Two embarrassing questions for Christians

[Johnny Skeptic]

What benefits does God derive from refusing to clearly reveal his existence and will to everyone? What benefits does mankind derive from this detestable behavior?

[Wacky Prune]

Very devastating questions indeed :rolleyes:

[Mav]

The one question I use on christians is this one: "So let me get this straight, I worship him and server his will here on Earth, then worship him and server his will in heaven for eternity?....isn't that eternal slavery?"

Your first question is a good one.. they might answer with "Well god does not want man to come running to him out of fear, he wants them to come to him of their own free will......Then fear him.:(

Benefits....the only benefits I can come up with at this hour of the morning is that of money. If god revealed his self to all on a global scale, the pope couldn't afford those fancy robes and his Post Hole Digger hat of his.

[Barney]

What benefits does God derive from refusing to clearly reveal his existence and will to everyone? What benefits does mankind derive from this detestable behavior?

During my own Fundamentalist Christian days I met many who would always insist that God has clearly revealed his existence and will to everyone. (Yet, given that those who insist upon this are normally at loggerheads with each other as to exactly what that will is, they do seem to be wrong!)

Apart from this, I think that a Christian answer would possibly revolve around the question of ethics. For instance, if any human being knew beyond any doubt that "to give" was the will of God and would receive its due reward, then it would cease to be "giving" in the full sense of the term. To a certain extent morality would turn into mere self interest. Deeds of great self sacrifice would in many ways cease to be possible, or at least would contain no genuine "sacrifice"!

I will have to reflect upon this a bit more, and would invite comments/criticisms.

Thanks
:)

[Cynic of Mammon]

During my own Fundamentalist Christian days I met many who would always insist that God has clearly revealed his existence and will to everyone. (Yet, given that those who insist upon this are normally at loggerheads with each other as to exactly what that will is, they do seem to be wrong!)

Apart from this, I think that a Christian answer would possibly revolve around the question of ethics. For instance, if any human being knew beyond any doubt that "to give" was the will of God and would receive its due reward, then it would cease to be "giving" in the full sense of the term. To a certain extent morality would turn into mere self interest. Deeds of great self sacrifice would in many ways cease to be possible, or at least would contain no genuine "sacrifice"!

I will have to reflect upon this a bit more, and would invite comments/criticisms.

Thanks
:)

Spot on, those are the traditional fundamentalist responses. Quite good ones too, as it goes.
I can't see any answer to "What does God get..." though: satisfaction? sadistic gratification? Anyone know?:huh:

[djrafikie]

If a tree falls in the woods and there is no-one to hear it, does it make a sound?

"what does god get...."

[PostMortem]

Very devastating questions indeed :rolleyes:

Why not answer him then?:rolleyes:

[jdlongmire]

What benefits does God derive from refusing to clearly reveal his existence and will to everyone? What benefits does mankind derive from this (deleted presuppositional strawman qualifier) behavior?

Why do you think it is to His benefit?

John 20
22-23Then he took a deep breath and breathed into them. "Receive the Holy Spirit," he said. "If you forgive someone's sins, they're gone for good. If you don't forgive sins, what are you going to do with them?"

24-25But Thomas, sometimes called the Twin, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples told him, "We saw the Master."

But he said, "Unless I see the nail holes in his hands, put my finger in the nail holes, and stick my hand in his side, I won't believe it."

26Eight days later, his disciples were again in the room. This time Thomas was with them. Jesus came through the locked doors, stood among them, and said, "Peace to you."

27Then he focused his attention on Thomas. "Take your finger and examine my hands. Take your hand and stick it in my side. Don't be unbelieving. Believe."

28Thomas said, "My Master! My God!"

29Jesus said, "So, you believe because you've seen with your own eyes. Even better blessings are in store for those who believe without seeing."


so embarrassing, so devastating...

-pax-

-JD

note (http://tinyurl.com/y7s2m4)

[Tigers!]

What benefits does God derive from refusing to clearly reveal his existence and will to everyone?
Why the assumption that God gets any benefit from his alleged refusal?


What benefits does mankind derive from this detestable behavior?
Again assuming the alleged detestable behaivour you get a lot of opportunity to complain and whinge about it. Must be helping your typing skills.

[Johnny Skeptic]

Why the assumption that God gets any benefit from his alleged refusal?

Consider the following Scriptures:

Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Isaiah 12:22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.

Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Johnny: I had assumed from those Scriptures that God derives pleasure from loving and helping mankind, at least on an inconsistent and apathetic basis. Have you arrived at a different conclusion? If God does not exist, it is to be expected that today, tangible benefits would be distributed entirely at random according the laws of physics without any regard whatsoever for a person's worldview. This is exactly the situation that we have today. There are not any good reasons for anyone to conclude that it was any different during the time of Jesus. Today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. Why should anyone believe that it was any different back then?

Can you give me an example of a tangible benefit that you can ask God for and expect to receive?

Again assuming the alleged detestable behavior you get a lot of opportunity to complain and whinge about it. Must be helping your typing skills.

But what benefits does mankind derive from God's refusal to clearly reveal himself to everyone? If Jesus returned to earth and performed miracles all over the world, are you going to tell us that not even one single person would become a Christian who was not previously convinced?

I also find it to be detestable that God says that killing people is wrong, but kills some of his most devout and faithful followers, and babies, and innocent animals makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11, punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed, ordered the death penalty for a Jew who killed a Jew, but not for a Jew who killed a slave, and did not have the common decency to insprire the Bible writers to clearly state that slavery, colonization, and the subjugation of women are wrong. If God told lies, you would not be able to love him. Why do you believe that telling lies is any worse that the atrocities that God has committed against mankind. If God exists, at best, he is bi-polar and mentally incompetent. Even Attila the Hun did not kill some of his most devout and faithful followers.

[post tenebras lux]

Very devastating questions indeed :rolleyes:Why not answer him then?:rolleyes:Well Wacky Prune claims to believe in 'Islam all the way; monotheism; Ghandhism' so I'm guessing that s/he isn't a christian.

Johnny can expand his questions so as to include Wacky Prune, thus enabling Wacky Prune to post a reply.

Or we can just wonder why Wacky Prune bothered to post her/his comment given that s/he isn't a christian. :rolleyes:

[post tenebras lux]

During my own Fundamentalist Christian days I met many who would always insist that God has clearly revealed his existence and will to everyone. (Yet, given that those who insist upon this are normally at loggerheads with each other as to exactly what that will is, they do seem to be wrong!)

Apart from this, I think that a Christian answer would possibly revolve around the question of ethics. For instance, if any human being knew beyond any doubt that "to give" was the will of God and would receive its due reward, then it would cease to be "giving" in the full sense of the term. To a certain extent morality would turn into mere self interest. Deeds of great self sacrifice would in many ways cease to be possible, or at least would contain no genuine "sacrifice"!

I will have to reflect upon this a bit more, and would invite comments/criticisms.

Thanks
:)Spot on, those are the traditional fundamentalist responses. Quite good ones too, as it goes.
I can't see any answer to "What does God get..." though: satisfaction? sadistic gratification? Anyone know?:huh:Except that this ignores another major claim (which totally undermines the 'ethical' question) often made by certain - fundy - christians regarding 'Good Works, etc.': that we are meant to perform these acts of charity, etc. as a way to bring praise and glory to their god. It is not the giving that is good, it is the praise and glory given to their god by - and during - the act of giving that is good.

Hence my humanitarian acts are not 'good' or even commendable as I don't give all the credit and glory for my acts to their god.

If it is less ethical to do simple acts of charity because it would be more ethical to do these same acts of charity whilst giving praise and glory to the christian god, then surely having a god who revealed himself would lead to more ethical behaviour by us sinful humans. :huh:

[Ubercat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic
What benefits does God derive from refusing to clearly reveal his existence and will to everyone? What benefits does mankind derive from this (deleted presuppositional strawman qualifier) behavior?


Why do you think it is to His benefit?


Strange question from you, after you just told people in another thread, that everything biblegod does is for his own glory. biblegod must REALLY love you, to change his motives at the drop of a hat, when it is convenient for you.

-Ubercat

[sharon45]

What benefits does God derive from refusing to clearly reveal his existence and will to everyone? What benefits does mankind derive from this detestable behavior?The point of the confidence game is to rely on a relationship of trust based only on faith and the total benefit is for the perpetrator not the prey.

[jdlongmire]

everything [/I]biblegod does is for his own glory. biblegod must REALLY love you, to change his motives at the drop of a hat, when it is convenient for you.

-Ubercat

benefit:

- financial assistance in time of need
- something that aids or promotes well-being; "for the common good"
- profit: derive a benefit from; "She profited from his vast experience"
- a performance to raise money for a charitable cause
- be beneficial for; "This will do you good"


vs.

glory:

- a state of high honor
- brilliant radiant beauty; "the glory of the sunrise"
- aura: an indication of radiant light drawn around the head of a saint
- rejoice proudly

-pax-

-JD

note (http://tinyurl.com/y7s2m4)

[show_no_mercy]

What benefits does God derive from refusing to clearly reveal his existence and will to everyone?

Heh:

I dunno... ask God

[gregor]

Well, I wanted to see and believe, but . . .

2 Thess 2:

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth.

It's just the hardened Pharoh heart all over again.

[Tigers!]

Consider the following Scriptures:

Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Isaiah 12:22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.

Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Johnny: I had assumed from those Scriptures that God derives pleasure from loving and helping mankind, at least on an inconsistent and apathetic basis. Have you arrived at a different conclusion?
I believe God does derive pleasure from such.

Today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. Why should anyone believe that it was any different back then?
I don't believe it was different back then. People can be stubborn and perverse on occasions.

Can you give me an example of a tangible benefit that you can ask God for and expect to receive?
I'll ask him for my next breath.
Ah, that was a nice breath.



But what benefits does mankind derive from God's refusal to clearly reveal himself to everyone?
You still talk about God's refusal to clearly reveal himself. I have no doubt that he has clearly revealed himself. If you do not agree that is your problem not mine.

If Jesus returned to earth and performed miracles all over the world, are you going to tell us that not even one single person would become a Christian who was not previously convinced?
Are you the single person you have in mind or would you still refuse to be convinced?

[Johnny Skeptic]

If Jesus returned to earth and performed miracles all over the world, are you going to tell us that not even one single person would become a Christian who was not previously convinced?

Are you the single person you have in mind or would you still refuse to be convinced?

As far as I know, since any being might be an imposter, it would be impossible for any being to prove beyond any doubt that he is Jesus. If a being showed up, claimed that he was Jesus, and proved that he could create a large building, or a planet, in one second, I would be neutral regarding his claim that he was Jesus, but human nature being what it is, many people would believe his claim, in which case if he was Jesus, some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. I would ask the being lots of questions about God’s many questionable actions and allowances. If I was satisfied with his answers, and if he agreed to provide me with a comfortable eternal life, I would accept him. If I was not satisfied with his answers, I would not be able to will myself to accept him.

I make no apologies for objecting to a God who 1) says that killing people is wrong, but kills some of his most devout and faithful followers with hurricanes, or allows them to be killed with hurricanes, which as far as I and many other people are concerned is exactly the same thing, 2) makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11, 3) punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed, reference Exodus 20:5, 4) ordered the death penalty for a Jew who killed a Jew, but not for a Jew who killed a slave, 5) killed Ananias and Saphira over money, 6) could easily have prevented the U.S. Civil War by telling Jefferson Davis, a Christian who was President of the Southern Confederacy, that slavery is wrong, 7) endorses unmerciful eternal punishment without parole, 8) distributes tangible benefits without any regard whatsoever for a person’s worldview, which gives many people the impression that tangible benefits are distributed entirely at random according to the laws of physics, 9) refuses to reveal himself to some people who would accept him if they had sufficient evidence to their satisfaction that he exists.

2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, meaning not even one single person. That is obviously a lie since God could easily provide additional evidence that would cause some people to become Christians who were not previously convinced.

I consider it to be a sign of good character to oppose God’s many atrocities against mankind. Christians would surely object if any other being committed those atrocities against mankind. If God told lies, most Christians would not be able to love him. I do not see how telling lies is any worse than the many atrocities that God has committed against mankind. If God exists, at best, he is bi-polar and mentally incompetent. Even Attila the Hun did not kill some of his most devout and faithful followers, or allow them to be killed. Of course, the best evidence indicates that the God of the Bible does not exist.

[DBT]

Why do you think it is to His benefit?

Quote:
John 20
22-23Then he took a deep breath and breathed into them. "Receive the Holy Spirit," he said. "If you forgive someone's sins, they're gone for good. If you don't forgive sins, what are you going to do with them?"

24-25But Thomas, sometimes called the Twin, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples told him, "We saw the Master."

But he said, "Unless I see the nail holes in his hands, put my finger in the nail holes, and stick my hand in his side, I won't believe it."

26Eight days later, his disciples were again in the room. This time Thomas was with them. Jesus came through the locked doors, stood among them, and said, "Peace to you."

27Then he focused his attention on Thomas. "Take your finger and examine my hands. Take your hand and stick it in my side. Don't be unbelieving. Believe."
28Thomas said, "My Master! My God!"

29Jesus said, "So, you believe because you've seen with your own eyes. Even better blessings are in store for those who believe without seeing."



so embarrassing, so devastating...

-pax-

-JD

note (http://tinyurl.com/y7s2m4)

Damn, it's easy to quote from scripture, and one can always be really certain of having all the facts in regard to big questions in life.


"The Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, Krsna, personally appeared as the son of Vasudeva. Before He appeared, all the demigods, along with their wives, appeared in different pious families in the world just to assist the Lord in executing His mission. The exact word used here is tatpriyartham, which means the demigods should appear on the earth in order to please the Lord. In other words, any living entity who lives only to satisfy the Lord is a demigod"


"We can understand from Brahma-samhita that the brahmajyoti, or the Brahman effulgence, emanates from the body of the Supreme Lord. And from the Brahman effulgence, all creation takes place. It is further stated in the Bhagavad-gita that the Lord is also the support of the Brahman effulgence. Originally He is the root cause of everything. But persons who are less intelligent think that when the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes within this material world, He accepts the material qualities."

[jdlongmire]

DBT - no one is contesting that there are bits of truth in other scriptures.

But there is only one complete and revealed way, truth and life - Jesus Christ.

-pax-

-JD

note (http://tinyurl.com/y7s2m4)

[DBT]

DBT - no one is contesting that there are bits of truth in other scriptures.

But there is only one complete and revealed way, truth and life - Jesus Christ.

-pax-

-JD

note (http://tinyurl.com/y7s2m4)

Ther is no more truth in other scriptures than there is in the bible, my post was meant to be satirical. :huh:

[jdlongmire]

really? :angel:

-pax-

-JD

note (http://tinyurl.com/y7s2m4)

[DBT]

really? :angel:

-pax-

-JD

note (http://tinyurl.com/y7s2m4)

Do you see any clear evidence for the existence of Shiva? Krishna? Brahma?
Now apply the same scrutiny to your own faith....

[jdlongmire]

I have. (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=183624)

-pax-

-JD

note (http://tinyurl.com/y7s2m4)

[sharon45]

I have. (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=183624)DBT - no one is contesting that there are bits of truth in other scriptures.

But there is only one complete and revealed way, truth and life - Jesus Christ.Obviously you have'nt really since this is what you've come up with.

[EthnAlln]

What benefits does God derive from refusing to clearly reveal his existence and will to everyone?

Good question. It dovetails neatly with the explanation I often get for kids-with-cancer, namely that if everything were too good for us here on Earth, we wouldn't acknowledge our need for God. So kids have to get sick in order that we can (through some special species of logic that escapes me) infer that the cause of the sickness is a loving god. That doesn't deprive us of our free will, whereas a simple, unambiguous demonstration would do so. I admit I don't get it.


What benefits does mankind derive from this detestable behavior?

Well, of course, we'll have to wait and see what answers come from those who think there are such benefits. Trying to put myself inside their mindset, I can't come up with anything other than our supposed freedom to serve or not serve a god, in other words, to make Pascal's wager or decline it.

[Marduk]

“What benefits does God derive from refusing to clearly reveal his existence and will to everyone? What benefits does mankind derive from this detestable behavior?”

Best guess, the whole God experience is meant to be personal/subjective from within, life changing etc. not to show up on Earth as a big cop or dictator and be as boring and annoying as george bush. A ‘relationship’ as the fundys always say.