The reason why god give us deseases.

[555]

All of the disease are because of one major historical event in the Bible. One of the four things you have to account in science. "The Fall of Man," is the first sin ever committed. But lets talk a little before this. About where God created Eve. God spoke to them in the Garden of Eden everyday. They felt no pain. Their bodies were perfect. Because God foresaw all the events we ourselves have not have seen or committed, he made our bodies in a special way. God foresaw the two human's actions. After the sin was committed God punished them and their offspring for their lives forever. I will now quote the scriptures.

---------------------
4"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [c] named his wife Eve, [d] because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
---------------------

This basically explains all of the problems we have today. I myself hate having a bad back and oshgood schladers disease in both my knees. I also hate being ADD, but I accept the fact that this happened and live with them.

[Y.B]

A perfect person (and Adam and Eve were supposedly perfect) would have chosen (out of his free will) to follow God's commands, instead of the snake's. (Btw, the evil snake was created by the LORD... well, just because!)

Anyway, the whole "fall" mythology is silly, and you don't have to violate the concept of "free will" in order to argue against it.

[Coragyps]

Yawn.....16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

You missed this part, 555. And you might want to show a bit more relevance to the E/C forum, and avoid preaching.

[RAFH]

Man, dat God fellah one real sick dick. He make dem po' folk, make 'em jess like dey gwin be. Like you say, he saw what dem po' folk gonna do cuz he make em dat way and he see it all comin' cuz he make de rules. So it was jess like some puppet show, stand em up and knock em down. Sick buggah. Dey dinna have no chance, no chance in hell. Den, he go blame all us fo da same. We dinna do it, we dinna eat no apples fum no snake. Why he go do dat? Cuz he one sick buggah.

He coulda put one guard on dat tree, jess like he did wid de udder tree, but he dinna and de udder tree too late, de hoss outta de barn. He could put one fence round dat tree, but he dinna. He coulda run dat snake outa dat garden, but he dinna. He coulda told dem po' folk what gonna happen, but he dinna. He coulda told dem to be lookin out fo dat snake, but he dinna. He jess set em up and den he knock em down. Sick buggah.

You know, 555, you one fool to like dis god guy of yers, he jess gonna set you up and den he gonna knock you down, jess like dem po' folk he make back den.

I sure happy he no make me. I no get set up and knock down. I jess live mah life, luv mah wife, luv mah family and den I die. No gotta burn in hell fo'evah like you.

[Cynic of Mammon]

Quoting scripture does not make for a reasoned argument. If you had a point, I would guess it would be to argue against the notion of disease evolution (correct me if you had another purpose other than to proselytise); perhaps you might consider actually incorporating it into a thread posted on the "Evolution/creation" forum...
If I quoted Darwin, or Dawkins (more likely), his words would have no more significance to a scientific debate than Moses' do. Coragyps had a point: you preach but don't argue for anything, leaving yourself open to the rebuttal proper to any quotation based thread...

PS: don't mean to be rude, late night:angel:

[anthrosciguy]

All of the disease are because of one major historical event in the Bible. One of the four things you have to account in science. "The Fall of Man," is the first sin ever committed. But lets talk a little before this.

Before we talk, show that the Bible events you speak of are actual historical events. Until you do, your OP is meaningless as science -- it's philosophy... rather unoriginal philosophy, I'm afraid.

[Xasz]

So why did God create diseases that are limited to non-human species? What sin are they "responsible" for? :huh:

[555]

Before we talk, show that the Bible events you speak of are actual historical events. Until you do, your OP is meaningless as science -- it's philosophy... rather unoriginal philosophy, I'm afraid.

Creationists and evolutionists both start on specific functions. Evolutionists assume that the world became of nothing and there is no God, and Creationists start off by believing how the Bible states that there is a God--and then both go on to try and prove their theories via scientific means.

As I stated above, Creationists and evolutionists both start on specific functions. Evolutionists assume that the world became of nothing and there is no God, and Creationists start off by believing how the Bible states that there is a God--and then both go on to try and prove their theories via scientific means.

Continuing off of this, no, it is not possible for God to start up life and just let it take place if you're trying to base it off of Christianity--due to the fact that the Bible contradicts that statement. If one wants to base their theory more on evolution instead of creation, except tossing God into the picture and without using the Bible (which most people do not do), then there is no contradiction.

[doc_simon]

Does this explain how we evolved an immune system? I'm assuming we didn't need one before the fall, so it must have come from somewhere.

ETA: You'd have thought without immune systems, Adam and Eve would have died soon after the fall.

[Dlx2]

Creationists and evolutionists both start on specific functions. Evolutionists assume that the world became of nothing and there is no God, and Creationists start off by believing how the Bible states that there is a God--and then both go on to try and prove their theories via scientific means.

As I stated above, Creationists and evolutionists both start on specific functions. Evolutionists assume that the world became of nothing and there is no God, and Creationists start off by believing how the Bible states that there is a God--and then both go on to try and prove their theories via scientific means.

Continuing off of this, no, it is not possible for God to start up life and just let it take place if you're trying to base it off of Christianity--due to the fact that the Bible contradicts that statement. If one wants to base their theory more on evolution instead of creation, except tossing God into the picture and without using the Bible (which most people do not do), then there is no contradiction.


The difference is that science produces meaningful results (http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/100/11/6588) whereas fundamentalism leads to continued ignorance and a general worsening of health issues.

[anthrosciguy]

Creationists and evolutionists both start on specific functions. Evolutionists assume that the world became of nothing and there is no God, and Creationists start off by believing how the Bible states that there is a God--and then both go on to try and prove their theories via scientific means.

As I stated above, Creationists and evolutionists both start on specific functions. Evolutionists assume that the world became of nothing and there is no God, and Creationists start off by believing how the Bible states that there is a God--and then both go on to try and prove their theories via scientific means.

Continuing off of this, no, it is not possible for God to start up life and just let it take place if you're trying to base it off of Christianity--due to the fact that the Bible contradicts that statement. If one wants to base their theory more on evolution instead of creation, except tossing God into the picture and without using the Bible (which most people do not do), then there is no contradiction.

You forgot to provide the proof you needed to, and the fact that you didn't but instead chose to turn the talk away from this suggests you know there is no proof for you to offer. You are also assuming that creationists are always Christian which is not true. You are also claiming that all "evolutionists" do not believe in god, which is untrue -- in fact this is so widely known one would not be faulted for thinking you are not being truthful on this score -- there are many "evolutionists" who believe in god. Many of them are Chrisitians, and in fact many if not most Christian denominations have stated that they have no problem with accepting both evolution and their religion. And I doubt you'll find anyone here -- Christian, Jew, Moslem, atheist, anyone at all -- who does not completely accept that the Bible states there is a god. That is, however, not the same as saying that there is a god (only that the Bible states there is) and we're right back to where we started -- your claim that these Biblical events are actual historical events and your inability to show otherwise.

[Markoff Chaney]

Creationists and evolutionists both start on specific functions. Evolutionists assume that the world became of nothing and there is no God, and Creationists start off by believing how the Bible states that there is a God--and then both go on to try and prove their theories via scientific means.

As I stated above, Creationists and evolutionists both start on specific functions. Evolutionists assume that the world became of nothing and there is no God, and Creationists start off by believing how the Bible states that there is a God--and then both go on to try and prove their theories via scientific means.

Oh please.

In America, there are more theists who believe in evolution than the total number of atheists. And in Australia, the theory of evolution is taught in private christian schools. The theory of evolution does not exclude god. It only excludes the god described in chapter 2 of Genesis.

- The Mgt.

[Febble]

Evolutionists assume that the world became of nothing and there is no God

Bullshit. I don't. Nor do loads of people who nonetheless accept the Theory of Evolution. Like the entire catholic church for a start.

[orac]

Which raises an interesting question: if someone was to punch "555" in the nose would he be upset, or would he acknowledge that he deserved it for his part in forcing Adam to eat that damn fruit, whatever species it may have been. ;)

Whether or not there is a god, the whole thing about punishing many billions of people because of the sin of one man is about the most shockingly unjust merciless and cruel concept around. And, naturally, it's a very popular idea.

[anthrosciguy]

Which raises an interesting question: if someone was to punch "555" in the nose would he be upset, or would he acknowledge that he deserved it for his part in forcing Adam to eat that damn fruit, whatever species it may have been. ;)

Whether or not there is a god, the whole thing about punishing many billions of people because of the sin of one man is about the most shockingly unjust merciless and cruel concept around. And, naturally, it's a very popular idea.

It allows the weak-willed and lazy to point the finger at others and to not do much, if anything, to improve their condition in this world. Some religious people, including some Christians (to their credit), do not accept this easy way out.

[Howard]

You mean God made Adam and Eve so stupid that they’d believe a talking snake over the creator of the universe?!! No wonder humanity is so fucked up. We‘re descended from total morons.

[Susannah]

...Creationists start off by believing how the Bible states that there is a God...

Not quite. Some Creationists believe that. The majority of Creationists believe that the Quran states that there is a God and his name is Allah. Others believe that his name is Krishna.

And most evolutionists in the West believe that the Bible states that there is a God. Not all of them believe that the Bible is true, however. Quite a few of them do.

[cajela]

Hey, 555, you need to repeat your disclaimer from your cartoonist thread, or people will think you mean it.

[Prof]

This basically explains all of the problems we have today. I myself hate having a bad back and oshgood schladers disease in both my knees. I also hate being ADD, but I accept the fact that this happened and live with them.

Ahh...like a good slave accepting the lash of his master. Very nice.

Do you never bother to reflect upon the idea of God purposely designing the
mind-numbing array of pathogens that attack human beings? Specifically designing horror after horror? Ensuring billions upon billions of human deaths, some quick and terrible, some endlessly slow and agonizing.

Do you have no moral "twitch" within you at all concerning the utter monstrosity of the scenario, let alone that it is purportedly in vengeance against his own creation, for the "sin" of two people eating some fruit from a tree?

If you have no inner sense, no inner voice at all whispering to you how evil this is...it only speaks to the morally deadening effect of your belief system.
And it acts as an unmistakable warning away from Christianity to those of us
who have not been brainwashed to accept such sinister nonsense.

But...thanks anyway...

Prof.

(LOL, did I just waste a tongue-lashing on a spoof? If so, 555 sucked me in! I therefore aim my comments toward any Christians here who would believe the nonsense of The Fall)

[Nemoralis]

Evolutionists assume that the world became of nothing and there is no God, and Creationists start off by believing how the Bible states that there is a God--and then both go on to try and prove their theories via scientific means.
No and yes.

No, evolutionists do not believe that the world became of nothing and there is no god. (Well, some might, but these beliefs are not a pre-requisite to a belief in evolution). I go to a private Christian school, and most Christians there accept evolution as well. How does that fit with your unsupported statement?

And yes, you're right in your second statement. Creationists typically begin with the presupposition that the creation myth in Genesis is correct and then work backwards to support their conclusion. Not very scientific though, is it?

Another thing I've wondered. How can Adam and Eve be blamed for their decision to eat of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil when they had no knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the tree? In other words, they did not have all information required to make a decision as to who was correct and who they should trust (god or the snake). Sure, god commanded them not to eat of the tree. But the snake told them to go ahead and do it. Who should they trust? Without the knowledge of good and evil, how could they make an informed decision?

If that made any sense whatsoever. It made sense in my head.... :p

[RAFH]

Yes, Nemoralis, it did make sense, to anyone who was sensible. Its the same concept that YB, myself, Orac, Howard and Prof put forward. Unfortunately, its not likely to sink in.

[Scifinerdgrl]

A fairy tale caused disease? That's amazing.

I've checked the bible, and I can't find any evidence that animals committed sin, too. Yet animals get diseases, including most of the same diseases humans get.

If original sin is the cause of disease, why do wild animals get rabies?

[Coragyps]

If original sin is the cause of disease, why do wild animals get rabies?
"Collateral damage" is the Newspeak for that. That chimp that was standing next to Eve got his GLO gene smushed in the Big Zap, f'rinstance.

[Scifinerdgrl]

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil

I thought there was only one God. Who was he talking to?

[Scifinerdgrl]

"Collateral damage" is the Newspeak for that. That chimp that was standing next to Eve got his GLO gene smushed in the Big Zap, f'rinstance.

Well, if Eve was the mother of all the living, p'rhaps she was mother to the chimps.

[anthrosciguy]

Hey, 555, you need to repeat your disclaimer from your cartoonist thread, or people will think you mean it.

Oh, I didn't see all that. So what is the point of his starting threads like that -- don't we have enough actual foolishness without adding in pretend foolishness?

[555]

The difference is that science produces meaningful results whereas fundamentalism leads to continued ignorance and a general worsening of health issues.

One example and wouldn't killing off people with HIV also work? (fundamentalism).
You mean God made Adam and Eve so stupid that they’d believe a talking snake over the creator of the universe?!! No wonder humanity is so fucked up. We‘re descended from total morons.
Wouldn't it bore a god if he actually made us smart or even close to perfect?
Whether or not there is a god, the whole thing about punishing many billions of people because of the sin of one man is about the most shockingly unjust merciless and cruel concept around. And, naturally, it's a very popular idea.

It may seem cruel to you but there's the simple fact that people believe it.

[Nemoralis]

I thought there was only one God. Who was he talking to?
The pluralizing of personal pronouns just siginfies importance, me thinks...similar to earlier kings and queens who refered to themselves in the plural. It's just an ego thing.

[RAFH]

So this god fellah needs to stroke his ego as well. Excellent!!

[Nemoralis]

Exxxactly.

Either that...or the Bible was written by men who infused their own grammatical customs into their new Holy Book. Whatever works.

[dancer_rnb]

A fairy tale caused disease? That's amazing.

I've checked the bible, and I can't find any evidence that animals committed sin, too. Yet animals get diseases, including most of the same diseases humans get.

If original sin is the cause of disease, why do wild animals get rabies?

Because the original sin was Pandora opening that damn box?

I like this version better, since men are blameless

[Dlx2]

One example and wouldn't killing off people with HIV also work? (fundamentalism).

Do a search on phylogeny and epidemiology. You'll be surprised how many results you return.

Additionally, the point of that paper is that HIV jumped to humans from apes about 60 years ago, probably due to drastic changes in human lifestyle in the region as a result of economic collapse. Increase contact with other apes, and you're going to increase the communicable diseases we get from them. Even if we "killed everyone who has HIV" we'd still sttand a chance at having another strain of SIV hop over to humans.

[Porky Pine]

Wouldn't this be better off in General Religious?

[Raguel]

Wouldn't this be better off in General Religious?



probably. But in the meantime, can someone point out where in the quoted text God created diseases? :huh: I seemed to have missed it. :o

[Majestyk]

Wouldn't it bore a god if he actually made us smart or even close to perfect? I don't know. Is that your belief? Are we created for the entertainment of some supernatural being? Some thirteen year old Deity is manipulating us in their cosmic computer running a bootleg copy of "Sim Universe"?

Hardly a picture of a creature worthy of worship. How do you reconcile a perfect, divine being that is susceptible to boredom?

Of course, these are philosophical questions since, there is no evidence that such a being exists.

[Jet Black]

Wouldn't it bore a god if he actually made us smart or even close to perfect?


but he did make people other than creationists, so what are you on about?

[teotwin]

But in the meantime, can someone point out where in the quoted text God created diseases?

God is the creator. Diseases exist. Therefore...

Seems simple to me!

[EarlOfLade]

God is the creator. Diseases exist. Therefore...

Seems simple to me!

I hope you are joking?

If not, I think you are in serious need of help...

[Sounder]

I hope you are joking?

If not, I think you are in serious need of help...

Does it not logically follow that the creator of everything would also be the creator of disease?

[RBH]

Yup, GRD it is. Off it goes.

RBH, E/C Mod

[Superheavy]

Evolutionists assume that the world became of nothing and there is no God
Really? The ToE includes cosmology and metaphysics? Thanks, I didn't know that!

[Matt the Medic]

I've yet to find a theodicy that adequately explains this question without coming across as some after the fact rationalization.

Matt

[EarlOfLade]

Does it not logically follow that the creator of everything would also be the creator of disease?

But there are no creators of everything. It's all a fantasy and a way to control people which was dreamed up a few thousand years ago and people shed all their education and logical thinking and believe in the most outrageous ideas put forth by so called religious people.

It's fucking disgusting!

[Thomas II]

All of the disease are because of one major historical event in the Bible...

Disease happens because our bodies are not perfectly addapted to deal with all pathogens in our environment.

It is NOT that god GIVES us the disease. We simply get the disease when our defenses are not up to par.

[Queen of Swords]

Wouldn't it bore a god if he actually made us smart or even close to perfect?

Did he make the angels smart or are they just a bunch of halfwits?

Besides, if he's the kind of god who values his entertainment (derived from less-than-smart or less-than-perfect people) over the eternal happiness of such people (since if they're less-than-perfect they burn in hell), that makes him something of a sadist.

[xaxxat]

but he did make people other than creationists, so what are you on about?



:notworthy:

[sharon45]

The reason why god gave us diseases is as Queen of Swords points out, he is a sadist.

[spamandham]

All of the disease are because of one major historical event in the Bible. One of the four things you have to account in science. "The Fall of Man," is the first sin ever committed.

Some guy thousands of years ago ate a piece of fruit, and so now everyone gets diseases and dies. But, since a different guy died thousands of years ago, you get to eventually be a zombie, so long as you believe that guy died so you could be a zombie.


Does that pretty much summarize god's plan?

[hinduwoman]

A fairy tale caused disease? That's amazing.

I've checked the bible, and I can't find any evidence that animals committed sin, too. Yet animals get diseases, including most of the same diseases humans get.

If original sin is the cause of disease, why do wild animals get rabies?

The Bible does say "cursed be the ground for thy sake". So the animals are suffering for human sin.

[Jabu Khan]

are animals dirt?

[cajela]

are animals dirt?No! Humans are dirt, not animals. It says so right there in Genesis - he just poofed the animals into existence with a few words, but he made Adam out of dirt, and Eve out of a chunk of Adam (dirt once removed.);)