Dispute over chaplains' prayers holds up military appropriation bill

[Toto]

Proposal on Military Chaplains and Prayer Holds Up Bill (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/washington/19chaplains.html?ref=washington)

A bill that sets the Pentagon’s spending levels is being held up by controversy over a provision that would allow military chaplains to offer sectarian prayers at nondenominational military events.

The provision, which is being pushed by Representative Duncan Hunter, Republican of California, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, says “chaplains in each of the military services would have the prerogative to pray according to the dictates of their own conscience.” The Senate version of the spending bill, the National Defense Authorization Act, has no such language.

Chaplains can pray according to the traditions of their faith at worship services, where attendance is voluntary. But they are also called upon to offer prayers at mandatory functions, like changes of command, banquets and speeches.

I'm not sure where I would stand on this. The options are either a prayer to Jesus or a prayer to a generic unspecified "God." This is a good argument for abolishing those prayers at mandatory functions, I would think.

[Scifinerdgrl]

I'd like to see what would happen if a Satan worshipper or Unitarian said a sectarian prayer at a banquet.

[Dick Springer]

I like seeing fights like this one. The extremists are thereby alienating the moderates and contributing to there own loss of power. Their opponents cannot be denounced as godless atheists.

Of course, the moderate position still excludes us from the American consensus. That fight can be phase 2.

[Jaecp]

Christians already use the generic god as an equal word to jesus or jehovah or whatnot.

When a chaplain prays to god on the ship, he is talking about the christian god. We dont have any other chaplains but 4 pros and a catholic.

Not one christian thinks he's praying to "god in general who could be any faith"

I doubt 1 in 50 christians on board my boat even know what "non-denominational deism" is supposed to be.

This is kinda exemplified when they refer to god as "the lord" which is a pretty christian thing.

There was an ongoing joke on the bridge about people holding satanic worship services on board and it would have an intercom announcement. Or Them explaining religious tolerance with cookies. While it would be possible to do that, people would be lynched. I saw a punishment log once where the offenders response was "Blah blah blah fails to compare to the glory that awaits us all in the end" after sleeping on watch.

[cgordon]

I had a very interesting e-mail from one of our former (one of my fave) chaplains here recently. He's now back in the US at a training base and whilst here, he and I developed a strong friendship and had long talks about faith, knowledge, spirit, rational and critical thought, etc.

His new commander (O7 type) played the 'no atheists in foxholes' card right after Bill arrived on post. Bill called him aside, politely informed him he was full of shite and explained that he, as a chaplain, knew and supported more than one atheist who'd been in foxholes and would explain to the commander in detail, if necessary, why that statement was utter BS.

I love Bill. He's Got It. And is one of the Very Best Xians I have ever known.

Hope for that faith lies in folks like Bill and the scant handful of thinking, progressive, rational Christians who realize that mythology and philosophy are not mutually exclusive but also realize that myth can and will pervert the message if taken literally.

cg

[Guido]

generic prayer?
Oh Unknowable who art mercifull, we thank thee for the napalm we are going to drop on those who attack the American way of life

[Toto]

Update:

Invoking God's Blessing -- but Whose God? (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-beliefs7oct07,1,797981.story)

Perhaps the military chaplains should borrow a line from Kinky Friedman - may the god of your choice bless you.

"We believe if you have a God, you've got to name it. It is disrespectful to our deity, Christ, to not mention his name in prayer," said Billy Baugham, a retired Army chaplain who is executive director of the International Conference of Evangelical Chaplain Endorsers, a group based in Greenville, S.C.

...

Land, Baugham and others supported a House version of a defense appropriations bill that stated: "Each chaplain shall have the prerogative to pray according to the dictates of the chaplain's own conscience, except as must be limited by military necessity, with any such limitation being imposed in the least restrictive manner feasible."

...

Pentagon officials, however, opposed the proposal, as did the major associations of military chaplains.

The Rev. Herman Keizer Jr., chairman of the National Conference on Ministry to the Armed Forces, described the House item as "dangerous and really unnecessary." Keizer, a retired Army chaplain who served in Vietnam, said that some people were backing it because they "can't work in a pluralistic setting."

The conflict between the House and Senate held up the military appropriations bill, until the House language was dropped. But the bill sent to the president for signing recommends that the current explicit requirement for non-denominational prayer be dropped in favor of past language, which had the same intent but was less explicit, guaranteeing further confusion on all fronts.

[sbaii]

Jesus said to pray in secret. They should follow his teaching.

[Jaecp]

I don't have any reason to like my ships chaplains. During our indoc course, the leading chaplain said atheists were arrogant and wanted to take power from god.

Like sbaii is sayin, pray on your own time. I don't want some "non-denominational prayer" with a wink-wink traded between my commander and the chaplain that they are still praying to jesus. I'm still elated that they don't do prayer at taps (bed time) while in port.

Guido, yeah, its even more stupid than what your trying to make fun of. Most of the time, it isn't even a prayer, but some sort of story.

[Pavlov's Dog]

Get rid of prayers all together. If they want to pray, let them do it on their own and in private.

[travc]

The tradition of military chaplins, as I understand it, is a pretty good one. And yes, the Xian ones mean the Christian god when they say "God", but the fact that they don't invoke Jesus or Mary or whatever is a symbol to people of other faiths. Symbols matter, especially in the military. I've only known one chaplin, but he was very conscious of signalling to all his unit that he was there for all of them. (I knew him personally and chatted about this topic, I was never in the military BTW.)

The "non-denominational" part seems pretty important actually. Even if it is just a symbol.

Oh, and I have no problem with the prayer thing. Praying, even if you don't believe in god, is another sort of symbol. When led appropriately, it can be all about comfort, humility, and solidarity... even if you don't buy the supernatural BS.

[benjdm]

I don't have any reason to like my ships chaplains. During our indoc course, the leading chaplain said atheists were arrogant and wanted to take power from god.
Interesting. When I went through, I can't recall any chaplains saying anything like this. Of course there are no chaplains on submarines and I tended to tune out chaplains pretty quickly.

[christ-on-a-stick]

I figured there would be a thread about this! I got a call not two minutes ago from the Los Angeles Times saying that my letter to the editor was being considered for publication tomorrow. So if you see a letter by "L. Davi" tomorrow, it's me! :)

[christ-on-a-stick]

harumph.... they published it but snipped the best parts! I guess it was a little bit too long.