Ugh. Dr. Dino in my science class

[Gooch's dad]

No, Kent Hovind isn't trying to make a personal appearance, thank dog. But some kid who sits in the front row of my Physical Science/pre-Physics class brought up the issue last week.

Before class, during the 5 minute passing period, the boy piped up with "Hey, I saw a cool video over the weekend, it proves evolution wrong!" I said it certainly isn't by a scientist, and he said "oh, it *is*, the guy taught science in middle school for 10 years!"

I told him about how Hovind is a known fraud, who has no actual scientific credibility at all, and how evolution is a solid and well-accepted scientific theory. Class was starting, so I had to move on.

I brought it up again yesterday before class, and the kid brought up the silliness about polystrata fossils--trees that seem to have grown through multiple layers of sedimentation. I told him that we can see the same thing happening in the Black Sea today--deep layers of the sea are often lacking in oxygen, and trees that were flooded thousands of years ago are still standing there, slowing being covered up with sediments.

Then I pointed out how evolution is taught at every accredited Christian university in the country--along with old-earth geology. He asked "don't some of them teach creation science?" and I replied that no, none of them do. Another student wanted to find out what we were talking about, so I did a brief summary about the issue, then began my regular class topic.

Here's the problem--the kid apparently got the tape from his dad. I'm probably going to have to deal with this kid's dad in a parent-teacher conference in a few months. This could get very interesting.

The class is really supposed to be about physics, not about evolution. Still, I will insist to any parent that these issues are deeply relevant to the question "what is science?".

Most of the class just doesn't seem to care about the issue, but I may have a day where I spend part of the class discussing the issue of how science operates, and what constitutes good science. I will be quite careful to

a) never let on that I'm atheist--if asked, I'll insist that my religious views are personal and private.

b) never come across as anti-Christian. The tactic of pointing out all the conservative Christian colleges (like Baylor Baptist) who teach evolution seems like a good tactic in this respect.

I'll keep you all updated as this progresses. It pisses me off that Hovind gets any attention at all, especially here in Madison.

[Hawkeye]

"Hey, I saw a cool video over the weekend, it proves evolution wrong!"

You can't argue with these kind of arguments. :rolleyes: It reminds me of a thread on another board awhile ago where people got seriously impressed and started to believe in the Expanding Earth Theory based on that comic illustrator's (forgot his name) nicely animated video clips.

[Hyndis]

"Hey, I saw a cool video over the weekend, it proves evolution wrong!"

You can't argue with these kind of arguments. :rolleyes: It reminds me of a thread on another board awhile ago where people got seriously impressed and started to believe in the Expanding Earth Theory based on that comic illustrator's (forgot his name) nicely animated video clips.

Scott Adams wrote up something about that, if I recall. Of course it was all purely a joke. Its sad if people took it seriously.

[Mace]

What's even sadder is the fact that Gooch's dad can't let on he's an atheist.

[Gooch's dad]

That's true, Mace. I hadn't really minded that, until I realized that if I were a teacher in New Zealand or most of western Europe, few parents would freak out to find that their child's teacher is an atheist.

But I do plan on keeping that to myself, to avoid a huge ruckus.

[Aegeri]

It's true, nobody would care if you're an atheist here and in fact our Prime Minister is an atheist [IIRC]. The irony of course there is she was invited to be a keynote speaker at a conference for faith in the pacific islands or something.

Not that in New Zealand you would probably encounter a creationist student like that anyway.

[GenesisNemesis]

Tell that kid and his dad to go to http://www.kent-hovind.com

That's pretty much the site that made me skeptical about the Supernatural, when I was trying to find "myself". The internet can take you places you've never expected!

[bluesky]

Before class, during the 5 minute passing period, the boy piped up with "Hey, I saw a cool video over the weekend, it proves evolution wrong!" I said it certainly isn't by a scientist, and he said "oh, it *is*, the guy taught science in middle school for 10 years!"
*laugh!* An easy way to put an end to that (and make the kid learn something in the process)-- is to have him write a report on a claim he heard that 'proved evolution wrong.' Tell him to pick one claim he found convincing, and convince you. Maybe make the whole class write a report on a 'current event in science' or something.

Or if youre not that mean, just ask him to talk with you about it after class, if hes interested. You can look up Hovind biography, why hes in trouble now, talk about what real scientists do, that sort of thing. Could be fun!

[Magus55]

It's true, nobody would care if you're an atheist here and in fact our Prime Minister is an atheist [IIRC]. The irony of course there is she was invited to be a keynote speaker at a conference for faith in the pacific islands or something.

Not that in New Zealand you would probably encounter a creationist student like that anyway.
I've heard New Zealand has some of the most civil liberties of any country in the world. I've become obsessed with the place. I want to visit or live there so bad (although the Taupo volcano makes me nervous :Cheeky: )

To Gooch's dad, did you tell the kid Hovind isn't even a doctor and is likely to end up in prison? It isn't like the guy is credible even outside his lack of science knowledge.

[Random Evil Guy]

. I will be quite careful to

a) never let on that I'm atheist--if asked, I'll insist that my religious views are personal and private.


why? what the hell does that have to do with anything? if you're an atheist, then say you're an atheist.

[Gooch's dad]

I did tell the kid that Hovind has absolutely no scientific credibility at all. I didn't mention his legal troubles, although I think I will, next time we talk.

I like that kent-hovind site, that's a good summary. I think I will turn it into a class discussion at some point---the idea that Hovind was a teacher, I'm a teacher--why should the kids believe me over Hovind? The fact is, they shouldn't believe me just because I say so.

They should learn critical thinking. Which is going to be a tough sell with this class, these are mostly not college-bound kids. There's actually a huge range in this class, from incredibly bright kids, to kids who can barely do any math at all.

[Gooch's dad]

why? what the hell does that have to do with anything? if you're an atheist, then say you're an atheist.

Because, to the kid's father or mother, whomever had the Hovind tape lying around, the fact that I'm an atheist will remove all of my credibility in the eyes of that parent.

The point is that Hovind is seen as wrong by any good scientist, not just atheist scientists.

[RBH]

As the husband of a 35-year high school teacher in a smallish conservative school district in rural Ohio, I'll recommend that folks who haven't been in a classroom in the more conservative parts of the United States be a little less flamboyant in their recommendations for what Gooch's dad might do. We had a creationist flareup in this district a few years ago, and while the science teachers and administration (curriculum supervisor and superintendent) and the board of education defended good science very well and the flareup was damped down, unthinking confrontation can be very destructive to both individuals and the community of which they're part.

RBH

[Djugashvillain]

Certain parts of the United States are starting to sound like weird parallel dimensions to me.

[Thief of Time]

"Hey, I saw a cool video over the weekend, it proves evolution wrong!"
and you beleive everything you see on tv/video?


Not that in New Zealand you would probably encounter a creationist student like that anyway.
There's a guy in my Chem lectures who, during the organic chemistry section on enzymes, said something to the lecturer about evolution being only a theory.
I'm not sure what this had to do with NADH and NADPH, but I suppose he had to put in his 2c.
2nd year University chem, by the way. Preparation for honours class.

[ninewands]

I did tell the kid that Hovind has absolutely no scientific credibility at all. I didn't mention his legal troubles, although I think I will, next time we talk.

I like that kent-hovind site, that's a good summary. I think I will turn it into a class discussion at some point---the idea that Hovind was a teacher, I'm a teacher--why should the kids believe me over Hovind? The fact is, they shouldn't believe me just because I say so.

They should learn critical thinking. Which is going to be a tough sell with this class, these are mostly not college-bound kids. There's actually a huge range in this class, from incredibly bright kids, to kids who can barely do any math at all.
Get yourself a copy of Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345409469/thesecularweb/)," learn about the Baloney Detection Kit and then teach the kids about it. You might also show them how to evaluate ideas and "theories" using the Crackpot Index (http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html). I don't know how much it will help you teach them science, but it'll probably be the most valuable gift you could give them.

[Jet Black]

Most of the class just doesn't seem to care about the issue, but I may have a day where I spend part of the class discussing the issue of how science operates, and what constitutes good science. I will be quite careful to



I think this is absolutely critical. The way I see it is that the majority of children once they grow up and leave school will never do any science again. knowing what-reacts-with-what, or how to calculate the capacitance of two parallel metal plates isn't going to be very useful to them. However an understanding of what science is, and how it works, and what scientists say will help them when they hear the various media reports and so on about various issues, because then they will be able to see past media sensationalism and actually understand the sorts of things that are going through scientists' heads. I think this aspect is a massively undertaught part of science in schools.

[Jet Black]

I did tell the kid that Hovind has absolutely no scientific credibility at all. I didn't mention his legal troubles, although I think I will, next time we talk.

I like that kent-hovind site, that's a good summary. I think I will turn it into a class discussion at some point---the idea that Hovind was a teacher, I'm a teacher--why should the kids believe me over Hovind? The fact is, they shouldn't believe me just because I say so.

They should learn critical thinking. Which is going to be a tough sell with this class, these are mostly not college-bound kids. There's actually a huge range in this class, from incredibly bright kids, to kids who can barely do any math at all.

my suggestion in dealing with Hovind is this. your class is a physics one, and so take some of the physical claims that he makes, and rubbish them - use experiments where you can - demonstrate that he is objectively wrong, (and then perhaps make a snide comment that aren't they glad he isn't their teacher now :) ). the one with kids on a roundabout springs to mind. he makes a load more which should be easy to debunk. you don't have to go into how hovind is a liar and a charlatan, just show how wrong he is about simple things, and how he cannot be trusted. do it in a way that shows critical thinking, and use of sources and experiment.

[Djugashvillain]

You can reveal him as an idiot without using the word, and that seems to be the best way to go about it.

[EarlOfLade]

Certain parts of the United States are starting to sound like weird parallel dimensions to me.
USA : 1st world economy, 3rd world society.
That is all you need to know to understand it.

[Coragyps]

why? what the hell does that have to do with anything? if you're an atheist, then say you're an atheist.

You need to live here to see why that isn't practical. The word itself scares the crap out of 80% of the population here.

[Gooch's dad]

I have Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" and I've used it in lessons for an advanced geology class previously. It seemed to work fairly well.

Coragyps is right. Even here in Madison, one of the most liberal and enlightened cities in America, the word "atheist" does scare people. A lot of that may have to do with the fact that Annie Laurie Gaylor and FFRF are here in town, so people read about FFRF's actions quite a lot.

[Albion]

Before class, during the 5 minute passing period, the boy piped up with "Hey, I saw a cool video over the weekend, it proves evolution wrong!" I said it certainly isn't by a scientist, and he said "oh, it *is*, the guy taught science in middle school for 10 years!"

This child badly needs to be told what makes a person a scientist. A person who teaches in middle school is a teacher, even if he has a science PhD (which Hovind doesn't).

*still remembering when one of the more barking mad fundamentalists on the BBC board referred to Ken Ham as an eminent scientist...*

[miss anthrope]

Certain parts of the United States are starting to sound like weird parallel dimensions to me.

My father works with a man originally from the Middle-east. We have a democracy well, not anymore, good universities, are a world power... He thought that this meant US citizens are very enlightened, curious, and thoughtful people.

He was so disappointed.

I can only hope more teachers will be like Gooch's dad when it comes to awakening interest in science and explaining what constitutes science.