I think I'm a theist.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Even though I know it won’t be popular here, I just thought I would let you all know I think I’m still a Christian, well sort of. However, with some very heretical leanings, so I’m sure the Rev. Muse will not consider me as one of the flock. I don’t believe in the eternal hell, I don’t believe in inerrancey, I believe the bible is to be read spiritually not literally. I don’t believe in exclusiveism… for instance I believe that the Buddha was enlightened from god and that all religions are paths to the truth. However I do believe in Jesus and that he has a very special relationship with god and a special purpose for mankind, but may not actually be god, at least not in the traditional Christian sense. I DO affirm the fact of evolution, so I am a theistic evolutionist. I don’t have it all figured out and I know I can’t prove anything and I don’t mind that… all I know is that my heart cries out to Jesus, as tacky as that sounds.

I credit seebs, Magus55, angela2 and Classical and also others for showing me that I don't have to be a fundy to believe in something more.

[Berthold]

I credit seebs, Magus55, angela2 and Classical and also others for showing me that I don't have to be a fundy to believe in something more.
Just don't count on their unanimity concerning what a theist (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=183136) is. :)

[angela2]

Even though I know it won’t be popular here, I just thought I would let you all know I think I’m still a Christian, well sort of. However, with some very heretical leanings, so I’m sure the Rev. Muse will not consider me as one of the flock. I don’t believe in the eternal hell, I don’t believe in inerrancey, I believe the bible is to be read spiritually not literally. I don’t believe in exclusiveism… for instance I believe that the Buddha was enlightened from god and that all religions are paths to the truth. However I do believe in Jesus and that he has a very special relationship with god and a special purpose for mankind, but may not actually be god, at least not in the traditional Christian sense. I DO affirm the fact of evolution, so I am a theistic evolutionist. I don’t have it all figured out and I know I can’t prove anything and I don’t mind that… all I know is that my heart cries out to Jesus, as tacky as that sounds.

I credit seebs, Maguss55, angela2 and others for showing me that I don't have to be a fundy to believe in something more.
Wow! I hope and believe you'll find more peace of mind in this decision.

"Faith seeking understanding" is an ancient Christian descriptor. I've changed my mind about lots of Christian topics over the years. I think the goal, at least my goal, as a Christian is to keep growing.

BTW, I gave you info but Jesus touched your heart. He deserves the credit.

I admire your courage. I'll keep a bunch of millstones handy.

[jdlongmire]

so I’m sure the Rev. Muse will not consider me as one of the flock.

Well, I would just consider you on the path to sanctification and that your doctrine will improve as you spiritually mature. :D

-pax-

-JD

note (http://tinyurl.com/y7s2m4)

[JustBlazed]

BTW, I gave you info but Jesus touched your heart. He deserves the credit.


http://gozips.uakron.edu/~klm10/images/buddychrist.jpg

[seebs]

OH NOES!

Now you will have cooties!

:P

Seriously, if you have found a better thing to believe in than a magic spellbook that keeps God from burning you, I'm all for that.

[Donkeykong]

.

I admire your courage. I'll keep a bunch of millstones handy.

I could make a suggestion about tying one around your neck and jumping in the nearest body of water, but that would be mean:devil3: I KID I KID:angel:

[funinspace]

Hey Blackwater, best wishes :wave: You might consider checking out Eastern Orthodoxy for their near Universalist views if you haven't already. You might fit in with some of the UMC types as well, depending on what part of the country your in. UMCOR does a good/efficient job helping the needy as well, if thats your thing.

[Howard]

There’s a program for this affliction known as TA (Theists Anonymous) that helps people overcome their addiction to fairy tale deities. All you need is a firm commitment to be cured and the belief that a lower power can get you through it.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Hey Blackwater, best wishes :wave: You might consider checking out Eastern Orthodoxy for their near Universalist views if you haven't already. You might fit in with some of the UMC types as well, depending on what part of the country your in. UMCOR does a good/efficient job helping the needy as well, if thats your thing.
Thanks funinspace... I don't know what church, if any, I will try. I am interested in the Unitarian Universalists though.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

There’s a program for this affliction known as TA (Theists Anonymous) that helps people overcome their addiction to fairy tale deities. All you need is a firm commitment to be cured and the belief that a lower power can get you through it.
:D You're funny :D

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Well, I would just consider you on the path to sanctification and that your doctrine will improve as you spiritually mature. :D

-pax-

-JD

note (http://tinyurl.com/y7s2m4)
Don't get your hopes up, jd, I was a fundamentalist for 17 years and it is that that I think I have a problem with not so much spirituality in general.

-and peace to you too- :)

[seebs]

I always have to put in a good word for the Quakers. Friendly people (hee! we pun!), and they won't really care whether you're a theist or not.

[geddit?]

I believe the bible is to be read spiritually not literally.


Stop! Don't go!

We've finished the translation!

It's a cookbook!

A COOKBOOK!!!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....

:D

Enjoy the journey Brother:)

[motorhead]

multiple post...sorry

[motorhead]

multiple post

[motorhead]

multiple posts

[motorhead]

Even though I know it won’t be popular here, I just thought I would let you all know I think I’m still a Christian, well sort of. However, with some very heretical leanings, so I’m sure the Rev. Muse will not consider me as one of the flock. I don’t believe in the eternal hell, I don’t believe in inerrancey, I believe the bible is to be read spiritually not literally. I don’t believe in exclusiveism… for instance I believe that the Buddha was enlightened from god and that all religions are paths to the truth. However I do believe in Jesus and that he has a very special relationship with god and a special purpose for mankind, but may not actually be god, at least not in the traditional Christian sense. I DO affirm the fact of evolution, so I am a theistic evolutionist. I don’t have it all figured out and I know I can’t prove anything and I don’t mind that… all I know is that my heart cries out to Jesus, as tacky as that sounds.

I credit seebs, Magus55, angela2 and Classical and also others for showing me that I don't have to be a fundy to believe in something more.

You affirm that all paths are valid but say Jesus is somehow special. Can you elaborate on this more? I've heard others in your position say the same thing but I've never heard why they think this. My personal opinion is these people are most familar with Christianity, so they stick with that path, and they emotionally feel like this path is somehow a bit more special than the other paths.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

You affirm that all paths are valid but say Jesus is somehow special. Can you elaborate on this more? I've heard others in your position say the same thing but I've never heard why they think this. My personal opinion is these people are most familar with Christianity, so they stick with that path, and they emotionally feel like this path is somehow a bit more special than the other paths.
Jesus may be no more than the Buddha or Buddha may be as great as Jesus, I don't know for sure... like i said, I don't have it all figured out yet but I do have a subjective atraction toward Jesus. This may be misplaced, then again it may just where I am supposed to be.

[No Robots]

You affirm that all paths are valid but say Jesus is somehow special. Can you elaborate on this more? I've heard others in your position say the same thing but I've never heard why they think this. My personal opinion is these people are most familar with Christianity, so they stick with that path, and they emotionally feel like this path is somehow a bit more special than the other paths.

See here (http://constantinbrunner.info/sbise/1/200503150938.htm#p12) for a comparison favoring Christ over Buddha:

The figure of Buddha does not exhibit one of those powerful traits which fill to overflowing the account of the wondrous life of Christ the man.

[angela2]

Buddhists' telos is different from Christians'. The former seek nirvana, a great nothingness. For some Christians that describes hell.

Buddhists think creation is something to be escaped. They think of it as hindering them from their final goal. Christians believe God created the world, speaks to us through it, and look forward to creation's recreation along with their own.

Rather large differences such as these make a preference easy.

Me, I'll take communion with God and all creation anytime.

[Russell's Teapot]

Sorry, I could not resist :D

http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/6743/heavensgateszw3.jpg

[sharon45]

I don’t have it all figured out and I know I can’t prove anything and I don’t mind that… all I know is that my heart cries out to Jesus, as tacky as that sounds.Yes indeed.

[Revolutionary]

@OP

Why? I mean, how have you beliefs changed and why have they changed?

[Hedshaker]

......

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring

- Carl Sagan -

Truly great words :p

But good luck if that's what you want.

[ELECTROGOD]

Well, I would just consider you on the path to sanctification and that your doctrine will improve as you spiritually mature.

Hmmm, can you elaborate on what it is to spiritually mature?

[purple_kathryn]

Whatever makes you happy I guess.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

@OP

Why? I mean, how have you beliefs changed and why have they changed?
I don't think I could give a satisfactory answer... Just call it a need.

[Laura D.]

I don’t believe in the eternal hell, I don’t believe in inerrancey, I believe the bible is to be read spiritually not literally. I don’t believe in exclusiveism… for instance I believe that the Buddha was enlightened from god and that all religions are paths to the truth. However I do believe in Jesus and that he has a very special relationship with god and a special purpose for mankind, but may not actually be god, at least not in the traditional Christian sense. I DO affirm the fact of evolution, so I am a theistic evolutionist. I don’t have it all figured out and I know I can’t prove anything and I don’t mind that… all I know is that my heart cries out to Jesus, as tacky as that sounds

Check!

God bless,


Laura

[orac]

for instance I believe that the Buddha was enlightened from god and that all religions are paths to the truth.
So, you say that religions that preach that you should be tortured and murdered for heresy are a "path to the truth" ? How, um, interesting.

How do you feel about religions that preach that it's acceptable and desirable for adult men to take 9yr old girls as their "wife"? Are you sincere whern you say that child abuse is a "path to the truth" as long as the abusers talk about "god" a lot?

Remember, when you say "all religions" that doesn't just include the fuzzy wuzzies who love everybody.


(For any clear-headed rationalists: why is it that theists do the "all religions are true" thing but only talk about the nice bits of some of the nicer religions? If there's one thing that annoys me about theists, it's that they always find out that the god in their blood-pumping-muscle is exactly what they personally find acceptable. They never seem to read their holy book and discover that their personal morality is different to what god wants. Ok, to be fair, many whinge about how "hard" it is to be a nice person. At best, they start out wanting to be nice, and discover that god wants them to be nice. It's like the freaks who claim to meet space aliens and get messages of cosmic harmony and peace, but never get the copy of "advanced diplomacy for dummies" that would help them actually achieve anything.)


all I know is that my heart cries out to Jesus, as tacky as that sounds.
You're so cute. Your heart is "crying out" and you're sure it's crying out for Jesus, which either means you're hearing voices from your chest or you've made a decision without actual evidence that your heart wants "Jesus" instead of "Allah" or "Satan".

And, again, I assume that you admire devil worshippers as being on a "path to the truth", no?


Incidentally, our "friends" here are lovely fuzzy wuzzie theists who believe in cuddly bunnies and beautiful afterlives, but has anyone noticed that they babble inanely asbout how the fundys are wrong, yet never once provide a single reason why we should take them at their word when they claim to know the mind of god?

I weep for the species.

[angela2]

So, you say that religions that preach that you should be tortured and murdered for heresy are a "path to the truth" ? How, um, interesting.

How do you feel about religions that preach that it's acceptable and desirable for adult men to take 9yr old girls as their "wife"? Are you sincere whern you say that child abuse is a "path to the truth" as long as the abusers talk about "god" a lot?

Remember, when you say "all religions" that doesn't just include the fuzzy wuzzies who love everybody.

(For any clear-headed rationalists: why is it that theists do the "all religions are true" thing but only talk about the nice bits of some of the nicer religions? If there's one thing that annoys me about theists, it's that they always find out that the god in their blood-pumping-muscle is exactly what they personally find acceptable. They never seem to read their holy book and discover that their personal morality is different to what god wants. Ok, to be fair, many whinge about how "hard" it is to be a nice person. At best, they start out wanting to be nice, and discover that god wants them to be nice. It's like the freaks who claim to meet space aliens and get messages of cosmic harmony and peace, but never get the copy of "advanced diplomacy for dummies" that would help them actually achieve anything.)


You're so cute. Your heart is "crying out" and you're sure it's crying out for Jesus, which either means you're hearing voices from your chest or you've made a decision without actual evidence that your heart wants "Jesus" instead of "Allah" or "Satan".

And, again, I assume that you admire devil worshippers as being on a "path to the truth", no?

Incidentally, our "friends" here are lovely fuzzy wuzzie theists who believe in cuddly bunnies and beautiful afterlives, but has anyone noticed that they babble inanely asbout how the fundys are wrong, yet never once provide a single reason why we should take them at their word when they claim to know the mind of god?

I weep for the species.
You're safe. No one will ever suspect you of being one of those nice Chrisitans.

[Clivedurdle]

As a former fundy myself, I must ask why you are happy with the lukewarm laodician position?

Why do you still want an imaginary friend? If you do, why not do what Jung did and make up your own? He called his Philemon. I am sure you could make up a far more intersting imaginary world and market it as a new game.

[angela2]

As a former fundy myself, I must ask why you are happy with the lukewarm laodician position?

Why do you still want an imaginary friend? If you do, why not do what Jung did and make up your own? He called his Philemon. I am sure you could make up a far more intersting imaginary world and market it as a new game.
Or we could market your post as a new game.

[Hedshaker]

I don't think I could give a satisfactory answer... Just call it a need.

Blackwater (Little John, am I right?) I say this out of genuine concern. Are you sure you are not back on the slippery slope to the absurdity of fundamentalism?

That would be a shame.

Emotionalism is fine but you cannot force fit reality to what you want it to be. Your short spell as an atheist must have taught you that.

Are you advocating Fideism? If so I have no problem with that :)

[orac]

You're safe. No one will ever suspect you of being one of those nice Chrisitans.
I'm ok with that.

Given the number of children that have been raped and tortured by christians, I'm quite happy to not be in that group.

Just out of curiosity, why is it that you think that praising Jesus in public makes a child molester into a nice person?

[angela2]

I'm ok with that.

Given the number of children that have been raped and tortured by christians, I'm quite happy to not be in that group.

Just out of curiosity, why is it that you think that praising Jesus in public makes a child molester into a nice person?
Just out of curiosity, of what alternative reality do you write?

[No Robots]

Given the number of children that have been raped and tortured by christians, I'm quite happy to not be in that group.

I take it you are not one of our men in uniform either.

[steamer]

Even though I know it won’t be popular here, I just thought I would let you all know I think I’m still a Christian, well sort of.

Did you acquire some actual knowledge of a god or were you sitting around imagining god and decided that you liked the way that feels?

How is this imagining for pleasure different from somones erotic imagining for pleasure? Does imagining for pleasure make one a theist?

[angela2]

Blackwater (Little John, am I right?) I say this out of genuine concern. Are you sure you are not back on the slippery slope to the absurdity of fundamentalism?
Given two of the people who helped him, me and seebs (I don't know much about Magus), I wouldn't worry.

[Donkeykong]

I take it you are not one of our men in uniform either.

And just what do you mean by that?

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Blackwater (Little John, am I right?) I say this out of genuine concern. Are you sure you are not back on the slippery slope to the absurdity of fundamentalism?
yep, I'm little john and no I'm quite certain that fundmentalism is not my goal.


That would be a shame.
It certainly would be a shame.


Emotionalism is fine but you cannot force fit reality to what you want it to be. Your short spell as an atheist must have taught you that.
It is partly emotional but there seems to be something more...


Are you advocating Fideism? If so I have no problem with that :)
What is fideism?

[No Robots]

Given the number of children that have been raped and tortured by christians, I'm quite happy to not be in that group.I take it you are not one of our men in uniform either.
And just what do you mean by that?

See for yourself. (http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444)

[orac]

And just what do you mean by that?
I suspect he means that his knowledge of geography is lacking, and he thinks that "new zealand" is near "new england". Poor guy. ;) I'm not one of his guys at all, in or out of uniform. And haven't got a clue what he meant.

[No Robots]

I suspect he means that his knowledge of geography is lacking, and he thinks that "new zealand" is near "new england". Poor guy. ;) I'm not one of his guys at all, in or out of uniform. And haven't got a clue what he meant.

Yeah, we know Kiwi soldiers don't go in for that kind of thing.:rolleyes:

[Hedshaker]

Given two of the people who helped him, me and seebs (I don't know much about Magus), I wouldn't worry.

Sorry but I'm afraid I do, and I wouldn't describe your or seebs influence as in anyway helpful. But I guess that depends on your point of view. Regarding Magnus, until recently he was a raving young earth fundy. For me there is little difference I'm afraid. Anyone who puts their unmovable, set in stone, beliefs before the evidence are the problem.

I'm a little sadden as to blackwater's shift back into the absurdity of theism but I do understand his history and his emotional need and I wish him well. If he ever finds his way back, we'll be here for him.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

I'm a little sadden as to blackwater's shift back into the absurdity of theism but I do understand his history and his emotional need and I wish him well. If he ever finds his way back, we'll be here for him.
Aw, I didn't want to make anyone sad. I'm still a human being with good intentions. I would still like to be friends with people here... I'm not going to be a raving anti-atheist or anything like that.

[seebs]

Actually, Hedshaker, I am pretty much with you on the dislike for immovable, set in stone, beliefs. The only things I consider immovable and set in stone are that I exist and that I have experiences. Everything else is at least conceivably questionable.

[seebs]

Actually, Hedshaker, I am pretty much with you on the dislike for immovable, set in stone, beliefs. The only things I consider immovable and set in stone are that I exist and that I have experiences. Everything else is at least conceivably questionable.

[Hedshaker]

yep, I'm little john and no I'm quite certain that fundmentalism is not my goal.

But what of the slippery slope? I hope you will not sucumb to this thing that has taken over your mind :huh:


It certainly would be a shame.

Indeed it would.

It is partly emotional but there seems to be something more...

Of course, but is there really? Emotions can deceive. You know this. Come on blackwater, think!


What is fideism?

Google is your friend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism)

[Donkeykong]

See for yourself. (http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444)

Oh that.Well the great christian intellectual Rush Limbaugh said it was no worse than a fraternity initiation

[Hedshaker]

Actually, Hedshaker, I am pretty much with you on the dislike for immovable, set in stone, beliefs. The only things I consider immovable and set in stone are that I exist and that I have experiences. Everything else is at least conceivably questionable.

I agree. Anything that is conceivably questionable should be subject to healthy scepticism.

[lpetrich]

See here (http://constantinbrunner.info/sbise/1/200503150938.htm#p12) for a comparison favoring Christ over Buddha:

The figure of Buddha does not exhibit one of those powerful traits which fill to overflowing the account of the wondrous life of Christ the man.
I read the rest of it, and he seems to be saying that Jesus Christ had a very lively sort of personality, while the Buddha had a very rigid sort of personality.

Bertrand Russell, in his Why I Am Not A Christian (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell0.htm), stated why he thought that Jesus Christ wasn't the greatest person who ever lived, and why he thought that Socrates and the Buddha had been better. He notes a lot of unwisdom in what JC had said:

That he'll be making his second coming very soon
That he believed in eternal damnation
That he claimed that there was an absolutely unforgivable sin: speaking against the Holy Spirit
That he foamed at the mouth at those who would not listen to him
That he sent some demons into certain pigs
That he cursed a fig tree that did not have figs when he wanted to eat

[trendkill]

Eastern Orthodoxy for their near Universalist viewsHuh? I've read a bit about Eastern Orthodoxy, and I've never seen anything resembling universalism. As I understand it, they claim that God treats everyone the same, and salvation is a matter of human free will, but they still believe in eternal damnation; they just want to let God off the hook for it.

[southernhybrid]

If liberal Xianity works for you blackwater, go for it. I like liberal Xians as they often seem to be among the most tolerant and congenial people I know. I'd probably make a good cherry picking atheist Xian myself if I didn't have so much baggage from my fundy childhood. Despite the objections from many of my Humanist friends, I think I'd be perfectly happy in a UU church. If there was one in my community, I'd try it out.

I don't have to literally believe in order to enjoy a partiuclar sect of religion. A lot of my atheist friends just don't seem to understand that not much in life is black and white. There's a nice middle ground where many people find comfort and peace. I'm comfortable right where I am, but I fully understand your need for something different. Atheists that actually believe religion will end one day are as delusional as fundies imo. If it all makes sense to you or meets your needs, who cares what anyone else thinks! It's your life. If being a Xian helps you be a better, more satisfied person, that's all that matters.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Thanks SoHy,
I guess I could be called a liberal Christian... Not sure actually. I think that all religions have the truth but that Jesus is somehow special. I know I can't prove it and that I have no answer to some of the objections raised in this thread, but it's where I'm at nonetheless.

[angela2]

I read the rest of it, and he seems to be saying that Jesus Christ had a very lively sort of personality, while the Buddha had a very rigid sort of personality.

Bertrand Russell, in his Why I Am Not A Christian (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell0.htm), stated why he thought that Jesus Christ wasn't the greatest person who ever lived, and why he thought that Socrates and the Buddha had been better. He notes a lot of unwisdom in what JC had said:

That he'll be making his second coming very soon
That he believed in eternal damnation
That he claimed that there was an absolutely unforgivable sin: speaking against the Holy Spirit
That he foamed at the mouth at those who would not listen to him
That he sent some demons into certain pigs
That he cursed a fig tree that did not have figs when he wanted to eat
That's a joke, right? Gotta be a joke. First good laugh I've had today.

[seebs]

Huh? I've read a bit about Eastern Orthodoxy, and I've never seen anything resembling universalism. As I understand it, they claim that God treats everyone the same, and salvation is a matter of human free will, but they still believe in eternal damnation; they just want to let God off the hook for it.

What they have is nothing like the "God decides people are bad and burns them in retaliation" thing, though.

[dug_down_deep]

Buddhists' telos is different from Christians'. The former seek nirvana, a great nothingness. For some Christians that describes hell.
Some christians believe the buddhist goal is hell.
Believing the buddhist goal is hell is a crock of shit.
Therefore, some christians are full of shit.

Your differentiation is false, and is an attack that owes more to the tradition of politics than of spirituality.

Buddhists think creation is something to be escaped. They think of it as hindering them from their final goal. Christians believe God created the world, speaks to us through it, and look forward to creation's recreation along with their own.
Buddhists believe in reincarnation, and want to get off the merry-go-round of suffering. Christians believe in the "second coming" of their favorite idol and want to be alive forever. Both belief systems are unjustified by evidence. Statistically founded generalization: "Your" favorite fantasy is the one your parents gave you, not the one god revealed to you.

Rather large differences such as these make a preference easy.
If you have a strong bias, you will selectively distort the truth to confirm your bias. This is known as "confirmation bias".

[dug_down_deep]

Thanks SoHy,
I guess I could be called a liberal Christian... Not sure actually. I think that all religions have the truth but that Jesus is somehow special. I know I can't prove it and that I have no answer to some of the objections raised in this thread, but it's where I'm at nonetheless.
Do us all a favor and VOTE. Your 'brethren' are putting fools and tyrants into office on a regular basis, in a misguided attempt to save morality.

[Nice Squirrel]

I saw a claim this morning of a new Bible would have any athiest shuddering in their tracks in 30 seconds. If I didn't have to money buy it (Can tell they really want reconversions :p ). I would order one just to see athiests shuddering in their tracks. :rolleyes:

[Steve Schlicht]

Thanks SoHy,
I guess I could be called a liberal Christian... Not sure actually. I think that all religions have the truth but that Jesus is somehow special. I know I can't prove it and that I have no answer to some of the objections raised in this thread, but it's where I'm at nonetheless.

My understanding of Jesus' actual teachings would be to follow the way of human awareness and action...and not just stare at the finger pointing the way.

Maybe I'm thinking of Siddartha or Easwaran or Arjuna or Carmen, though.

In any event, we are the music makers.

Do it.

Steve

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Do us all a favor and VOTE. Your 'brethren' are putting fools and tyrants into office on a regular basis, in a misguided attempt to save morality.
Oh I plan on doing my jod this November and in the presedential and I wont be voting republican.

[xaxxat]

That's a joke, right? Gotta be a joke. First good laugh I've had today.


Yeah, Jeebus is always good for a laugh. Whatta maroon...

:wave:

[No Robots]

See here (http://constantinbrunner.info/sbise/1/200503150938.htm#p12) for a comparison favoring Christ over Buddha.


I read the rest of it, and he seems to be saying that Jesus Christ had a very lively sort of personality, while the Buddha had a very rigid sort of personality.

Bertrand Russell, in his Why I Am Not A Christian (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell0.htm), stated why he thought that Jesus Christ wasn't the greatest person who ever lived, and why he thought that Socrates and the Buddha had been better. He notes a lot of unwisdom in what JC had said

Thanks for looking in to this. To paraphrase Brunner:

In the end we are left with Christ against Russell; this tiny trickle of water thinks it can extinguish the blaze which encompasses the world!

[Harumi]

The only reason you think Jesus is super special is because you were raised with him. Jesus is great? *giggles*

I was raised Buddhist, and because of this, I much prefer Buddhism, and find Jesus to be little more than a lying, hypocritical, uncaring man (no filial piety, that one). If I had to pick, the preferences would be easy for me to define. I would never consider Christianity.

See, isn't confirmation bias a wonderful thing?

[No Robots]

The only reason you think Jesus is super special is because you were raised with him. Jesus is great? *giggles*

I was raised Buddhist, and because of this, I much prefer Buddhism, and find Jesus to be little more than a lying, hypocritical, uncaring man (no filial piety, that one). If I had to pick, the preferences would be easy for me to define. I would never consider Christianity.

See, isn't confirmation bias a wonderful thing?

I was raised a mythicist. No confirmation bias here.

[Magus55]

Given two of the people who helped him, me and seebs (I don't know much about Magus), I wouldn't worry.
Short answer: I've been here awhile - first as an obnoxious YEC literalist fundy, now as a more liberal theistic evolutionist. I'm also Jewish but I get a lot of heat over that here, so I probably shouldn't get in to that. Nice to meet you! :Cheeky:

[Harumi]

I was raised a mythicist. No confirmation bias here.

Oh, I was directing my post at the OP, not you.

[Alethias]

That's a joke, right? Gotta be a joke. First good laugh I've had today.I suggest reading the book and you'll know first hand if it was a joke. :)

[Jedi Mind Trick]

The only reason you think Jesus is super special is because you were raised with him. Jesus is great? *giggles*

I was raised Buddhist, and because of this, I much prefer Buddhism, and find Jesus to be little more than a lying, hypocritical, uncaring man (no filial piety, that one). If I had to pick, the preferences would be easy for me to define. I would never consider Christianity.

See, isn't confirmation bias a wonderful thing?
Maybe so, but just what if... what if it is a coincidence?
BTW,
I greatly admire Buddha.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Thanks for looking in to this. To paraphrase Brunner:

In the end we are left with Christ against Russell; this tiny trickle of water thinks it can extinguish the blaze which encompasses the world!


Wishful thinking? Don't get me wrong, everyone is entitled to her/his opinion, but, this, well...
Mental masturbation is not the way, I mean, to assess anything it's better to have your eyes open rather than closing them hard and wishing you were back in Kansas.

Remember Zeus was once a blaze and sorcery against what we know now are medical ailments was once the "in" thing. Popularity doesn't make true, and reality is not subject to opinion.

The world is not flat, no matter if the world can genuflect to the notion.


I wonder if you find this I say reasonable?
Lógos Sokratikós
Even if atheism was the fad, it certainly wouldn't make it any truer

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Even though I know it won’t be popular here, I just thought I would let you all know I think I’m still a Christian, well sort of. However, with some very heretical leanings, so I’m sure the Rev. Muse will not consider me as one of the flock. I don’t believe in the eternal hell, I don’t believe in inerrancey, I believe the bible is to be read spiritually not literally. I don’t believe in exclusiveism… for instance I believe that the Buddha was enlightened from god and that all religions are paths to the truth. However I do believe in Jesus and that he has a very special relationship with god and a special purpose for mankind, but may not actually be god, at least not in the traditional Christian sense. I DO affirm the fact of evolution, so I am a theistic evolutionist. I don’t have it all figured out and I know I can’t prove anything and I don’t mind that… all I know is that my heart cries out to Jesus, as tacky as that sounds.

I credit seebs, Magus55, angela2 and Classical and also others for showing me that I don't have to be a fundy to believe in something more.


ANOTHER confession ... what a blessed period on IIDB!

While I'm sure some are reading this post and thinking that "I" (the "theological predator") am rushing here to "claim another victory" and to "exult" in this news as if to say "Ha Ha" to those who do not hold to an theist position, but before you get spun up in a tizzy, let me comfort you by saying this is NOT the case.

1. Believing the Spirit alone to be the Lord of the conscience, I am glad to see Blackwater standing upon and communicating his beliefs, beliefs that (though they may be different than mine and from those of atheist, etc., on this board) are HIS beliefs.

2. Believing that every person should take stock what what he/she believes (or doesn't believe, or even has scruples about), I'm glad to see BW not only assessing his own beliefs, but also willing to communicate them (this is good both for himself, and for others.)

3. Believing that it's good for any board (Christian, IIDB, or otherwise) for individuals to be able to express their beliefs, and exchange thoughts, and to do so openly, I'm glad that BW had done so on this board so as to break a greater gap in the wall of pressure previously put upon people on this board in perhaps being the "first" to come forward and to express any kind of change or transition. I think it good for the infidels site that this has taken place. Ultimately, on one level, it doesn't do harm or damage to the site or position taken by those who oppose theism, for they still hold their views and everyone recognizes that. This actually upholds a freedom and a truth that we should all uphold (regardless of the theological position we hold) and that is that people should be free to change and to communicate that change without pressure or harassment.

4. Believing there may be others who have possessed doubts, or been tempted to communicate a different view themselves, etc., but have not done so because as BW alluded to it might "not be popular here", I'm glad that not only Classical, but now BW as well have exercised courage, spoken out, and eased the way for others to do the same. (Why lurk, and why hide, when there's freedom in confession, as well as the advantage of arguing and debating from the position where you really stand... Not only that, but it may more expeditiously help you discover an even newer position if that indeed is going to happen.

5. As far as BW's beliefs, I think J.D. put it both well and most graciously when he said "Well, I would just consider you on the path to sanctification and that your doctrine will improve as you spiritually mature." I like J.D., recognize that all one's beliefs do not have to be in order to be saved... one must simple repent and believe, trusting in Christ and not themselves for salvation. This certainly raises some questions when it comes to BW's beliefs... My questions right now would be what does BW think about himself: Is he a sinner? Does God hold man accountable for violations of his law? It appears to me, based on my knowledge of the Scripture that BW is more of a pluralist than a Christian. Any true Christian in recognizing the problem he has with sin, also comes to understand this sin can only be dealt with satisfactorily through one means, the sacrificial atoning death and resurrection of Christ. While I admit there's much that could be discussed with BW ... and discernment whether some of these things are simply doctrinal differences or whether they are more substantive differences critically related to salvation, I would be willing to discuss these matters and help him clarify them.

BW, I look forward to seeing you continue to work with your beliefs and particularly the grounds for them.


BTW, have you ever considered the Scripture can all be read on a spiritual level, while some parts may be literal and others not? I encourage you to read about how to distinguish between the different genre's (types of books/text/etc.) in Scripture. This will help you more fully flush out this aspect of your faith.

Blessings,
Tim

[No Robots]

Popularity doesn't make true, and reality is not subject to opinion.


The point is that it is ridiculous to dismiss Christ as a monumental figure over petty moral qualms. It is like dismissing Rembrandt as an artist because he painted naked ladies. Christ was a prophet and spoke as a prophet. One suspects that Bertie Russell never really came to grips with this fact.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

The point is that it is ridiculous to dismiss Christ as a monumental figure over petty moral qualms.
Indeed, they do seem petty. I never could quite understand all of the grief given to Jesus over such issues.

My problem was with the hell doctrine and a few other issues not so much the man Jesus. I've always seen him as a defender of the weak... that is something I admire.

[Steve Schlicht]

ANOTHER confession ... what a blessed period on IIDB!

How'd you like mine (http://iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=184366), Tim?

;)

It is further enlightening to gauge how much interest can be determined by the views/responses which are generated over a relatively short period of time by the respective posts.

Conflict feeds the ego does it not?

:wave:

Steve

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Yes,
I am cherry picking, and I don't mind that.

[sharon45]

I think that all religions have the truth but that Jesus is somehow special. I know I can't prove it and that I have no answer to some of the objections raised in this thread, but it's where I'm at nonetheless.Give a lot of thought as to why you find something special about jesus.

[sharon45]

In the end we are left with Christ against Russell; this tiny trickle of water thinks it can extinguish the blaze which encompasses the world!Christianity is not a blaze which encompasses the world because what two billion people believe is not christianity. There really is no such thing as christianity. Jesus didn't even want to attempt to follow his own teachings well enough and he should have known that's because it's impossible.

[sharon45]

While I'm sure some are reading this post and thinking that "I" (the "theological predator") am rushing here to "claim another victory" and to "exult" in this news as if to say "Ha Ha" to those who do not hold to an theist position, but before you get spun up in a tizzy, let me comfort you by saying this is NOT the case.
1. You are far from a "theological predator".

2. It has nothing to do with you to be able to "claim another victory" since it is merely one rethinking a fatally flawed belief system.

3. There really is no "us against them", because a theist is already about the same as an atheist except they are a little less patience.4. Believing there may be others who have possessed doubts, or been tempted to communicate a different view themselves, etc., but have not done so because as BW alluded to it might "not be popular here", I'm glad that not only Classical, but now BW as well have exercised courage, spoken out, and eased the way for others to do the same. (Why lurk, and why hide, when there's freedom in confession, as well as the advantage of arguing and debating from the position where you really stand... Not only that, but it may more expeditiously help you discover an even newer position if that indeed is going to happen.I really don't think many on this board would advocate members to lurk or hide. The exact point is freedom and to be able to question constantly what's before us.

[sharon45]

Yes,
I am cherry picking, and I don't mind that.Fine, at least you realize this.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

The point is that it is ridiculous to dismiss Christ as a monumental figure over petty moral qualms. It is like dismissing Rembrandt as an artist because he painted naked ladies. Christ was a prophet and spoke as a prophet. One suspects that Bertie Russell never really came to grips with this fact.

Maybe neither do I ... I don't get your point "Christ was a prophet and spoke as a prophet". You call him a prophet. So? I can tell you I'm a firefighter, and that wouldn't change if I spoke true or not. He spoke like a prophet. I can too, so?

Bertie and I must be missing something. Care to explain? Maybe I'll find your explanation reasonable.

[No Robots]

Christianity is not a blaze which encompasses the world because what two billion people believe is not christianity. There really is no such thing as christianity. Jesus didn't even want to attempt to follow his own teachings well enough and he should have known that's because it's impossible.

It is not Christianity that is the world-encompassing blaze, but Christ.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

ANOTHER confession ... what a blessed period on IIDB!

While I'm sure some are reading this post and thinking that "I" (the "theological predator") am rushing here to "claim another victory" and to "exult" in this news as if to say "Ha Ha" to those who do not hold to an theist position, but before you get spun up in a tizzy, let me comfort you by saying this is NOT the case.

1. Believing the Spirit alone to be the Lord of the conscience, I am glad to see Blackwater standing upon and communicating his beliefs, beliefs that (though they may be different than mine and from those of atheist, etc., on this board) are HIS beliefs.

2. Believing that every person should take stock what what he/she believes (or doesn't believe, or even has scruples about), I'm glad to see BW not only assessing his own beliefs, but also willing to communicate them (this is good both for himself, and for others.)

3. Believing that it's good for any board (Christian, IIDB, or otherwise) for individuals to be able to express their beliefs, and exchange thoughts, and to do so openly, I'm glad that BW had done so on this board so as to break a greater gap in the wall of pressure previously put upon people on this board in perhaps being the "first" to come forward and to express any kind of change or transition. I think it good for the infidels site that this has taken place. Ultimately, on one level, it doesn't do harm or damage to the site or position taken by those who oppose theism, for they still hold their views and everyone recognizes that. This actually upholds a freedom and a truth that we should all uphold (regardless of the theological position we hold) and that is that people should be free to change and to communicate that change without pressure or harassment.

4. Believing there may be others who have possessed doubts, or been tempted to communicate a different view themselves, etc., but have not done so because as BW alluded to it might "not be popular here", I'm glad that not only Classical, but now BW as well have exercised courage, spoken out, and eased the way for others to do the same. (Why lurk, and why hide, when there's freedom in confession, as well as the advantage of arguing and debating from the position where you really stand... Not only that, but it may more expeditiously help you discover an even newer position if that indeed is going to happen.

5. As far as BW's beliefs, I think J.D. put it both well and most graciously when he said "Well, I would just consider you on the path to sanctification and that your doctrine will improve as you spiritually mature." I like J.D., recognize that all one's beliefs do not have to be in order to be saved... one must simple repent and believe, trusting in Christ and not themselves for salvation. This certainly raises some questions when it comes to BW's beliefs... My questions right now would be what does BW think about himself: Is he a sinner? Does God hold man accountable for violations of his law? It appears to me, based on my knowledge of the Scripture that BW is more of a pluralist than a Christian. Any true Christian in recognizing the problem he has with sin, also comes to understand this sin can only be dealt with satisfactorily through one means, the sacrificial atoning death and resurrection of Christ. While I admit there's much that could be discussed with BW ... and discernment whether some of these things are simply doctrinal differences or whether they are more substantive differences critically related to salvation, I would be willing to discuss these matters and help him clarify them.

BW, I look forward to seeing you continue to work with your beliefs and particularly the grounds for them.


BTW, have you ever considered the Scripture can all be read on a spiritual level, while some parts may be literal and others not? I encourage you to read about how to distinguish between the different genre's (types of books/text/etc.) in Scripture. This will help you more fully flush out this aspect of your faith.

Blessings,
Tim

I'm glad you folks got over your "barbecuing people we don't agree with" phase. I hope this is a sign of more progress for you.

Wait, what's that? Oops! You're still advocating unsupported self-contradictory purportedly non-fiction writings from people who thought the world was flat?

Well, progress comes slow, but it does. :wave:

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

...I think I’m still a Christian, ...However, with some very heretical leanings, .... I don’t believe in the eternal hell, I don’t believe in inerrancy, ...I don’t believe in exclusiveism… for instance I believe that the Buddha was enlightened from god and that all religions are paths to the truth. However I do believe in Jesus ...., but may not actually be god, all I know is that my heart cries out to Jesus ..."


BW,

In what way and for what purpose does your "heart cry out" to Jesus?

Consider this:
...Here is Jesus, who says salvation is exclusively found in him (Jn 14:6, etc.) and you say he is not.
...Here is Jesus, who says he is the Son of God (by His word, through his acts, through his fulfillment of the Scriptures, etc.) and you say he is not.
...Here is Jesus who says that he is the shepherd and that all others are false (Jn 10), and you say he is not.
... Here is Jesus, who says there is a hell (Mt 5:22) and you say there is not.
... Here is Jesus, who says that Scripture is inerrant (Mt 5:18; Jn 10:35) and you say it is not.
... Given that Jesus says salvation belongs to those who will repent and believe, what are you crying out to Jesus for?

Can another human save you? Should you expect a messiah to save you when you put your faith in others, and receive not his own word? Have you created a Jesus other than the one presented in the Scripture, and if so, can it/he save you?

I recognize what you've said, when you stated
I don’t have it all figured out and I know I can’t prove anything ..., but when judgment day comes, while it is not perfection in all our theology that will save us, having faith in the Christ of the Bible will. Worship and putting faith in any other will be considered idolatry and blasphemy. This is something that you should care about and seriously consider even now. Be careful not to follow the spirit of the age which in denying the Scripture and the Messiah, SUBSTITUTES a pluralistic solution in his place. Note... Christians are not the ones who originated the claim, it was Jesus Christ Himself who said, 'I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Following any other way is to call Jesus a liar, and to try to bribe the Judge of the Universe with what he has already said is not acceptable. If you would not do this in a human court of law, how much less should you think that you should do it in God's court?

Put your faith in Jesus Christ, who alone can and does save. None of the other religions in the world can save, only he can. Mt 9:6 "The Son of God has power on earth to forgive sins.)

[JCS]

BTW, have you ever considered the Scripture can all be read on a spiritual level,.Could you please define spiritual level.

while some parts may be literal and others not?Which are which and how can you be sure?

I encourage you to read about how to distinguish between the different genre's (types of books/text/etc.) in Scripture. This will help you more fully flush out this aspect of your faith.Are you advocating that in order to understand or differentiate the inspired words of God, you must use the opinions of mere men to understand them? If so, what makes their opinions worthy of such a responsibilty or trust?

[No Robots]

I don't get your point "Christ was a prophet and spoke as a prophet". You call him a prophet. So? I can tell you I'm a firefighter, and that wouldn't change if I spoke true or not. He spoke like a prophet. I can too, so?

Bertie and I must be missing something. Care to explain? Maybe I'll find your explanation reasonable.

Check Heschel's The Prophets (http://www.amazon.com/Prophets-Perennial-Classics-Abraham-Heschel/dp/0060936991/). Chapter 1, "What Manner of Man Is the Prophet?" lists the following qualities:


Sensitivity to evil
The importance of trivialities
Luminous and explosive
The highest good
One octave too high
An iconoclast
Austerity and compassion
Sweeping allegations
Few are guilty, all are responsible
The blast from heaven
The coalition of callousness and authority
Loneliness and misery
The people's tolerance
An assayer, messenger, witness

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

I'm glad you folks got over your "barbecuing people we don't agree with" phase. I hope this is a sign of more progress for you.


The more interesting response will be that of UNBELIEVERS?

If Classicals' thread is any example, I imagine it won't be long (... that while everyone is okay with BW at the moment)... before his intellect gets assaulted. (especially if he is pushed, and communicates not only why he believes what he does, but why he doesn't believe the view atheists take.... that's why the fireworks begin.)

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

I'm glad you folks got over your "barbecuing people we don't agree with" phase. I hope this is a sign of more progress for you.


The more interesting response will be that of UNBELIEVERS?

If Classicals' thread is any example, I imagine it won't be long (... that while everyone is okay with BW at the moment)... it won't be long before his intellect gets assaulted. (especially if he is pushed, and communicates not only why he believes what he does, but why he doesn't believe the view atheists take.... that's why the fireworks begin.)

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

I'm glad you folks got over your "barbecuing people we don't agree with" phase. I hope this is a sign of more progress for you.

Wait, what's that? Oops! You're still advocating unsupported self-contradictory purportedly non-fiction writings from people who thought the world was flat?

Well, progress comes slow, but it does. :wave:

The more interesting response will be that of UNBELIEVERS?

If Classicals' thread is any example, I imagine it won't be long (... that while everyone is okay with BW at the moment)... it won't be long before his intellect gets assaulted. (especially if he is pushed, and communicates not only why he believes what he does, but why he doesn't believe the view atheists take.... that's when the barbequing and fireworks begin.);)

[JCS]

Worship and putting faith in any other will be considered idolatry and blasphemy.I'm confused. You said in a previous post-Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse
I encourage you to read about how to distinguish between the different genre's (types of books/text/etc.) in Scripture. This will help you more fully flush out this aspect of your faith.Would that not be putting your faith in someone elses opinions of what scripture means or intends?


Put your faith in Jesus Christ, who alone can and does save. None of the other religions in the world can save, only he can. Mt 9:6 "The Son of God has power on earth to forgive sins.)Do you have anything that backs up this assertion? Also could you explain why being saved is a desirable goal?

[aa5874]

Even though I know it won’t be popular here, I just thought I would let you all know I think I’m still a Christian, well sort of. However, with some very heretical leanings, so I’m sure the Rev. Muse will not consider me as one of the flock. I don’t believe in the eternal hell, I don’t believe in inerrancey, I believe the bible is to be read spiritually not literally. I don’t believe in exclusiveism… for instance I believe that the Buddha was enlightened from god and that all religions are paths to the truth. However I do believe in Jesus and that he has a very special relationship with god and a special purpose for mankind, but may not actually be god, at least not in the traditional Christian sense. I DO affirm the fact of evolution, so I am a theistic evolutionist. I don’t have it all figured out and I know I can’t prove anything and I don’t mind that… all I know is that my heart cries out to Jesus, as tacky as that sounds.

The words of confusion. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are just making up things.

'.......my heart cries out for Jesus, as tacky as that sounds.' Have you established anything about Jesus? You are yearning for the truth and apparently you are not prepared for the truth.

Who is Jesus, what has He done for anyone? Is this Jesus you refer to , the same person no-one can account for, the one who claims being blind, deaf and dumb is caused by evil spirits.

I credit seebs, Magus55, angela2 and Classical and also others for showing me that I don't have to be a fundy to believe in something more.

You credit people who leave you confused. Are you now claiming to be a theistic atheist, or all you are saying is that God created evolution?.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

... Given that Jesus says salvation belongs to those who will repent and believe, what are you crying out to Jesus for?
I have had a bad year and I feel very weak and unsure of myself. I see him as a defender of the weak …I am writing this in tears… I don’t want for there to be nothing. I suffer from depression.

[angela2]

BW,

In what way and for what purpose does your "heart cry out" to Jesus?

Consider this:
...Here is Jesus, who says salvation is exclusively found in him (Jn 14:6, etc.) and you say he is not.
...Here is Jesus, who says he is the Son of God (by His word, through his acts, through his fulfillment of the Scriptures, etc.) and you say he is not.
...Here is Jesus who says that he is the shepherd and that all others are false (Jn 10), and you say he is not.
... Here is Jesus, who says there is a hell (Mt 5:22) and you say there is not.
... Here is Jesus, who says that Scripture is inerrant (Mt 5:18; Jn 10:35) and you say it is not.
... Given that Jesus says salvation belongs to those who will repent and believe, what are you crying out to Jesus for?

Can another human save you? Should you expect a messiah to save you when you put your faith in others, and receive not his own word? Have you created a Jesus other than the one presented in the Scripture, and if so, can it/he save you?

I recognize what you've said, when you stated
, but when judgment day comes, while it is not perfection in all our theology that will save us, having faith in the Christ of the Bible will. Worship and putting faith in any other will be considered idolatry and blasphemy. This is something that you should care about and seriously consider even now. Be careful not to follow the spirit of the age which in denying the Scripture and the Messiah, SUBSTITUTES a pluralistic solution in his place. Note... Christians are not the ones who originated the claim, it was Jesus Christ Himself who said, 'I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Following any other way is to call Jesus a liar, and to try to bribe the Judge of the Universe with what he has already said is not acceptable. If you would not do this in a human court of law, how much less should you think that you should do it in God's court?

Put your faith in Jesus Christ, who alone can and does save. None of the other religions in the world can save, only he can. Mt 9:6 "The Son of God has power on earth to forgive sins.)
Are you working to get a millstone inscribed with your name? Your posts do more damage than any I've seen in a long time, atheists included.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Could you please define spiritual level.

Which are which and how can you be sure?

Are you advocating that in order to understand or differentiate the inspired words of God, you must use the opinions of mere men to understand them? If so, what makes their opinions worthy of such a responsibilty or trust?

1. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and recognizing Scripture to be what it is, not just a book on history, or morality, etc., but the revelation of God for purposes pertaining to salvation.

2. Wisdom (that comes ultimately from above) guides one for example to not exegete poetry in the same way one would exegete historical narative, etc.

3. Man's own reason, along with the opinions of men, etc., can all be used by God in enabling man to come to an understanding of the truth.

[lpetrich]

Blackwater, if you wish to consider Jesus Christ something special, then I have no objection to that. But please don't be afraid to have some critical sense about him, and please don't start waving around fallacious theological arguments. It if it represents something like an esthetic judgment or being fond of someone, then it's not something that needs to be "proved", and I suggest not even bothering to try.

(Bertrand Russell on Jesus Christ's unwisdom, including cursing a certain fig tree...)
That's a joke, right? Gotta be a joke. First good laugh I've had today.
How was it a joke, angela2?

In the end we are left with Christ against Russell; this tiny trickle of water thinks it can extinguish the blaze which encompasses the world!
That's not really an argument -- it doesn't demonstrate why BR was supposed to be such an intellectual midget.

The only reason you think Jesus is super special is because you were raised with him. Jesus is great? *giggles*
Be careful, Harumi. Some Xians seem to enjoy bragging about what converts they were, how they used to hate Jesus Christ and stuff like that.

I was raised Buddhist, and because of this, I much prefer Buddhism, and find Jesus to be little more than a lying, hypocritical, uncaring man (no filial piety, that one). If I had to pick, the preferences would be easy for me to define. I would never consider Christianity.
I agree, and I once even started a thread on What Sins Did Jesus Christ Commit? (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=182351) This is someone who forbade name-calling, then turned around and called certain people "fools" and hellbound "snakes and a brood of vipers" and "blind guides" and "whitewashed tombs" and the like. Calling someone a hellbound snake isn't exactly loving and forgiving and compassionate.

And I certainly agree that he was disrespectful to parents; someone with superior compassion would NOT have said to worried parents "Didn't you know that I had to be in my Father's house?" (Luke 2:24-51) And he said to someone who wanted to bury his dead father "Let the dead bury their dead" (Matt 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62), which seems like a bad joke.

The point is that it is ridiculous to dismiss Christ as a monumental figure over petty moral qualms. It is like dismissing Rembrandt as an artist because he painted naked ladies.
How are Bertrand Russell's comments "petty moral qualms"?

Christ was a prophet and spoke as a prophet. One suspects that Bertie Russell never really came to grips with this fact.
How was Jesus Christ supposed to be a prophet?

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Are you working to get a millstone inscribed with your name? Your posts do more damage than any I've seen in a long time, atheists included.

Perhaps, ...
but I'm willing to incur accusations even as this, rather than to have one believe he is saved when he may not be and thereby not enter the kingdom of heaven. (While it may be your judgment that my questioning may hinder his progress (and you may deem another path more appropriate), I trust that as Christ's disciples evangelize the lost and edify the saints, that all things will work toward good for those who belong to him.)

[JCS]

1. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and recognizing Scripture to be what it is, not just a book on history, or morality, etc., but the revelation of God for purposes pertaining to salvation.Excuse my denseness, but how does this work? When discussing with assorted "Christians" what scripture means, opinion varies from minor quibbles to the extreme.

2. Wisdom (that comes ultimately from above) guides one for example to not exegete poetry in the same way one would exegete historical narative, etc. Literalists would claim that interpretation is nothing more than blasphemy. Since the Bible has no compendium would that not make inerrancy the stronger position?


3. Man's own reason, along with the opinions of men, etc., can all be used by God in enabling man to come to an understanding of the truth.But in truth are you not selecting which men have an understanding of truth? If you invoke the supernatural to explain your choice, then how can you be sure that the supernatural influnence is not a misdirection perpetrated by an undesirable entity?

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

I'm confused. Would that not be putting your faith in someone elses opinions of what scripture means or intends?

You seem to think one must either (A) Get things directly from God, or (B) Get things from other men apart from God.... without recognizing that (C) God can lead men to truth ... even through the aid of others in helping one come to the knowledge of the truth."


Do you have anything that backs up this assertion? Also could you explain why being saved is a desirable goal

My own experience/testimony. The Scripture. The example of Christ, who when others doubted him showed he could heal the body - which they thought would be the more difficult to do/prove. The cross. The testimony of other believers. etc.

[No Robots]

I once even started a thread on What Sins Did Jesus Christ Commit? (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=182351) This is someone who forbade name-calling, then turned around and called certain people "fools" and hellbound "snakes and a brood of vipers" and "blind guides" and "whitewashed tombs" and the like. Calling someone a hellbound snake isn't exactly loving and forgiving and compassionate.

And I certainly agree that he was disrespectful to parents; someone with superior compassion would NOT have said to worried parents "Didn't you know that I had to be in my Father's house?" (Luke 2:24-51) And he said to someone who wanted to bury his dead father "Let the dead bury their dead" (Matt 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62), which seems like a bad joke.

And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Excuse my denseness, but how does this work? When discussing with assorted "Christians" what scripture means, opinion varies from minor quibbles to the extreme.

Literalists would claim that interpretation is nothing more than blasphemy. Since the Bible has no compendium would that not make inerrancy the stronger position?


But in truth are you not selecting which men have an understanding of truth? If you invoke the supernatural to explain your choice, then how can you be sure that the supernatural influnence is not a misdirection perpetrated by an undesirable entity?

Questions concerning inerrancy and interpretation are routinely debated on other threads.

[lpetrich]

And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?
And what am I supposed to be guilty of?

[No Robots]

How was Jesus Christ supposed to be a prophet?
He fits the profile (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3872845#post3872845).

[JCS]

You seem to think one must either (A) Get things directly from God, or (B) Get things from other men apart from God.... without recognizing that (C) God can lead men to truth ... even through the aid of others in helping one come to the knowledge of the truth."But if you can't verify that God really lead them to truth then you are just accepting that their claims are true are you not? What is truth without some form of verification? Without input directly from God all you have is the opinions of others which come with all of mans shortcomings. Can another human save you? Should you expect a messiah to save you when you put your faith in others, and receive not his own word? Have you created a Jesus other than the one presented in the Scripture, and if so, can it/he save you?=Timothy G. Muse

My own experience/testimony. The Scripture. The example of Christ, who when others doubted him showed he could heal the body - which they thought would be the more difficult to do/prove. The cross. The testimony of other believers. etc.Anecdotal and subject to fallibility.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

I have had a bad year and I feel very weak and unsure of myself. I see him as a defender of the weak …I am writing this in tears… I don’t want for there to be nothing. I suffer from depression.

BW,

God IS, and he does look with special care upon those who are weak, and especially those who cry out to him in their weakness. Commit yourself to him and he will care for you...

In what way have you had a bad year, and in what way do you feel unsure of yourself? (If you prefer to PM these answers to me, I understand).

Hang in there. God tells us he will not put on us more than we can handle. At the same time, he often puts things on us that we might turn to, trust in, and depend on him.

Tim

[No Robots]

And what am I supposed to be guilty of?

Oh, I forgot, pure as the driven snow, you are. Your momma done told me so.:rolleyes:

[JCS]

BW,

God IS, and he does look with special care upon those who are weak, and especially those who cry out to him in their weakness. Commit yourself to him and he will care for you...

In what way have you had a bad year, and in what way do you feel unsure of yourself? (If you prefer to PM these answer to me, I understand).

Hang in there. God tells us he will not put on us more than we can handle. At the same time, he often puts things on us that we might turn to, trust in, and depend on him.

Tim

Oh I get it, the jokes on me! That is some funny stuff, and I was just gullable enough to jump in. I'm far more dense than I originally thought.:banghead:

[blkgayatheist]

BW,

God IS, and he does look with special care upon those who are weak, and especially those who cry out to him in their weakness. Commit yourself to him and he will care for you...

In what way have you had a bad year, and in what way do you feel unsure of yourself? (If you prefer to PM these answers to me, I understand).

Hang in there. God tells us he will not put on us more than we can handle. At the same time, he often puts things on us that we might turn to, trust in, and depend on him.

Tim

Herein lies my problem with this whole thing and why I cant rush to applaud this pronouncement. The guy says he had a bad year and suffers from depression, and his response is to believe that some guy who questionably lived 2000 years ago and is also supposed to be some mythical entity called "the Christ" is the answer to problems.

Jesus is a defender of the weak, yet I certainly dont see any decrease in the amount of weak, depressed, oppressed ,suffering people since Jesus made his grand appearance. (That always bugged me about the Jesus story...so what you put your hands on one or two blind people and heal them...why not do away with blindness forever...that would be a worthy miracle for a son of God and at least we'd still have evidence that it happened). Just today I read yet another story about a woman who murdered her 7 year old son...where was Jesus to defend him???

I had this problem when I belonged to a baptist Church, and a guy came in to prayer meeting off the street who was clearly in the middle of a bi-polar or psychotic episode and said that he was oppressed by demons and needed help. The congregation praised god for sending this lost sheep, and had him accept Christ as his "personal savior". That was the beginning of my walk away from religion, because it was clear to me that what the guy really needed was emergency psych treatment.

I dont have a problem with belief, but belief out of desparation and despair does not seem healthy to me.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Herein lies my problem with this whole thing and why I cant rush to applaud this pronouncement. The guy says he had a bad year and suffers from depression, and his response is to believe that some guy who questionably lived 2000 years ago and is also supposed to be some mythical entity called "the Christ" is the answer to problems.

Jesus is a defender of the weak, yet I certainly dont see any decrease in the amount of weak, depressed, oppressed ,suffering people since Jesus made his grand appearance. (That always bugged me about the Jesus story...so what you put your hands on one or two blind people and heal them...why not do away with blindness forever...that would be a worthy miracle for a son of God and at least we'd still have evidence that it happened). Just today I read yet another story about a woman who murdered her 7 year old son...where was Jesus to defend him???

I had this problem when I belonged to a baptist Church, and a guy came in to prayer meeting off the street who was clearly in the middle of a bi-polar or psychotic episode and said that he was oppressed by demons and needed help. The congregation praised god for sending this lost sheep, and had him accept Christ as his "personal savior". That was the beginning of my walk away from religion, because it was clear to me that what the guy really needed was emergency psych treatment.

I dont have a problem with belief, but belief out of desparation and despair does not seem healthy to me.

Who eventually is stronger... the one who is protected from the storms, or the one who is enabled to come through the storms?

Does it ever strike you that the kingdom Christ refers to is of a DIFFERENT nature than this world. Unbelievers often think only in terms of this world (the removal of blindess, the removal of poverty, etc.) when the kingdom scripture refers to goes BEYOND this world. Think of Paul, who said, "I have learned to be CONTENT, WHETHER well fed or hungry, WHETHER living in plenty or in want." Is that not BETTER than just being given food?

[steamer]

God IS, and he does look with special care upon those who are weak, and especially those who cry out to him in their weakness. Commit yourself to him and he will care for you...

Now here is a case of the blind leading the blind. A case in point that goes all the way back to the very first Christian. Timothy G. Muse has no fucking clue if a god exists or not...but look at how he is able to tell you exactly what a god will do. He talks of his beliefs as if he knows them to be facts. The truth though is that these are just his beliefs, without any basis in fact. Thus the meme is passed from mind to mind without the slightest reference to any truth.


Hang in there. God tells us he will not put on us more than we can handle. At the same time, he often puts things on us that we might turn to, trust in, and depend on him.


Again, Tim, I'd just like to point out that god isn't talking to you. You are reading a book or remembering something from a book. Can you admit this Tim? After years of this kind of equivocation can you tell the difference between a god talking and a book-reading?

[steamer]

I have had a bad year and I feel very weak and unsure of myself. I see him as a defender of the weak …I am writing this in tears… I don’t want for there to be nothing. I suffer from depression.

If you have problems that will be solved by Jesus, then you don't have any problems. Sounds to me like you just need to start taking your meds again or have them adjusted. Seriously, if you are not on medication you may need to be. Doctor first...then worry about Jesus.

I had a bipolar wife and have a bipolar child. Medicine is your friend. Step away from the conversion route and see you doctor first.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Now here is a case of the blind leading the blind. A case in point that goes all the way back to the very first Christian. Timothy G. Muse has no fucking clue if a god exists or not...but look at how he is able to tell you exactly what a god will do. He talks of his beliefs as if he knows them to be facts. The truth though is that these are just his beliefs, without any basis in fact. Thus the meme is passed from mind to mind without the slightest reference to any truth.

Your (unsubstantiated) opinion...
I have the basis not only of the Scripture, the example of the cross, but also my personal experience.

Again, Tim, I'd just like to point out that god isn't talking to you. You are reading a book or remembering something from a book. Can you admit this Tim? After years of this kind of equivocation can you tell the difference between a god talking and a book-reading?

I can't remember the last time you were with me ... to know this.
On what basis do you make this claim.... the book of "your" personal experience?

[steamer]

Does it ever strike you that the kingdom Christ refers to is of a DIFFERENT nature than this world.

Of course it is a DIFFERENT nature, it is PRETEND.


Unbelievers often think only in terms of this world (the removal of blindess, the removal of poverty, etc.) when the kingdom scripture refers to goes BEYOND this world.

Into the land of imagination where the cartoon characters live.


Think of Paul, who said, "I have learned to be CONTENT, WHETHER well fed or hungry, WHETHER living in plenty or in want." Is that not BETTER than just being given food?

If he were truly content he would have starved to death. Did Pual starve to death or was he lying?

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

If you have problems that will be solved by Jesus, then you don't have any problems. Sounds to me like you just need to start taking your meds again or have them adjusted. Seriously, if you are not on medication you may need to be. Doctor first...then worry about Jesus.

I had a bipolar wife and have a bipolar child. Medicine is your friend. Step away from the conversion route and see you doctor first.

IOW... medicate to cover/disguise/etc. the problem.

While this is not to suggest that there are not appropriate and necessary places for medicine (for God has even provided them for our good... when properly used and not abused), there are other (and better) solutions to BW's problems.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

If he were truly content he would have starved to death. Did Pual starve to death or was he lying?

Where's my friend when he's needed, for you just don't GEDDIT.

[steamer]

Your (unsubstantiated) opinion...

I say you have no fucking clue if a god exists or not. Since this is the state of all of mankind except for a few supposed prophets...Do you declare yourself a prophet?


I have the basis not only of the Scripture

Which is as far as anyone knows a description of someones imagined god


the example of the cross


Another story from the same book...


but also my personal experience.

Which is where god talks to you? Come on Tim, drag them old experiences out of the closet if you aren't afraid that we will paint them as what they most likely are....Tim's attributing events he doesn't understand to a god he only imagines.



I can't remember the last time you were with me ... to know this.

You are welcome to make the claim that god "talks" to you and that you have some actual knowledge of some god. Until then, I'm afraid we'll have to go based on the facts. The fact is that reading a book about a god isn't the same as god talking to you.

The bible is an old book no matter how many times you call it "god's word". No matter how many times I call my dog an elephant, it remains a dog.


On what basis do you make this claim.... the book of "your" personal experience?

On what basis do I claim that the bible is a book? Because it is a book.

[JCS]

Hang in there. God tells us he will not put on us more than we can handle. At the same time, he often puts things on us that we might turn to, trust in, and depend on him.TimYou aren't joking are you? Okay then, why do people commit suicide? Common sense tells us that if they waited or sought help they could have handled it possibly. But since that wasn't the outcome, did God just let them slip through the cracks. To futher explore the ramifications of what God puts on us, why does he put anything on us or to be more persnickety, what is the purpose of this? http://www.stjude.org/disease-summaries/0,2557,449_2078_6644,00.html:huh:

[steamer]

IOW... medicate to cover/disguise/etc. the problem.

Depression is a medical condition. Jesus isn't going to pop out of your imagination and heal him and your prayers have no more effect than a sugar pill.


While this is not to suggest that there are not appropriate and necessary places for medicine (for God has even provided them for our good... when properly used and not abused), there are other (and better) solutions to BW's problems.

God didn't make medicine, people made medicine out of plants and things they synthesize themsselves. Your pretending that god does something takes a shitload of credit away from people that spend their lives trying to make medicines. By your logic though wouldn't it have been your pretended god that caused the illness to begin with?

[steamer]

Where's my friend when he's needed, for you just don't GEDDIT.

No, I don't BUYIT

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

You aren't joking are you? Okay then, why do people commit suicide? Common sense tells us that if they waited or sought help they could have handled it possibly. But since that wasn't the outcome, did God just let them slip through the cracks. To futher explore the ramifications of what God puts on us, why does he put anything on us or to be more persnickety, what is the purpose of this? http://www.stjude.org/disease-summaries/0,2557,449_2078_6644,00.html:huh:

If 'common sense' tells you this much, then why do you doubt God?

[JCS]

IOW... medicate to cover/disguise/etc. the problem.As opposed to what? An unsubstantiated invisible friend that supposedly encumbered him in the first place? What if the unsubstantiated invisible friend lets him fall through the cracks.http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/index.asp

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

As opposed to what? An unsubstantiated invisible friend that supposedly encumbered him in the first place? What if the unsubstantiated invisible friend lets him fall through the cracks.http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/index.asp

sometimes...when people DEAL with the issues causing their depression, and find solutions to them, they do not need to medicate and continue on that medication.

... In the same way that some people deal with emotial problems by turning to alcohol, or fighting, etc., instead of coming to grips with the problem and finding the correct/better/true solution; so it often is with those who experience spiritual problems who rather than finding God and a biblical solution turn to medication instead.

[Withered]

Hi BlackWater,
My name is Lars,
In regards to being a christian or an atheist, now just does not seem to be the time to be worrying about it. I am married to a woman that was treated for depression, and one of the things that i learned while both of us were involved with her recovery was that people that suffer depression are often unable to think clearly about many, many things.

Let all of this religious stuff go and get to a doctor, or at least turn to someone you trust for help. Especially if you are even kind of thinking of hurting yourself.

Im guessing that IIDB will be here when you get back, and with a clear head, you can decide for yourself if Jesus is the way for you.

By all means get help for the here and now, if there were a god to worry about he surely wouldnt fault you for that.

[steamer]

sometimes, when people DEAL with the issues causing their depression, and find solutions to them, they do not need to medicate and continue on that medication.

People that have been depressed for a long period of time and are considering suicide do not need more fairy tales. They need medication. Work with me here Tim, Doesn't he have to stay alive a little longer and be sane to accept Jesus or can any crazy fuck make an equally valid claim? Why don't we steer him over to the doctor before you sacrifice a chicken or whatever it is Christians do.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

People that have been depressed for a long period of time and are considering suicide do not need more fairy tales. They need medication. Work with me here Tim, Doesn't he have to stay alive a little longer and be sane to accept Jesus or can any crazy fuck make an equally valid claim? Why don't we steer him over to the doctor before you sacrifice a chicken or whatever it is Christians do.

I do not deny that at times (as some professional Christian counselors will affirm) that medicines cannot be useful in helping a person through a crisis situation ...or to assist them for a time while they get help and deal with their problems. However, this is different that immediately looking to medicine as the ultimate cure/solution when depression occurs.

(I present the following, recognizing it not to be depression, but as a comparative example)
Trust me... I've worked with many kids whose parents talked at length about how much their kids needed to be on Rydalin, when come to find out, there problem was not their inability to focus, but their lack of motivation to focus. These same kids, who can come off of Rydalin when their parents understand how to discipline them, otherwise would be dependent on medicine for life, not to mention the low esteem they would have hearing their parents repeatedly talk about the "problems" they have.

[JCS]

If 'common sense' tells you this much, then why do you doubt God?You have it backwards my friend. God doubts me. If he believed in me, he/it would provide me with the evidence to know and understand what he/it is. Since everything I have come to understand contradicts the possiblity of such a being, what other choice do I have, ignore my precieved reality? How long before the guys in white coats show up to fit me for a long sleeve jacket that ties in the back?

Come to think of it even the explanation of such a being are self contradictory. Hell, statements you have made in this thread are contradictory. So it really isn't my doubt that carries any weight, it is the doubt of God(s) that is of any relevance here, since they remain hidden and unwilling to believe or trust in me enough to reveal themselves, I really have nothing to doubt.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

I take meds and I see therapist... However I have had to go awhile on the therapist because my insurance ran out.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

You have it backwards my friend. God doubts me. If he believed in me, he/it would provide me with the evidence to know and understand what he/it is. Since everything I have come to understand contradicts the possiblity of such a being, what other choice do I have, ignore my precieved reality? How long before the guys in white coats show up to fit me for a long sleeve jacket that ties in the back?

Come to think of it even the explanation of such a being are self contradictory. Hell, statements you have made in this thread are contradictory. So it really isn't my doubt that carries any weight, it is the doubt of God(s) that is of any relevance here, since they remain hidden and unwilling to believe or trust in me enough to reveal themselves, I really have nothing to doubt.

Come tell me this again on the day you're going to die.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

I take meds and I see therapist... However I have had to go awhile on the therapist because my insurance ran out.

This points out another advantage of seeking a solution rather than just medicating .... the expense.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

I take meds and I see therapist... However I have had to go awhile on the therapist because my insurance ran out.

BW,
Do you think a closer walk with Christ, a better understanding of his Word, a better prayer life, a group of close Christian friends, and the greater body of Christ could have helped you through these times... better than what they've been?

[JCS]

sometimes...when people DEAL with the issues causing their depression, and find solutions to them, they do not need to medicate and continue on that medication.

... In the same way that some people deal with emotial problems by turning to alcohol, or fighting, etc., instead of coming to grips with the problem and finding the correct/better/true solution; so it often is with those who experience spiritual problems who rather than finding God and a biblical solution turn to medication instead.You are coming to an unsubstantiated conclusion. Not all emotional or physicological problems reqiure medication and not everyone will be equiped to deal with the issues alone and do require professional help to find their way. Unsubstantiated invisible friends can do this how?

[Withered]

sometimes, when people DEAL with the issues causing their depression, and find solutions to them, they do not need to medicate and continue on that medication.

This is exactly the kind of crap i used to say before i learned about depression first hand. "Why cant you just deal with it and not be depressed anymore?"

I look back and am ashamed at how ignorant i was in that regard.
Depression is a medical issue, and even people with cancer get treatment while they pray. Why would a situation like Blackwater's be any different?
If someone has a medical concern, should they just pray it away? Would you suggest scripture, prayer, and any other christian bullshit as the only method of treating a ruptured appendix?

"Just sit back. The appendix is not that crucial anyway. Rather than treat it, why dont we just go over this scripture and i will tell you everyhting i know about spiritual organs, that should make it all better. Besides, if you just suck it up, you can walk off the pain of a ruptured appendix, then you can get back to worshipping the god that gave it to you in the first place..."

Is that what you are advocating Rev. Timothy G. Muse? Or have i misread something?

[JCS]

Come tell me this again on the day you're going to die.Sure, if I can pick the day and time.:rolleyes:

[angela2]

IOW... medicate to cover/disguise/etc. the problem.

While this is not to suggest that there are not appropriate and necessary places for medicine (for God has even provided them for our good... when properly used and not abused), there are other (and better) solutions to BW's problems.
Holy Hell! :devil2: Where'd you get your MD? It's against the law to practice medicine without a license.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

You are coming to an unsubstantiated conclusion. Not all emotional or physicological problems reqiure medication and not everyone will be equiped to deal with the issues alone and do require professional help to find their way. Unsubstantiated invisible friends can do this how?

I did not say they do, or that they can, or that professional help is not sometimes needed and helpful.

The same way he created the universe if need be, OR are you one who believes that matter is eternal and produced intelligence has been substantiated?

[angela2]

This points out another advantage of seeking a solution rather than just medicating .... the expense.
"Solutions" other than medication can be even more costly in the long run.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

This is exactly the kind of crap i used to say before i learned about depression first hand. "Why cant you just deal with it and not be depressed anymore?"

I look back and am ashamed at how ignorant i was in that regard.
Depression is a medical issue, and even people with cancer get treatment while they pray. Why would a situation like Blackwater's be any different?
If someone has a medical concern, should they just pray it away? Would you suggest scripture, prayer, and any other christian bullshit as the only method of treating a ruptured appendix?

"Just sit back. The appendix is not that crucial anyway. Rather than treat it, why dont we just go over this scripture and i will tell you everyhting i know about spiritual organs, that should make it all better. Besides, if you just suck it up, you can walk off the pain of a ruptured appendix, then you can get back to worshipping the god that gave it to you in the first place..."

Is that what you are advocating Rev. Timothy G. Muse? Or have i misread something?

You've not read my posts. (I haven't suggested just praying it away and doing nothing.) Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth. Go back and read.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Sure, if I can pick the day and time.:rolleyes:

So, you admit the day is coming, but you don't know when?

Seems like you've got something to think about.

[Withered]

This thread is moving pretty fast.

Blackwater, maybe you could get a referral from the therapist you were seeing for something that is free or close to free. There are lots of community programs out there. Maybe a google search would help?

Suggesting anything less than a serious and professional treatment is cruel and ignorant, and goes a long way toward pointing out what is really dangerous up about the christian fundamentalist point of view.
Better to let someone try to will their way out of a medical problem than risk that they turn from god...

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Holy Hell! :devil2: Where'd you get your MD? It's against the law to practice medicine without a license.

No one is practicing medicine. If you've read the posts, my comments came in response to one who recommended and said all BW needed was medicine.

(and you might save your fire, it might get pretty cold this winter in Boston)

[steamer]

I do not deny that at times (as some professional Christian counselors will affirm) that medicines cannot be useful in helping a person through a crisis situation ...or to assist them for a time while they get help and deal with their problems. However, this is different that immediately looking to medicine as the ultimate cure/solution when depression occurs.

It depends on the cause of the depression which needs to be ascertained by a doctor of science not a pervayor of magic invisible sky gods.


(I present the following, recognizing it not to be depression, but as a comparative example)
Trust me... I've worked with many kids whose parents talked at length about how much their kids needed to be on Rydalin, when come to find out, there problem was not their inability to focus, but their lack of motivation to focus. These same kids, who can come off of Rydalin when their parents understand how to discipline them, otherwise would be dependent on medicine for life, not to mention the low esteem they would have hearing their parents repeatedly talk about the "problems" they have.

I hope you have the credentials and moral character to work with children as many church officers do not, but since you speak as if your pretensions were facts in areas of god's existence, then I don't see why you wouldn't speak about every other thing you know nothing about in the same way.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

This thread is moving pretty fast.

Blackwater, maybe you could get a referral from the therapist you were seeing for something that is free or close to free. There are lots of community programs out there. Maybe a google search would help?

Suggesting anything less than a serious and professional treatment is cruel and ignorant, and goes a long way toward pointing out what is really dangerous up about the christian fundamentalist point of view.
Better to let someone try to will their way out of a medical problem than risk that they turn from god...

No one has suggested BW not get professional treatment.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

STEAMER, .... you're back!
I thought if I didn't respond to you for awhile your steam would cool down and you would not blow your stack.

Well, your arguments are no different, but at least your cussing has cooled off.

[funinspace]

No one is practicing medicine. If you've read the posts, my comments came in response to one who recommended and said all BW needed was medicine.

(and you might save your fire, it might get pretty cold this winter in Boston)
I don't read your previous post/response this way. I took it just like angela2 did..but my PC went haywire...and was going to respond in a similar vain, adding how we are not in his shoes, nor in his house, nor with his counselor.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

I don't read your previous post/response this way. I took it just like angela2 did..but my PC went haywire...and was going to respond in a similar vain, adding how we are not in his shoes, nor in his house, nor with his counselor.

I concur (with your last sentence). My only point was to refute the one who seemed to state or infer that ALL he needed was medicine.

I point is this: While a professional counsel can help, IF there are spiritual problems associated with this, ... it's possible (and in some cases more than others - probable) that he may need MORE than professional counseling, he may need spiritual counseling (as well).

If so, he would NOT be the first I've seen, to leave their dependence on medicine and appointments with therapists... when the issues of their hearts and lives are dealt with.

[Withered]

IOW... medicate to cover/disguise/etc. the problem.

While this is not to suggest that there are not appropriate and necessary places for medicine (for God has even provided them for our good... when properly used and not abused), there are other (and better) solutions to BW's problems.

Do i understand this post correctly?
Maybe for the sake of clarity you could dumb this down for me.
Maybe you could include a little part about how you were able to come to such a diagnosis of Blackwater's problem as to be able to tell that medication is or is not appropriate? How do you do that over the internet and in the context of a handful of forum posts?

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Do i understand this post correctly?
Maybe for the sake of clarity you could dumb this down for me.
Maybe you could include a little part about how you were able to come to such a diagnosis of Blackwater's problem as to be able to tell that medication is or is not appropriate? How do you do that over the internet and in the context of a handful of forum posts?

I have NOT said this is his only problem. (Read my former posts.)

I have simply made the point that the one who initially made the statement that ALL he needed was medicine, ... is NOT able to make this assessment either.

Does ANYONE around hear read? Does ANYONE read posts in Context?
(No wonder the Scripture is hard for some to follow)

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

If you have problems that will be solved by Jesus, then you don't have any problems. Sounds to me like you just need to start taking your meds again or have them adjusted. Seriously, if you are not on medication you may need to be. Doctor first...then worry about Jesus.
...

THIS... is where the debate on medicines began (or at least took off)!

[steamer]

Well, your arguments are no different, but at least your cussing has cooled off.

Any your evasions are the same as well.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Now that that's solved...

It's the weekend, and I'm off to my family and to the events of the weekend, including the Celebration of Reformation - A Convocation of Worship and Celebraton of Gospel Truth!

Have a good weekend, you too Steamer,
Tim

[steamer]

I point is this: While a professional counsel can help, IF there are spiritual problems associated with this, ... it's possible (and in some