Aids: man-made?

[Ima_realist]

Hi all, I have always wondered as to the true origin of Aids and so today I decided to look into it briefly, why I didn't do it sooner I don't know. In looking into it I came across a multitude of websites (not the best sources I know, but bear with me please) with some very interesting ideas. I am not usualy prone to flights of fancy and I am usually quite astute in my critical assements. However, I found that the ideas behind this particular theory seem hold more weight than the official version (the official version being that it originated from Chimpaneez in southern Cameroon).

Here is one of the many websites, please read it and tell me what you think. I couldnt think of a more intellectual arena to post this and I know I will get some really good feedback.

http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read.html?id=5420

[TollHouse]

You might get better responses if you asked the scientists in the science board. I can only imagine that a man-made virus on the order of AIDS is pure science fiction fantasy.

[Ima_realist]

Yeah you're probably right, I feel silly for giving it a second thought but it is definatly interesting. Give the website a read if you will.

I'll move this post as soon as i figure out how!

[pariah]

There are several strange ideas. Another one is about a mad scientist living in the Dutch Congo trying to create an oral polio vaccine using chimpanzee cultures that had SIV.

[Ima_realist]

Yes I read about that. It is said that they used Chimpanzee liver in the vaccine and it spread that way. It was debunked later however as they found the original samples, tested them and found they contained no traces of Chimp.

[theyeti]

HIV antibodies have been found from a British soldier who died in Africa back in the 1950s if I recall. The virus quite clearly predates our technological ability to create it.

theyeti

[Happy Wonderer]

Moving to science from PD

[Malachi151]

I think that the origins of AIDS, and its evolutionary lineage have already been discovered and documents. It came from a primate vorus that people got when eating chimpanzee bush meat in Africa. The virus doesn't affect the chimps, but it is deadly to humans. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that evolution isn't real and there are no such things as mutations and organisms/ viruses that jump hosts, etc..... :rolleyes:

[CanoeMan]

I ridicule you for your gullibillity :)

Seriously, though. Reality is rarely as mysterious as the conspiracy theories try to make it. There's no reason to believe AIDS is man made, any more than there is reason to think the Black Plauge was man made.

[Ima_realist]

I agree with you there, I am a big fan of Occums Razor :D and I never usualy fall for this type of thing. But there's just something about it! It's apperently never actually been proven where AIDS came from, there have only been theories and to be honest, the theory presented on that website seems holds more weight than the official version.

If what it says is true (about it starting in manhatten etc) then there's a definate cause for concern. The only problem is I don't know about the reliability of the author or how well sourced the article is. He is apparently a homosexual- aids sufferer so maybe it's all a personal grudge on his part.

[Coragyps]

HIV antibodies have been found from a British soldier who died in Africa back in the 1950s

Merchant sailor, and I think he died back home in England. But yes, in the 50's. HIV is just another natural virus - it's just meaner than some.

[Ima_realist]

That's me told, also no, you won't find me arguing against evolution... ;)

P.S has anyone read the website?

[teotwin]

P.S has anyone read the website?

I had a look. He builds his premise that HIV is a deliberate effort to target first American homosexual men and then black Africans by showing that the disease originated in the US.

The first AIDS cases were uncovered in Manhattan in 1979.

Which is quite clearly not the same as saying:

The epidemic did not begin in Africa.

At that time there were no reported African cases. In fact, the AIDS epidemic in Africa did not begin until the autumn of 1982 at the earliest.

This is based on first reported cases. I would contend that in the late 1970s/early 1980s the last thing on anyone's minds in central Africa was testing for an unknown pathogen, and therefore this is no indicator at all of the actual infection origin (the case of the 1950s sailor has already been mentioned.

Furthermore, it is biologically impossible for a purported sexually-transmitted and blood borne "virus out of Africa" to infect only young, white, healthy men in Manhattan!

Why, exactly? HIV is not (AFAIK, it's certainly harder to catch than the common cold for example (or is that comparing apples and oranges?)) a highly infectious disease and spreads most easily by high risk behaviour such as could be found in a certain subset of the early 1980s male gay community. Hardly a scientific marvel.

The Program was winding down in 1978, at the exact time when government scientists were also enrolling thousands of gay men in New York City to serve as guinea pigs in the hepatitis B experiment that took place that same year at the New York Blood Center in Manhattan. In 1979 the first cases of AIDS in gay men were reported from Manhattan. Coincidence? I think not.

Why not? In fact, given that HIV has quite an incubation period before manifesting external signs, this probably means that the first reported cases were infected before the vaccinations took place.

And so on. For an MD, not so much with the convincing arguments.

[paradigm9]

HIV antibodies have been found from a British soldier who died in Africa back in the 1950s if I recall.

the sailor was from the 70's, he was norwegian...the sample in the 50's was the earliest HIV sample. since we have the plasma we have a lot more than just the antibodies. it was HIV-1 and sequence verified...he was seropositive and from Congo. (there were actually 21 samples that tested seropositive.)

the molecular evolution is pretty well mapped and there arent any big mysteries.

here's the Nature review of the sequencing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9468138&query_hl=14&itool=pubmed_docsum

[Loren Pechtel]

Lets look at it from the opposite direction: What would it take to make the HIV virus?

The best geneticists still can't model *EXACTLY* how HIV behaves. Thus there's no way the virus was simply synthesized--being able to synthesize something on demand means being able to model how it's going to behave in use so you know what to make.

Thus we are left with the only way of making it being evolving it from a naturally-existing virus such as SIV. Unfortunately, it only affects humans. Thus you'll need to use at least human tissue as the growth medium and you'll need actual humans to see what it does to a person. Note, however, how slow the cycle is in humans. Each test generation will need a lot of humans and run for many years.

Realistically this means it takes many decades and you'll have to kill tens of thousands of people at a minimum in your testing. How do you hide a project of this size??

Furthermore, it was seen by 1980. That means that even with phenomenal luck they would have had to start the project in the earliest part of the last century. This was long before they even knew about DNA and thus they would have had no idea of how to go about forced evolution. If they didn't try to force it, just breed it, the timeline would have been *FAR* longer--and that would mean going back to before they even knew what a virus was.

[dragoon]

I think that the origins of AIDS, and its evolutionary lineage have already been discovered and documents. It came from a primate vorus that people got when eating chimpanzee bush meat in Africa. The virus doesn't affect the chimps, but it is deadly to humans. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that evolution isn't real and there are no such things as mutations and organisms/ viruses that jump hosts, etc..... :rolleyes:

Perhaps it did come from a similar Chimp virus, but the HIV is a very fragile thing and can't live outside a living cell. Cooking and eating "bush meat" certainly wouldn't have transmitted it to humans. Perhaps a slim case could be made for infection while butchering Chimps with cut hands.

I would think that a higher tech transmission rout, involving medical technology and/or experimentation might be more likely.

And then there's always some kind of really sick interspecies sexual contact that might have caused it to appear in humans. I have never been so depraved as to wish to attend or view such a thing, but when I was a kid in the Navy in San Diego, the low-lifes in the barracks use to titillate themselves with talk about "Donkey Shows" down in nearby Tijuana. Point being, humans are not incapable of such things and this might be the route if HIV has a zoonotic origin.

Yuck!!

[ARISCE]

Read Edward Hooper's book "THE RIVER". Very thorough. He also has a website: http://www.aidsorigins.com/

[drewjmore]

Cooking and eating "bush meat"
Not everyone cooks meat before eating it.

[anthrosciguy]

Merchant sailor, and I think he died back home in England. But yes, in the 50's. HIV is just another natural virus - it's just meaner than some.

I just read -- and I can't remember where, sorry, but it seemed a good source -- that there is a lot of reason to suspect this story. Apparently the sample supposedly from this person was not from that person, and other samples which were supposedly from him did not show any signs of HIV.

The likely source of initial infection is a that HIV is a mutation from SIV (correct disease? correct terminology? I forget, but you know what I mean) present in a monkey or ape source and transmitted to humans due to bushmeat use. And eating really doesn't probably have anything to do with it. When you kill and butcher an animal you typically get blood on you, and any cuts or scratches you have on your hands or arms make infection possible.

[Odin2006]

The people who tend to beleive the "HIV is man-made" BS seem to have a tendency of being African ideologues who try to blame everything on white Westerners.

[MortalWombat]

The likely source of initial infection is a that HIV is a mutation from SIV (correct disease? correct terminology? I forget, but you know what I mean) present in a monkey or ape source
Correct (http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v397/n6718/abs/397436a0_fs.html)

[blkgayatheist]

I dont believe it was man made, but given what we know about Indians and smallpox and black men with syphillis and the tuskegee experiments, I can understand why people believe it

[SophistiCat]

Read Edward Hooper's book "THE RIVER". Very thorough. He also has a website: http://www.aidsorigins.com/

Another cook :rolleyes: When I see words like "powerful political groupings" and "major cover-up", I stop reading. Some, on the other hand, will jump on any conspiracy theory, no matter how improbable. I wonder what's the deal with that?

[teotwin]

Some, on the other hand, will jump on any conspiracy theory, no matter how improbable. I wonder what's the deal with that?

I don't know. It's a shame no-one like that ever comes to IIDB. We could ask them.

[ARISCE]

Another cook :rolleyes: When I see words like "powerful political groupings" and "major cover-up", I stop reading. Some, on the other hand, will jump on any conspiracy theory, no matter how improbable. I wonder what's the deal with that?

I think you mean "kook". You are a member of IIDB and you ask: what"s the deal with that? Makes me wonder!:rolleyes:

[maybemaybenot]

Honestly, do people think that our government, let alone any other government is slick enough to make something like HIV, then keep it under wraps. Think..think...

[Cycad]

There are several strange ideas. Another one is about a mad scientist living in the Dutch Congo trying to create an oral polio vaccine using chimpanzee cultures that had SIV.


Dutch Congo ?
That is indeed a very strange idea :)

[Ima_realist]

Thanks for the informative answers all. Rest assured I feel reasonably silly for giving it a second look. You have to admit it made for an interesting discussion though...