Atheism and Moral Issues: Statistics

[JaronK]

Alright. I'm sure we've all heard charges that atheists are immoral, or similar concepts, and there's never any evidence to back these claims up. However, one can't really debate such things without a little evidence to work from. So, does anyone have any actual studies on the following?

1) Marriage/Divorce rates among various religeous groups, including atheists.

2) Crime, especially murder, rates as divided by religeon.

3) Any other similar relevant statistics, especially regarding crimes mentioned in various religeons (Thou Shalt Not Kill -> Murder rates)

Essencially my purpose here is to see if having a crime or behavior mentioned as being negative in a religeon has any effect on the rate in which followers of that religeon follow that behavior.

JaronK

[rationalOne]

Alright. I'm sure we've all heard charges that atheists are immoral, or similar concepts, and there's never any evidence to back these claims up. However, one can't really debate such things without a little evidence to work from. Well, there was this recent story: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html)“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

[Smullyan-esque]

There are quite significant statistics about the proportion of prison inmates that are atheist compared to the proportion of the general population that are atheist.

[Wacky Prune]

It's best to divide the correlation by religion (as opposed to theist vs. atheist). It's unfair to compare an extreme minority to the majority.

[Laura D.]

There are quite significant statistics about the proportion of prison inmates that are atheist compared to the proportion of the general population that are atheist.

I sought direct source statistics,

United Kingdom Home Office:

HOSB Religion in Prisons 1999 and 2000 15/01 England and Wales (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/?view=Search+results&simpleOrAdvanced=simple&contentType=All&searchHostsAll=All&externalSearchMaxResults=150&rnum=95058312&excludeSitePath=www.homeoffice.gov.uk%7C%2Fhons%2F%7C%2Fdocuments%2Fcons-2006-psa-targets%24&searchTerm=Religion+in+Prisons)

And direct link to PDF file: www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hosb1501.pdf.

And,

An Associated Press Story (give it what weight you choose):

More prison inmates say they're Baptist Than any other religion (http://www.texnews.com/news/inmates110896.html).

You can also obtain quoted statistics from both Atheist and Christian/Religious web sites (again, giving them the weight you choose).

I played around with the Federal Bureau of Prisons but all I could get was the weekly report on number of prisoners.

One source that favors the Atheist argument is the Holysmokes.org 1997 statistics. This is where you generally see the .2% atheist number. It discounts the 20% plus who did not answer (which you may evaluate as legitimate or not depending on your analytical preference). I suspect this is the primary solid source relied on by those favoring the atheist side of the argument. I also saw some 1925 and 1927 studies, but those seemed problematic.

Based on the evidence I've seen, I would not feel comfortable making a correlation either way. Although, I can say I see that I saw nothing that leads me to believe atheists are more or less ethical than any other discrete population.

I suspect someone may have the results of a more recent FOIA request.

God bless,



Laura

[JesusWasHomeless]

I dont know many statistics off the top of my head. but i can tell you that religious groups are no more "Moral" than any other group. they just like to think of themselves that way. they say there moral because they believe talking about morals alot makes you moral. its dumb.

[JaronK]

I agree with that sentiment, however simply saying "I get the impression that" doesn't help against someone who simply feels the opposite way. One needs numbers and hard facts to debate these things.

JaronK

[orandj]

Tempting though it is to try and prove that atheism shows no greater association with immorailty than various religious groupings...we need to be careful not to drop into the same number games. (lies, damn lies and statistics). By trying to be more honest (scientifically valid) in our own claims we actually model a morality in our very methods. Are we trying to prove that atheists are MORE virtuous than everyone else? Why would athesists actually be MORE moral unless we suppose that religion actually corrupts people's morality. Again, even if one does make such a claim (and I don't) can we realistically hope to use statistics to prove such a point?

Can we even prove meangfully that there is no difference between our moralities? May be not, the evidence may well be insignificant to state either way. And are such correlations meaningful even if they were significant? You can correlate all sorts of variables and yet the associations can often make a nonsense of their significance (can anyone remember any good examples of this?...I used to know some...forgotten them!) If we demonstrate our understanding of this truth we a) show a honesty and rigour that reflects well on us, and b) will not be open to such criticism ourselves.

I know we are under attack and need all the defence we can find, but I think we need to see the rather shrill hysteria of some religious folks for what it is...they are seriously undermined by some of the positions we adopt. We need to be calm under pressure and use science wisely and appropriately in our defence.

[Nialler]

I tried to research this issue a couple of years ago and ploughed through a lot of reports and statistics on the issue. I spoke to a couple of prison staff about it as well.

My conclusion was that it was extremely difficult to come to any firm conclusion about the prison statistics. Prison is a highly-stressed environment, and imposes a set of stresses which may impact on the choices one makes.

Many prisoners "turn to god" as a means to convince the parole board of their change of direction.
Some do so in order to avail of the extra association time which comes with a religious service.
Religion itself is an escape and gives false hope to someone in despair; it is no surprise if someone turns to it.

These could combine to present an exaggerated link between religion and criminality.

There are social and educational issues too; if religious membership is more prevalent at the lower strata of society, then the figures will be skewed.

There are other special cases too: my guess is that the number of religious people in, say, Guantanemo, is close to 100%.

[reddhedd]

Many prisoners "turn to god" as a means to convince the parole board of their change of direction.
Some do so in order to avail of the extra association time which comes with a religious service.
Religion itself is an escape and gives false hope to someone in despair; it is no surprise if someone turns to it.

These could combine to present an exaggerated link between religion and criminality.

There are social and educational issues too; if religious membership is more prevalent at the lower strata of society, then the figures will be skewed.

There are other special cases too: my guess is that the number of religious people in, say, Guantanemo, is close to 100%.


So, do you think if we surveyed criminals to poll their religious affiliation prior to crime, and graphed that data according to amount of regular church type activity, we might get a more accurate picture?


redd