Who led the wise men to Jesus?

[Johnny Skeptic]

I look forward to reading comments from readers.

[Pavlov's Dog]

Didn't they follow a star or something?

[GakuseiDon]

I don't know if they actually "followed" a star, at least according to the story in Matthew. The synopsis is:

1. Wise men see a star, that to them signalled the birth of the "King of the Jews". So naturally they go to Jerusalem, and see Herod.
2. Herod tells them to go to Bethlehem and asks them "When did the star appear?" This means that Herod (and presumably the other astrologers in the area) didn't notice this star.
3. From their answer, Herod assumes that the child was born up to two years before. So it appears that the wise men's journey took up to two years.
4. When the wise men get to Bethlehem, they see the star "standing over" where Jesus lay. Interestingly, they rejoice when they see the star "standing over the child" (Mat 2:10), implying that they weren't led by the star.

So the answer is that Herod led them to the child in Bethlehem. The star helped them locate the child within Bethlehem.

[DBT]

The three wise men were probably meant to be astrologers.

[Johnny Skeptic]

So the answer is that Herod led them to the child in Bethlehem. The star helped them locate the child within Bethlehem.

Why did the wise men go to Herod? The star rose in the east, but they travelled west. How was the star able to lead the wise men to Jesus? In my opinion, the story is a lie, an attempt by Matthew to make it appear that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, thereby fulfilling Micah 5:2. If so, the attempt failed because there is not any credible evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. In addition, Micah 5:2 mentions a person who would become ruler in Israel. Jesus did not become ruler in Israel.

[GakuseiDon]

Why did the wise men go to Herod? The star rose in the east, but they travelled west. How was the star able to lead the wise men to Jesus?
The star DIDN'T lead them to Jesus. They saw the star, which indicated to them that a King of the Jews was born. So they went to Jerusalem. The star didn't lead them at all, so it didn't matter whether it rose in the east or the west.

In my opinion, the story is a lie, an attempt by Matthew to make it appear that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, thereby fulfilling Micah 5:2.
Yes, no real argument there, though I don't think there is enough evidence to call it a "lie".

If so, the attempt failed because there is not any credible evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. In addition, Micah 5:2 mentions a person who would become ruler in Israel. Jesus did not become ruler in Israel.
I honestly don't care. That is your own obsession.

[aa5874]

Now, as I think about the story of the wise men, something odd strikes me. The wise men saw a star, which they claim signifies the birth of the King of the Jews. They cannot locate this new born King, Herod himself does not know about this King.

The wise men eventually find this new born, strange enough without any guidance from God, but as soon as the child is found, God then intervenes and tells the wise men not to tell Herod.

Now wouldn't God have spared all those innocent children lives if He told the wise men where this new born King was, before they went and ask Herod. God appears to be not intelligent and cares only about His Son.

And the story has a serious flaw. This new born babe was never the King of the Jews. The wise men were fools.

[Clivedurdle]

Magi!

Members of Celtic priesthoods similar to (identical with?) that lot Caesar had problems with on the Isle of Mons?

Another cultural thread, a spice, a herb to put into this now very old marinade!

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=167032

(Forget the esus bit!)

[Clivedurdle]

Druidism was replete with triadic concepts:

"Worship the gods, be manly, tell the truth"

The Druids were one part of a three fold group of scholars in Celtic societies across Europe and the Middle East - the Druids who are said to have had a twenty year training in the arts of memory, and were the priest phlosophers - magi does seem to be related, the second group Vatis were the Poets - a modern version is Fein or Finian. The third group were the Bards. Poets and Druids were similar - both were skilled in magic . Women were trained in all three orders. The Bards were feared because of their skills of oratory and satire and praise.

Quote:
The Celtic tribe consisted of the King, the men of learning - Druids, Prophets and Bards, the warriors and finally the artisans and craftsmen; the unskilled people were regarded as being of little consequence. The Druid had many functions, his training was long and arduous...he had several important roles priest, prophet, and very importantly, teacher, physician, guardian of the laws and genealogies.

Interesting how the stories of David Samuel et al match these concepts! The character of Jesus also has many of these characteristics. Goliath, as a giant, is an obvious god.

There is even a link with Simon Magus - Magus was interchangeable with Druid in the medieval period in Ireland.

In the three centuries BCE significant numbers of celts moved into Asia Minor. They were in Galatia -

Quote:
"O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?...Now after ye have known God, or rather, are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Ye observe days, and months and times and years. (Gal 3 1, 4, 10 - 11).

There was not really a conflict between Pagans and Xians - the Druidic concept worship the gods is easily adapted to worship god. In any case xianity agreed with the Druids about three gods! Be manly, tell the truth did not change and became the basis of knighthood, chivalry and justice.

The Trinity is probably Celtic.

http://www.celtnet.org.uk/gods_l/lugus.html

It is strange the focus on a few texts without looking at what we do know about the development of religions, how ideas cross fertilise and change.

Quote:
The Celts were at the height of their powers the masters of Europe. Where there origins lie is still in question 'Was it in the West, in Ireland, or in Central Europe, in the Danube region?....If you could have taken an aeroplane in the Iron Age and flown from the Baltic to the Mediterranean, and from the Black sea to the West of Ireland, your whole journey would have been over Celtic occupied terrain."

Islam would also seem to have direct links with the worship of the moon.

We have recently commented on links between Buddism and Xianity. What about the influence of the Celts on Xianity? We do have several direct connections in the New Testament.

[wordy]

The story is a myth. Myths tries to make a point if I get it. Usually they are backward in time. One could try to read them as an interpretation that has moral implication for the believers. So the set up seems to be to give praise to Jesus as the King, it is a warning to those who like Herod cause they get told how unmoral he is cause he killed the 2000 innocent children. Keep to the right side cause we will gonna win the battle against the dark forces the text seems to say.

The function of three wise men in the myth to give credit from neigbouring countries that their wisest Magi knows about Jesus too and look up to him as promised in the old texts. It is all about bragging and hailing the true believers who don't question the myths and stay loyal cause great things are gonna come cause Jesus is the King. Spin doctors at work obviously. Don't take their myths literally for one second :)

[bajan]

[QUOTE=GakuseiDon;3855190]The star DIDN'T lead them to Jesus. They saw the star, which indicated to them that a King of the Jews was born. So they went to Jerusalem. The star didn't lead them at all, so it didn't matter whether it rose in the east or the west.

When you say Jerusalem you mean Bethlehem. The question is what/who lead them to Bethlehem?

The explanation of how a star that appeared in the East could lead the Wise Men (who came from the East) to Bethlehem was once given to me as a star that started in the East and then moved over to the West. If this is so then, if anything, it was a planet or comet but certainly not a star.

[Johnny Skeptic]

To fundamentalist Christians I ask "Was God involved in the entire affair, and if so, how?"

[Chili]

I look forward to reading comments from readers.

Te Journey of the Magi is made in response to an inward journey by the believer that takes him back to the state of mind he was at birth and there gives an account of himself so that the inner man can be reborn in him. This would be why the Magi came from the East and Joseph from the West to meet in the middle under Herod instead of Pilate who is not even aware of this journey to say that the "I" of believer is not part of the journey.

The net effect here is that the 'I' in popular "I surrender all" itself is also surrendered which makes the birth of Christ a non-rational event in the mind of the believer that is incipient by God instead of the believer (Jn.1:13).

In Catholicism the Journey of the Magi is made when the believer recognizes the white candle in the Advent Wreath to be his very own Baptism Candle and therein finds a glimmer of hope for better days to come.

The slaughter of the Innocent is a necessary condition to bring peace on earth in admiration of the newborn King. It just proves that Mary is queen.

[GakuseiDon]

The star DIDN'T lead them to Jesus. They saw the star, which indicated to them that a King of the Jews was born. So they went to Jerusalem. The star didn't lead them at all, so it didn't matter whether it rose in the east or the west.

When you say Jerusalem you mean Bethlehem.
No, I mean Jerusalem.

The question is what/who lead them to Bethlehem?
Herod lead them to Bethlehem.

The explanation of how a star that appeared in the East could lead the Wise Men (who came from the East) to Bethlehem was once given to me as a star that started in the East and then moved over to the West. If this is so then, if anything, it was a planet or comet but certainly not a star.
I don't think any of those could have stood over a certain spot.

[Chili]

[QUOTE=GakuseiDon;3855190]When you say Jerusalem you mean Bethlehem. The question is what/who lead them to Bethlehem?




Beth-le-hem means house of bread (or something like that) to say that Joseph was beyond theology or beyond surrender when Christ was born unto him. The "census" was "the account" or "the confession" which was non-rational because the stable was empty of reason (beyond theology) wherefore the shepherds were out on the night that Christ was born unto Joseph.

The journey to Bethlehem was a non-rational event and therefore an inward journey wherein Mary, who is the Woman that once was taken from Man, is in charge of the mind and hence the volition of the Joseph the upright Jew who in all sincerity wanted to know the meaning of life.

In Catholicism we have a mule and a donkey in the nativity to prove that Joseph was still beyond theology when the Magi arrived. The donkey and the mule represent the pacified Adam and Eve in the conscious mind wherefore Joseph was absent from the stable when the Magi looked in and saw only Mary and the child. IOW had Joseph been there they would not have entered and Easter would not have come without Epiphany.

[Chili]

To fundamentalist Christians I ask "Was God involved in the entire affair, and if so, how?"

Because the laws of nature took precedent over religion.

[douglas]

Magi??? Would the intended readers of Matthew have translated this word to mean the equivalent of Wise Men? The Wikipedia reference below leads me to believe that Magi was an actual tribe of people...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

[Roger Pearse]

The RAC?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[douglas]

Magi!

Members of Celtic priesthoods similar to (identical with?) that lot Caesar had problems with on the Isle of Mons?

Another cultural thread, a spice, a herb to put into this now very old marinade!

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=167032

(Forget the esus bit!)

Sorry, forget my previous question. I missed this post.

[John Kesler]

One interesting aspect of this story occurs in Matthew 2:19-22 (http://www.hope.edu/bandstra/BIBLE/MAT/MAT2.HTM):

19 When Herod died, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt and said, 20 "Get up, take the child and his mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who were seeking the child's life are dead." 21 Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother, and went to the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was ruling over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And after being warned in a dream, he went away to the district of Galilee.

Why would the "angel of the Lord" tell Joseph to move the family to the "land of Israel" when the angel knew, or should have known, that Archelaus (http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodians/herod_archelaus.htm) was ruling over Judea? Why not just tell Joseph to move to Galilee in the first place?

[Chili]

One interesting aspect of this story occurs in Matthew 2:19-22 (http://www.hope.edu/bandstra/BIBLE/MAT/MAT2.HTM):



Why would the "angel of the Lord" tell Joseph to move the family to the "land of Israel" when the angel knew, or should have known, that Archelaus (http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodians/herod_archelaus.htm) was ruling over Judea? Why not just tell Joseph to move to Galilee in the first place?

Because the angel of the Lord is the deceiver who wanted Joseph to take the short-cut to the promised land and not take the Galilee route where salvation is supposed to be worked out under Mary (sic), who does her work in good faith.

[bajan]

I don't think any of those could have stood over a certain spot.

So it wasn't a star; Matthew is in error.

[GakuseiDon]

So it wasn't a star; Matthew is in error.
Well, it was a "star", because that's what Matthew wrote. But I think the meaning was slightly broader than what we use today.

Still, it's an interesting question -- stars were the lights stuck in the firmament overhead (unless they fell as "falling stars"). Did people at that time think that stars were able to "stand over" a certain spot, to the extent that it is able to identify a single house? Does anyone know any non-Gospel examples of this?

[bajan]

I'm sorry GakuseiDon but I just don't buy it. Stars do not do this, never have done & never will do. If people thought they did 2000 years ago they were plain wrong. It is really not worth taking this detail too seriously for it is clearly in the realm of supernature.

If you want to believe that the visitation of the wise men gave some sort of credence to a royal birth I don't think it is necessary to argue that a star could have stood over a house long enough for these guys to get there.

[FEZZFACTOR]

After they had heard the king, they set went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was.
~ Matt.2:9

This "star" was not a supernova or a three planet conjuction--nay, both theories avoid the fact that supernovas and a conjuction of planets are terrible guide-stars. The three wise-men were no doubt Hebrews who chose not to return to their homeland after Cyrus allowed them to return to Judea. The star described in Scripture is moving and then stops over the place where Jesus was born. Such a star is an ancient description of what moderns call a UFO-sighting--but its not a material UFO, its the glory of God or a company of angels.

[bajan]

Well I must admit I hadn't thought of that one. But how about a firefly that got stuck on the chimney?

[LoungeHead]

Why did the wise men go to Herod? The star rose in the east, but they travelled west.
The star didn't lead them at all, so it didn't matter whether it rose in the east or the west.
Actually, the wise men came from the north (modern Turkey). And the star they followed was in fact a worm hole, which they travelled through from the 14th or 15th century. All depictions of the wise men I have seen, show them dressed in attire of late medieval Ottoman Turks? :confused:

[Chili]

Actually, the wise men came from the north (modern Turkey). And the star they followed was in fact a worm hole, which they travelled through from the 14th or 15th century. All depictions of the wise men I have seen, show them dressed in attire of late medieval Ottoman Turks? :confused:

As allegory the wise men came from East of Asshur where the Tigris "flows" into the Euphrates that itself does not wind or twist or flow anywhere but just is. Eu-phrates means bright-mind which is constant in the same way that "I AM" just is. The gift of wisdom is needed to illuminate I AM, or one is forced to accept that God needs a flashlight to enlighten believers and that is just opposite to what Epiphany represents in this story.

[John Kesler]

Did people at that time think that stars were able to "stand over" a certain spot, to the extent that it is able to identify a single house? Does anyone know any non-Gospel examples of this?

I don't know of this exact example, but cosmic phenomena were sometimes associated with important events. Consider this excerpt from Pliny the Elder (http://dlib.etc.ucla.edu:8080/projects/Forum/resources/primarysources/Pliny_HN_2.93-94), emphasis mine:

The only place in the whole world where a comet is the object of worship is a temple at Rome. His late Majesty Augustus had deemed this comet very propitious to himself; as it had appeared at the beginning of his rule, at some games which, not long after the decease of his father Caesar, as a member of the college founded by him he was celebrating in honour of Mother Venus. In fact he made public the joy that it gave him in these words: ' On the very days of my Games a comet was visible for seven days in the northern part of the sky. It was rising about an hour before sunset, and was a bright star, visible from all lands. The common people believed that this star signified the soul of Caesar received among the spirits of the immortal gods, and on this account the emblem of a star was added to the bust of Caesar that we shortly afterwards dedicated in the forum.' This was his public utterance, but privately he rejoiced because he interpreted the comet as having been born for his own sake and as containing his own birth within it; and, to confess the truth, it did have a health-giving influence over the world.

As many commentaries and study Bibles note, Matthew's source for the "wandering star" may be Numbers 24:17 (http://bible.cc/numbers/24-17.htm):

I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

The fact that the star guided the Magi recalls the "pillar of fire" and "pillar of cloud" that guided the Israelites.

[DrJim]

Led by a bottle, more like...:)

[Apikorus]

DrJim, would you care to weigh in on this thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=159132)? I recently discovered your 2005 JBL article on the subject. Please note the palaeography discussion at the current end of the thread. Cheers.

[LoungeHead]

As allegory the wise men came from East of Asshur where the Tigris "flows" into the Euphrates that itself does not wind or twist or flow anywhere but just is. Eu-phrates means bright-mind which is constant in the same way that "I AM" just is. The gift of wisdom is needed to illuminate I AM, or one is forced to accept that God needs a flashlight to enlighten believers and that is just opposite to what Epiphany represents in this story.
Nah, I don't buy it. Pictures on Christmas cards of medieval time-travelling Ottoman Turks is enough allegory for me.

[aa5874]

Well, it was a "star", because that's what Matthew wrote. But I think the meaning was slightly broader than what we use today.

Still, it's an interesting question -- stars were the lights stuck in the firmament overhead (unless they fell as "falling stars"). Did people at that time think that stars were able to "stand over" a certain spot, to the extent that it is able to identify a single house? Does anyone know any non-Gospel examples of this?

It is not possible for a star to 'stand' over a house, as described in the Bible. Because of the massive distance of stars, if a star appears to be over your house, it will also appear to be over every house for miles around.

[Clivedurdle]

What comets were around when? It might give a clue to when this story was written!

[Clivedurdle]

The closest perihelion passage to the time of Jesus are 11 BC and 66 AD. Neither event took place in Jesus' lifetime.

http://www.iki.rssi.ru/nineplanets/halley.html

Its return time also varies from 76 to 80 years.

Might these stories be post 146?

Rome's nine hundredth birthday in A.D. 147/148

http://www.roman-emperors.org/tonypis.htm

[bajan]

Yes - it could have been a comet but comets have a very variable 'lifetime' and since there is no known comet that could have appeared at the likely dates then it will remain just a theory.

Whatever the likely astronomical explanation I think it a bit far-fetched to imagine the phenomenon identified with one particular house. My bible says the "star" stopped over the place. I take this to mean the "star" was at the zenith, but any star at the zenith for one observer would also appear to be the zenith for anyone in Bethlehem and surrounding districts. It is simply impossible for the object to have been a star if it stopped over a house, and would not have identified the house anyway.

By the way, does the story imply that these guys travelled only by night ... for all that distance ... and with all that gold in their treasure chests?

[Clivedurdle]

141 Mar 20, The 6th recorded perihelion passage of Halley's Comet.

http://timelines.ws/01AD_299AD.HTML

[Clivedurdle]

Ptolemy

In the Syntaxis (or Almagest), Ptolemy (second century A.D.) synthesised mathematical astronomy into a coherent whole which rendered his predecessors obsolete and would dominate Western and Islamic thought until the sixteenth century. He also wrote works on astrology, geography, optics and music.

Nothing reliable is known of Claudius Ptolemy's life that cannot be deduced from his surviving works; only a few brief and unsupported biographical statements are made by much later sources. 'Claudius' suggests he held Roman citizenship, 'Ptolemy' that he was of Greek descent and lived in Egypt. The astronomical observations that he listed as having himself made cover the period 127-141 AD, from which it may be inferred that he was active in the first and into the second half of the second century AD, and all of those observations are listed as made in Alexandria, so it is likely that he lived in or near that city, still a great centre of learning at that time. In the Middle Ages, before the twelfth century, when his work was being discovered and studied in detail by Islamic scholars, little more than his name was remembered in the Latin West; as early as the Encyclopedia of Isidore of Seville (c.600 AD) he was confused with the dynasty of Ptolemies who had ruled Egypt after Alexander the Great, and from that sprang an iconographic tradition, lasting a thousand years, in which Ptolemy was regularly represented wearing a crown.

Wonder what his effect on the NT was!

http://www.hps.cam.ac.uk/starry/ptolemy.html

[seven8s]

Yes, well you know why God uses a flashlight don’t you? For the same reason Neanderthal man used a club…………

Must have been a real mean bottle………..made her sing that way………..

How’s that for wisdom? Rotflmao

[aa5874]

Whatever the likely astronomical explanation I think it a bit far-
By the way, does the story imply that these guys travelled only by night ... for all that distance ... and with all that gold in their treasure chests?

I don't think there is a likely astronomical explanation. Anyone involved in astronomy would not wander around in the night hoping that a 'star' would eventually stand over some place.

And in any event, the wise men worshipped the wrong baby, the baby never became King of the Jews, his last words were, according to Matthew, My God, my God , why hast thou forsaken me?

Wrong star, wrong baby.

[Chili]

Yes, well you know why God uses a flashlight don’t you? For the same reason Neanderthal man used a club…………

Must have been a real mean bottle………..made her sing that way………..

How’s that for wisdom? Rotflmao

I agree, flaslights and clubs make a good match and are a sure sign that the serpent did not yield its authority.

God is light and Lord God is life which itself is the continuity of light in the same way as beauty is the continuity of truth in the life of the living.

The ray of light that the Magi followed from East to West is what brought eternal life from Eden to Bethlehem for the beatification of the newborn child (we would called it the quality that is required for saint-hood with eternal life being the evidence of this condition). Needless to say is that the manger and the swaddling clotches are the right position to receive this bread of life with the ox and mule present only to keep the place warm so that resurrection can follow in time to come.