"Atheists go to hell"

[Cat59]

I don't know if I'm asking for advice or just having a rant.
Bit of background first. I'm a fairly recent atheist- I was previously a very devout Catholic and came to a sudden and dramatic change in my view of life about a year ago, much to the distress and annoyance of my family, especially my husband. I've fluctuated in my intense desire to regain my faith since, sometimes actively seeking ways to get it back, possibly because of the social and relationship consequences for me, but always coming up against the facts which led me to where I am now and reluctantly and at times emotionally accept atheism for me is here to stay.

My 14 year old son still goes to a Catholic school and still believes. He wrote a rather interesting essay recently about "his mother the atheist" for his RE (Religious education) class. He got an "A" but he won't let me see it.
Husband is extremely twitchy if I get into any sort of discussions about religion with son, although I have managed to talk fairly openly on a number of occasions about why I think and believe this way.

However, today, while on his way out with dad, he suddenly turns to me and informs me his RE teacher informed him yesterday that atheists go to hell, especially ones that have "turned their backs on God."
I started to try and respond but got "the look" from husband and anyway we were on our way out and already late.
He didn't seem too perturbed by the thought of his mother burning in eternal fire, so I wonder how much of it he actually believes.
Either that or our relationship is not as good as I thought it was!!

But I'm not sure whether to keep quiet or try and bring it up with him. I think we could have a very interesting conversation, but I know hubbie will not approve and in fact will be furious if I do. That would be straying over the tacit agreement that has "kept the peace" for the past few months. I think even if I don't, son will think it through and start asking some questions, if not of me, of his wonderful RE teacher.

Whatever I do, I just wanted to be able to rant a little, because I haven't got anyone I can ring up and yell out my annoyance at RE teacher. She's quite friendly with various members of husband's family and this comment, coming on top of the essay, has made me quite annoyed as obviously she's aware I now see myself as an atheist.

But any suggestions on how to respond to this, especially from people in similar "mixed" relationships trying to bring up kids would be very welcome.

[Scifinerdgrl]

That's the standard opinion of Christianity and their main ace-up-the-sleeve. Believe or burn forever!!!! Yet at the same time, faith is an unearned gift ("grace") so how could someone who doesn't have it be a sinner?

You could tell him that you're not going to Hell - you're going to Hades, because you don't believe in the Greek gods and there are more of them, so they outvote his god. :p

[Brian63]

Cat,

What is this pact you have with your husband? A bit of a no-fly-zone over the topic of religion? If your son can still go to Catholic school, then this pact is not fair to your side. It sounds like that needs to be re-worked.

At 14, he should start to be allowed to have more independent thoughts (especially about religion!) than a 4 year-old would be, for instance. It is definitely worth having a big discussion about religion with your whole family. Nobody should have to hide what they believe, or be afraid of expressing their honest views.

Brian

[Cat59]

Writing that out was quite helpful because when I read it back to myself, that's the first thought that I had, Brian. I guess some of it is simple cowardly behaviour on my part. I really had problems initially with husband and I just couldn't face another period of conflict. But if he's learning that sort of thing in school, I need to be able to at least put my side...
How to do it without stressing my marriage too much is the question.

[Brian63]

Be completely and totally honest about it with him. That will make it easiest and least stressful for you, and him, in the long run.

Brian

[Smullyan-esque]

Writing that out was quite helpful because when I read it back to myself, that's the first thought that I had, Brian. I guess some of it is simple cowardly behaviour on my part. I really had problems initially with husband and I just couldn't face another period of conflict. But if he's learning that sort of thing in school, I need to be able to at least put my side...
How to do it without stressing my marriage too much is the question.

I wish I had an easy answer for you. In an ideal world, everyone would be confortable with their own beliefs, and no one would be afraid to talk about them.

But your husband is not comfortable with the challenge to his beliefs that you represent. In a certain way, I can sort-of feel bad for him. He entered into the marriage with a clear idea of who it was he was marrying. And then, all of a sudden, you changed! That isn't fair to him, and he's probably upset about it. Maybe you should sit down alone with him some time and talk privately about that. Make sure that, early on in the conversation, you apologize to him, and let him know that you understand that he is probably feeling cheated.

BUT, that does not give him the right to be unfair to you in retaliation. Think of this analogy: I'm sure he entered into the marriage with the idea that there would be sex, at least once in a while! ;) But let's imagine that, instead of deconverting, instead you were in some sort of terrible accident (something just as beyond-your-control as your deconversion). Because of your injuries, you couldn't have sex any more. :eek: Would that make it ok for him to start sleeping around and acting snarky towards you? NO!

You cannot change the truth that you see. If you can tell that your previous beliefs were incorrect, you can't just lie to yourself and ignore that!

Here's the hard part: If you stand up for what is right, and try to be sure your son isn't brainwashed, your marriage might not survive.

Part of your deconversion is learning to face difficult facts. You need to have your eyes open, here. I do NOT suggest that you just surrender to your husband. On the other hand, I do NOT suggest that you pester the poor guy and act like HE is a lunatic. But, you really should stand strong for what you see is the truth. Do not let your son be poisoned against you. Do not let your family ignore your change in belief.

After you have the talk with your husband, you need to set up a regular discussion time with your whole family. Something like: Every Monday evening, after dinner, everyone brings up topics that they want to talk about. It needs to be a regular thing, so that people can take small steps, rather than forcing everyone to jump in all at once.

That's the best advice I can give you, and I can't promise that things will work out. The ball is really in your husband's court right now. If he decides to be fair and tolerant, then things should be ok. If he decides that this is too much for him to handle, then the marriage might break up!

[suttsteve]

He's your son, too. By "protecting" him, your husband is only letting him hear the religious side of things, which does a disservice to your entire family. As a parent, it's your responsibility and duty to have these discussions with your son. It might displease your husband, but being parents is an equal partnership and you have as much right to discuss things with your son as he does, no matter how controversial they are.

[Dick Springer]

He's your son, too. By "protecting" him, your husband is only letting him hear the religious side of things, which does a disservice to your entire family. As a parent, it's your responsibility and duty to have these discussions with your son. It might displease your husband, but being parents is an equal partnership and you have as much right to discuss things with your son as he does, no matter how controversial they are.

Not knowing your husband, I don't know what the consequences of your asserting yourself would be, but you should remember that your actions are much more instructive than your words. If you submit to an unequal partnership you are teaching your son that gender inequality is OK, as well as depriving him of exposure to your thoughts, which seem much superior to those of your husband.

[Danhalen]

I never thought about how much easier it is for both my wife and I to be atheists. When I run into people who vehemently disagree with me, I don't have to care because I don't have to live with them. This is quite a pickle Cat.

I suppose I would first take your husband to the side and tell him you need to stop ignoring the elephant in the room. Just lay it all out for him. Let him know exactly how you feel, and why you feel that way. He needs to understand it is not ok for him to raise the children as more his than yours. No matter how strongly he feels you may actually go to hell for apostacy, he needs to allow you to tell your children you have no fear of a place you don not believe exists. You should be allowed to explain to your children why you believe heaven and hell are fictitious places. Perhaps you can explain to your husband that your children will, eventually, meet heathens like us in the real world, and that it would be best for them to know you as a heathen before someone else puts a warped view in your children's heads (like the RE teacher). He needs to understand why it is so hurtful for a person outside of your marriage to speak poorly of his wife, and have him defend the man for doing so. Your husband needs to reconcile his beliefs with his marriage to you. He needs to state to all concerned what is more important to him. He needs to understand you have been by his side when he needed it most, while Jesus hangs in glib delight upon his cross in a sanctuary.

I'm sorry to say so but, your husband needs to grow up and act like a grown man, and defend his wife's honor.

[Cat59]

Thanks. That's given me a lot to think about and process. At the begining, I had to do a lot of negotiating just to talk about my deconversion with anyone, let alone my son and we worked through that, albeit somewhat painfully at the time. Now I think things have moved on to another stage and I have to face up to the "elephant in the room" myself, as I'm am probably just as much, if not more to blame, than him, as I've just let things go and not attempted to challenge anything. But neither of us can afford-nor want- the marriage to break up. We've been through far worse real life issues, I'm reasonably sure we can get through this. It just might be a little rocky.
So thanks again. I guess I knew what the answers would be but needed to see them to push myself on.

[garrisonjj]

Who needs to wear their atheism on their sleeve? I've been a devout catholic for over 40 years and have been a born again atheist for about a year now.
Both my young children are in catholic school and will receive the sacraments.
While never discussing it, my wife stopped going to church for a year now also. I Believe we both think religion is bullshit. Yet, we both feel the kids should be exposed and someday make up their own minds.
When we have to attend church,we do,receive communion without confession and I personally walk out of church and say fuck it all to myself.There is no visible god and he never responded to my prayers anyway. Fuck hell also,if that is what a loving father does to his creation then so be it.
I'm sorry to be so blunt,but thats my attitude. Be well!

[RAFH]

I would suggest you rethink the notion you are "more to blame". If there is blame in this situation, its certainly not yours more than anyone elses. Are you being intolerant? Are you undermining your husband's authority with your son? Are you siding with persons outside your family against him? Are you an outsider intruding into a family, possibly destroying it.

I hope it all works out for you. Well, it will work out, I just hope what results isn't too painful for any- and/or every-one involved. Especially I hope you will be able to maintain your relationship with your son.

I can't even imagine being married to someone who had such an entirely different life view.

[Jaecp]

Your not "more to blame." What you have discovered is a real and true view of life. How many people would be religious if they had ample information like the most light reader here has had?

garrisonjj. born again atheist? You believe something without discussing it, and you want your kids to make a choice without any help from you? I figure there is a more common(not neccesarily stronger, but more common) drive in apostates than those who were raised free, still, I feel as though I wasted a good deal of my life that is no rendered solely to mentally fucking with people still in that life. Oh, that I could have had 15 years with much more fun on sunday.

[cgordon]

"HOney, I know your church believes I'm going to Hell, but you need to understand that I don't believe in your church or it's hell. Why would a loving God subject his children to eternal bliss, whilst all the while knowing that their atheist moms - or brothers or fathers or friends - are burning in Hell forever? Does that makes sense?"

[BbeltAtheist]

Your son is led to believe that his mother is going to hell and your husband does not want you to say anything to him about that? :o

[The Other Michael]

Both my young children are in catholic school and will receive the sacraments. . . . Yet, we both feel the kids should be exposed and someday make up their own minds.

That seems like a wee bit more than just "exposure". I bet that if asked your children would probably say "of course I'm a Catholic" as they are fully immersed in the whole schtick.

cheers,
Michael

[xxx]

Hold your ground but do not push. Everyone has a right to their own opinions. As for your children, teach them both points of view from an objective standpoint and allow them to make their own choice.

[benjdm]

Does your husband think you are going to burn in hell ?

[Cat59]

He holds a position that I'm going to return to the faith come what may. He just knows it. Hence he can side step that issue.

[benjdm]

So, in other words, he thinks you are going to burn in hell and still worships the deity who is going to send you to hell. The way he resolves this is by believing you're destined to reconvert; therefore God can still be worthy of worship and unbelievers still deserve eternal torture.

Obviously I'm speculating quite a bit here. But, if I'm right, what a messed up spot to be placed in by hell doctrine.

I dunno what to say. Perhaps some ideas will come to me later.

[The Reformer]

Cat, isn't there anyone - who knows both your husband and yourself - who could help you? Perhaps consider talking to such a person as the people on here, myself included, can merely speculate.


Good luck.

[I. C. Unicorns]

Are you going to drop atheism and go running back into the arms of God? I have an inkling that your husband hopes you will do this soon.

[Cat59]

It's what he hopes yes, and to be honest, it was my hope too because this is so complicated and stressful. I have enough difficulties in my life without having a major switch in life views at 47.
However, I cannot believe that which I know to be false, so much as I would like to go running back into the arms of God or wait earnestly for santa to come down the chimney, it isn't going to happen.
The idea about talking to a friend is a good one, I'm actually going away with my one non religious friend next weekend for a few days. She knows us both and may have an outsiders perspective on it all...

[Kassiana]

Oh dear. Is there any chance of getting some form of therapy, either individually for you or marriage counseling for both of you? It's helped me when I had problems in my marriage.

In any case, I hope you end up making the right decision for you.

[benjdm]

I don't see how a marriage can be sustained when Mr. Cat believes Cat59 is going to burn in hell and considers the God is who going to send her there to be good. While it is stressful for you, Cat, this has to be incredibly stressful for Mr. Cat. He is going to have to modify his beliefs; possibly universalism or more of a works based judgement. If not, and he continues to believe unbelievers go to hell....it doesn't look good.

Jeez, hell is an evil concept. The unintended consequences would make it a horrible proposition even if it did a good job of motivating good behavior.

My $0.02.

[SweetReason]

How about, "Son, you've just bought up a VERY BIG issue while you're on your way out the door, I'd like to hear what YOU think about that when there's more time to talk"?

Be the person in his life who wants to hear what he has to say, even if you don't agree with it. Give that gift of love & respect, & he may be able to return it... or be freed by it



I don't know if I'm asking for advice or just having a rant.
Bit of background first. I'm a fairly recent atheist- I was previously a very devout Catholic and came to a sudden and dramatic change in my view of life about a year ago, much to the distress and annoyance of my family, especially my husband. I've fluctuated in my intense desire to regain my faith since, sometimes actively seeking ways to get it back, possibly because of the social and relationship consequences for me, but always coming up against the facts which led me to where I am now and reluctantly and at times emotionally accept atheism for me is here to stay.

My 14 year old son still goes to a Catholic school and still believes. He wrote a rather interesting essay recently about "his mother the atheist" for his RE (Religious education) class. He got an "A" but he won't let me see it.
Husband is extremely twitchy if I get into any sort of discussions about religion with son, although I have managed to talk fairly openly on a number of occasions about why I think and believe this way.

However, today, while on his way out with dad, he suddenly turns to me and informs me his RE teacher informed him yesterday that atheists go to hell, especially ones that have "turned their backs on God."
I started to try and respond but got "the look" from husband and anyway we were on our way out and already late.
He didn't seem too perturbed by the thought of his mother burning in eternal fire, so I wonder how much of it he actually believes.
Either that or our relationship is not as good as I thought it was!!

But I'm not sure whether to keep quiet or try and bring it up with him. I think we could have a very interesting conversation, but I know hubbie will not approve and in fact will be furious if I do. That would be straying over the tacit agreement that has "kept the peace" for the past few months. I think even if I don't, son will think it through and start asking some questions, if not of me, of his wonderful RE teacher.

Whatever I do, I just wanted to be able to rant a little, because I haven't got anyone I can ring up and yell out my annoyance at RE teacher. She's quite friendly with various members of husband's family and this comment, coming on top of the essay, has made me quite annoyed as obviously she's aware I now see myself as an atheist.

But any suggestions on how to respond to this, especially from people in similar "mixed" relationships trying to bring up kids would be very welcome.

[Danhalen]

Cat, I know I came across pretty strong in my initial reply, and I do really feel as strongly as that, but I do hope you can approach these issues in a peaceable manner. I know we don't really know each other, but I do feel like I've come to know you alot while here or at CF. I care deeply about you and your family. I think you are a great person who deserves more than she receives. I want only the best outcome for you and your family. I guess I responded as angrily as I did because I do consider you a friend. Be well Cat.

[Rosa Mystica]

How incredibly hypocritical on the teacher's part. Especially when her faith teaches that "Only God can judge" and "No one knows where anyone is going" and that sort of thing. When I was a Catholic, "Judge not" was pounded into me alongside hellbelief. By making statements like this, she is not acting in accordance with her faith, b/c she is "making presumptions" and what not. Perhaps she needs to have *that* pointed out to her.

As for your son, I would advise being honest with him. Perhaps your husband's fears might be assauaged slightly if you suggest to him that sharing your honest opinion with your boy is *not* the same as trying to take his faith from him. He is going to be exposed to other viewpoints in time, anyway- it's just the reality of life today. And not everyone who investigates other systems of belief is bound to lose their faith.

*Hugs*, sweetie. I'll be thinking of you.

Rosa
I don't know if I'm asking for advice or just having a rant.
Bit of background first. I'm a fairly recent atheist- I was previously a very devout Catholic and came to a sudden and dramatic change in my view of life about a year ago, much to the distress and annoyance of my family, especially my husband. I've fluctuated in my intense desire to regain my faith since, sometimes actively seeking ways to get it back, possibly because of the social and relationship consequences for me, but always coming up against the facts which led me to where I am now and reluctantly and at times emotionally accept atheism for me is here to stay.

My 14 year old son still goes to a Catholic school and still believes. He wrote a rather interesting essay recently about "his mother the atheist" for his RE (Religious education) class. He got an "A" but he won't let me see it.
Husband is extremely twitchy if I get into any sort of discussions about religion with son, although I have managed to talk fairly openly on a number of occasions about why I think and believe this way.

However, today, while on his way out with dad, he suddenly turns to me and informs me his RE teacher informed him yesterday that atheists go to hell, especially ones that have "turned their backs on God."
I started to try and respond but got "the look" from husband and anyway we were on our way out and already late.
He didn't seem too perturbed by the thought of his mother burning in eternal fire, so I wonder how much of it he actually believes.
Either that or our relationship is not as good as I thought it was!!

But I'm not sure whether to keep quiet or try and bring it up with him. I think we could have a very interesting conversation, but I know hubbie will not approve and in fact will be furious if I do. That would be straying over the tacit agreement that has "kept the peace" for the past few months. I think even if I don't, son will think it through and start asking some questions, if not of me, of his wonderful RE teacher.

Whatever I do, I just wanted to be able to rant a little, because I haven't got anyone I can ring up and yell out my annoyance at RE teacher. She's quite friendly with various members of husband's family and this comment, coming on top of the essay, has made me quite annoyed as obviously she's aware I now see myself as an atheist.

But any suggestions on how to respond to this, especially from people in similar "mixed" relationships trying to bring up kids would be very welcome.

[Donkeykong]

If I was cat I would look for a new hubby!

[Godless Raven]

I would buy those red eyed contact lenses and take a removable red marker and right "666" on my head. Then I'd show them the "signs" and ask them if they could get a priest to perform and exorcism. Then, after they began panicking, I would wipe off the marker and remove the contacts and laugh maniaclly.

But then again...I'm an atheist that's "going to burn in hell" so...you might be best to skip my advice. :devil2:

[Cat59]

Knowing my style, I'd probably buy a perm marker by mistake...
I don't actually want to get a new Mr Cat, I'm happy with the one I've got. It took 20 years to train him in my likes and dislikes and I don't think anyone else would put up with my eccenticities...

But thanks for the thoughts. I think trying to challenge him on his beliefs is something I haven't done, for the sake of peace in the house, but I may have to gradually- and slowly- start doing that. As for son2, he's been to busy doing homework, speaking to his girlfriend on the phone and playing Guild Wars to even contemplate communicating with me this weekend, but I'll have a chat with him and listen (which is what I usually do) and let him know my views next time I'm being Mum's taxi service.
Thanks all...

[EarlOfLade]

Your son is led to believe that his mother is going to hell and your husband does not want you to say anything to him about that? :o
Exactly!

They have no problems with a cruel and barbaric god, but an atheist....

[post tenebras lux]

Hi Cat, and I hope it all works out eventually.

Can I first say that it seems to me that your husband is not all that secure in his faith. But I don't want to be an armchair speculator when I don't know the guy, so I shouldn't continue along those lines.

Perhaps, if and when you and your husband do agree to talk to you son about this, you can suggest that you swap explainations: that you explain to your son why certain people - such as his father - believe that there is a god/are gods and your husband can explain why certain people - like you - don't believe. If he's not prepared to try to do that then I doubt that he's prepared to be fair to you - and your lack of beliefs - with your son.

As for your son's RE teacher: request the right not to be gossipped about behind your back, that if they do wish to talk about you then either you should be involved or you gain the right to talk about the RE teacher's beliefs.

And as for that casual comment your son made as he walked out the door: at his age he is easily old enough to be told that it's neither big nor clever to glibbly mention such serious topics (as you spending enternity roasting at Gas Mark 4) when he knew damn well there was no possibility to discuss them.

Take care
Luxie

[Scifinerdgrl]

Knowing my style, I'd probably buy a perm marker by mistake...
I don't actually want to get a new Mr Cat, I'm happy with the one I've got. It took 20 years to train him in my likes and dislikes and I don't think anyone else would put up with my eccenticities...

But thanks for the thoughts. I think trying to challenge him on his beliefs is something I haven't done, for the sake of peace in the house, but I may have to gradually- and slowly- start doing that.

If you do that you open yourself up to fundytalk & attempts at reconversion. Merely being an example of a person who can be a nonbeliever and yet be moral, happy, and a credit to the human race will be enough of a convincer over time.

As for son2, he's been to busy doing homework, speaking to his girlfriend on the phone and playing Guild Wars to even contemplate communicating with me this weekend, but I'll have a chat with him and listen (which is what I usually do) and let him know my views next time I'm being Mum's taxi service.
Thanks all...

What about "I'm not worried about Hell because I don't believe in an afterlife of any kind," and leaving it at that. Catholics should be concerned about their own eternal damnation anyway -- if they die before doing confession & penance for their latest sins they burn!

[Dawn]

Cat,

I just want to say that I am following your struggle and am in a similar place. I do not have any children, but have an ultra conservative husband who believes the word godless is the worst insult ever. His parents are extremely pushy evangelical baptists. Everyone thinks I am going to hell too and I have not used the term atheist to describe myself. I keep thinking I need to "come out" officially, but then I figure I have been honest about being non religious and against going to church for all the many years of my marriage and have expressed my belief that religion can be abusive and dangerous. My dh never asks me about my beliefs and if I start to get close to discussing them he avoids the discussion. No one really wants to hear it. I think if I started saying I am an atheist fingers would go in his ears and he would say lalalalala I can't hear you. Anyway, I have noticed how your dh has come around a little from his initial horror and am hoping that he will settle down and respect you more. It sounds like his fear keeps him from seeing how unfair it is to control your interaction with your son. I like your plan to discuss things with your son in a less tense moment in a way he can take your views in without lots of drama. Despite my husband's views, he does not attend church since I won't go so it isn't a subject that has to be addresssed the way it is in your home with your son and husband going. I just get the prosletyzing from the in laws.

I will be hoping to learn from your experiences and I am hoping your husband wakes up and sees the damage religion is doing to you and your family.

All the best

[Godless Dave]

I'm sorry to say so but, your husband needs to grow up and act like a grown man, and defend his wife's honor.

Indeed. And in light of what Rosa said,

How incredibly hypocritical on the teacher's part. Especially when her faith teaches that "Only God can judge" and "No one knows where anyone is going" and that sort of thing. ... By making statements like this, she is not acting in accordance with her faith, b/c she is "making presumptions" and what not. Perhaps she needs to have *that* pointed out to her.


... I would hope Mr. Cat would be the one having that discussion with the teacher.

As for your son, it sounds like he's old enough to receive this album as a gift:

http://www.a-cd.de/images/articles/2005-03-15_204644_ac_dc_highway_to_hell.jpg

[tapley54]

No kids here, but I do have a Xtian wife that thinks I'm gonna burn in Hell, but she holds out hope that I'll reconvert. Until then, I'm challenging her ideas, and I think she is realizing the logic to my way of thinking.

The agreement thing you mentioned bothers me. It also sounds to me like your husband treats you like one of the kids (I used to treat my wife like a child, because that's what God told me I was supposed to do).

You are entitled to be open and honest with your child. Your husband could then explain what he thinks is true (that the devil is making you say horrible things), and in the end your son will decide what to believe. If your son is not exposed to the truth, then he has less choice of what to believe.

In the end, if you don't try to free his mind, he may resent you for letting him be brainwashed for so long; for not standing up for him when he needed you.

[Pastor's Nightmare]

Here's my two cents worth. Just fake regaining your faith. Go along with the church and religion thing and just fake it. They're predisposed to believe you've regained your faith because this is what they want to believe. This will also make them more willing to trust and believe what you have to say. On a few rare occasions, you can bring up religious issues in a subtle way.

You can also get a subscription to The New York Times. Just reading the NY Times with its style of analysis, even on non-religious topics, has a deconverting effect. It will slowly start introducing modes of analysis, which will be useful for deconverting someone. You can also rent videos that have a similar effect. Stand-up comedy is usually good. Stand-up usually has a good deal of keen insights. This develops a person's observational capacities, which is useful in the deconversion process. The NY Times also hones a person's observational and logical capacities in the psychological and social spheres, which is instrumental in deconversion. I'm sure other at the IIDB can suggest movies, which have a similar effect. I'd stay away from movies, which are overtly anti-religious. Literature, psychology, and sociology books are also extremely effective in deconverting people. Just understanding human nature better challenges the notion of good and evil, which is a requisite foundation on which Christianity rests.

[Pastor's Nightmare]

No kids here, but I do have a Xtian wife that thinks I'm gonna burn in Hell, but she holds out hope that I'll reconvert. Until then, I'm challenging her ideas, and I think she is realizing the logic to my way of thinking.

The agreement thing you mentioned bothers me. It also sounds to me like your husband treats you like one of the kids (I used to treat my wife like a child, because that's what God told me I was supposed to do).

You are entitled to be open and honest with your child. Your husband could then explain what he thinks is true (that the devil is making you say horrible things), and in the end your son will decide what to believe. If your son is not exposed to the truth, then he has less choice of what to believe.

In the end, if you don't try to free his mind, he may resent you for letting him be brainwashed for so long; for not standing up for him when he needed you.

Inform your Xtian wife about the following quote in the Bible.

"And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy."-I Corinthians 7:12-14

[Pastor's Nightmare]

It's a good idea to keep in mind that 14 year olds can't keep their mouths shut. Perhaps your son is different, but I imagine your husband would find out fairly quickly if you had such a discussion. Any deconversion will be riddled with doubt, which means a desire to discuss that doubt, which means your husband would find out. I'd advise against it. The goal is to deconvert both of them with as little damage to your family as possible. If it takes three years as opposed to two years, who cares? Its not worth risking a divorce and failing at deconversion.

[Pastor's Nightmare]

Cat,

I just want to say that I am following your struggle and am in a similar place. I do not have any children, but have an ultra conservative husband who believes the word godless is the worst insult ever. His parents are extremely pushy evangelical baptists. Everyone thinks I am going to hell too and I have not used the term atheist to describe myself. I keep thinking I need to "come out" officially, but then I figure I have been honest about being non religious and against going to church for all the many years of my marriage and have expressed my belief that religion can be abusive and dangerous. My dh never asks me about my beliefs and if I start to get close to discussing them he avoids the discussion. No one really wants to hear it. I think if I started saying I am an atheist fingers would go in his ears and he would say lalalalala I can't hear you. Anyway, I have noticed how your dh has come around a little from his initial horror and am hoping that he will settle down and respect you more. It sounds like his fear keeps him from seeing how unfair it is to control your interaction with your son. I like your plan to discuss things with your son in a less tense moment in a way he can take your views in without lots of drama. Despite my husband's views, he does not attend church since I won't go so it isn't a subject that has to be addresssed the way it is in your home with your son and husband going. I just get the prosletyzing from the in laws.

I will be hoping to learn from your experiences and I am hoping your husband wakes up and sees the damage religion is doing to you and your family.

All the best

Have you thought about going along to church and faking faith? This is extremely effective. Once you're on the inside, they'll feel so, so, so free to express their doubts. And, the doubts will come in torrents. You can also ask really innocent questions, which will create more cognitive dissonance. Unlike Catholics, Baptists believe in the absolute inerrancy of the Bible. This position is beyond ridiculous. Lists like the following usually fill the average Baptists mind with ridiculous amounts of doubt.



1.Two different accounts are given of Judas's death in The Book of Matthew and The Book of Acts.
a.So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. (Matthew 27:5)
b.With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. (Acts 1:18)

2.In The Book of Matthew, it is stated that Joseph's father is Jacob while The Book of Luke states that Joseph's father is Heli.
a.
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. (Matthew 1:16)
b.Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat,... (Luke 3:23)

3.The authors of The Book of Luke and The Book of John give different accounts of Jesus's last words.
a.Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he said this, he breathed his last. (Luke 23:46)
b.When he received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:30)

4.It is claimed in Acts that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead, but it is also stated that Jesus before his crucifixion raised Lazarus from the dead.
a.that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles. (Acts 26:23)
b.When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go." (John 11:43-44)

5.Jesus is said to baptize and also not to baptize in The Book of John.
a.After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. (John 3:22)
b.The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. (John 4:2)

6.It is claimed in John that no one has seen God, but Stephen claims to see heaven open and to see Jesus next to God.
a.No one has ever seen God. (John 1:18)
b.But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look", he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." (Acts 7:55-56)

7.Matthew states that one angel appears before Mary while John states that two angels appear before Mary. Furthermore, they give different accounts of the conversation, which occurred.
a.There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
The angel said to the women, "Do no be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified." (Matthew 28:2-5)
b.but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
They asked her, "Women, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." (John 20:11-13)

You can just say that as you were reading the Bible, you noticed some of the things above. Then, you can ask how you should make sense of these things. If you go to Bible study, you can ask them to spend a little bit of time asking and answering questions. Usually such question and answer sessions are not a part of Bible study. After going for three-four weeks, you can suggest this. Then, on week six or seven, you can bring up some of the things above. This will cast doubts in the minds of many people in the Bible study.

However, deconversion is extremely slow. With very mild, active persistent effort it takes two-three years. The effort has to be very mild and persistent. Too strong and you'll hit a brick wall.

[SweetReason]

Cat , I wonder if it would be useful to think about what's going on in your family as not being "about religion" -- or at least not only about religion.

Any big change in one spouse can be a challenge for the other. I doubt your husband husband would be any happier if you decided to go to a seminary and get a divinity degree. Have the changes that led to your atheism changed you, or the way you treat your husband, in other ways? Should you it he be talking about that?

As for your son, he is at an age when kids are embarrassed about their parents for all kinds of reasons; basically, they're getting more worldly and starting to make comparisons, as well as worrying about what their friends think. For a kid in a Catholic school, maybe having an atheist mom is just a social embarrassment. And, as he's growing into manhood, he may feel like he has to act more like his dad.

It's good to hear you have a friend you can talk to. Good luck!

[Cynic of Mammon]

They have a name for the situation whereby one's views are not acceptable topics for discussion: repression. Yes it's hard to be the only atheist among a family of theists (especially Catholics), but holding back your important beliefs from your son will damage you psychologically. Don't become an outsider in your own family: no one has the right to make you feel this way

[Proxima Centauri]

How incredibly hypocritical on the teacher's part. Especially when her faith teaches that "Only God can judge" and "No one knows where anyone is going" and that sort of thing. When I was a Catholic, "Judge not" was pounded into me alongside hellbelief. By making statements like this, she is not acting in accordance with her faith, b/c she is "making presumptions" and what not. Perhaps she needs to have *that* pointed out to her.

As for your son, I would advise being honest with him. Perhaps your husband's fears might be assauaged slightly if you suggest to him that sharing your honest opinion with your boy is *not* the same as trying to take his faith from him. He is going to be exposed to other viewpoints in time, anyway- it's just the reality of life today. And not everyone who investigates other systems of belief is bound to lose their faith.

*Hugs*, sweetie. I'll be thinking of you.

Rosa

I spent a year at a Roman Catholic school.:eek: I also had Roman Catholic relatives and an aunt taught me a great deal. I agree that RE teacher is contradicting other Roman Catholic doctrines. You could point that out to your son. If your husband doesn’t like what you say that could help him see that the church is contradictory or at least that he shouldn’t be “judgmental” and assume that anyone is going to hell.

[Proxima Centauri]

It's what he hopes yes, and to be honest, it was my hope too because this is so complicated and stressful. I have enough difficulties in my life without having a major switch in life views at 47.
However, I cannot believe that which I know to be false, so much as I would like to go running back into the arms of God or wait earnestly for santa to come down the chimney, it isn't going to happen.
The idea about talking to a friend is a good one, I'm actually going away with my one non religious friend next weekend for a few days. She knows us both and may have an outsiders perspective on it all...

I'm sorry you are still having trouble adjusting to atheism. Most of us value the freedom we have without irrational religious restrictions. :cool:
Once in the, “Deconversion isn’t fun” ( http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=146165) thread you wrote. “I know I am my own worst enemy. Part of your problem is that so many of your friends are Christians and the Christians reinforce your own dissatisfaction with atheism.
Please work at being a good friend to yourself. Please work at finding other friends who do not judge you for leaving Christianity.
That RE teacher probably wants to cause your son distress by making him believe that his own mother is in danger of hell. It’s not necessarily sadism. That teacher is prepared to cause extreme distress in this world in order to save your son’s imaginary soul in the next.
To help your son you should counteract that influence.
Your friends are also willing to cause you distress.:worried:

[Proxima Centauri]

Here's my two cents worth. Just fake regaining your faith. Go along with the church and religion thing and just fake it. They're predisposed to believe you've regained your faith because this is what they want to believe. This will also make them more willing to trust and believe what you have to say. On a few rare occasions, you can bring up religious issues in a subtle way.

You can also get a subscription to The New York Times. Just reading the NY Times with its style of analysis, even on non-religious topics, has a deconverting effect. It will slowly start introducing modes of analysis, which will be useful for deconverting someone. You can also rent videos that have a similar effect. Stand-up comedy is usually good. Stand-up usually has a good deal of keen insights. This develops a person's observational capacities, which is useful in the deconversion process. The NY Times also hones a person's observational and logical capacities in the psychological and social spheres, which is instrumental in deconversion. I'm sure other at the IIDB can suggest movies, which have a similar effect. I'd stay away from movies, which are overtly anti-religious. Literature, psychology, and sociology books are also extremely effective in deconverting people. Just understanding human nature better challenges the notion of good and evil, which is a requisite foundation on which Christianity rests.

I wouldn't suggest pretending to reconvert. The Guardian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian) also encourages critical thinking and is a British Newspaper.

[Penumbrae]

Of course, the other side of this is that if Cat's husband and kid both believe that she's going to burn in hell that gives them even more motivation to help her stay alive longer so that she can make her reconversion. It also gives her many more venues of getting them to do things out of guilt, especially the endless laundry-list of guilt-inducing topics to which Catholics subject themselves. If they're going to persist in their delusional beliefs, she may as well get as much benefit out of them as possible; if they are in some way disadvantaged by their own beliefs, then they really have nobody but themselves to blame.

Here's a conundrum: if heaven is devoid of suffering, does that mean that those who are heaven-bound with loved ones in hell don't suffer from that knowledge? What, they just forget that their mother/brother/aunt/dad are writhing in eternal torment? Or do they become utter sadists and enjoy the thought while strumming their harps? Does that sound like heaven to you?

[6for2]

My wife and in-laws have always considered me to be a kind of lesser person because of my atheism. That kind of situation can be stressful. As my kids have gotten older, I have tried to introduce them to the concept of critical thinking, without making a big deal of it. Best of luck in your situation, Cat.

[FatherMithras]

I think it's very unfortunate cat, that you seem to think you should obey your husband and that he's in charge of your life. You seem to be giving into blind obedience out of some kind of fear in him. It doesn't seem like as healthy a relationship as you claim, if he won't ALLOW you to say that you won't be burning in hell forever to your own son. If I found myself in that position with my wife, I'd probably belt her one.

[spamandham]

But any suggestions on how to respond to this, especially from people in similar "mixed" relationships trying to bring up kids would be very welcome.

I'm in a very similar situation. I used to be Catholic, then agnostic, then Catholic, then Baptist, then Young Earth Creationist dumbass, and finally allowed myself to face reality and realized I was an atheist about 5 years ago.

My wife is still Christian (half Catholic/ half Baptist - a wierd combination, but it works for her). I have a 14 year old son, plus a couple of younger kids.

For the moment, this works for me. I don't discuss religion with the family, period. But neither do I fake it. She goes to church and drags my oldest kicking and screaming with her. They both know I'm an atheist, and it doesn't seem to bother them to think I'm going to hell, which to me means they don't really believe that crap, but simply spread the party line because it scares them not to.

The mere knowledge that you are an atheist is going to change the perspective of your kids even if you never have a single religious discussion with them.

My advice is not to discuss it with them if it creates tension to do so. Are you willing to lose your family over this? That could happen if you push it. Courts have been known to favor a religious parent in child custody disputes.

[FatherMithras]

My advice is not to discuss it with them if it creates tension to do so. Are you willing to lose your family over this? That could happen if you push it. Courts have been known to favor a religious parent in child custody disputes.
I don't know about this approach personally. It's the equivalent of letting your significant other badmouth you to the children and simply allowing it. It's also a pretty serious violation of individual rights to just sit down and shut up and not be allowed to speak to your own children freely. but I suppose if you don't mind being another person's property it'd work.

[spamandham]

I don't know about this approach personally. It's the equivalent of letting your significant other badmouth you to the children and simply allowing it. It's also a pretty serious violation of individual rights to just sit down and shut up and not be allowed to speak to your own children freely. but I suppose if you don't mind being another person's property it'd work.

Why knock what works? But if that makes me her property in your mind, I'm ok with that. I'm not particularly concerned with appeasing your sense of consistency.

[Cat59]

I think it's very unfortunate cat, that you seem to think you should obey your husband and that he's in charge of your life. You seem to be giving into blind obedience out of some kind of fear in him. It doesn't seem like as healthy a relationship as you claim, if he won't ALLOW you to say that you won't be burning in hell forever to your own son. If I found myself in that position with my wife, I'd probably belt her one.

And I think you are right, it isn't a healthy relationship at the moment. It very much revolved around the faith we shared before and though we were never conventional in that I worked and I was the bread winner and he stayed at home, where things came down to the crunch, I would gave way to him "as in the Lord." So there is far more going on here than just me changing, the whole nature of our relationship has changed. And not just in our roles, also in what we did together, talked about together, the things we had in common, goals we had, goals for our kids, the list is endless.
At the moment, being despondent about the whole thing, I don't know, other than the kids, what there is left that we share and there seems to be so much that is important that is in conflict.
Anyway, I've started to tentatively talk about this with him and I have no idea where it'll all go. I'll keep counselling in mind but I have a sinking feeling that we're on a road to nowhere.
Thanks for the advice anyway people, it's been helpful.

[beorne]

I don't know if I'm asking for advice or just having a rant.
....
My 14 year old son still goes to a Catholic school and still believes. He wrote a rather interesting essay recently about "his mother the atheist" for his RE (Religious education) class. He got an "A" but he won't let me see it.
Husband is extremely twitchy if I get into any sort of discussions about religion with son, although I have managed to talk fairly openly on a number of occasions about why I think and believe this way.

However, today, while on his way out with dad, he suddenly turns to me and informs me his RE teacher informed him yesterday that atheists go to hell, especially ones that have "turned their backs on God."
I started to try and respond but got "the look" from husband and anyway we were on our way out and already late.
He didn't seem too perturbed by the thought of his mother burning in eternal fire, so I wonder how much of it he actually believes.
Either that or our relationship is not as good as I thought it was!!

But I'm not sure whether to keep quiet or try and bring it up with him. I think we could have a very interesting conversation, but I know hubbie will not approve and in fact will be furious if I do. That would be straying over the tacit agreement that has "kept the peace" for the past few months. I think even if I don't, son will think it through and start asking some questions, if not of me, of his wonderful RE teacher.

Whatever I do, I just wanted to be able to rant a little, because I haven't got anyone I can ring up and yell out my annoyance at RE teacher. She's quite friendly with various members of husband's family and this comment, coming on top of the essay, has made me quite annoyed as obviously she's aware I now see myself as an atheist.

But any suggestions on how to respond to this, especially from people in similar "mixed" relationships trying to bring up kids would be very welcome.

Hey Cat,
My thoughts are with you; going through much the same thing here. I think the reason that your husband and son are not that concerned about your going to hell, is that they really don't believe it. As a matter of doctrine, the Catholic Church does not say that any particular individual is in hell; even Judas. For a sin to be mortal, and thus lead to hell, it must be knowing and deliberate. A good faith atheist, like you, would not even be a candidate. The doctrine of hell is probably the single Christian doctrine that most lead me away from that faith. It is the problem of evil, without the theodicy of eventual justice. If the RE teacher said "your mom is going to hell" then he is way out of line; but if he said "atheists go to hell" that's the doctrine and that's one of the things RE entails.

Anyway, I know confrontation is hard, so it is easy to justify not bringing the subject up. But it's also hard to be alone without communicating to those you love and who supposedly love you. More and more, I think that just being silent is not a good option. That said, timing can be the difference between a heated argument and actual communication. You might try talking to the RE teacher first, since that would be less emotionally charged.

No answers; just some thoughts and lots of empathy. Good luck. Stay in touch.

[Wylie E.]

If you reply "I don't believe in hell" then they have the problem of proving that there actually is a hell. Without hell the whole religion business becomes meaningless. Deeply religious types can not face this possibility.

[555]

http://www.moloth.com/pics/Religion/1152824418432.jpg

[Cat59]

I'm glad I started this thread, which was a bit of a rant more than anything else, but has helped me crystallise my thoughts and get to grips with things that I had just let slide. We've moved on a bit, hubbie's acknowledged the unreasonableness of me not telling son2 what I believe and why and also we both acknowledge that our relationship has changed as a result of my decoversion, something I think we were both avoiding. We've cautiously set new ground rules, which are basically that there are none with regards to what I say about my beliefs and as far as RE teacher goes and the specifics of the original incident, I've chatted to son2 a bit about it and asked him things that I hope will get him thinking about the contradictions being presented to him in school.
I do need to try and find a humanist group or something to go to locally I think, as I am still very isolated here. Hubbie was very opposed to this before but I think he's begining to see this isn't a phase and that he'll just have to accept my new way of looking things.
Either that, or he's going to have to think about the relationship being in risk of collapsing, which he says he cannot cope with.
So we'll see what happens next time son2 brings this sort of thing up.
Thanks people.

[benjdm]

Wow. Way to go, Cat ! That must have been some doing, both on you and your husband's parts, to work out the compromise. Great job keeping yourself an equal parental influence without starting an apologetics war !

[AllHailMelkor]

I don't know if I'm asking for advice or just having a rant.
Bit of background first. I'm a fairly recent atheist- I was previously a very devout Catholic and came to a sudden and dramatic change in my view of life about a year ago, much to the distress and annoyance of my family, especially my husband. I've fluctuated in my intense desire to regain my faith since, sometimes actively seeking ways to get it back, possibly because of the social and relationship consequences for me, but always coming up against the facts which led me to where I am now and reluctantly and at times emotionally accept atheism for me is here to stay.

My 14 year old son still goes to a Catholic school and still believes. He wrote a rather interesting essay recently about "his mother the atheist" for his RE (Religious education) class. He got an "A" but he won't let me see it.
Husband is extremely twitchy if I get into any sort of discussions about religion with son, although I have managed to talk fairly openly on a number of occasions about why I think and believe this way.

However, today, while on his way out with dad, he suddenly turns to me and informs me his RE teacher informed him yesterday that atheists go to hell, especially ones that have "turned their backs on God."
I started to try and respond but got "the look" from husband and anyway we were on our way out and already late.
He didn't seem too perturbed by the thought of his mother burning in eternal fire, so I wonder how much of it he actually believes.
Either that or our relationship is not as good as I thought it was!!

But I'm not sure whether to keep quiet or try and bring it up with him. I think we could have a very interesting conversation, but I know hubbie will not approve and in fact will be furious if I do. That would be straying over the tacit agreement that has "kept the peace" for the past few months. I think even if I don't, son will think it through and start asking some questions, if not of me, of his wonderful RE teacher.

Whatever I do, I just wanted to be able to rant a little, because I haven't got anyone I can ring up and yell out my annoyance at RE teacher. She's quite friendly with various members of husband's family and this comment, coming on top of the essay, has made me quite annoyed as obviously she's aware I now see myself as an atheist.

But any suggestions on how to respond to this, especially from people in similar "mixed" relationships trying to bring up kids would be very welcome.

I would ask you son to answer you this: Is his mother the atheist the one condemning a person to eternal damnation and fire?

At this stage the best thing to do would be to take a page from your past -- let the merit of your stance speak for itself. Turn the other cheek when attacked and condemned by theists.

[KindBudz]

Sounds like you are going to be able to work things out.
Arguing over what either of you believe is pointless.. avoid it at all costs...

Unfortunately this situation may make the religious people in your life lose respect for you. As some may believe you as just "lost" and going through a "crisis of faith".

Pity and Condescending attitudes from people who once respected you is really annoying... The bad thing is if it comes from the person your married too. I would figure that might cause some long term resentment problems on both sides.

I think theres a passage in the bible somewhere that states you are saved if your spouse is saved. I have no idea where though... Wish I'd known about it a few years ago... :mad:

Well good luck and be open with your beliefs. If you wanted to Lie and Shut up about the truth you could have just stayed a Christian... :grin:

[Giant Space Amoeba]

Im a child of a "mixed" relationship and as you may know a fellow former christian (twice even), my dad didnt protest when my mum took us to church, but really didnt want to talk religion with us, he let us make our own minds up. As far as i can remember he didnt tell us his OP too much. As a second time round liberal christian we would joke a little about christianity.

I just ended up religious like my mother but with inbuilt skeptism from my dad. Now im an atheist but with a little more compassion for the religious ;)

If i were in your shoes id discuss this with my husband. Just to be able to say something now and then with my child, to discuss my beleifs. Encourage free thinking (i think a person can be a beleiver and a free thinker). Thta comment that your son made can be a little hurtful, i did say such things to my non-beleiving family when i was about the same age - it seems like teenagers can be a little bit more militant and agressive at that age about anything and will speak their minds.

I guess your son may grow out of this, or just learn to see things from your POV, or maybe yhe will chat with you sometime.

Anway - hope it goes well for you Cat *hugs*

[Proxima Centauri]

I’m worried about you, Cat. Roman Catholics teach people to be martyrs. Are you still being a martyred Catholic wife and letting your husband exploit you?
You’re the breadwinner, yet he doesn’t respect you. How much does he help in the home? How much does he comfort you with the stresses over your work and over your autistic son? How much does he help with your autistic son or look after your normal son when your autistic son needs you? Please tell us.

[djrafikie]

Don't worry Cat, apparently hell has all of the best musicians... And the sex, lets not forget the sex.

Seriously though, I hope this works out for you honey, you are in a really difficult situation and it is clear that you really love your children and all of this is tearing you up. You probably noticed that pretty much everyone here is rooting for you, I just wanted to add my vote.

Jah love.

[Lel]

This thread makes things real difficult in many ways. *sigh*

*hugs* Cat and family.

[lao tzu]

I do need to try and find a humanist group or something to go to locally I think, as I am still very isolated here. Hubbie was very opposed to this before but I think he's begining to see this isn't a phase and that he'll just have to accept my new way of looking things. Nothing at all against the Humanists, but I think you might want to consider the Unitarians. Most of them are atheist friendly, but still find ways to include a lot of the spirituality of more overtly theistic traditions. And besides, it might be something you could both attend together as a compromise.

As ever, Jesse

[Cat59]

Thanks for the tip, Jesse.
B. Shack- no need for concern, although I acknowledge there are times that I'm a bit of a doormat, it's less often and in terms of practical issues, hubbie is second to none, especially with regards to looking after the kids. We are both working through the havoc my deconversion one year ago has caused and there are times when it is as difficult for him as it is for me. And that is not being a martyr, that is just stating the truth...

[QuakeAttack]

Great thread (not that fact that Ca59 has to deal with this issue in her family)...

I expect to go through this somewhat in the next couple of years. I have always been an atheist/agnostic and my wife is Catholic. When we married, I agreed that our children could be taught a Catholic school, but when they become of high school age, I could start discussing my "beliefs" and posing questions to him/her. My sons (4 of them) know that I don't believe in a god, but I attend church with them and support them...

Well, my son is 13 and starts high school next year. My wife appears to be getting a little worried about talking to the kids. Last night at the dinner table, she was reading out loud the high school application (for Catholic HS) and joked about Dad's religion being "agnostics". I replied back that I'm probably back to being an atheist. She got upset and told me that word can't be used in the house. I didn't take a big offense with her response because she tends to be melodramatic at times. However, I do attend to talk with her about her response tonight to understand further.

Fortunately, my son's don't appear to have a strong attachment to religion, nor do they question me. They would rather play sports, watch TV, and play video games. Shocking!

Back to topic of the thread. I think its important to set up rules and guidelines in your marriage with respect to many things, including religion. However, it's also important that you respect yourself and your spouse. I like that you have talked with your husband and have started the process. As long as you continue to have a dialog with your husband and your son(s), you should be OK.

[Rosa Mystica]

Great thread (not that fact that Ca59 has to deal with this issue in her family)...

I expect to go through this somewhat in the next couple of years. I have always been an atheist/agnostic and my wife is Catholic. When we married, I agreed that our children could be taught a Catholic school, but when they become of high school age, I could start discussing my "beliefs" and posing questions to him/her. My sons (4 of them) know that I don't believe in a god, but I attend church with them and support them...

Well, my son is 13 and starts high school next year. My wife appears to be getting a little worried about talking to the kids. Last night at the dinner table, she was reading out loud the high school application (for Catholic HS) and joked about Dad's religion being "agnostics". I replied back that I'm probably back to being an atheist. She got upset and told me that word can't be used in the house. I didn't take a big offense with her response because she tends to be melodramatic at times. However, I do attend to talk with her about her response tonight to understand further.

Fortunately, my son's don't appear to have a strong attachment to religion, nor do they question me. They would rather play sports, watch TV, and play video games. Shocking!

Back to topic of the thread. I think its important to set up rules and guidelines in your marriage with respect to many things, including religion. However, it's also important that you respect yourself and your spouse. I like that you have talked with your husband and have started the process. As long as you continue to have a dialog with your husband and your son(s), you should be OK.

She's going to make you hide your opinions from your kids? That's not appropriate at all. Even when I was the Catholic in a mixed faith relationship, I *never* expected that my SO would hide his opinions from our kids if we married. It *did* bother me on some level, b/c of religious conditioning, but I also knew that that's how it had to be if we were to have a future together. Making someone fake their true self is bound to cause long term damage. Of course, it's a great relief to both of us now that I'm out of that harmful system, but that's another story. ;)

Hope the discussion with your wife went well.

[Cat59]

I agree Rosa, it's not a good thing. It was one of the first difficulties I had to tackle and I couldn't have seen our relationship surviving if I had not been allowed to express opinions.
Quake Attack- I hope the talk went well too. I have found that working on things "bite size" is working, though we did have a fairly huge discussion on my "deconversion anniversary" day this week about the whole year and the impact on our lives and our relationship. I think, reading between the lines, that some of the things I have said over the last year are hitting home, I've started to ever so gently challenge certain topics and he admits to not being able to fully understand or explain them. And he also acknowledges, now that I've managed to talk to him about some of the negative aspects that my religious upbringing came with, that he does not want our sons to experience similar problems.
But it all takes time, time for both of us to think and process the other's reaction and also our own. I'm much more optimistic about the whole thing now than when I started the thread. Hope things go well for you too.

[Griff]

Well, what I would have said is "How can they know that? It could as easily be that Catholics go the Hell, and atheists go to Heaven, for they have no way of knowing. They have their belief, but what good is that without observation? Without observation, one cannot claim one thing or another about something. Have they seen Heaven? Have they seen Hell? Did they go through the population of both, interviewing them to discover which religion they held during life? No. I would count on them having done nothing of the sort, and yet they have told you that atheists go to Hell." Probably the most successful argument to ply on the husband would be that thinking that his mother is going to Hell could leave the child traumatized. I would also raise this issue with his teacher, defending your position mainly with the fact that this issue could become a disruption to the child's family. If the teacher refuses to show regard for your family's welfare, I would consider drawing the child out of that class permanently. If the father attempts to interfere, do feel free to use force and threats: Christians tend to be arrogant and pushy on this subject, and they occassionally need to be put in their place.

[QuakeAttack]

I agree Rosa, it's not a good thing. It was one of the first difficulties I had to tackle and I couldn't have seen our relationship surviving if I had not been allowed to express opinions.
Quake Attack- I hope the talk went well too. I have found that working on things "bite size" is working, though we did have a fairly huge discussion on my "deconversion anniversary" day this week about the whole year and the impact on our lives and our relationship. I think, reading between the lines, that some of the things I have said over the last year are hitting home, I've started to ever so gently challenge certain topics and he admits to not being able to fully understand or explain them. And he also acknowledges, now that I've managed to talk to him about some of the negative aspects that my religious upbringing came with, that he does not want our sons to experience similar problems.
But it all takes time, time for both of us to think and process the other's reaction and also our own. I'm much more optimistic about the whole thing now than when I started the thread. Hope things go well for you too.

Yes and no.

First, thanks for the feedback (including Rosa). Let me clarify that I do have the opportunity to express my opinion and do so. However, I have to balance the fact that trying to discuss free will, nature evil, etc and have a rational conversation with a 8-11 year old can be difficult. Frankly, I can count on my hand the number of times my kids have asked questions with respect to a god and most of the questions were asked at a really young age. None of my kids have a problem with my not believing in god and they have never asked why (blame me for not teaching them to be more inquisitive!). Guess what? I never asked my dad why he didn't believe in a god.

Back to the conversation. My wife has no problem with me being agnostic, but she can't accept atheist because in her opinion they deny the existence of a god. She nows that she will never convert me (However, I'm sure that she always hope that may be possible. You know. The faith thing...). Also, I found some interesting tid bits about me in the local community. One of the priest feels that it's my mission to convert my family (Fortunately, she understands that it's not true). Also, one of my wife's friend's son told her that I was an atheist. Both my wife and her friend (who I'm good friend's with) agree that her son doesn't know the difference between agnostic and atheist. The bottom line is that wife still supports me and I still support her.

I look at religion as a blanket. Some people need the comfort/security and other don't. As long as the blanket is not pulled over your head to cover the wrong's of religion, I have no problem with people using the blanket. My wife try's to focus on the positive aspects of religion rather than the negative.

Enough about me. I agree with you that it will take time for you and your husband. Some things will never be agreed on. I always liked the phase that marriage is finding agreements in the disagreements. Also, I would point that I would never accept a teacher telling my children that I'm a bad person (I.e. going to hell). He/she would not be teaching my children. Of course, they would have just thought the teacher to be stupid because they know that I'm a great guy!

[Cat59]

So we had another discussion this morning about things he's learning in RE, mainly about the teachings regarding sex. It transpires that Miss P is being a little coy and trying not to tell them things that might provoke too many questions. Son2 was aware sex before marriage was outlawed and that the church was against abortion but hadn't quite taken on board the overall teachings of the church, and their ramifications for a teenager these days which I sort of outlined to him. He responded to them somewhat open mouthed, finally muttering to me "Just because Jesus's mother was a virgin doesn't mean to say he has to inflict it on the rest of us..."
So he's gone off to school now, with a few questions in his head for Miss P.

[benjdm]

So he's gone off to school now, with a few questions in his head for Miss P.
Indirect troublemaking ? :funny: :notworthy:

[JamesBannon]

However, today, while on his way out with dad, he suddenly turns to me and informs me his RE teacher informed him yesterday that atheists go to hell, especially ones that have "turned their backs on God."
I started to try and respond but got "the look" from husband and anyway we were on our way out and already late.
He didn't seem too perturbed by the thought of his mother burning in eternal fire, so I wonder how much of it he actually believes.
I'm rather surprised at this reaction from a 14 year old towards someone saying that about his mother. I had a similar experience when I was 14. I was told by my RE teacher that my mother was probably going to hell because she was a Protestant (my father was Roman Catholic so I ended up at a Roman Catholic school - tradition). He had bruised legs for a week where the toe of my shoe met his shin several times. Of course I got into trouble for it, got the belt, sent home and so forth, but the priest who was my RE teacher never broached the subject again in my presence. Lucky for him because I made it perfectly clear to the headmaster that the same thing would happen if he insulted my mother again.

I am also rather surprised about your husband's reaction. If any RE teacher said that of my wife they wouldn't survive the experience. I would have their guts for a necktie. Even today, when I've been divorced for over 12 years, someone insulting my ex-wife for being in a lesbian relationship makes me very angry. My family has learned not to insult her in my presence.

I realise that to some this may seem a bit weird but there is such a thing as loyalty and it's important.

[Don Alhambra]

"Just because Jesus's mother was a virgin doesn't mean to say he has to inflict it on the rest of us..."

That's beautiful. :D

[Rosa Mystica]

So he's gone off to school now, with a few questions in his head for Miss P.

Yikes. I'm betting he won't like the answers to most of them, either. Because in his religion, if something feels good, it's "sinful" and will send you to Hell.:rolleyes:

[Britannicus]

<edit> Fundamentally, Cat, you need to have a sit down with you husband. There needs to be a bit more honesty and respect in that relationship, if you'll pardon me for saying so, and you need to say to him that you respect his beliefs but he needs to respect yours and that, at your sons age, there should be nothing to stop him questioning accepted orthodoxies and that includes your husband's (and his own) faith. It is not fair for him to expect you to keep silent and allow your son to be taught that your are going to 'burn for all eternity'. If his faith is strong, then it should be able to withstand a little scrutiny. That's always been my motto. <edit>
All the best.

[Professor]

Well, what I would have said is "How can they know that? It could as easily be that Catholics go the Hell, and atheists go to Heaven, for they have no way of knowing..."

Indeed. Theists are fond of saying that God's ways are mysterious, but they never seem to consider the consequences of that assertion.