

So some of the uses of Elohim and associated verb forms in the Hebrew Bible are clearly referring to multiple gods when you look at the context. Others are clearly referring to a single god when you look at the context. Still others are ambiguous and could be referring to either because the context is not clear.

But assuming that all uses of "Elohim" refer to multiple gods is as big a mistake as assuming that they all refer just to a single god.

[Jobar]

It's seemed to me, when I use the 'one fewer gods' gambit, that most Christians just don't grok. I think it has something to do with their use of the generic term, god, as the very name of their deity- God. (I've been told that 'Jehovah' or 'Yahweh' is only the name of the Father aspect of God.)

So for many Christians, the 'one fewer gods' line does not a lot of good. However, I've never seen a Christian who could give any sort of a counter to it, so if you add it in with other reasons for unbelief, it never hurts. Check out An Interesting Problem (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=381085#post381085), a letter I wrote to a local paper back in 2002.

[Ojuice5001]

Or maybe this means that you can believe in lots of Gods AFTER believing in a Christian god...

Remember that "have" doesn't mean "believe in" anyway! It means "worship."

So there is even a legitimate interpretation that allows worshipping the other gods. As long as you worship Yahweh first and foremost, that is. I mean, I wouldn't try presenting this interpretation as factually correct, but it makes good material for debating.

[BigJim]

So for many Christians, the 'one fewer gods' line does not a lot of good. However, I've never seen a Christian who could give any sort of a counter to it, so if you add it in with other reasons for unbelief, it never hurts.

The best answers I've heard are:

The gods of other religions do exist, however, they aren't realy gods, mearly angels/other supernatural beings
Other societies just have a different interpretation of the One True God. He appears to them in a way that is more acceptable for their soceity, so Buddah, Allah, Jehovah, Jesus, Vishnu, etc. all really represent the One True God, and every religion is actually right.

[Overkill]

That second reason just doesn't fly. Sure, maybe for the masculine deities but even then huge problems are encountered with the belief system of the religion. Even if it were permissable to pay homage to gods from other religions I just don't see how it would be possible without making the religion absolutely incoherent.