Anyone have any opinions on The Bahá'Ã* Faith

[ksskidude]

The Bahá'Ã* Faith is a religion founded by Bahá'u'lláh in 19th century Persia. Bahá'Ã*s number around 6 million in more than 200 countries around the world.[1][2]
According to Bahá'Ã* teachings, religious history is seen as an evolving educational process for mankind, through God's messengers, which are termed Manifestations of God. Bahá'u'lláh is seen as the most recent, pivotal, but not final of these individuals. He claimed to be the long-expected educator and teacher of all peoples, prophesied in Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and other religions, and that his mission was to establish a firm basis for unity throughout the world, and inaugurate an age of peace and justice, which Bahá'Ã*s expect will inevitably arise.[3]
Fundamental to Bahá'Ã* teachings are three core assertions: the oneness of God, the oneness of religion, and the oneness of humanity. These principles have a profound impact on the theological and social teachings of this religion.
Bahá'Ã* (Ba-haa-ee or /ba0ha+§i+/) is either an adjective referring to this religion or the term for a follower of Bahá'u'lláh, and not a noun referring to the religion as a whole. The term comes from the Arabic word Bahá’ (]¶[Æ), meaning glory or splendor .[4]

[Revolutionary]

My opinion of the Baha'i faith is the same as my opinion of every other faith: mistaken because there is nothing supernatural. Like many other religions, it has some positive elements, and like all other religions, it has negative elements.

[southernhybrid]

I was married to a Bahai for nine years in the 1970s and although I never fully accepted the supernatural elements of the religion, ( I was in my agnostic period back then ) I found it to be very tolerant and progressive compared to other religions. I attended many of their meetings and read many of their religious texts. Unless things have become distorted from what they were when I was familiar with their beliefs, I consider the religion to be a harmless one that has many beneficial values and principles. I am not the type of atheist that considers supernatural beliefs as necessarily harmful. I look at how the religion impacts people rather then how the followers perceive of the concepts such as god when I evaluate a religion.

Now when I look back on the religion and my studies of it, I see it as just another utopian philosophy that has supernatural elements. With the exception of my ex, :D I've never met a Bahai that I didn't like. I never met one that could be regarded as a fanatic either. My experience was that they were exceptionally tolerant people. They seemed to be very tolerant of atheists too. I just thought they were too idealistic in their thinking. They actually believe that one day the world will look to them for solutions that will bring about universal peace and harmony. As if.....

Some consider this religion an attempt to start a nicer, more tolerant version of Islam. Many Bahais have been persecuted or killed by Islamic radicals. This has been especially true in Iran, so I can see how this opinion would be formed

[TNorthover]

It's better on many issues, but looking around it's still the same old bigotry against homosexuality.

[ksskidude]

God
Bahá'Ã*s believe in a single, imperishable God, the creator of all things, including all the creatures and forces in the universe. [5] God is described as a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty. [6] Though inaccessible directly, God is nevertheless seen as conscious of his creation, with a mind, will and purpose. Bahá'Ã*s believe that God expresses this will at all times and in many ways, including through a series of divine messengers referred to as Manifestations of God or sometimes divine educators.[2] In expressing God's intent, these manifestations are seen to establish religion in the world. Bahá'Ã* teachings state that God is too great for humans to fully comprehend, nor to create a complete and accurate image.[7] Bahá'u'lláh often refers to God by titles (e.g. the All-Powerful, or the All-Loving). Bahá'Ã*s believe that this anthropomorphic description of God amounts to Bahá'u'lláh, in his capacity as God's manifestation, abstracting him in language that human beings can comprehend, since direct knowledge of the essence of God is believed impossible.[7]
Although human cultures and religions have different concepts of God and His nature, Bahá'Ã*s believe that such varying views nevertheless refer to a single being. The differences between these religions are attributed to the varying cultural and developmental contexts in which the messages were propagated.[5] Bahá'Ã*s regard the world's major (and many minor) religions as one single faith, revealed by God's manifestations progressively and in stages. No one message, and therefore no one religion can be, according to Bahá'Ã* belief, considered essentially superior to another, though a more recent message may be considered more relevant to humanity's current spiritual, social, and developmental context. Bahá'Ã*s regard most other religions as divinely inspired, though see them as having been superseded by Bahá'u'lláh's more recent revelation; Bahá'u'lláh in many places states that denying the validity of any of the previous legitimate religious founders is equivalent to denying all of them (including himself) and to denying God.

Any thoughts on what they think God is?

[ksskidude]

Any thoughts

[southernhybrid]

It's better on many issues, but looking around it's still the same old bigotry against homosexuality.

I have to say that the topic never came up when I was around the group so I have to plead ignorance on that one. I've not given the religion any serious thought in over 25 years. You are probably correct. All I remember is that they only approve of monogamy and then only in marriage, but back in the 70s, no discussion was ever given to gay marriage. The difference was that they never expected those outside of their faith to be held to the same set of values they maintained. I found this to be very different from the evangelical Xian religion in which I was raised.

Any thoughts on what they think God is?

God can never be really understood by humans so god reveals himself through these various prophets or manifestations of god, as they like to call them. If you can swallow the concept of god, their god is more warm, fuzzy and mysterious than some of the other concepts. In the end the Bahai concept of god is pretty much the same unknowable force that has all the power and does whatever he chooses to do. Glory be his name. ;) They like that word Glory. I like to think of the religion as similar to Islam but with most of the nasty stuff removed. :D

[ksskidude]

I have to say that the topic never came up when I was around the group so I have to plead ignorance on that one. I've not given the religion any serious thought in over 25 years. You are probably correct. All I remember is that they only approve of monogamy and then only in marriage, but back in the 70s, no discussion was ever given to gay marriage. The difference was that they never expected those outside of their faith to be held to the same set of values they maintained. I found this to be very different from the evangelical Xian religion in which I was raised.



God can never be really understood by humans so god reveals himself through these various prophets or manifestations of god, as they like to call them. If you can swallow the concept of god, their god is more warm, fuzzy and mysterious than some of the other concepts. In the end the Bahai concept of god is pretty much the same unknowable force that has all the power and does whatever he chooses to do. Glory be his name. ;) They like that word Glory. I like to think of the religion as similar to Islam but with most of the nasty stuff removed. :D


My friend feels reborn with his new discovery of religion. I am just trying to get some quality questions for him to think about.

[ksskidude]

Any moderators have any input?

[TomboyMom]

Well, it seems like if you say that God is unknowable, then you can't say anything else about Her, cuz how would you know?

[ksskidude]

Well, it seems like if you say that God is unknowable, then you can't say anything else about Her, cuz how would you know?

They would counter parts are unknowable. the parts that don't make any fucking sense.

[southernhybrid]

My friend feels reborn with his new discovery of religion. I am just trying to get some quality questions for him to think about.


They do tend to be a very emotionally satisfied group. Ask about how they regard gay marriage for starters. Another thing is that they claim to be non sexist but only men can serve on their universal house of justice. That was something that always bothered me a lot. There was no explanation for it. It was one of those only god knows type of things. There are a bunch of pretty silly social laws in the religion, like the complete prohibition of etoh, parental permission prior to marriage, the 19 day fast in Feb. etc. As I said, it's similar to Islam but far more tolerant, warm and fuzzy. Perhaps your friend has just gotten caught up in the warm, good feelings of the group. They are usually very nice people.

You might also ask him just how logical it is to think that one day the countries of the world will all look to the Bahais to bring about lasting world peace. They call it the "most great peace" and they believe there will never be another war once that is established. They also believe that we're supposed to be in the middle of the lesser peace by the year 2000. I'd like to hear how they explain the mess the world is in right now.

This religion seems nice and acceptable as long as you don't think too much about it. Once you think long and hard, it starts to sound too much like a very unrealistic utopian philosophy. On the other hand, if being a Bahai fills a need in your friend, provides him with a circle of nice friends and gives him a positive philosophy to embrace, why does it bother you, assuming it does. I actually wanted to believe back then as it was all so cozy and nice but my mind just couldn't allow me to do it. Obviously this is not a problem for other people. ;)

[Waning Moon Conrad]

From the very little I know about it, it seems tolerant and therefore sort of okayish.

It also seems to be ignorant and arrogant in that it has decided that the Buddha Sakyamuni was a prophet of a monotheistic God and professes to know more about what he taught than Buddhism itself does.

[ksskidude]

Thanks for the input! I am not against this relgion anymore than any other religion, I just wondered what people knew of it. My friend no longer wants to discuss these issues with me because he has no answers for me.

[Steven Mading]

I have a bit of info about this because my parents brought me up in the Bahai religion. I no longer believe it, but I used to when I was a child.

A good analogy is this: Unitarian Universalism is to Christianity as Bahai is to Islam.

Unitarians grew out of a group of Christians that left behind the really nasty stuff, tried to be as open and understanding of other traditions as possible, and thus over the years they changed their version of the religion into something very different from typical Christianity. Now it's gotten to the point where today there are very little beliefs in common between say, a classic Christian sect like Lutherans or Catholics and a modern day Unitarian. Well, now imagine the same thing happening to a group of Muslims and you have a pretty good picture of what the Bahai faith is.

One of the central tenets of Islam is this notion of "People of the Book" - which basically refers to a way to be tolerant of the other two Abrahmatic religions. If a culture believes in a monotheistic god, and has a written tradition in a book like the Qu'ran, Bible, or Talmud, then they are close enough to the "right" religion that it is best to be tolerant of them and try to convert them only by peacable means (like talking). If they lack this written religious tradition, then there's no reason for restraint and converting them by any means neccesary is justifiable.

(In my more cynical moments I imagine that the reason for that double-standard is that neighboring cultures that don't have writing would be less technological than ones that do, and thus easier to stongarm into conversion with non-peacable means.)

What Bahai's did is take this idea of People of the Book and remove some of the double-standard from it. Not just Abrahmatic monotheistic religions deserve tolerance, but ALL of them do.

The notion they have is that all the major religions that aren't just small-time personality cults (yeah, I know, the distinction is impossible to make, look, I didn't invent this religion) are actually referring to the same exact god. They would say that even the polytheists like the Hindu are merely referring to different facets of the same god, and they just don't know it.

So their basic core philosophy boils down to this: "Look, we're all doing the same thing - we're all worshipping the same god - so can't we just get along? You worship Him differently than I do, but so what? We don't have to kill each other over it."

In fact, some Bahais even have a dual-membership in both the local Bahai group AND some other religion too. The Bahai faith allows this much like some countries allow for dual-citizenship status. To convert to being a Bahai you are not requried to de-convert from your previous religion.

The problem I have with Bahais is the same problem that the poll numbers about religious tolerance in the USA show - Lots of people in this country are willing to be open and accepting of all religions, but still think there's something morally reprehensable about people who feel that all religion is superstition and reject it altogether. This notion of "Hey, you're alright with me as long as you believe in *some* type of mysticism and aren't one of those amoral unbelievers..." is still utterly disgusting to me and that's why I never got confirmed as a Bahaii. * They, like the UU's still have this notion that some type of mysticism is a prerequisite for moral behavior and human dignity. It's very frustrating to see a group of people come so very close to being nice and open and honestly humble about admitting that their views on the supernatural are just guesswork and not worth fighting over and yet fall so short on this one point.

In a way it's much more insulting to be given this treatment by UU's and Bahais than by fundamentalists. A fundamentalist would just say that all people who aren't part of his religion are ethically inferior. That puts the unbelieving skeptic like me on the same side of that line as most of the rest of the world, so there's plenty of people to speak up and disagree with the fundamentalist. The majority of the world can form up a sort of "defensive comradery" in their arguments against the misrepresentation of them by the fundamantalist. But a general spiritualist like a Bahai or a UU draws the line around JUST the unbelieving skeptics, saying the rest of the world is fine by them but there's something wrong with JUST the unbelieving skeptics and noone else. It's a far more frustrating mindset to deal with because it's harder to find that "defensive comradery" with other people around you to defend yourself against that accusation when it's levelled at JUST you and not everyone else in the room at the time.



* - One of the nice things about Bahais is that they don't engage in the fallacy of referring to small children as being members of a religion just because their parents are. (In that regard they would agree with what Richard Dawkins has to say on that matter). Instead they are taken to the religious gatherings under the umbrella term "friends and family of Bahais are welcome too..." Until you are 15 you aren't allowed to officially join the rolls and declare yourself a Bahai - they want to ensure that people are old enough to mean what they say and not just say it out of family loyalty. When I reached that age I was already starting to form doubts so I put it off until later. By the time "later" came around i was already a full blown atheist, and so *technically* I never was a Bahai. I was a "child of Bahai parents."

[never been there]

Nice people, too Abrahamic for me.

[southernhybrid]

The problem I have with Bahais is the same problem that the poll numbers about religious tolerance in the USA show - Lots of people in this country are willing to be open and accepting of all religions, but still think there's something morally reprehensable about people who feel that all religion is superstition and reject it altogether. This notion of "Hey, you're alright with me as long as you believe in *some* type of mysticism and aren't one of those amoral unbelievers..."

Thanks for sharing that. I had a very different experience. I was actually told by some Bahais that most atheists were people that were spiritual without recognizing the need for god or religion. I never had the impression that there was any bias against nonbelievers.

There is no such thing as a pure religion and there will always be a multitude of interpretations in all religious ideologies depending on the culture and times. Bahais seem to spend way too much time trying to keep their religion pure. I think it's a positive thing that religions have many different variations. It keeps one religion from being becoming too powerful. Much better to have thousands of variations in each major religion. If this religion ever experiences a significant amount of growth, I think it will become more divided, just as every other major world religion has over time.

[lpetrich]

I've looked into Bahai (Bahaism?) a little, and it's rather obviously an offshoot of Islam; I recall one Bahai explaining that Bahaism is related to Islam in the way that Xianity is related to Judaism.

Its doctrine of multiple prophets is much like the Muslim belief that the prophet Mohammed had had numerous predecessors, like Abraham, Moses, Alexander the Great, and Jesus Christ. The Bahai list is:

Abraham
Moses
Jesus Christ
Mohammed
Zoroaster
Krishna
The Buddha
The Bab
Baha'ullah

There are lots of problems with the Bahai conception of prophets; several of them have doubtful historicity if they are not entirely mythical. And it takes a lot of proof-texting to make the Buddha seem to believe in the Abrahamic God.

Furthermore, Hinduism is older than India's recorded history, and it's not clear how the Bahai scheme is supposed to work for pagan religions, which are almost always older than the recorded history of their followers. It's rather hard to find a prophet of the Hellenic, Norse, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Aztec, Mayan, and most old-time religions -- and they almost always feature worship of a multitude of deities and not any single deity comparable to the Abrahamic God.

I wonder how Bahais explain that -- by saying what monotheist Hindus say about the multitude of Hindu deities? Which is that they are aspects of a single god.

Baha'ullah also claimed to be the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and other prophesied messiahs.


Though Bahai is relatively feminist by the standards of many religions, its leaders, the nine-member Universal House of Justice, are all-male. One of Bahai's founders, Abdul Baha, once stated that the reason will some day be as clear as the Sun in the sky. I think that it already has. :p


I remember once having a lengthy argument with a Bahai about some strange ideas of history he had had -- that Socrates studed under King Solomon. He claimed that he got it off of unnamed medieval Persian scholars. I tried to argue with him that it was absurdly unhistorical, that King Solomon was a contemporary of Homer rather than of Socrates, without any success.

[Steven Mading]

Thanks for sharing that. I had a very different experience. I was actually told by some Bahais that most atheists were people that were spiritual without recognizing the need for god or religion. I never had the impression that there was any bias against nonbelievers.

Like most religions, there is a distinct difference between what the scripture says and what the majority of its followers delude themselves into thinking the scripture says. In written, form, the writings of the founders of the religion do say that belief in god is a necessary component to leading a moral life. Even before I was an atheist I had a huge problem with that part. I was not an atheist yet, but I still didn't see how being one would preclude one from being moral. After all, moral rules are all about stuff you do to other human beings in the here and now - they're not about what you think the origins of the universe are. Even at that time I could recognize that they're two completely independant subjects, and to mix the two was dishonest propaganda and nothing more.

[southernhybrid]

Oddly enough, they gave me some writings from Abdul Baha to support their idea that an atheist can be spiritual. It's been many years since that time though so I'm afraid I don't have a clue where they found that particular idea. One of my ex husband's relatives met Abdul Baha and she always had a lot of stories to share about him. It's even possible it came from one of these stories. I never got the impression that they took their writings all that literally. Maybe I just knew some very liberal Bahais. ;)

I've never thought it was the writings of any religion that matter but rather how the followers practised and interpretted them. Do you have any idea where exactly the case is made that only believers can be moral? If not, don't worry about it. I don't want anyone to go to much trouble as I'm not all that interested in the religion anymore.

I alway thought the Bahai writings were even more poetic and metaphorical than other religions that I had studied. It would have bothered me a bit if they had said one has to believe to live a moral life. I'm sure I would have lost my infatuation with them. Then again, morality is relative. I never agreed with the social laws of the religion. By their standards, I might be considered less than moral.

At least they don't beat anyone over the head with their beliefs and they are almost pacifists so I doubt they'll be starting any religious wars soon. At least not until someone decides to look at all that writing about peace in a very different way. ;) If all Muslims had converted to the current Bahai view, it would be progress imo.

[Steven Mading]

Do you have any idea where exactly the case is made that only believers can be moral? If not, don't worry about it. I don't want anyone to go to much trouble as I'm not all that interested in the religion anymore.

Everything I remember is from childhood from over 12 years ago, so I might not be getting all the details right - I no longer have the books to reference it. But I do remember seeing something parroting the standard meme that any moral belief needs an authority figure to provide a root foundation behind it all, so it requries a god.


I alway thought the Bahai writings were even more poetic and metaphorical than other religions that I had studied. It would have bothered me a bit if they had said one has to believe to live a moral life. I'm sure I would have lost my infatuation with them. Then again, morality is relative. I never agreed with the social laws of the religion. By their standards, I might be considered less than moral.

Keep in mind that while it is a massive liberalization of the religion that came before, the religion that came before was Islam - so even a very watered-down liberalized version of it would still have some leftover bits that would look a bit strict to most westerners. For example, it retained the notion that alchohol was verbotten, and the notion that you need your parents' permission to marry. But thankfully it did drop the sexist "women are property of their husbands" notion and replace it with something along the lines of this: while it still retains the notion that women and men do tend to have different strengths and weaknesses that tend to make some jobs better suited to one sex or the other, it says that the differences on a whole balance out and they are of equal worth overall.


At least they don't beat anyone over the head with their beliefs and they are almost pacifists so I doubt they'll be starting any religious wars soon. At least not until someone decides to look at all that writing about peace in a very different way. ;) If all Muslims had converted to the current Bahai view, it would be progress imo.
Oh, absolutely! It's even more libertine than most Christian sects too. (Though probably not more liberal than, say, the Unitarians.) One of the nicest changes from straight Islam to Bahii is the notion that there is ONE and only ONE acceptable way to try to make converts, and that is to TALK. Conversion by coersion of violence is expressly forbidden. And even conversion by talking is frowned upon if the target didn't invite the discussion in the first place (prosthelyzing is forbidden). Unfortunately I think this means it doesn't stand a chance of catching on in the Muslim world - just based on pure memetics - it doesn't try to spread itself as rabidly and powerfully.

[wordy]

I find them deceptful, maybe a strong word but they give the appearance of being scientific minded and openminded but if you meet them and talk to them over a period of 20 years as I have they show them to be very fundamentalistic in relation to their own texts. But they are often nice to talk to. Friendly and caring but that is how many fundies works too as long as they think your a potential convert.

[Steven Mading]

I find them deceptful, maybe a strong word but they give the appearance of being scientific minded and openminded but if you meet them and talk to them over a period of 20 years as I have they show them to be very fundamentalistic in relation to their own texts. But they are often nice to talk to. Friendly and caring but that is how many fundies works too as long as they think your a potential convert.
I agree entirely - but the point is that when you compare them *relative* to other religions, they aren't nearly as bad. They aren't quite as nice as just not having religion at all, but they're not as bad as most.

[wordy]

Yes, that is why I felt hope I first heard of them back in 1970 something. They had a mission all over the world then and tried to present themselves very favor and succeeded rather good. Friends of me joined. They usually are very friendly.

But what does that help when they read their own text rather literally like any fundy. As we Left Wing people, they are usually very friendly too. But they are very dogmatic too about political things. Wishful thinking.

[southernhybrid]

Unfortunately I think this means it doesn't stand a chance of catching on in the Muslim world - just based on pure memetics - it doesn't try to spread itself as rabidly and powerfully.

I agree with you.

I also agree that they take their texts very seriously. Other than their list of social laws, their texts are pretty innocent compared to other religions. Many of their social laws do make a bit of sense. ETOH certainly does have the potential to be seriously abused. It certainly does promote family unity if you get permission to marry, and even as a secularist I totally agree that there are differences among the genders. There is more evidence to support that idea coming from the scientific community than previously. I just don't think we need an authoritarian source to dictate any of those things. I'm not a fan of paternalism.

I don't think the Bahais are deceptive. I think they are incredibly naive. Since they don't brainwash their children, it's very likely that their numbers will remain small. I asked my own grown son yesterday, who was very exposed to the religion in his early childhood, if he ever believed it, or if he ever believed in god. He said that he may have believed when he was very young but as he reached puberty, it seemed really silly to be praying to some big guy out there. The sister of my ex never became a Bahai either. She may not be an atheist but she has never to my knowledge been involved with organized religion. Bahais that join as adults are usually very enamoured with the niceness and don't seem to think much about all the obvious contraditions.

[Booko]

Well, it seems like if you say that God is unknowable, then you can't say anything else about Her, cuz how would you know?

It's more accurate to say that She's unknowable by any human initiative.

[Booko]

The problem I have with Bahais is the same problem that the poll numbers about religious tolerance in the USA show - Lots of people in this country are willing to be open and accepting of all religions, but still think there's something morally reprehensable about people who feel that all religion is superstition and reject it altogether.

I'm not sure where you got that idea, given the writings statements that "religion should be the cause of unity, and if it is not, it would be a religious act to stay away from it."

That seems to fly in the face of the idea that being an atheist or agnostic is somehow morally reprehensible.

Nor it is an attitude I've run into over the years. I'm not sure why you ran into it. Perhaps it was a local phenomenon. I was an atheist for years before and didn't get any flak over it. My husband was an agnostic for even more years, and never complained of it.

They, like the UU's still have this notion that some type of mysticism is a prerequisite for moral behavior and human dignity. It's very frustrating to see a group of people come so very close to being nice and open and honestly humble about admitting that their views on the supernatural are just guesswork and not worth fighting over and yet fall so short on this one point.

Again, this is news to me. Even more so about the UUs, given I'm on another forum that has a number of UU/Atheists. If UUs had such a problem with atheists, one wonders why any of you would join?

In a way it's much more insulting to be given this treatment by UU's and Bahais than by fundamentalists. A fundamentalist would just say that all people who aren't part of his religion are ethically inferior. That puts the unbelieving skeptic like me on the same side of that line as most of the rest of the world, so there's plenty of people to speak up and disagree with the fundamentalist.

Again, I'm sorry your contact with the Baha'i was so limited. My opinions of skeptics, and I'm hardly alone in this, is that there is ample reason for skepticism about religion. All you have to do is look around. It's pretty obvious the skepticism is warranted.

But a general spiritualist like a Bahai or a UU draws the line around JUST the unbelieving skeptics, saying the rest of the world is fine by them but there's something wrong with JUST the unbelieving skeptics and noone else. It's a far more frustrating mindset to deal with because it's harder to find that "defensive comradery" with other people around you to defend yourself against that accusation when it's levelled at JUST you and not everyone else in the room at the time.

I'd be more inclined to tackle the religious fundamentalists. They actually blow stuff up. I haven't seen atheists take up that sort of behaviour, and it's not just for lack of organization.

[Mujahid_Munafiq]

I don't see Bahai as any different from Scientology, Raelianism, Nation of Islam, Ahmadiyya, Neo-Paganism, etc.

It's a cult that bends its beliefs to whatever the hell you wish.

[Astreja]

I don't see Bahai as any different from Scientology, Raelianism, Nation of Islam, Ahmadiyya, Neo-Paganism, etc.

It's a cult that bends its beliefs to whatever the hell you wish.As all religion is made by humans for humans, I think that it should align itself with what we each see as our personal realities. A religion that forces people into compliance with one and only one version of "truth" is simply forcing many people to accept the worldview of that religion's elite.

[Mujahid_Munafiq]

As all religion is made by humans for humans, I think that it should align itself with what we each see as our personal realities. A religion that forces people into compliance with one and only one version of "truth" is simply forcing many people to accept the worldview of that religion's elite.

Please don't make unsourced claims. Please prove, right here and now, that ALL religions are made by humans for humans. Every single one of them. Go for it kiddo. If you cannot, then take back your statement.

[_Naturalist_]

Are there any reasons to believe that any other species on this planet has created any of the religions?

[Astreja]

Please don't make unsourced claims. Please prove, right here and now, that ALL religions are made by humans for humans. Every single one of them. Go for it kiddo. If you cannot, then take back your statement.There is no, repeat, no scientifically verified evidence of any non-human entity producing scriptures or starting religions on this planet in recorded history.

Therefore, if you wish to attribute any religion (including your own) to a non-human, the onus is upon you to prove the existence of such a being, and then to prove that the being actually authored a religion. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. And holy books are inadmissable as evidence here.

[Rathpig]

Please don't make unsourced claims. Please prove, right here and now, that ALL religions are made by humans for humans. Every single one of them. Go for it kiddo. If you cannot, then take back your statement.


All religions are mythology because all gods are myths; therefore they were obviously "made up"/created/invented by humans. What else is there to "make up" a religion: an imaginary being called "god"?

If you seek to claim divine creation of anything then obviously (again) the burden of proof is upon you.

Show me god.



Not really possible is it?

Rathpig
Mythbuster

[steamer]

Please don't make unsourced claims. Please prove, right here and now, that ALL religions are made by humans for humans. Every single one of them. Go for it kiddo. If you cannot, then take back your statement.

Please prove that religions, any religions are not made by humans for humans, even a single one, Go for it kiddo. You never made that claim though, did you? You only imply it. Course us hicks at IIDB ain't supposed to notice?

[Rathpig]

Are there any reasons to believe that any other species on this planet has created any of the religions?

I am almost certain that chickens have a religion. Pigs, no. Cows, maybe. Chickens, I am 90% certain something religious is going on with them.

[premjan]

Bahais have nice-shaped temples. Mosques OTOH are generally monotonous (to my eye) as they are all the same shape. http://www.redbridgerenet.co.uk/gallery/bahai.jpghttp://www.bahai.us/system/files/bahai-temple.jpghttp://www.bahai.us/system/files/bahai-temple-western-samoa.jpghttp://www.bahai.us/system/files/bahai-temple-ashkabad.jpghttp://www.bahai.us/system/files/bahai-temple-chile.jpghttp://www.bahai.us/system/files/bahai-temple-germany.jpghttp://www.bahai.us/system/files/bahai-temple-australia.jpghttp://www.bahai.us/system/files/bahai-temple-panama.jpghttp://www.bahai.us/system/files/bahai-temple-uganda.jpg

[scisyhp]

I really don't know alot about it, but I know one person who practices it, and he seems to be more tolorant of things compared to most theists, and was interested in scientific theorys, believing that there was a distinct connection between them and religion.

[Steven Mading]

Bahais have nice-shaped temples. Mosques OTOH are generally monotonous (to my eye) as they are all the same shape.

I grew up near Milwaukee, and occasionally we'd go to the temple in Willamete. Illinois (it's one of the ones in your picture montage). Very gorgeous archetecture. The picture doesn't show it off very well, but the roof is a latticework - looking like a rendition of a lace pattern in granite. The inside is all one large round room going up to the roof, so the latticework pattern lets in a beautiful light display. People often make very beautiful things in the name of religion, like cathedrals, this temple, and orchestral masterpieces. It's just such a shame that such immense beauty is done for the purpose of promoting such a deceptive cause.

[revpo]

I attended the services for seven or eight months, only thing they did was read the history of their messenger, read some excerpts from various religions and sing I love the messenger, never made a bunch of sense and of course the leaders were from the mideast and they spoke the arabic or what after the meeting, had fireside chats a lot, and had the fasting like the Islamic religion does, its just an off shoot of Islam

revpo

[Steven Mading]

I'm not sure where you got that idea, given the writings statements that "religion should be the cause of unity, and if it is not, it would be a religious act to stay away from it."

Check out this quote:
The way of God and the religion of God have ceased to be of any worth in the eyes of men .... The vitality of men's belief in God is dying out in every land ... The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society.
Cited in The Promised Day is Come (Wilmette: Bahá'Ã* Publishing Trust, 1963) 117;


If you want a more in-depth explanation, try this link, which contains this quote and many others that support my claim that the Bahai religion says morality requires god, just like most other religions do: http://bahai-library.com/articles/schaefer.morality.html


Again, I'm sorry your contact with the Baha'i was so limited. My opinions of skeptics, and I'm hardly alone in this, is that there is ample reason for skepticism about religion. All you have to do is look around. It's pretty obvious the skepticism is warranted.


Did you read the thread? I was brought UP in a Bahai family. I went to the weekly religious school they set up. That's not "limited" contact with Bahais by any means.

They are very like the Unitarians in that they get so tantilizingly close to having a relativistic morality based only on consequences (which is a good thing), but then fall so incredibly short on this one sticking point that they think some type of mysticism is required for goodness. They adhere to the "you just gotta have faith in something, you know?" type of morality. They come so close and yet so far.

Well, No. I don't "gotta have faith". I'm better off without it. thank you very much.

[revpo]

They talk about the baab more than anything else, and dont have a set service, just history of the messengers, quotes from various religions and songs of bahallah all hosted by mid east chaps. and speak a lot in the native tongue..just another so called religion but as an off shoot of ISLAM but more confined....
revpo

[Steven Mading]

They talk about the baab more than anything else, and dont have a set service, just history of the messengers, quotes from various religions and songs of bahallah all hosted by mid east chaps. and speak a lot in the native tongue..just another so called religion but as an off shoot of ISLAM but more confined....
revpo

The group we went to was composed of a large mixture of cultures. It wasn't all middle-eastern, and people did generally speak in English (since it was the only language everyone present had in common). Sure, within a family people might drop back into native tounge for a moment (for example, to get the attention of their small child who's running around and admonish him to come back and sit down), but anything that was meant for the public consumption of all present was done in English.

I grew up in a very lilly-white suburban area - the Bahai group of about 40 or so people (at the time - I don't know how many it is now) was gathered from the entire county (of about 300,000 population) . The next nearest "congregation" (not really the right word) member to us lived in the next town over. While I don't believe the religion, one thing I am thankful for about being brought up in it is that it gave me a chance to get a taste of a multicultural mixture from a very young age in an area where that would have otherwise not happened.

I can remember the first time I witnessed other kids saying racist things in grade school, being very very confused by it. Not angry about it, but just completely confused. The idea of someone's race being a deciding factor in their behavior made as little sense to me as saying that their eye color was a factor in their behavior. To me, dark-skinned people weren't alien, but rather I thought of them as just being "those other kids I play with sometimes on sundays".

I'm very grateful to have had the chance to grow up in that kind of mixed environment. Unfortunately you can't grow up in America and not notice race after a while. One of the things I miss most about my childhood was that I can remember a time when I didn't really notice race and didn't really care about it. It's a state of mind that I can never go back to now.

[Wayne Delia]

I'm sorry to say that most of my knowledge/awareness of the Ba'ha'i Faith comes from listening to hymns and themed songs by two pop stars from the early 1970's, Jimmy Seals and Dash Crofts. Two damned fine musicians, in fact Jim could whistle one melody while simultaneously humming in harmony. It was weird, but cool-weird, to hear Ba'ha'i songs like "East of Ginger Trees" and "Nine Houses" right alongside "Summer Breeze" and "Diamond Girl".

[Merzbow42]

The Ba'hai's look innocuous on the surface but they have many cult-like aspects. The religion is controlled top-down in a dictatorial manner and the powers-that-be have the right to declare any out-of-line member a "Covenant-breaker", kick them out, and demand that all other members shun them completely. Plus they refuse to recognize marriages unless all four parents agree. See this site (written by an ex-Ba'hai turned Christian univeralist, i.e. not your usual fundie polemics):

http://www.bahai-faith.com/