A Rant About My Kids

[fromdownunder]

OK, I have three kids (I still call them my kids although they are all adults, and my youngest just turned 21 a week or so ago).

My eldest daughter is a born again fundie frootloop. believes in a 6,000 year old earth, and thinks that the second coming is just around the corner. Her sect is connected to CMI Australia (formerly AiG before Ham took the name, the money and the mailing list and pissed off to America). She had a very bad experience many years ago, some long time members may recall me posting about it, which I believe led indirectly to this, but I genuinely think that her belief in her God is what keeps her going.

My younger daughter is a "notional" Christian of the same sect but is divorced, currently lives with her partner who is an atheist like me, and seems pretty well put together.

My son (the one who just turned 21, is actually a lay preacher at the same church. I even gave him some help on public speaking when he was nervous about his first sermon. I suspect that he is there more for the social contact and friendship rather than genuine belief. He has a partner (whom, because of comments he has made, I suspect that he has slept with, but I have not asked, it is none of my business) and does not appear overtly religious outside of the church.

Occasionally, particularly with my fundie frootloop daughter, and my son usually in a more joking manner, we do discuss the Bible and evolution, and I have at least in part, put a seed of doubt in her mind about "God's method of creating life" - make them walk before they can run.

The point, if any - it seems more of a rant as I read it and elaborate on it - of this thread is that I love and adore, and am proud of all of them. I would not try and talk them out of their beliefs.

As a supposed free thinker, I can accept that they have made their own decisions on their own terms, and I cannot and will not argue with those decisions. I can and will question the reality of what they believe, and I can argue from my POV as to why I think they are wrong, when I think that they are wrong. Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyway, I am a bit pissed (that's Australian for pissed), so I may not respond tonight, but, thanks for reading my rant.

Norm

[WishboneDawn]

I just have to say it must take a lot of strength not to run out, grab your kids and shake the living daylights out of them. Kudos. It's most likely one of those things they'll treasure in you.

[fromdownunder]

Dawn, I don't think it is strength as much as "hard wired" into me. I know that sounds a bit clinical, but it's not meant to be. Thanks for your comments.

I think it is nice that they still visit me at least a couple of times a week (even if Nathan only comes for the satellite TV wrestling, movies and Family Guy and for a feed or two) :)

My eldest daughter is virtually inoccent of life. I am not trying to be rude in saying that. And my other daughter has built a house literally one minute's walk from where I live. For some stupid reason, despite their beliefs, and my unbelief, they seem to think that the sun shines out of my arse!

Norm

[Janus]

Just out of curiosity, how did you raise your children? Were you an atheist when they were around age 10?

[Bright Life]

For some stupid reason, despite their beliefs, and my unbelief, they seem to think that the sun shines out of my arse!

Norm

That's awesome. You must be a great dad!

[garrisonjj]

So what! Accept them and love them as usual. If they want to believe in superstition,,,so be it. No big deal.They will come around someday like all rational thinkers. be well!

[Jennie]

Family is more important than philosophy. :)

[Kassiana]

Sounds like you have some great kids. You're blessed. (as in "lucky," not as in "deities are pushing good stuff at you")

[Godless Dave]

The point, if any - it seems more of a rant as I read it and elaborate on it - of this thread is that I love and adore, and am proud of all of them. I would not try and talk them out of their beliefs.

As a supposed free thinker, I can accept that they have made their own decisions on their own terms, and I cannot and will not argue with those decisions. I can and will question the reality of what they believe, and I can argue from my POV as to why I think they are wrong, when I think that they are wrong. Nothing more, nothing less.

You seem to be saying that you respect the ability of your adult children to think for themselves and believe what they choose, even if it's not what you believe and you think it's incorrect. Congratulations, you have passed Advanced Parenting, a higher level course that many parents don't ever make it to.

[RaveyDavey]

How did they get exposed to 'god' with an atheist Dad? Through school or uni? Were you quite quiet on that side of things when they were growing up?

[djrafikie]

oh dear, I would be upset too! I am struggling to keep my views away from my kid, and she's only 4!!! I just refuse to let anyone discuss religion in front of her, past any questions she may ask. Other people totally ignore that, I have had big arguments with her nursery (re:you may not teach my daughter X unless you also tell her about Y) and they treat me like a criminal.

I am determined that she will make her own mind up, but dammit, if she came out with fundie stuff at 17 I would find I pretty hard not to EXPLODE.

[orac]

Family is more important than philosophy. :)
Yes, but if 10,000 people catch a horrible disease and your daughter is the only one of them who refuses to take medication purely because of her superstitious philosophy and thus is the only one who doesn't make a full recovery, then you have one dead daughter - purely because of philosophy.

Superstition kills actual real people. And those people have families.

Therefore, in the interests of saving the "family" which you love so much, there's something to be said for not coddling ignorant superstition.

Sure, there's usually not much you can do about it, but that doesn't mean you have to admire stupidity just because it's attached to a person genetically related to you, even if you can still love the person.

Love the person, hate the stupidity. Trite sayings aren't just for theists. ;)

[fromdownunder]

Just out of curiosity, how did you raise your children? Were you an atheist when they were around age 10?

How did they get exposed to 'god' with an atheist Dad? Through school or uni? Were you quite quiet on that side of things when they were growing up?

I have been notionally an atheist for probably about 30 years or more. I have been "active" insofar as I publicly defend my views, for about 10.

My ex-wife left me (she is not particularly religious, but I think she believes in a God of some form or another) and took the kids when the girls were about 13 and 12 and Nathan was under 2. I never discussed religion at all with them, and we never went to church after I stopped being the Organist at my local CofE in about 1975 (note this was not cause and effect. I played not because of religion, but because I simply enjoyed it - it was a lovely Hammond Organ. It was a gratis job.

We had a joint custody agreement, so I saw them whenever I wanted to, every weekend and often during the week. My eldest daughter gained "religion" at about 15 after she saw her then boyfriend drive his car accidentally into a tree and die. This happened about 100 metres from where she was standing. At the funeral a guy made, what was to me a fairly repulsive religious speech, but she got caught up in the hype, and started attending his fundie church.

I think the other two went to the church with her (eventually) perhaps out of love and sympathy, and Nathan in particular "caught the bug".

Norm

[fromdownunder]

Love the person, hate the stupidity. Trite sayings aren't just for theists. ;)

:) :) :)

Norm

[Jobar]

My favorite brother, and his family, are rather the same. We get by mostly on silence. Which is a pity, because I honestly think that they are paying large sums of their hard-earned money for pie in the sky. And the brainwashing tendencies of their church leads them to support policies and politicians which are damaging to them, and to me, in both short and long term.

I'm torn; do I try to attack their faith, and all too possibly in the process damage or destroy the family closeness we share? Or do I keep my silence, smile and keep my lip zipped, and leave them to the con which robs them of their money and of their intellectual potential?

I've chosen your path too, Norm. I almost never tax them with it, unless they bring up the subject; though I have tried to get my brother and his older sons to post here on II. Jim frankly admits he's afraid to! I've prodded them a bit about how *they're* the ones who are instructed by their 'saviour' to preach to *me* but they never do that because I am well known for being able to preach back. (And better, too!)

I guess that my best advice is to leave them no doubt as to your opinions on the matter, or to your willingness to talk to them about it if they feel up for it; and if they do talk about it, to stop when they start getting upset, and work hard not to get upset yourself, or hold their beliefs against them outside those discussions.

My brother's oldest son is in college, and is serving as a youth pastor for a church in eastern Alabama. He says he's thinking about divinity school. I've told him straight on that if he does that, he first has to sit down and face my arguments head-on; if and when that happens, I'll be sure to post about it here.

[RAFH]

For some stupid reason, despite their beliefs, and my unbelief, they seem to think that the sun shines out of my arse!
Norm

Have you checked your arse lately, maybe the sun do shine out of it?

Its strange when your kids 'backstep' into religion. Neither my ex nor I were religious, fairly strongly not so. We were very up front about our beliefs but not indoctrinating. I made sure our one and only daugher was exposed to all the major religions and had a good working knowledge of them including spending time alone with adherents of each. But we had a deteriorating relationship over about 10 years or so and when she was a junior/senior in high school, the daughter got involved with some religious friends and particularly a very religious boy. Then she went off to school on the mainland and other religious boys, finally ending up catholic. During this trend her grandmother on her mom's side, to whom she was very close, died of emphysema and complications, it wasn't easy. Then her grandfather on my side, to who she was even closer, died of alzheimers/parkinsons and complications and it was even more difficult than the first. Then we, her parents finally had it with pretending and divorced and though it was not a vicious affair no divorce is easy on the kids, no matter what age. So she probably needed something to lean on.

She's gotten married and has lost a lot of the god-awe. We've never really discussed it mostly because she's a long ways away and we don't see each other that much, though we talk weekly and email a lot. I get the sense she's pretty much left the catholic church, which I do applaud. They aren't the nuttiest but they do tend to be rather inclusive/intrusive in one's life.

I was very disappointed when she informed me of her catholicism (we had been estranged for a couple years after the divorce), that really bothered me. I felt very rejected. Fortunately or unfortunately, I had lots of other distractions, remarriage (not related to the divorce, just lucky), work and then serious chronic illness so I never really had a chance to deal with it.

I am very glad now we are reconciled and very close. Still, we seem to avoid religion very successfully. She'll be coming here for a couple of weeks in January with her new daughter and hopefully we can clear that issue then. While I care, its about her and her satisfaction with her life, not that she's doing this or believing that. I guess it would bother me if she was really into something I considered delusional, as much as if she were into some other kind of cult.

As long as your kids are talking to you fromdownunder and that flashlight in your bum keeps working, I guess you are doing alrighty. I guess I was lucky I never had to resort to that tactic.