Should one not become a Christian? -- Johnny Skeptic vs. Bible John

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

This thread has been set up for a formal debate between Johnny Skeptic and Bible John who will debate the following resolution:

"Resolved: there are sufficient reasons why one should not become a Christian."

Johnny Skeptic will affirm and Bible John will oppose. The debate will have 4 rounds and Johnny Skeptic will go first, per the parameters (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=3787437&postcount=30).

A Peanut Gallery (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3788264#post3788264) is set up in the General Religious Discussions forum for the rest of us to comment on the debate.

Enjoy the debate!

- NS, FD Moderator

[Johnny Skeptic]

Welcome everyone. I would like to thank the Secular Web, Nightshade, and Bible John for helping to make this debate possible.

Since the God of the Bible refuses to do everything that he can in order to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell, rational minded and fair minded people are not able to will themselves to accept him.

God tells some people about the Gospel message who never accept it, and refuses to tell some people about it who would accept it if they knew about it. No man can fairly be held accountable for refusing to accept a message that he would accept if he was aware that the being who delivered the message exists. If Jesus returned to earth and performed miracles all over the world, surely at least some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. My word, it would not at all be difficult for some modern magicians to go to some remote jungle regions in Borneo and convince at least a few natives that they had supernatural powers, and were Gods.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

[Johnny: Those were alleged TANGIBLE facts.]

Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

[Johnny: Those were TANGIBLE facts.]

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

[Johnny: Those were TANGIBLE FACTS.]

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

[Johnny: Those were TANGIBLE FACTS.]

John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

[Johnny: Those were TANGIBLE FACTS.]

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

[Johnny: The NIV translates the word “works” as “miracles”, and at least some of the miracles were TANGIBLE FACTS.

Clearly, in many cases, Jesus’ words did not confirm his tangible miracles. His tangible miracles confirmed his words.]

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

[Johnny: Jesus’ post-Resurrection appearances were TANGIBLE FACTS.]

Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders. (NIV)

[Johnny: The verse suggests that there were at least some TANGIBLE FACTS.]

Lest some Christians claim that once the Holy Spirit came to the Christian Church there was no longer a need for tangible miracles, Acts 14:3 refers to events that took place AFTER the Holy Spirit came to the church. Now readers, why do Christians suppose that after all of the preceding evidence, INCLUDING the presence of the Holy Sprit, that God felt the need to provide even more tangible confirmations, only to leave us with precious few tangible confirmations today, including no surviving eyewitnesses?

There is no doubt whatsoever that ANY powerful being who showed up and healed all of the sick people in the word would immediately attract a lot of followers, especially if his message was deemed to be acceptable. If such a being started a new religion, it would quickly become the largest religion in history, and yet some Christians claim that it would be counterproductive for God to do anything more than he has already done. How utterly absurd. Humans place great importance on good health. It IS NOT counterproductive to heal people. If it were, Christian doctors would not be trying to prevent and cure ALL diseases. It WOULD NOT be counterproductive for amputees to get new arms and legs, but obviously, God has something against amputees because he never gives them new arms and legs, although he enjoys curing people who have colds.

God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11. God punishes people for sins that their grandparents committed, reference Exodus 20:5. Exodus 21:20 says “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.” However, if a Jew killed a Jew, he was put to death. Equal justice under the law?, no way. Exodus 20:13 says “Thou shalt not kill”, but God hypocritically kills people with hurricanes, including some of his most devout and faithful followers, including babies. I challenge Bible John to tell us how such behavior is of any benefit to God or to mankind.

God kills innocent animals. Higher animals have emotions, they feel physical and emotional pain, and animal researchers have told us that some higher animals are self-aware.

If an ordinary man were willing to suffer and die for some people (some skeptics are willing to suffer and die for some people), and killed some people (God kills some people with hurricanes, including some of his most devout followers, and babies), he would be considered irrational, bi-polar, and mentally incompetent. Why should the behavior of God be considered any differently?

Is God any better than Attila the Hun was? I wonder. Attila killed lots of people, including babies. God kills lots of people, including babies. If Attila had somehow acquired vast powers, and had the ability to send people to heaven and hell, he probably would have done so according to his own standards, just like the God of the Bible. If Attila had had the ability to heal people, he would have healed some people, but not everyone, just like God, with at least one notable diffference; unlike God, he would have consistently healed his own followers as a reward for their faithfulness, or prevented them from getting sick. Unlike God, Attila would have killed his enemies, not his enemies AND his faithful followers.

Hundreds of millions of people died without having heard the Gospel message because God refused to tell them about it. Human effort never has been, and never will be sufficient to let everyone know about the Gospel message, but then that has been God's intention all along. In the first century, the “fortunate” people who heard the Gospel message were people who lived in close proximity to Palestine. What did God have against people who were living in China? What good is a better covenant, reference Hebrews 8:6, if people do not know about it?

If God does not exist, or if he does not really care whether or not people know about the Gospel message, it is to be expected that acceptance of Christianity would be limited primarily to the entirely secular factors of geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, and age, the very factors that are discussed in Kosmin and Lachman's 'One Nation Under God'. The book deals only with the U.S. For instance, the authors mention that a much higher percentage of women become Christians than men. How does Bible John account for this, and for the significant secular influences of geography, family, race, ethnicity, and age?

Can any PARTICULAR Christian expect to receive food, shelter, clothing, good health, and long life from God? I assume not. Hundreds of thousands of Christians have starved to death, and many have died slow and painful deaths from disease. Many babies are born with serious birth defects, needlessly suffer a lot, and die a few days later. Sometimes, the baby’s parents or other people give up Christianity as a result, or refuse to become Christians as a result.

It is reasonable to assume that tangible benefits are distributed to humans in a RANDOM manner that DOES NOT indicate divine involvement of any kind, which is quite odd if the God of the Bible exists, and quite natural if he does not exist.

Today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. Such being the case, why should anyone believe that it was any different back then?

In conclusion, if the God of the Bible exists, there is more than enough evidence for rational minded people to reject him. In fact, rational minded and fair minded people do not have any choice in the matter. They must reject the God of the Bible. Of course, the best conclusion is that the God of the Bible does not exist.

[Bible John]

I want to welcome everyone to this debate. Thank you NightShade for hosting this debate, thank you Mr. Skeptic for participating, and I want to thank my many critics that poke at me from the Peanut Galleries, Usenet Newsgroups and my web ministries guestbook. I am reading your drivel.

Johnny I followed your last debate and found it sad that your opponent was recently suspended from this website. I do hope that with this experience will he soon repent of his scoff law attitude and his imperialist attitude he has towards others. I assure you that in this debate you will be debating a Baptist/Baptistic Fundamentalist and not a Pentecostal/Charismatic as he was. For all those that do not know me, the names John Wolf and I am the director of a web ministry on the Internet called Church Education Resource Ministries www.cerm.info CERM’s primary mission is to provide resources for Christians searching for answers on many Biblical, Theological, Apologetics, and Topical subjects.

Johnny Skeptic writes

Since the God of the Bible refuses to do everything that he can in order to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell, rational minded and fair minded people are not able to will themselves to accept him.

I do not think so. I wrote a paper on CERM called FreeWill or Predestination and you may find this in CERM’S Theology section. There are many such verses that clearly show that man has a freewill to accept God, but many have chosen darkness. God did everything He could and sent his very own son to die for the sins of mankind. Die-hard Calvinists do say that Christ only died for the elect, but this is a false doctrine. CERM is a Fundamentalist web ministry, but it is not a five point Calvinistic web ministry. However since you skeptics cannot debate Theology (since you do not believe in it) its useless to engage you in such a Theological debate which seems far more appropriate on a Christian debate forum.

My word, it would not at all be difficult for some modern magicians to go to some remote jungle regions in Borneo and convince at least a few natives that they had supernatural powers, and were Gods.

The Spiritual Terrorists are doing just this. Many of these are going into Africa, South America and other remote regions and performing false miracles. CERM has an article in our Theology section on the Supernatural Sign Gifts and in the article it is proven from a Biblical Hermeneutic that none of these gifts exist today in this Church age. So therefore anyone that claims to be able to perform Miracles in today’s day is a false prophet! God and only He heals and performs miracles today. The gift of healing ceased many years ago with the 1st century church.

God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11. God punishes people for sins that their grandparents committed, reference Exodus 20:5. Exodus 21:20 says “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.” However, if a Jew killed a Jew, he was put to death. Equal justice under the law?, no way. Exodus 20:13 says “Thou shalt not kill”, but God hypocritically kills people with hurricanes, including some of his most devout and faithful followers, including babies. I challenge Bible John to tell us how such behavior is of any benefit to God or to mankind.

God does not kill people with hurricanes and other natural disasters. There is a theological term called Natural Evil.

Natural Evil- is a disorder in the physical world. Such physical causes as militate against physical well being are therefore called evils. That such evils are, to some extent at least, the effect or penalty of sin is a clear teaching of scripture (Ge 3:10-12; 6:12). To what extent physical sufferings are the necessary means to a greater good is, however, a great question (New Ungers Bible Dictionary).

God does allow the hurricanes, but he Himself does not always author them. Such evil in the creation world are not always evil that God originated. Sickness and disease does not come from God, despite what any skeptic may tell you. This comes from the sinful world, and God is not sinful, nor can God be around sin.

On a second note I will credit you for finding a mistranslated verse in the Authorized Version.

Exo 20:13 KJV Thou shalt not kill.

I recently wrote a article n KJV Onlyism on CERM, so you should check it out. In the article I explain some of the basic and common misconceptions of the KJVO view. Not that anything I nor anyone has to say will convince a KJVO radical, the literal Hebrew in this verse does not agree with the King James Version.

The word used to translate “kill” comes from the Hebrew word ratsach. In the literal Hebrew this word translates as murder. The New King James Version and all other modern translations replace “kill” with “murder.” The ESV footnotes notes say this “The Hebrew word also covers causing human death through carelessness or negligence” (English Standard Version footnotes).

So in the context of the chapter and of the Bible as a whole, it would make sense why the more modern translations get it right and replace the KJV’s “kill” with “murder.” A KJVO radical will never understand nor accept this, but its important to note that they also believe in “gay clothing” (James 2:3, KJV).

God kills innocent animals. Higher animals have emotions, they feel physical and emotional pain, and animal researchers have told us that some higher animals are self-aware.

Johnny can you please elaborate on the term Higher animals? I love animals and own a Animal Encyclopedia. I have yet to come across the term Higher animals. Although I can’t understand your vernacular, I will say that animals do feel pain and do have emotion. Yes God did kill animals, and does allow for the killing of animals. But God only killed in response to sin.

Gen 3:16-21 KJV Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (17) And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; (18) Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; (19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (20) And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. (21) Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

People that read out of the CONTEXT usually come up with conclusions like yours Johnny. Sadly there are even many Christians that do not know how to read the Bible for all its worth. CERM should one day write a basic introduction to Biblical Hermeneutics, as its obvious that there are many that do not know how to read the Bible.

Is God any better than Attila the Hun was? I wonder. Attila killed lots of people, including babies. God kills lots of people, including babies.

Again look up the Theological term called Natural Evil. Natural evil explains that it is sin in the creation that allows these hurricanes and other events to kill babies and animals. God does not always create these storms, but He does allow them.

If Attila had somehow acquired vast powers, and had the ability to send people to heaven and hell, he probably would have done so according to his own standards, just like the God of the Bible.

Actually the God of the Bible wants people to go to Heaven and not Hell.

2Pe 3:9 KJV The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hundreds of millions of people died without having heard the Gospel message because God refused to tell them about it. Human effort never has been, and never will be sufficient to let everyone know about the Gospel message, but then that has been God's intention all along. In the first century, the “fortunate” people who heard the Gospel message were people who lived in close proximity to Palestine. What did God have against people who were living in China? What good is a better covenant, reference Hebrews 8:6, if people do not know about it?

I might argue that those that have died without hearing the gospel and did not come to a acceptance of God died and went to Hell. But I can’t say for sure. You see God has revealed himself in the creation. There is another Theological term called General Revelation. Some verses that illustrate this Theological term are below.

Psa 104:5 KJV Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Psa 8:3 KJV When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Mat 5:45 KJV That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Rom 1:20 KJV For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

It still continues to amaze me how you skeptics continue to avoid the invisible and visible things from the creator in our creation and yet you still continue to deny that God exists. Has any of you ever taken a science course? Did you know that there are many invisible things flying around in space and o earth? Did you know that there are many invisible insects below the absolute threshold of the eye in the ground and on your skin? How could any of these be created by chance?

Can any PARTICULAR Christian expect to receive food, shelter, clothing, good health, and long life from God? I assume not. Hundreds of thousands of Christians have starved to death, and many have died slow and painful deaths from disease. Many babies are born with serious birth defects, needlessly suffer a lot, and die a few days later. Sometimes, the baby’s parents or other people give up Christianity as a result, or refuse to become Christians as a result.

Jesus said that in this life you would have trouble (John 16:33) and likewise Peter says that we are strangers in this world (1 Pet 2:11). Given these verses viewed in their context, it would make sense that perfect peace will not come until the Christians go to Heaven. The world in which we live in is very sinful and filled with darkness. There will be no peace in this world. The only peace comes from the Lord Jesus Christ. God never promised his followers material prosperity. I am aware of the Prosperity gospel message of some of the Terrorists and by others who are ignorant in the word. But rest assured that no where in the Bible does it state that His people will be free from sin, sickness and disease in this life. But in Heaven there will be no more of he old order of things.

Rev 21:4-5 KJV And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

In conclusion, if the God of the Bible exists, there is more than enough evidence for rational minded people to reject him. In fact, rational minded and fair minded people do not have any choice in the matter. They must reject the God of the Bible. Of course, the best conclusion is that the God of the Bible does not exist.

That’s too bad that you think this. I will ask you again. Have you ever studied science? Have you ever looked outside? Have you ever taken a trip to the Mountains, etc? What do you see? How could such a world be created by random chance? Try studying the Human body, try studying the insect world. Don’t all of these evidences in the creation point to a God of Heaven? Why do you continue not to see this? I only hope that you will one day see this and come to faith in God before it is too late for you. Death can come at anytime and it comes to us all. You need to be prepared for death. I am prepared for death and will go join my Lord when my due time comes.

John Wolf
www.cerm.info

[Johnny Skeptic]

Hello everyone,

For reader information, I am an agnostic.

All Scriptures will be from the KJV unless otherwise noted.

Since the God of the Bible refuses to do everything that he can in order to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell, rational minded and fair minded people are not able to will themselves to accept him.

I do not think so. I wrote a paper on CERM called Free Will or Predestination and you may find this in CERM’S Theology section. There are many such verses that clearly show that man has a free will to accept God, but many have chosen darkness. God did everything He could and sent his very own son to die for the sins of mankind. Die-hard Calvinists do say that Christ only died for the elect, but this is a false doctrine. CERM is a Fundamentalist web ministry, but it is not a five point Calvinistic web ministry. However, since you skeptics cannot debate Theology (since you do not believe in it) it is useless to engage you in such a Theological debate which seems far more appropriate on a Christian debate forum.

This issue is about common sense, not theology. If a being came to earth, claimed to be Jesus, and demonstrated that he had vast powers, including healing all of the sick people in the world, as far as I know, since any being might be an imposter, it would be impossible for any being to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is Jesus. If such a being showed up, I would be neutral regarding his claim that he was Jesus, but human nature being what it is, many people would believe his claim (many people have accepted outlandish claims based upon much less evidence, so my argument is most certainly valid), in which case if he was Jesus, some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. From a Christian perspective, wouldn’t that be a good thing? If not, I would certainly like to know why not.

Lest some Christians claim that today, we have the Holy Spirit as evidence, in the Acts 14:3 says “So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.” (NIV) Acts mentions a number of other tangible miracles that the disciples performed. Today, unlike it supposedly was back then, there are not ANY eyewitnesses around who saw Jesus perform many miracles, and who saw him after he rose from the dead. Surely there was much less need for any additional tangible confirmations back then than there is today. Consider the following Scriptures:

Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Johnny: Now readers, do you not find it to be quite odd that with all of that evidence, AND the presence of the Holy Spirit, that God provided even MORE tangible confirmations? The writer of the book of Acts did not do Christians any favors by writing that miracles continued to be performed AFTER the Holy Spirit came to the church. Jesus criticized Thomas for wanting tangible evidence that he had risen from the dead, but yet God supposedly provided plenty of tangible of miracles BEFORE and AFTER the Holy Spirit came to the church. I thought that faith is the lack of tangible evidence.

Ok, back to my discussion about a being coming to earth who claimed to be Jesus. I would ask him lots of questions about God’s many questionable actions and allowances. If I was satisfied with his answers, and if he agreed to provide me with a comfortable eternal life, I would accept him even though I could not be reasonably certain who he was. Revelation 21:4 says "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." That is the prize that many if not most Christians are hoping to receive, and I do not blame them. I want that too, but I couldn't care less who provided it as long as it was available. Neither would most Christians if it one day turned out that a comfortable eternal life was available from a God other than the God of the Bible. If a man has cancer, and a cure is available, he most certainly does not care who provides him with the cure.

If I was not satisfied with the being's answers, I would not be able to will myself to accept him.

Matthew 14:14 says “And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.” We need a lot more compassion like that today. If ANY being came to earth, claimed that he was the one true God, healed all of the sick people in the world, prevented natural disasters from occurring, and was willing to answer everyone’s questions, he would be greatly appreciated by most people, and why not? If such a being started a new religion, I assume that it would become the largest religion in history. No rational person would reject a God who actually cares about the tangible needs of humans on a consistent basis, and who is available to answer questions, tangibly, in person. If the God of the Bible had acted like that, I assume that at least 95% of the people in the world would be Christians, possibly 99.9999%.

Logically, if the God of the Bible exists, surely he could not possibly have anything whatsoever to lose if he acted like the God who I described, and surely mankind would have much to gain, both in this life, and in the next life because only a very few people would end up in hell.

Humans quite naturally place great importance upon good physical health. No one who has very poor physical health is able to enjoy life, especially if they have untreatable pain. Christian doctors are trying to prevent and cure ALL diseases. Whenever a prevention or a cure for a disease is found, ALL Christians rejoice.

I am not suggesting that humans should not have any problems and obstacles to overcome. No loving human father would try to remove all problems and obstacles from the life of his son. Humans need some difficulties and challenges to deal with so they can develop good character. However, I am not aware of any evidence that you have to allow a man to be seriously injured of killed, or allow him to starve to death, in order to help him develop good character, or to convince him to become a Christian.

God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11. God punishes people for sins that their grandparents committed, reference Exodus 20:5. Exodus 21:20 says “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.” However, if a Jew killed a Jew, he was put to death. Equal justice under the law?, no way. Exodus 20:13 says “Thou shalt not kill”, but God hypocritically kills people with hurricanes, including some of his most devout and faithful followers, including babies. I challenge Bible John to tell us how such behavior is of any benefit to God or to mankind.

God does not kill people with hurricanes and other natural disasters. There is a theological term called Natural Evil.

Natural Evil - is a disorder in the physical world. Such physical causes as militate against physical well being are therefore called evils. That such evils are, to some extent at least, the effect or penalty of sin is a clear teaching of scripture (Genesis 3:10-12; 6:12). To what extent physical sufferings are the necessary means to a greater good is, however, a great question (New Ungers Bible Dictionary).

God does allow the hurricanes, but he Himself does not always author them. Such evil in the creation world are not always evil that God originated. Sickness and disease does not come from God, despite what any skeptic may tell you. This comes from the sinful world, and God is not sinful, nor can God be around sin.

On a second note I will credit you for finding a mistranslated verse in the Authorized Version.

Exo 20:13 KJV Thou shalt not kill.

I recently wrote a article n KJV Onlyism on CERM, so you should check it out. In the article I explain some of the basic and common misconceptions of the KJVO view. Not that anything I nor anyone has to say will convince a KJVO radical, the literal Hebrew in this verse does not agree with the King James Version.

The word used to translate “kill” comes from the Hebrew word ratsach. In the literal Hebrew this word translates as murder. The New King James Version and all other modern translations replace “kill” with “murder.” The ESV footnotes notes say this “The Hebrew word also covers causing human death through carelessness or negligence” (English Standard Version footnotes).

So in the context of the chapter and of the Bible as a whole, it would make sense why the more modern translations get it right and replace the KJV’s “kill” with “murder.” A KJVO radical will never understand nor accept this, but it is important to note that they also believe in “gay clothing” (James 2:3, KJV).

Since God killed almost everyone in the world with the global flood, and killed all of the firstborn males in Egypt, some of which must have been babies, and killed unborn babies and young children at Sodom and Gomorrah, there are not any good reasons for anyone to assume that he is not still killing people today. The Natural Evil argument is of course patently absurd. If a human father allowed his children to be killed by a bear when he could have prevented it, he would be ostracized from human society, including Christian society, tried and convicted of negligence in a court of law, and probably sent to prison. Of course, a human father would not create a bear (the Devil) that he knew would kill his children.

Now is Bible John claiming that God gave the Devil the power to control the weather, and the power to create a bacteria (Bubonic Plague) that killed one fourth of the people in Europe? If so, that is truly an outrageous, outlandish, and uncorroborated claim. Surely Bible John supports President Bush's attempts to prevent North Korea and Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, but yet he also supports God's choice to allow, actually empower the Devil to cause a lot more harm than North Korea and Iran ever could. This is utter nonsense.

It HAS NOT been reasonably proven that the best way to convince people that you exist is to distribute tangible benefits without any regard whatsoever for a person’s worldview, giving many people the impression that tangible benefits are distributed entirely according to the laws of physics. Today, this is exactly the situation that we have. If God does not exist, it is to be expected that the only benefits that anyone could expect to receive from him would be subjective spiritual/emotional benefits.

[Bible John]

Hello everyone and thanks for following this rather time stretching debate. I want to thank Johnny for informing me of his Agnostic views. I had mistaken him as an Atheist. Its interesting too see that Johnny prefers the KJV translation. You know I have been absent from Usenet for sometime, because I have been debating a number of KJVO Fundamentalists on a Yahoo Group called WhichVersion. In my view KJV Onlyism is an irrational, illogical, unbiblical and theologically unsound movement within Christian Fundamentalism. But by no means is KJV Onlyism a movement led by Spiritual Terrorists. Most KJV Only's are saved and will be in Heaven with Jesus and the Angels. And while we are on the topic of Bible Translations, let me say that in this round, unless otherwise stated, I will be using the New International Version (NIV). Okay on to the debate.

First I wish to apologize for a statement that I made in my Introduction post. I very bluntly stated that Skeptics cannot debate Theology. This is not true as there are many Theological issues that can be debated with a Skeptic. I did post an apology to a Agnostic leader that likes to poke at Christians from his Google group, but the post was not received by him, and so it did not go public.

Some of the areas that Skeptics can debate Theists are as follows.

Total Depravity
Hell
Theology Proper
Christology
Harmatology
Anthropology

But there are other Theological topics that a Skeptic could not effectively debate a Theist.

Below are just a few topics

Baptism
Baptismal Regeneration (A OneNess Pentecostalism Doctrine)
Theology of the Sabbath
The Role of Women in Ministry
The Lord’s Supper
The Trinity
Five Point Calvinism
The Doctrine of Election
The Doctrine of Progressive Sanctification
The Doctrine of Eschatology
The Doctrine of Ecclesiology
The Doctrine of Pneumatology
The doctrine of cessationism (Johnny's latest opponent was opposed to this doctrine)

Johnny Skeptic writes

This issue is about common sense, not theology. If a being came to earth, claimed to be Jesus, and demonstrated that he had vast powers, including healing all of the sick people in the world, as far as I know, since any being might be an imposter, it would be impossible for any being to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is Jesus.

On the contrary the Bible warns against false Christ’s and Antichrists who will be performing false counterfeit Miracles.

[Mt 24:23] At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. [24] For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-if that were possible.

I believe that the passage above is speaking directly of a time during the Tribulation, however this is not to say that the passage above can not be applied and useful today for discerning Shepherds from wolves. But I think the difference will be that during the Tribulation the false prophets’ miracles will be undeniable. Many of the Spiritual Terrorists that perform "miracles" today do not perform miracles that are undeniable, and many of their so-called miracles are all part of a show. The Disciples and Paul performed miracles that were undeniable. Also they could substantiate their claims by doing the following, which bye the way cannot be done by any of the false miracle workers today.

1) HEAL with a word or touch- Acts 9:32-35
2) HEAL instantly-Acts 3:2-8
3) HEAL totally-Acts 9:34
4) HEAL anyone- Acts 5:12-16
5) HEAL organic diseases
6) HEAL at will
7) RAISE the dead-Acts 9:36-42,20:9-12

Johnny if your previous opponent is reading this debate, I'd expect him to take off his shoe and throw it at his computer screen after he read the above. Sadly too many people in his movement and other movements of similar ilk believe that healing, tongues, interpretation of Tongues, prophecy, and the other Apostolic sign gifts are still active today. But the scripture makes it quite clear that these were a 1st century gift and they ceased at the end of the apostolic age which was around AD 55.

Johnny Skeptic then writes

Many people would believe his claim (many people have accepted outlandish claims before upon much less evidence, so my argument is most certainly valid), in which case if he was Jesus, some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. From a Christian perspective, wouldn't that be a good thing? If not, I would certainly like to know why not.

[Mt 7:13] “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [14] But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

It wouldn’t be a good thing. For one there are already many false prophets and teachers in Africa among other remote regions of the world where many in the false Word of Faith and Charismatic movements get to practice and perform false miracles. And even some of these “Miracle workers” claim that Jesus appeared to them. Take a look at the following article.

http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Apologetics/WordofFaith.htm

In this article Benny Hinn makes a direct claim that Jesus himself appeared. But what Hinn said contradicted what the Bible said long before Hinn ever was born.

[Mt 24:26] “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. [27] For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. [28] Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
[29] “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
[30] “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. [31] And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

When Jesus comes his appearance will be visible to the entire earth PERIOD! Benny Hinn and other false teachers do not know what they are talking. Their claims are all false, as well as their false miracle ministries. Not everyone in the Word of Faith movement is a Spiritual Terrorist, but I believe that Benny Hinn earned that title a long time ago.

Jesus criticized Thomas for wanting tangible evidence that he had risen from the dead, but yet God supposedly provided plenty of tangible miracles BEFORE and AFTER the Holy Spirit came to the church. I thought that faith is the lack of tangible evidence.

Actually Jesus proved who He was to Thomas and did provide TANGIBLE evidence to support his claim that He was the risen Christ and He is God.

[Jn 20:24] Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. [25] So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”
[26] A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” [27] Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
[28] Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
[29] Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

The reason that God provided many miracles and other Tangible evidences were because the Word of God needed to be confirmed. This was the entire reason for the temporary Apostolic Sign Gifts.

[Mk 16:20] Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

[Rev 21:4] He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

That is the prize that many if not most Christians are hoping to receive, and I do not blame them. I want that too, but I couldn't care less who provided it as long as it was available.

Johnny I must be blunt with you here. The Bible says that without a savior you will not make it to Heaven. If you do not have a savior and have not repented of your wicked ways, then you will not be in Heaven, but Hell after your death.

Consider the following scriptures

[Jn 3:16] “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

[Ro 5:8] But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

[Ro 6:23] For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Ro 10:9] That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

[2Co 5:21] God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

[Ep 2:8] For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- [9] not by works, so that no one can boast.

If it one day turned out that a comfortable eternal life was available from a God other than the God of the Bible

There is only one God, and there are none other.

[Isa 45:21] Declare what is to be, present it-
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.

Logically, if the God of the Bible exists, surely he could not possibly have anything whatsoever to lose if he acted like the God who I described, and surely mankind would have much to gain, both in this life, and in the next life because only a very few people would end up in Hell.

Why would the God of the Bible want to act like the sinful creation? God is perfect and without sin. He does not need to act in accordance to the will and the desires of the creation. His ways are not our ways, and neither are His thoughts our thoughts

[Isa 55:7] Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
[8] “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
[9] “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Mankind does not know the way of the Lord, and mankind seeks to please its own self and sinful desires. Sadly much of mankind has chosen Hell and not Heaven. There are none righteous and non who seek after God.

English Standard Version
[Ro 3:10] as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
[11] no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
[12] All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
[13] “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
[14] “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
[15] “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
[16] in their paths are ruin and misery,
[17] and the way of peace they have not known.”
[18] “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
[19] Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.


No loving father would try and remove all problems and obstacles from the life of his son. Humans need some difficulties and challenges to deal with so they can develop good character. However, I am not aware of any evidence that you have to allow a man to be seriously injured or killed, or allow him to starve to death in order to help him develop good character, or to convince him to become a Christian.

You raise a good point. It’s tough to say why exactly God allows evil and suffering in the world. There are no easy or yes or no answers to this one.

I think that one possible explanation to this question comes from the following website http://www.carm.org/questions/suffering.htm.

Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world

Johnny Skeptic writes

The Natural Evil argument is of coarse patently absurd.... Now is Bible John claiming that God gave the Devil the power to control the weather, and the power to create bacteria (Bubonic Plague) that killed one fourth of the people in Europe? If so, that is truly an outrageous, outlandish, and uncorroborated claim. Surely Bible John supports President Bush's attempts to prevent North Korea and Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, but yet he also supports God's choice to allow, actually empower the Devil to cause a lot of harm than North Korea and Iran ever could. This is utter nonsense.

I am claiming that God gave power of this world to Satan. Some scriptures that prove this are below.

[Ep 2:2] in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

[Jn 16:11] and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

[1Jn 5:19] We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

On a second note I do support Bush in most areas. However this is off topic for the scope of this debate. But you may be asking why God allowed Satan to control the world? I don’t know, but the Bible says that the righteous shall live by faith (Hab 2:4). I trust my Bible as my authority for my life and pratice.

Johnny concludes below

If God does not exist, it is to be expected that the only benefits that anyone could expect to receive from him would be subjective spiritual/emotional benefits.

No the major benefit that anyone would expect to receive from him would be eternal life in Heaven and not separation from God in Hell/The Lake of Fire. One day God will separate the Sheep from the Goats and I sure do hope that people will come to Christ by testimony of my web ministry CERM, and my testimony on these boards.

New King James Version

The Sheep and the Goats

[Mt 25:31] “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.[32] “All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.[33] “And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

John Wolf
www.cerm.info

[Johnny Skeptic]

Hello everyone,

If a being came to earth, claimed to be Jesus, and demonstrated that he had vast powers, including healing all of the sick people in the world, as far as I know, since any being might be an imposter, it would be impossible for any being to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is Jesus. If such a being showed up, I would be neutral regarding his claim that he was Jesus, but human nature being what it is, many people would believe his claim (many people have accepted outlandish claims based upon much less evidence, so my argument is most certainly valid), in which case if he was Jesus, some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. From a Christian perspective, wouldn’t that be a good thing? If not, I would certainly like to know why not.

It wouldn’t be a good thing. For one there are already many false prophets and teachers in Africa among other remote regions of the world where many in the false Word of Faith and Charismatic movements get to practice and perform false miracles. And even some of these “Miracle workers” claim that Jesus appeared to them. When Jesus comes his appearance will be visible to the entire earth PERIOD! Benny Hinn and other false teachers do not know what they are talking. Their claims are all false, as well as their false miracle ministries. Not everyone in the Word of Faith movement is a Spiritual Terrorist, but I believe that Benny Hinn earned that title a long time ago.

The point is, if the God of the Bible exists, he could have done much more than he has done to convince people to become Christians. If Jesus’ second coming being visible to everyone in the world is sufficient evidence that he exists, then an appearance like that during the life of Jesus, and at least once in every successive century, would have been much better, that is, assuming that Jesus wanted to convince everyone in the world that he [supposedly] exists, which does not appear to be the case, and assuming that God’s intention is to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few as possible go to hell, which does not appear to be the case either.

If Jesus had stayed on earth, and had continued to perform miracles all over the world through today, almost no one in the world would doubt that he exists. As it is, a sizeable majority of the people in the world do not believe that he exists. Bible John will of course claim that today, we have the Holy Spirit as evidence, but many people, including me, are much more convinced by tangible evidence than they are by spiritual evidence. Surely the presence of Jesus AND the Holy Spirit would be the very best kind of evidence. Bible John prefers God’s way of holding people accountable for what they OUGHT to know rather than holding people accountable for what they DO know. That is not fair. As far as I know, there are not any laws in democratic countries that invoke the death penalty or life in prison if a person is not aware a law. No many can fairly be held accountable for rejecting a God who he does not know [supposedly] exists.

Regarding people who have not heard the Gospel message, at the BC&H Forum, rhutchin, who is a Calvinist, said:

However, a person can still be held accountable for his actions even if he does not know how to escape the punishment for those actions.

I replied:

The point is that God deliberately withholds information from some people who would accept it if they were aware of it. If God clearly revealed himself to everyone, no man could complain that he did not have adequate information, in which case no man would have any excuses. As it is, on judgment day, any man who has never heard the Gospel message who Jesus chooses to send to hell can rightly say that the rules were not clearly disclosed. In addition, on judgment day, any man who has heard the Gospel message and rejected it, and would have accepted it if he had had more information, can rightly say that he was treated unfairly.

Ok, back to my debate with Bible John.

Logically, if the God of the Bible exists, surely he could not possibly have anything whatsoever to lose if he acted like the God who I described, and surely mankind would have much to gain, both in this life, and in the next life because only a very few people would end up in Hell.

Why would the God of the Bible want to act like the sinful creation?

What do you mean by sinful? Christian doctors, and skeptic doctors, are trying to prevent and cure all diseases, but God does not want to do that himself. Surely trying to prevent and cure diseases is not sinful. Many Christians, and many skeptics, provide food for hungry people, but although God told Christians via James to feed hungry people, God does not want to do that himself.

James 2:14-22 say "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

James said that if you have food and refuse to feed a hungry person that you are vain, and that your faith is dead. Obviously, God is a hypocrite. He tells Christians that if they refuse to feed hungry people that they are vain and that their faith is dead, but hypocritically has allowed millions of people, including millions of Christians, to die slow, painful deaths from starvation. If God does not want to feed hungry people himself, he most certainly would not have told Christians to feed hungry people. If feeding people is a necessary and worthy goal, then surely it is a good thing for humans AND for God. Matthew 15:32-38 say “Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way. And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude? And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven, and a few little fishes. And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground. And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full. And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.” Since God allowed one million people to die of starvation in the Irish Potato Famine alone, most of whom were Christians, it is a virtual given that those Scriptures are not true.

No amount of human effort could ever feed all of the hungry people in the world, and let everyone know about the Gospel message. It is not likely that Jesus told the disciples to spread the Gospel message to the world and allow hundreds of millions of people to die without hearing the Gospel message. If that is an example of one of God’s strange ways, that does not necessarily mean that it is beneficial to God or to anyone else. If strange ways are harmful ways, then they are not good. Deliberately withholding the Gospel message from people has to be harmful.

God is perfect…

What is your definition of the word “perfect”? Whatever your definition is, regarding a perfect being, it takes one to know one, and neither you nor any other human is one. So, all that you have made is an idle, uncorroborated assertion. In addition, even if God has declared that he is perfect, that is only his own arbitrary opinion.

…and without sin.

Hypocrisy is a sin. Since God tells Christians to feed hungry people, but refuses to feed hungry people himself, he is a hypocrite. Exodus 4:11 says that God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb. That is sinful and unnecessary. Exodus 20:5 says that God punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed. That is sinful and unnecessary. God sometimes injures or kills people, including babies, with hurricanes. That is sinful and unnecessary.

He does not need to act in accordance to the will and the desires of the creation. His ways are not our ways, and neither are His thoughts our thoughts.

That is the problem. Many non-Christians have legitimate desires, such as the desires to have enough food to eat, to be healed of sickness, to have adequate shelter, to have adequate clothing, and to have adequate education. A loving God would be concerned with peoples’ spiritual AND tangible needs, not with just their spiritual needs. If no God exists, then no God would ever be available to meet everyone’s tangible needs in this life.

No loving father would try and remove all problems and obstacles from the life of his son. Humans need some difficulties and challenges to deal with so they can develop good character. However, I am not aware of any evidence that you have to allow a man to be seriously injured or killed, or allow him to starve to death in order to help him develop good character, or to convince him to become a Christian.

You raise a good point. It’s tough to say why exactly God allows evil and suffering in the world. There are no easy or yes or no answers to this one.

I think that one possible explanation to this question comes from the following website http://www.carm.org/questions/suffering.htm.


I will not take up a good deal of my word count quoting your article and commenting on it. Normally, I wouldn’t mind, but when I quoted the parts of the article that I wanted to quote and comment on, it ran my word count up too much. If you wish to comment on some specific parts of the article, then please do so.

No loving, rational being, whether a human or a God, ever intentionally does anything without the hope of benefiting himself and/or someone else at present, or in the future. It has not been reasonably established that God derives any benefits whatsoever from making people blind, deaf, and dumb. It is most certainly not necessary to make a man blind, deaf, and dumb in order to convince him to become a Christian. In fact, one of the best ways to convince a man not to become a Christian would be to make him blind, deaf, and dumb. It most certainly is not necessary to allow a man to starve to death in order to convince him to become a Christian. If God had always provided all of the hungry people in the world with food, and had always told everyone, tangibly, in person, that he was the source of the food, the Christian church would surely be a lot larger than it is today.

Bible John, you spend a good deal of time quoting Scriptures, but quoting Scriptures does not even come close to presenting an adequate defense of the Bible. Rational people are not willing to believe that the Bible is true merely because it says that is it true. You will have to do a good deal more than quote Scriptures to convince more than a few gullible people that they ought to become Christians.

The intent of the human heart is best revealed by what a man does, not what he believes. The most moral skeptics have impeccable character. They are loving in their conduct and their speech. They oppose lying and theft. They are forgiving. They feed hungry people. They are wonderful parents. They are peaceful. They have a heart for people who are sick, and unlike God, they frequently try to help sick people. Some skeptic police officers would be willing to risk their lives to save your life.

Bible John, it is an awful shame that your Biblical presuppositionalism has caused you to falsely judge the hearts and intentions of millions of wonderful, decent skeptics. You trust copies of copies of ancient documents more than you trust empirical evidence today that you can see for yourself.

God endorses unmerciful eternal punishment without parole. Is that one of your examples of God’s perfection? If mercy is anything, it is forgoing unmerciful eternal punishment without parole even when justice, in this case, God’s justice, requires it. Otherwise, mercy is meaningless. Since I am more merciful than God is, if I were somehow able to become more powerful than he is, I would not choose to punish him forever without parole. I would try to rehabilitate him. I assume that you approve of prisoner rehabilitation programs. Any omnipotent and omniscient being who wanted to would easily be able to rehabilitate humans much better than the God of the Bible has.

You cannot be 100% certain that the Bible is true. If it one day turned out that the one true God is a being other than the God of the Bible, and he offered skeptics a parole, you most certainly would approve, especially if YOU were among those who were paroled. True mercy ain’t so bad after all, right?

If the God of the Bible does not exist, today, tangible benefits would be distributed entirely at random according to the laws of physics. I am not aware of any good reasons to assume otherwise. While tangible benefits are frequently distributed to those who are not in greatest need, they are frequently withheld from those who are in greatest need, and frequently without any regard for a person’s worldview. If humans acted like God acts, food, medical needs, and many other needs, would frequently be distributed to people who do not need them, and frequently withheld from people who do need them. There would be revolutions and chaos all over the world.

Paul says that it is not surprising that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, but how could Paul have known which supernatural beings tell the truth, and which tell lies? If a God exists, and inspired the writing of the Bible, the odds are no better than even that Christians or anyone else can determine whether or not he is masquerading as an angel of light. Jesus said that in order for a man to become a Christian, he must love God with all of his heart, soul, and mind. It is not possible to make a commitment like that based upon no better than even odds. That commitment implies PROBABILITY, not POSSIBILITY. This is quite simple. The average sixth grader knows that the word “all” implies PROBABILITY, not POSSIBILITY.

One of the advantages of being a God is that you can accomplish whatever you wish to accomplish. If a deceptive, evil God wanted to conceal his true identity from Christians, he could easily do so.

If the God of the Bible exists, at best, he is mentally incompetent. Unlike God, even Attila the Hun did not kill his own followers, and the babies of his own followers. If God is not mentally incompetent, and became mentally incompetent, how would he act any differently than he acts now? The correct answer is, not much differently, if any differently than he acts now. Any human would went around helping people AND killing people would either be sent to prison, sentenced to death, or sent to a mental institution. Of course, the best conclusion is that the God of the Bible does not exist. If he does exist, he has sure gone out of his way to needlessly make it appear to billions of people that he does not exist.

[Bible John]

Hello everyone and welcome to Round III of this debate. I thank you for following this debate so far. I also want to thank Johnny Skeptic for the professionalism that you have given me in this debate. So many other skeptics could learn from your example you have set here. Thank you for not posting a nasty comment to CERM’s guestbook, or sending my ministry a nasty email.

It appears from the tone of your previous post Johnny that you want me to prove that God exists. Johnny I cannot do this, because God cannot be proved by the standards of man. And regardless God does not need to prove himself to the sinful creation.

The point is, if the God of the Bible exists, he could have done much more than he has done to convince people to become Christians.

God did plenty and yet people still rejected him and continue to reject him. They reject him, because they worship themselves, and not the God of the Bible.

2Ti 3:1-5
King James Version

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

According to the scripture passage above men in the last days will be evil, will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money (NIV), lovers of pleasure, without love (NIV), unthankful, unholy, and having a form of godliness, but denying its power. Sadly this passage is being fulfilled today. People of today fit this passage perfectly. But regardless people today will have no excuse when they go to the judgment seat of Christ. All of humankind has the image of the creator, yet they reject it.

If Jesus had stayed on earth, and had continued to perform miracles all over the world through today, almost no one in the world would doubt that he exists…..Bible John will of coarse claim that today, we have the Holy Spirit as evidence, but many people, including me, are much more convinced by tangible evidence than they are by spiritual evidence. Surely the presence of jesus AND the Holy Spirit would be the very best kind of evidence. Bible John prefers God’s way of holding people accountable for what they OUGHT to know rather than holding people accountable for what they DO know. That is not fair. As far as I know, there are not any laws in democratic countries that invoke the death penalty or life in prison if a person is not aware a law. No many can fairly be held accountable for rejecting a God who he does not know [supposedly] exists.

Johnny the answer and rebuttal to your statements above are twofold. First I will respond to your statement about Jesus performing miracles. You know the Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus in Matt 16:1-4 and asked for a sign from Heaven. Jesus replied and told them that no sign would be given, except for the sign of Jonah. You see Johnny, Jesus does not need to give you a sign that he exists. He does not need to flash your name in the sky, and he does not need to please you to show you that He exists. He exists and there is plenty of evidence of this in the creation. There is no need for a sign from neither heaven, nor a miracle to prove that He exists. He died for the sins of the entire world so that all men can receive the gift of salvation by putting their trust in himself and repenting of the sins and turning to the light that is found only in Christ Jesus.

Regarding your statement on tangible evidence. You know there is a scripture that might persuade you to think otherwise when you seek tangible evidence. In Luke 16:19-31 we read the story of the Rich man and Lazarus. The rich man dies and goes to Hell. Lazarus also dies and goes to Hell. But Lazarus goes to paradise and the Rich Man goes to torment. The Rich man being in agony and torment in the fire, calls to Abraham and asks him to send Lazarus to his brothers, so that they will repent (surely seeing a dead person come back to life is a miraculous sign, and perhaps a sign that Johnny Skeptic seeks). But Abraham would not let Lazarus go to the Rich Man’s brothers, because his brothers had the scriptures, and the Word of God. Abraham said that if his brothers did not repent after reading the scriptures, then they would not repent even if they had a miraculous sign. Likewise I argue against Johnny’s statement for tangible evidence and say that neither Johnny nor other skeptics would be convinced that God exists, even if they had a miraculous sign or signs. They have the scriptures, and have not yet repented, so they will not repent even if one of their dead Atheist friends arises from the dead!

Regarding your statement on God holding people accountable for what they know. Well I believe that God will judge someone by what they do know and by the gifts that have been given to them. There is a parable that we should read here. This parable is found in Matt 25:14-30 & Luke 19:11-27. The Parable speaks about people who have been given Talents or Minas. Some were given more than others, and some used what they were given more than others. Likewise there are many people today that have been given great knowledge, wisdom, talents, abilities, and wealth. And there are others that have little. Some rich use what God has given them, to advance the kingdom, and some poor people do not repent, and do not advance the kingdom. You see God does hold people accountable for what they know and judge’s people in accordance to this. But God does expect people to do something with what He has given them. Like in the parable the person who had the 5 talents went out and gained 5 more. But the person with the 1 talent did nothing with his talent, and was judged because of this. The master in the parable did not expect the person with the 1 talent to gain 5 more, but he did expect the person with the 5 talents to gain more. So in the same way, God expects a return investment on what He has given us.

James said (James 2:14-22) that if you have food and refuse to feed a hungry person that you are in vain, and that your faith is dead. Obviously, God is a hypocrite. He tells Christians that if they refuse to feed hungry people that they are vain and that their faith is dead….If God does not want to feed hungry people himself, he most certainly would not have told Christians to feed hungry people.

Johnny you raise a most excellent point. You know there are many Christians out there that do not feed hungry people, but they should. There are many Christians out there that have no compassion on the lost, but they should. Not saying that I am perfect, nor the best example, but I can very much relate to the failure among Christians in following the commands of the Bible.

In Acts 20 Paul is shown as warning the Ephesians Elders night a day with tears about the false teachers.

Paul writes in Acts 20:29-31
New King James Version

For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.


Sadly there are many Christians in the Church today that are not at all concerned about the war against these (Wolves, Vipers, Snakes, False Teachers, or Spiritual Terrorists). But in reality the war against the Terrorists is right in front of their noses. Many Christian are so filled with the lies of the devil, that battling Satan’s Servants is of little or no concern to them. Johnny not feeding the poor is very bad, but not combating the Terrorists is far worse!

Matt 10:28
New King James Version

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Bible tells us that Satan’s servants are far more dangerous than many Christians give them credit. People follow the hellfire Doctrines of their devils, and they are being deceived into Hell.

What is your definition of the word perfect”? Whatever your definition is, regarding a perfect being, it takes one to know one, and neither you nor any other human is one.

Johnny you have spoken an essential truth in your statement above. You made the first step on a path to Biblical Salvation. Johnny you have realized that no one is perfect, and God seeks a repentant heart.

So all that you have made is an idle, uncorroborated assertion. In addition, even if God has declared that he is perfect, that is only his own arbitrary opinion.

The Bible is my authority. The Bible says that God is perfect and as one studies the Bible one would discover this. Theology Proper is the study of the nature of God. I do not have a dictionary on Systematic Theology, so I cannot paste an article on Theology Proper so here are some food for thought verses that touch on God’s Holiness.

Sin separated from God
Dt 31:17-18; Jos 7:12; 2Ch 24:20; Job 13:24; 23:3,8-9; Ps 78:59-61; Isa 59:1-2; 64:7; Eze 23:18; Ho 9:12; Am 3:2-3; Mi 3:4; Lk 13:27; Mt 7:23; 25:41; Ro 8:7; Heb 12:14

Holiness of God
Holiness of Ex 3:5; Jos 5:15; Ex 15:11; Lev 19:2; 11:44; 20:26; 21:8; Dt 32:4; Jos 24:19; 1Sa 2:2; 6:20; 1Ch 16:10; Job 4:17-19; 6:10; 15:15; 25:5; 34:10; 36:23; Ps 11:7; 18:30; 22:3; 30:4; 33:4-5; 36:6; 47:8; 48:1,10; 60:6; 108:7; 89:35; 92:15; 99:3,5,9; 111:9; 119:142; 145:17; Pr 9:10; Isa 5:16; 6:3; 12:6; 29:19,23; 41:14; 43:14-15; 45:19; 47:4; 49:7; 52:10; Ps 98:1; Isa 57:15; Je 2:5; La 3:38; Eze 39:7,25; 36:21-22; Da 4:8; Ho 11:9; Hab 1:12-13; Mt 5:48; 19:17; Mk 10:18; Lk 18:19; 1:49; Jn 7:28; 17:11; Ro 1:23; Heb 1:8; Jas 1:13; 1Pe 1:15-16; 1Jn 1:5; 2:20; Rev 4:8; 6:10; 15:4

Bible John, you spend a good deal of time quoting scriptures, but quoting scriptures does not even come close to presenting an adequate defense of the Bible. Rational people are not willing to believe that the Bible is true merely because it says that is it true. You will have to do a good deal more than quote scriptures to convince more than a few gullible people that they ought to become Christians.

I think this depends on who you talk too, and the circumstance. Many of the Evangelical Christians would agree with your statement, however many Fundamentalist type would not, as they believe there is no logical argument outside of the scriptures, and as soon as your turn to the world, or the flesh, then you are in error. However I think the approach depends on the circumstances. Long before I was a Fundamentalist Christian and when I was ignorant of the Bible I was in a liberal church. One of my authorities in that church was named Laura, and another Nowell. Both were my Spiritual Leaders at that time. It was at this time when I started to listen to John MacArthur on the radio and read his books. I first started to try to apply the scripture refs that MacArthur often referred to, in this college group. However Laura once scolded me on that, and said there was no need to always quote scriptures to everyone. On another occasion (I was mentoring a mentally retarded individual named Ronnie), and I had told Ronnie that it was perfectly okay to preach the Word on the job, just as long as it did not interfere with his job. Ronnie took my advice literally, and went to his job and told everyone that Jesus loved them. This created a stir at his workplace, ending in Ronnie being FIRED from his place of employment. So Ronnie complained to the pastors of that College group, and on one day Nowell sat me down and had a long talk with me about the advice I was giving Ronnie. But I argued with her (I was still ignorant of the scriptures, but I was starting to listen to John MacArthur, and was trying to apply the Bible to my life). Nowell was very patient and humble with me, but I believe that my arguing with her resulted in disciplinary action. It was okay, as a short time later I went away to Simpson College and it was there were I started to dig deeper into the Bible, and Theology. It was also there were I read more of Pastor John MacArthur’s books, and started to check out his writings with the scriptures. And by golly he was right, and the female pastors/Spiritual Leaders had misled me. The Bible is the authority at all times and in all seasons, and must be preached all the time, in word and in deed. Laura and Nowell said that memorizing and quoting scripture was not necessary, but the Bible says that it is.

New International Version

[Jos 1:8] Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.

[Col 3:16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

[Heb 4:12] For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

This one is one of my favorites. I often quote it on Usenet among other places where I debate skeptics, cults, terrorists/false teachers/devils and liberal Christians.

[2Ti 4:1] In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: [2] Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great patience and careful instruction. [3] For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. [4] They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Bible John, it is an awful shame that your Biblical presuppositionalism has caused you to falsely judge the hearts and intentions of millions of wonderful, decent skeptics.

I only know what the Bible teaches, and it teaches that mankind is in sin and in need of a savior. I would quote more Bible verses, but that would add to my word count. I found Christ and am born again, praise the Lord!

You cannot be 100% certain that the Bible is true.

I can be certain that it is true. Plenty of Archeological finds have proven the Bible stories true. I can’t give you the specific details of the findings, but I'm sure one of the Apologists out there can. Hank Hanegraaf (www.equip.org) or Jason Gastrich (www.jcsm.org) or his creation Conference friends are more equipped in the area of Apologetics than I am, so you are better off asking them for the specifics. Sorry I can’t help you anymore on this topic. But this type of apologetics is not my specialty.

Paul says that it is not surprising that Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

Yes he does say this in 2 Cor 11. One of the top missions of CERM is to challenge Satan's servants with the truth. Many of his Spiritual Terrorists masquerade as servants of righteousness, servants of the truth, and pastors and teachers in the Lord's church. But many of these are devils, antichrists, and workers of Satan who himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Woe unto you oh wicked ones of Satan, for when the Lord comes back you will have no place to hide!

Of course, the best conclusion is that the God of the Bible does not exist. If he does exist, he has sure gone out of his way to needlessly make it appear to billions of people that he does not exist.

Johnny after all I have told you I do not know why you say this. Johnny I challenge you to get in your car or in an airplane and take a trip out to Shasta County California. Once there visit Shasta Lake, Whiskey Town, Shasta Caverns, and other such attractions. After the visit would you still believe that the God of the bible does not exist? Probably so. But maybe, just maybe you might see some evidence in the creation that He does exist, since the created world can’t exist without a God.

[Johnny Skeptic]

Hello everyone,

I am not sure if I said this before, but I am an agnostic.

This is my last post in this four round debate. After the debated is completed, I invite Bible John to participate in the Peanut Gallery.

Assuming for the sake of argument that a supernatural being inspired the writing of the Bible, a good deal of extra-Biblical evidence reasonably proves that he does not have good character. Such being the case, I will not quote any Scriptures at all. It is my position that the extra-Biblical evidence AGAINST God’s character far outweighs the Biblical evidence FOR God’s character. If the Bible’s positive claims about God’s character are true, there ought to be a good deal of corroborative extra-Biblical evidence, both past evidence AND present evidence, that supports what the Bible says about God’s character, but there isn’t. Following is some of the evidence:

God refuses to protect women from rapists, with no reasonably provable benefits for himself or for anyone else.

God refuses to protect people from being seriously injured or killed in automobile accidents that are not their fault, with no reasonably provable benefits for himself or for anyone else.

During the U.S. Civil War, where Christian killed Christian, and brother killed brother, Jefferson Davis was the President of the Southern Confederacy. He was a Christian. Davis believed that the Bible endorsed slavery. Today, most Christians claim that the Bible does not endorse slavery, but for about 90% of the time since the founding of Christianity, most Christians did believe that the Bible endorses slavery. If God opposes slavery, if he had made a brief appearance to Davis, tangibly, in person, he could easily have changed Davis’ mind. In addition, God could easily have made certain that what the Bible says about slavery was written in terms that could not be misinterpreted. That was obviously not God’s intention. As a result, for about 90% of the time since Christianity was founded, mankind has paid a very dear price for his negligence. Dr. Robert Price told me that in the first century, a time when the vast majority of Christians endorsed slavery, some Sophists and Stoics opposed it.

In the Irish Potato Famine, God allowed one million people to die of starvation, with no reasonably provable benefits for himself or for anyone else. Bible John says:

You know there are many Christians out there that do not feed hungry people, but they should. There are many Christians out there that have no compassion on the lost, but they should. Not saying that I am perfect, nor the best example, but I can very much relate to the failure among Christians in following the commands of the Bible.

However, human effort alone could never prevent all of the harm that God is responsible for. For instance, if God exists, there is no such thing as a natural disaster. If God created the heavens and the earth, including the weather, he did so supernaturally, not naturally. That includes Hurricane Katrina. If God turned control of the weather over to the Devil, he shouldn’t have. From a Christian perspective, hurricanes do not create themselves and go wherever they want to go, and nothing can happen that is not caused or allowed by God. Hurricanes and locusts destroy food supplies. God created hurricanes and locusts, and the bacteria (Bubonic Plague) that killed one fourth of the people in Europe. If the Devil created the bacteria, he could only have done so with God’s empowerment and permission. No man can starve to death without God causing it or allowing it. No loving God would ever allow a person to starve to death. God is no less culpable for allowing people to starve to death than anyone else is, especially since no one is as able to feed hungry people as he is.

If there are rewards and risks associated with accepting Christianity, surely all skeptics would want to know about it. There is no other possible conclusion. Virtually all skeptics are pleased that we know that beneficial microorganisms (rewards) and harmful microorganisms (risks) exist. So, if there are actually rewards and risks associated with accepting Christianity, it is quite natural that skeptics would want to know about it, even much more so than wanting to know about the existence of microorganisms since the rewards and risks regarding accepting the Bible involve eternity.

Ever since Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, somehow, by genetics or by some other means, God’s has ensured that everyone must commit sins at least some of the time by passing down a sinful nature to all successive generations. Otherwise, some people would be perfect and would not need to become saved.

Today, if God distributes tangible benefits, it is quite odd that he does so in exactly the same manner that we would expect if he does not exist. If God does not exist, all tangible benefits would be indiscriminately distributed entirely at random according to the laws of physics without any regard for a person’s needs or worldview, and the only benefits that a man could ask God for and be assured that he would receive would be subjective spiritual/emotional benefits. How is that scenario any different from the scenario that we have today?

If God were mentally incompetent, how would he act any differently that he acts now? The correct answer is, not any differently at all. No mentally competent being helps people AND kills people, and provides food for people AND allows people to starve to death. If God exists, at best, he is mentally incompetent.

God has not nearly done everything that he can in order to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell. If the God of the Bible exists, the vast majority of the people in the world are not aware of it, most of whom know about the Bible. Atheists believe that no being exists who is able to create a universe. If God showed up and created a new galaxy, many people would become Christians who were not previously convinced, including some atheists. God could not possibly have anything to gain by refusing to do this, and the people who would become Christians if he did have lost a lot. It is not a question of what God NEEDS to do, but what he OUGHT to do, and what he is ABLE to do, if he wants as many people as possible to go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell. It is a question of how badly God wants people to go to heaven, and not to hell.

I am much more benevolent and merciful than God is. God endorses unmerciful eternal punishment without parole. I would never do that. If mercy is anything, it is forgoing eternal punishment without parole even when justice, in this case, God’s justice, requires it. Otherwise, mercy is meaningless. If I had the power to do anything that I wanted to do, and chose to rule the world, I would not run a government OF the people, or a government BY the people, but I would run a government FOR the people. I would be much more appreciated than God is, and I would have a lot more followers. I would make sure that everyone knew that I exist. I would not mind being tested and questioned at all because I would not want to create doubt, wars, and hatred by requiring faith. If you want to reveal your specific existence and will to people, the last thing that you would do would be to require faith. Requiring faith greatly reduces the number of people who will accept you. I would protect women from rapists, something that God refuses to do. I would heal all of the sick people in the world, something that Christians doctors are trying to do, and something that God refuses to do. I would feed all of the hungry people in the world, something that God refuses to do.

I would not create a perfect world. Humans need to have some difficulties and obstacles to overcome in order to develop good character, and to have some relatively bad days so they can enjoy their good days. Without having some relatively bad days as a means of comparison, no one would be able to appreciate their good days. However, it most certainly is not necessary for a man to starve to death in order for him to develop good character. If fact, many people have given up Christianity, or refused to become Christians because they know that if the God of the Bible exists, he does not have good character. Some babies have been born with serious birth defects, have suffered needlessly for a few days, and died. In cases where the parents were Christians, some of them gave up Christianity as a result, and who can blame them? Only an evil or mentally incompetent God would test people knowing that some of his tests will result in them going to hell.

In conclusion, Bible John can quote all of the Scriptures that he wants, but the extra-Biblical evidence that God has poor character is far greater than the Biblical evidence that God has good character.

[Bible John]

Hello everyone and welcome to the last round of this debate.

I know I've already said this before, but let me say it again. I am a Fundamentalist Christian.

After the debated is completed, I invite Bible John to participate in the Peanut Gallery.

I will look even more forward to participating in the Peanut Galleries ever since Dave left.


Assuming for the sake of argument that a supernatural being inspired the writing of the Bible, a good deal of extra-Biblical evidence reasonably proves that he does not have good character.


Johnny I believe that the scriptures are quite clear that God did write the Bible through men whom were moved by the Holy Spirit.

New King James Version

[2Pe 1:20] knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, [21] for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

[2Ti 3:16] All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Regarding your statement that God does not have good character, I would strongly disagree. God has great character, and even sent His very son to die for the sins of mankind. Why is this a bad thing? I believe I have asked you this before, but you did not answer. Why is this? How would you respond if someone died for you or if someone made a great sacrifice for you? Would you not be grateful and would you not honor this person after the great sacrifice? If so, why then not honor God? Why continue to say that He does not have good character? God has great character and His Holiness is so great that I could never understand it. I’m a sinful being without any comprehension of God outside of His Holy word.

Such being the case, I will not quote any Scriptures at all.

Which is an expected behavior for someone like yourself. But I have to wonder. If you are going to debunk God’s character, how can you do so without actually reading His book the Bible? Is this kinda like someone writing a slanderous review of a book on amazon.com that they never read? Johnny you need to read the Bible if you want to actually say that God has poor character.

My 1st debate opponent was my greatest challenge because he actually studied the Bible, and the original texts. No question he had the greater grasp on the Greek and Hebrew in the debate. Perhaps it would help in your debates if you actually studied the topics that you are debating.

During the U.S. Civil War, where Christian killed Christian, and brother killed brother, Jefferson Davis was the President of the Southern Confederacy. He was a Christian. Davis believed that the Bible endorsed slavery. Today, most Christians claim that the Bible does not endorse slavery, but for about 90% of the time since the founding of Christianity, most Christians did believe that the Bible endorses slavery.

This is a SECONDARY non-Orthodox issue. There are dozens of secondary issues in the Bible that divides the church today. For example your last opponent Jason Gastrich holds to some Charismatic doctrines and practices. I'm a Fundamentalist and am against any type of Charismatic activity, practice, philosophy or doctrine. But I do not believe in separation on the secondary non-Orthodox issues in Christendom.

If God exists, there is no such thing as a natural disaster.

Statements like these are why I strongly encourage you to take an Introduction to Christian Theology course. I am going to define for you the difference between Natural and Moral Evil as you clearly do not understand the difference.

From the New Unger’s Bible Dictionary

Natural Evil
Physical Evil It is often called natural evil and is disorder in the physical world. Such physical causes as militate against physical well being are therefore called evils. That such evils are, to some extent at least, the effect or penalty of sin is a clear teaching of Scripture (Ge 3:10-12; 6:13). To what extent physical sufferings are the necessary means to greater good is, however, a great question.

Moral Evil
Moral Evil This is sin, disorder in the moral world. It is the failure of rational and free beings to conform in character and conduct to the will of God. This is the greatest evil (See Ro 1:18-32). How the existence of evil is compatible with the goodness of God is the question of theodicy. For discussion of moral evil See Sin. Bibliography: C. S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain (1965); W. Fitch, God and Evil (1969); A. E. Wilder- Smith, The Paradox of Pain (1971); J. W. Wenham, The Goodness of God (1974).

That includes Hurricane Katrina. If God turned control of the weather over to the Devil, he shouldn’t have. From a Christian perspective, hurricanes do not create themselves and go wherever they want to go, and nothing can happen that is not caused or allowed by God. Hurricanes and locusts destroy food supplies. God created hurricanes and locusts, and the bacteria (Bubonic Plague) that killed one fourth of the people in Europe. If the Devil created the bacteria, he could only have done so with God’s empowerment and permission. No man can starve to death without God causing it or allowing it. No loving God would ever allow a person to starve to death. God is no less culpable for allowing people to starve to death than anyone else is, especially since no one is as able to feed hungry people as he is.

Johnny in response I am going to ask you a few questions.

1. Did God create Adolph Hitler?
2. Did Adolph Hitler have a FreeWill in life, or did God control him like a puppet?
3. If Hitler did have a FreeWill, then why blame the mass murder of 6 million Jews on God?


If there are rewards and risks associated with accepting Christianity, surely all skeptics would want to know about it. There is no other possible conclusion.

There are many rewards but also many risks associated with Christianity.

Rewards

ETERNAL LIFE

John 3:16-17
John 6:47
1 John 2:25
1 John 5:13
John 5:28-29

John 11:25-26
King James Version
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

TREASURE IN HEAVEN

New International Version
Matt 6:19-20
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Risks

PERSECUTION

King James Version
John 15:18-20
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

New International Version
2 Timothy 3:12
In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

You see Johnny there are eternal rewards, yet much risk to being a Christian. You get saved, and you will have eternal rewards, but you may also be persecuted in this life.

Ever since Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, somehow, by genetics or by some other means, God’s has ensured that everyone must commit sins at least some of the time by passing down a sinful nature to all successive generations. Otherwise, some people would be perfect and would not need to become saved.

Correct. Since Adam all of mankind is born into sin. But God sent his son Jesus Christ (the second Adam) to pay for the sins of all of mankind.

If God exists, at best, he is mentally incompetent.

You would blaspheme the Lord God your maker? God have mercy on you Johnny! There will come a day when you will bow before him, and you will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

God has not nearly done everything that he can in order to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell.

Are we here to debate FreeWill vs. Predestination? Conditional Election vs. Unconditional Election? I believe that the Bible is very clear in that Christ died for all mankind, and not just for the elect, as the hyper Calvinist would argue.

If the God of the Bible exists, the vast majority of the people in the world are not aware of it, most of whom know about the Bible.

They are aware of it, since they are aware of General Revelation and they have heard the gospel message.

Atheists believe that no being exists who is able to create a universe. If God showed up and created a new galaxy, many people would become Christians who were not previously convinced, including some atheists.

They would do no such thing! But even if they did, they would not be true disciples, unless they repented of their evil deeds.

New International Version

[Mt 12:39] He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

It is a question of how badly God wants people to go to heaven, and not to hell.

I think if you were in a debate with a Hyper Calvinist, they would not argue, because they believe that God chooses certain people for Heaven and many more for Hell.

If you were in a debate with one of the Word of Faith Spiritual Terrorists, then they would completely agree with you Johnny!

I am much more benevolent and merciful than God is. God endorses unmerciful eternal punishment without parole. I would never do that. If mercy is anything, it is forgoing eternal punishment without parole even when justice, in this case, God’s justice, requires it.

I admit that I cannot fully understand this as well. I am neither in support of Annihilation nor Universalistic Theology, but at the same time I cannot understand many of my friends in the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

In conclusion, Bible John can quote all of the Scriptures that he wants,

That’s right. The Bible is my authority and the Sword of the Spirit. I seek to learn it, understand it, memorize it, and recite it. So sorry you are offended that I recite it so often, but such was predicted in the Bible.

New International Version

[1Co 1:18] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

[1Co 2:14] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

but the extra-Biblical evidence that God has poor character is far greater than the Biblical evidence that God has good character.

I would STRONGLY disagree with you. One day all mankind will go before God, and give an account of their lives, and the way that they lived, and each person might be asked why they individually rejected him.

New International Version

[Ro 14:11] It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’”
[12] So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Likewise God will separate the goats from the sheep on that Great Day.

English Standard Version
Matt 25:31-44

THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS
[Mt 25:31] “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [33] And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. [34] Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? [38] And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? [39] And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' [40] And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' [41] “Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, [43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' [44] Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'

Thanks Johnny for the debate and I we will continue our discussions in the Peanut Galleries.

God bless,

John Wolf
Church Education Resource Ministries
www.cerm.info

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

The formal debate is now complete. We would like to thank Johnny Skeptic and Bible John for their participation. Discussion can be continued in the Peanut Gallery.

- NS, FD Moderator