I'm a Christian again [Archive I]

excreationist

October 27, 2006, 02:50 AM

In answer to Have any IIDB atheists ever convert to Christianity? (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=146008)
Yes I have... several hours ago.
It started when I was listening to mp3's (http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/worlds_beyond.htm) (and videos) from kabbalah.info (http://www.kabbalah.info/).
Now I was a materialist who flirts with some eastern religions a little and I've been in an altered state of consciousness (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=146452).
Anyway, at kabbalah.info they were saying that kabbalists are able to access spiritual worlds because they change their egoism into altruism - their will to receive to the will to give. They become like the creator (even though I didn't believe in a creator for most of yesterday) and he gives them pleasure. People can't change their egoistic nature on their own. Basically they try to be altruistic and like the creator then the creator reveals to them how bad they really are. If the person can't try any more and gives a heartfelt prayer then the creator answers sometime and can draw near. And eventually the creator just makes them altruistic. Something like that.
Yesterday I was trying out a suicide idea I had... basically it involves a shopping bag and a large rubber band. I needed to research CO2 poisoning better. I had a much better idea as well but the materials are harder to get a hold of. So I just kept on feeling comforted by suicidal thoughts. Then I remembered kabbalah.info's "faith above reason". I don't need to worry about my rational thought processes (which are rational according to my values - like laziness, self-centeredness, avoiding people, etc)
Kabbalah.info defines faith as something like a connection or perception of the creator... so I thought I'd try that out.

I had a shower and I prayed to the creator that he'd show himself. While the water was running I knelt right down on the ground and put my head on the ground and water got up my nose. Then I thought maybe it isn't reverent enough to pray in the nude so I also prayed again later.
Later on was watching some TV and then I saw an ad for the late news story about clothing that undresses itself (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3871511). I thought that looked a bit interesting (they showed most of the video) so I started video recording some of the news and I got bored of the ad breaks and decided that it was immoral to watch (I thought it was a kabbalah concept but it mightn't be) so I went to bed. A couple of minutes later I went back to the TV and the sports part of the news was on. I thought that if the creator shows it on the TV then he wanted me to see it and if he doesn't show it then that would be annoying. Well I never saw that story (though I saw most of it on 2 ads).
Then I got the following text message from my sister:
Jesus is ur"I AM" not ur"I WAS"or"I WILL B".His GIFTS of healin,delivernce[that is like exorcism except it is for lots/most people]4giveness.etc can only b received in the NOW! Hence, the present! Victory's urs 2 receive now! If u ask Him who he is, he wil tell u"I AM"ur providr.I AM ur hope. IAM ur strength. I AM ur redeemer. I AM always wiv u..I AM ur everything becos I AM!
The next day (today) I wrote in a message that her message kind of answered my prayer and it made me interested in Jesus & God. She said she was inspired by God to write it. (BTW, she used to hear voices telling her to do bad things, but now she says she hears God telling her to do things :) )
The thing about "I AM" is that it is about God in Moses' time (and Jesus used the title too). Kabbalah.info says that the stories in the Old Testament are factual and also I think what I mentioned about Kabbalah fits the concept of the Christian conversion process pretty well.

Well I didn't sleep at all... at first I promised to stay up to dawn to fill my head with stuff so that I didn't forget about my conversion. I read some things like the bible and "the purpose driven life". I bought some Christian books today. Today I've been feeling a little high a lot of the time... (I've got bipolar disorder and I get that way when I don't have sleep) but I'll tell myself that God had a lot to do with my joy.

While reading "what on earth am I here for?" (a shortened "purpose driven life"), I came across this: 2 Chronicles 32:31 "God withdrew from Hezekiah in order to test him and to see what was really in his heart". - kabbalah talks about things like this... after all it is based on the Old Testament. I think that God (faith tells me he exists - faith above reason) did this to me. He withdrew from my life - I asked him years ago that I want to know if evolution or creation is true - and I decided that the earth is quite old and evolution is probably true. But I gave up Christianity really fast using logic. If I had had faith I wouldn't have been so black and white about it all. Maybe God deliberately made evolution and the creation story to make sure faith was needed. The New Testament talks a lot about how important faith is.

Don't worry about deconverting me... I can easily deconvert myself... well maybe not so easily... I have some emotional attachments to being a Christian. I'll probably read more Christian books including a comic book Bible and visit http://www.tektonics.org/

Biff the unclean

October 27, 2006, 03:17 AM

Faith above reason is right!
This is the dopiest thing I’ve ever read.Frankly it’s a comfort that someone involved in such loony goings on is no longer claiming to be an Atheist.

DBT

October 27, 2006, 03:22 AM

excreationist you can't be serious, surely?

excreationist

October 27, 2006, 03:30 AM

excreationist

October 27, 2006, 03:32 AM

DBT:
My faith is very weak but I'm serious.

LoungeHead

October 27, 2006, 03:34 AM

Yesterday I was trying out a suicide idea I had...
You need professional help, not religion. If you're having suicidal thoughts, it is most likely your are suffering from some sort of depression. If you've never sought professional help before, take time to choose a therapist that you can relate too. What you get out therapy will depend on what you want to achieve and the relationship you have with your therapist.
I had a shower and I prayed to the creator that he'd show himself. While the water was running I knelt right down on the ground and put my head on the ground and water got up my nose. Then I thought maybe it isn't reverent enough to pray in the nude so I also prayed again later.
If the creator cannot accept that you are not in the best state of mind when you pray to him, what sort of compassion does he have?
A couple of minutes later I went back to the TV and the sports part of the news was on. I thought that if the creator shows it on the TV then he wanted me to see it and if he doesn't show it then that would be annoying.
If you look at it bit closer, you'll notice the "creator" who wanted you to watch the TV, was in fact TV Channel news team.
Then I got the following text message from my sister:
Jesus is ur"I AM" not ur"I WAS"or"I WILL B".His GIFTS of healin,delivernce[that is like exorcism except it is for lots/most people]4giveness.etc can only b received in the NOW!...
Did she mention Luke Skywalker is a Jedi Knight? Not was, or might be.
The next day (today) I wrote in a message that her message kind of answered my prayer and it made me interested in Jesus & God. She said she was inspired by God to write it. (BTW, she used to hear voices telling her to do bad things, but now she says she hears God telling her to do things :) )
Does your family have a history of mental illness. You might want to look into that first?
The thing about "I AM" is that it is about God in Moses' time (and Jesus used the title too).
So did Descartes and Popeye.
Kabbalah.info says that the stories in the Old Testament are factual...
You might want to consider going somewhere else for your information.
Well I didn't sleep at all... at first I promised to stay up to dawn to fill my head with stuff so that I didn't forget about my conversion. I read some things like the bible and "the purpose driven life". I bought some Christian books today. Today I've been feeling a little high a lot of the time... (I've got bipolar disorder and I get that way when I don't have sleep) but I'll tell myself that God had a lot to do with my joy.
You might be better putting all this in a blog, rather than a forum post. I came across this: 2 Chronicles 32:31 "God withdrew from Hezekiah in order to test him and to see what was really in his heart"...
This might be helpful to you as well:

'I will take the Ring,' he said, 'though I do not know the way.' -- 1 Lord of the Rings.
He withdrew from my life - I asked him years ago that I want to know if evolution or creation is true ...
Read some books on evolutionary theory, then read some books on creationism, if you want to know the answer. You're asking a lot from God, you lazy sod. :devil:
If I had had faith I wouldn't have been so black and white about it all.
Maybe you are predisposed to seeing things in black and white terms? Try thinking more laterally.
Maybe God deliberately made evolution and the creation story to make sure faith was needed.
Maybe people made God because they didn't have the means at the time to come up with methodology to give them better understanding of the world. Maybe in the absence of methodology they created a story of creation to explain where they came from? You seem to be using a lot reasoning for someone supposedly converted to "faith".
The New Testament talks a lot about how important faith is.
Superman comics talk a lot about how dangerous kryptonite is... :huh:

Barbarian

October 27, 2006, 03:40 AM

LoungeHead

October 27, 2006, 03:46 AM

You're probably right Barbarian,

DBT

October 27, 2006, 03:47 AM

DBT:
My faith is very weak but I'm serious.

Sorry excreationist I misread your original post, I'm also sorry that you are in this position.
As LoungeHead said, your best option is probably to seek professional help. And good luck whatever you do, I hope it works out for you.

excreationist

October 27, 2006, 04:09 AM

You need professional help, not religion. If you're having suicidal thoughts, it is most likely your are suffering from some sort of depression. If you've never sought professional help before, take time to choose a therapist that you can relate too. What you get out therapy will depend on what you want to achieve and the relationship you have with your therapist.
I've been seeing psychiatrists once or twice a week where I live. I live in my own flat where there are also many psychiatric nurses that check up on me that I can talk to. (There are also other residents that I don't talk to unless they start the conversation) The main psychiatrist says I'm a scared little boy (at 27). I've been avoiding things like parties, school trips, etc, since I was a little kid. I agree but I don't feel like facing my social fears again if I'm depressed. Last time (in 2000) I did face my fears but then I went overboard (got hospitalized for asking the police where the criminals hung out too many times - I wanted to help the criminals)

If the creator cannot accept that you are not in the best state of mind when you pray to him, what sort of compassion does he have?
That's the ideal state in kabbalah
from kabbalah.info, attaining the worlds beyond, p29:
============================
The strength of our prayers is determined by the
strength of our yearning. In general, when we invest effort
into attaining something, our desire to attain it increases.
The strength of our desire can be judged by how much
suffering we feel from the absence of the desired object.
Suffering, not expressed in words but felt only in the heart,
is in itself a prayer.
Proceeding from the above, we can recognize that only
after strenuous, yet unsuccessful, efforts to attain what we
desire, can we pray so sincerely that we receive it. If, during
our attempts to delve into the texts, our hearts are still not
quite free from extrinsic thoughts, then our minds will not be
able to devote themselves exclusively to study, since the mind
obeys the heart.
============================

...Does your family have a history of mental illness. You might want to look into that first?
My sister (who hears voices) and my Dad have been depressed and had social anxiety. At the church my sister goes to her "gift" isn't that unusual - others see visions, etc.

"Kabbalah.info says that the stories in the Old Testament are factual..."
You might want to consider going somewhere else for your information.
I didn't mean that that proved anything. I was just going along with the religion/mysticism that appealed to me.

"Well I didn't sleep at all... at first I promised to stay up to dawn to fill my head with stuff so that I didn't forget about my conversion. I read some things like the bible and "the purpose driven life". I bought some Christian books today. Today I've been feeling a little high a lot of the time... (I've got bipolar disorder and I get that way when I don't have sleep) but I'll tell myself that God had a lot to do with my joy."

You might be better putting all this in a blog, rather than a forum post.
I think it added to my conversion story.

"He withdrew from my life - I asked him years ago that I want to know if evolution or creation is true ... "

Read some books on evolutionary theory, then read some books on creationism, if you want to know the answer. You're asking a lot from God, you lazy sod. :devil:
I wrote "I decided that the earth is quite old and evolution is probably true".... I disagree that I could "know" the answer.
Anyway I read some books on evolution, creationism and against creationism. I was finally deconverted by another ex-creationist. I just wanted God to make it clear who's right with all the counter-counter-counter-arguments - that he'd guide me like a good luck charm to the relevant books and pages.

"If I had had faith I wouldn't have been so black and white about it all."
Maybe you are prediposed to seeing things in black and white terms? Try thinking more laterally.
Well I can think laterally - I can be very creative and see nuances in things (if I learn enough about a subject). But I basically trusting Answers In Genesis's theology and it seems to fit the Bible better than theistic evolution explanations. I'll just be agnostic on the matter as a Christian.

Maybe people made God because the didn't have the means at the time to come up with methodology to give them better understanding of the world. Maybe in the absence of methodology they created a story of creation to explain where they came from? You seem to be using a lot reasoning for someone supposedly converted to "faith".
Yeah my religion can be explained away quite easily. But I need those Bible verses that talk about God not always answering prayers or being close. That way I feel more secure.

"The New Testament talks a lot about how important faith is."
Superman comics talk a lot about how dangerous kryptonite is... :huh:
The New Testament is a holy book in my religion!

excreationist

October 27, 2006, 04:27 AM

DBT:
Thanks...

Wads4

October 27, 2006, 04:27 AM

Wads4

October 27, 2006, 04:30 AM

Maybe applying reason to approach life's problems is a luxury that few people can afford? I mean, life might suck so hard that one is better not facing its entirety? We are weak, after all.

The EAC is doomed to failure, folks.

Surely it takes reason to work out where your next meal is coming from. "God will provide" is a rather hit and miss approach.

Wads4

October 27, 2006, 04:31 AM

[quote[Kabbalah.info says that the stories in the Old Testament are factual... [/quote]

Which ones?--the murders and incest and slaughter and genocide?

excreationist

October 27, 2006, 04:55 AM

Surely it takes reason to work out where your next meal is coming from. "God will provide" is a rather hit and miss approach.
There are many examples of unanswered prayer of those who need it in the Bible. Though some verses more or less say "God will provide" it gets more complex if you take into account other parts of the Bible (him testing them).

"Kabbalah.info says that the stories in the Old Testament are factual..."

Which ones?--the murders and incest and slaughter and genocide?
Yeah, and a lot of that is in the 613 Mitzvot...
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
Those are 613 laws that supposedly correspond with people's 613 desires. That part of kabbalah doesn't appeal to me.

What is the point of all this? Don't you have the courage of your convictions?
I try not to assert things too much...

Do you even know what your convictions are?
Well it would be that the Bible is true somehow, perhaps metaphorically and that God is real.

Perhaps you just need counselling.
Well I get counselling a lot... and medication...

Pavlov's Dog

October 27, 2006, 05:14 AM

You need professional help, not religion.

Quoted for truth.

excreationist

October 27, 2006, 05:44 AM

southernhybrid

October 27, 2006, 07:12 AM

If liberal religion does something for you that psychotropic meds and counseling couldn't, that's a pretty powerful treatment. I'm happy for you.

Barbarian

October 27, 2006, 07:12 AM

He said that people should trust God and not just wait for feelings or emotions. I'm not really believing anymore unless I try... I guess I could pray to God about it. Me writing this all down seems like I'm making a mockery out of it.
You merely sound to be in the middle of the usual confusion associated with the settling down of a recently shifted worldview. I would not be much bothered by it if I were in your shoes except for the fact that you mentioned suicidal thoughts. Obviously you are infinitely better off as a religious person than a dead one, but I worry what happens if you lean against the crutch of religion with the full weight of your life problems and then the crutch breaks. You may unexpectedly swing back to atheism at a time of dire need for the crutch of religion.

I think professional help is a better solution.

Steve Schlicht

October 27, 2006, 07:49 AM

One of my very good friends who has been an atheist for years converted recently. Most of his life he bordered on depression and (due to some health issues) was always single and lonely. He distracted himself alot with the escapism of PC games and hardly ever interacted on a social level except for his 1-3 really close friends (two of whom were also atheist). His financial and future outlook was bleak and he went through cycles where he would have a job/direction and then he would not.

Eventually, debtors and depression caught up with him and he moved away (just prior to Katrina now that I think about it...I'll have to look into his alleged string of bad luck issues!). After being out of the picture for awhile he contacted me by phone and told me that he was getting his life back together, found the his soulmate and began speaking to me using all of the Christian lingo.

I was a groomsman in his church wedding earlier this year and had a great time knowing that he was really, really happy.

Here is a link to a prior post I made on this specific topic of conversion:

My Friend (http://iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3494121#post3494121)

We still gaffe on each other about certain elements of religion and he (along with another "Christian" friend of mine) both realize that they might just "believe" as a matter of benevolent expediency.

Follow your bliss and be sure to put it into real action!

:wave:

Steve

babelfish

October 27, 2006, 08:00 AM

Osbert

October 27, 2006, 08:10 AM

What about professional help AND religion?

edit: I talked to the pastor of my family's Lutheran church on the phone and he says that sometimes people really feel the presence of God and other times they don't. He said that people should trust God and not just wait for feelings or emotions. I'm not really believing anymore unless I try... I guess I could pray to God about it. Me writing this all down seems like I'm making a mockery out of it.

There is one benefit to your feeling like this, at least you are getting to know yourself and if it doesn't harm you it will make you stronger.

In the words of some sage:

To know others is learned,
to know yourself is wise.

I have read some of your posts and you are very clever and coherent, do you have the company of friends? Or do you have to go thru' this ordeal on your own? A similar crisis happened to me a while back and it is painful to hear the moaning. You must dry your bones in the sun and find the effort in the recesses, the core is always intact if you don't drown it in sorrow.
I am probably not making sense...

Pavlov's Dog

October 27, 2006, 08:13 AM

I would be careful offering advice about using religion as suicide prevention. What ever is preventing his suicide today, could be causing it tomorrow. He obviously needs to talk to a mental health professional and unless you are such a professional, I wouldn't advise him to self-medicate with religion. If you are really suicidal, talk to a professional about it.

EarlOfLade

October 27, 2006, 08:32 AM

Now I was a materialist who flirts with some eastern religions a little and I've been in an altered state of consciousness (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=146452).

So, I see that you never were an atheist in the first place, so why this post?

Brother Daniel

October 27, 2006, 08:34 AM

The positive emotional impact of a religious conversion can be short-lived.

A very dear friend of mine has serious depressive tendencies. Her worst episode (which took away 2 years of her life, most of that time institutionalized) started about a year after she became a Christian.

She appears to be on a slow path to deconversion. Right now she'd probably best be classified as either a very liberal Christian or a non-systematic theist. The farther she gets from the Christianity of her original conversion experience, the more mentally stable she appears to be. At least to me. (Of course, my biases are probably affecting my observations.)

Brother Daniel

October 27, 2006, 08:46 AM

excreationist,

Be warned about www.tektonics.org.

J P Holding is an intellectual bully. He appears to be convinced that he is the smartest person on the planet.

The main force of his work resides in his relentless sneering and use of ridicule. (He calls it "satire", but I don't think that word means exactly what he thinks it does.) It is very hard work to fight off the emotional effects of all the sneering, in order to deal with the substance of his arguments. Indeed, his arguments have some substance -- but not enough (IMO) to take him seriously.

Aikanaro

October 27, 2006, 09:21 AM

Well - Christianity seems to be a useful tool for you ... but I'm not sure how exactly you can just basically decide that you're going to believe (that's how I'm reading you anyway). It would be like trying to convince myself of Santa's existence - impossible.

angela2

October 27, 2006, 10:37 AM

Gooch's dad

October 27, 2006, 10:42 AM

So, I see that you never were an atheist in the first place, so why this post?

The No True Scotsman fallacy rears it's ugly head already? :rolleyes:

Barbarian

October 27, 2006, 10:48 AM

The No True Scotsman fallacy rears it's ugly head already? :rolleyes:
Well, excreationist did pray to the creator first and reconverted only later. That could not possibly happen to an atheist.

Steve Schlicht

October 27, 2006, 10:51 AM

IMO anything that keeps a suicidal person alive for one more minute is a really good idea. Try to debunk Christianity or atheism or pantheism or anything else that is keeping him alive is insensitive to say the least.

I wholeheartedly agree!

It just shows the depth of hostility toward Christianity.

To focus solely and routinely on just the hostility is also insensitive, in my view, angela2.

Recognizing the causes for such hostility would be beneficial.

So would at least an equal amount of effort recognizing where there is no hostility toward Christianity...just a polite and sound refutation of it.

There is an abundance of evidence that most people expressing themselves would rather engage the polar opposite in conflict rather than settling down and suppressing the desire to "confront" in order to hopefully find sound reasoning...and maybe even a commonality of real purpose in our human condition.

My experience has been that while it is very difficult to do, this is usually where the most value is discovered.

:wave:

Steve

Gooch's dad

October 27, 2006, 10:55 AM

Well, excreationist did pray to the creator first and reconverted only later. That could not possibly happen to an atheist.

And that isn't true either. What is unscientific about praying, if you don't assume that you'll get an answer? It's doing an experiment to test a hypothesis. I've done it before myself--but my experiments always came out with a null result.

Godless Dave

October 27, 2006, 10:59 AM

Your readiness to accept Answers in Genesis's nonsense worries me. Be aware that many con artists prey on people who are suffering from mental illness.

excreationist

October 27, 2006, 01:18 PM

about Christianity
pros
a purpose for living
it's pretty interesting (I haven't read most of the Bible properly)
it's a way of reliving primary school/high school times
it has commands that I can pick and choose from - at the moment relatives and psychiatric staff have made it too easy to choose learned helplessness.
there's God to pray to

some cons
shame/guilt and confessing
having to really accept Jesus as Lord
having times when the mood is low and God feels particularly absent

I think I'll also keep stuff from kabbalah.info (except the mechanistic spiritual framework like the 10 sefirot (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Sefirot/Sefirot.html)) and some of the new agey stuff from Maddona's kabbalah center. (kabbalah.com) That would be the source of half of the core theology...
If my faith becomes a habit and my cynical side is kept in check then I think I'd find patterns in my experiences (coincidences, etc) that fit my beliefs because I'd be looking for it.

Your readiness to accept Answers in Genesis's nonsense worries me. Be aware that many con artists prey on people who are suffering from mental illness.
I became a young-earther when I was 13 - before that my science teacher at a public school said that he didn't believe in evolution and a museum exhibit had a respectful panel about biblical creation. There was a "creation bus" show which said that dinosaurs were dragons and how a behemoth seemed to be a dinosaur, and they talked about the biasses of scientists, etc. They wouldn't be exploiting people knowingly I mean I think the creationists are convinced of their beliefs.

...It is very hard work to fight off the emotional effects of all the [tektonics.org] sneering, in order to deal with the substance of his arguments. Indeed, his arguments have some substance -- but not enough (IMO) to take him seriously.
The plan was to strengthen my faith a bit against the worst problem areas in the bible. Maybe there are other sites that deal with that.

If you are really suicidal, talk to a professional about it.
I have many times but there are only so many counter-arguments they have against it. They have a hard time convincing me to live a full life rather than keep the suicide back door open in case life is too troubling. BTW, for a few days I stopped being suicidal by believing that those who commit suicide suffer eternally in hell. It would lead to me just staying alive and existing. I just forgot to maintain the belief before it became a habit, plus I needed to have suicide on my mind to think of the hell part too.

So, I see that you never were an atheist in the first place, so why this post?
I think some eastern beliefs are compatible with atheism to some degree e.g. zen buddhism and the beginner's mind - if you don't literally literally believe that the mind and the environment are one. I also liked the idea of taoism and some hindu ideas but it was for a short time and no gods were involved.

I have read some of your posts and you are very clever and coherent, do you have the company of friends? Or do you have to go thru' this ordeal on your own?
I've got 3 friends from high school that I occassionally talk to but they don't respond well if I talk to them about my problems. They sometimes try and solve it then give up and don't like my negative attitude. (In real life I'm not very spontaneous, have next to nothing to say, talk in a pretty dull voice, am afraid to have fun with people or be warm.)
You must dry your bones in the sun and find the effort in the recesses, the core is always intact if you don't drown it in sorrow.
I am probably not making sense...
Keep your problems external to your core or something?

EarlOfLade

October 27, 2006, 01:36 PM

IMO anything that keeps a suicidal person alive for one more minute is a really good idea. Trying to debunk Christianity or atheism or pantheism or anything else that is keeping him alive is insensitive to say the least. It just shows the depth of hostility toward Christianity.
And when religious people kill we should look the other way because religion may save someone from committing suicide?

I think we have more ways to deal with suicide than just religion, but it's harder to deal with those who kill in the name of religion.

show_no_mercy

October 27, 2006, 01:45 PM

it has commands that I can pick and choose from

...

Barbarian

October 27, 2006, 01:59 PM

And that isn't true either. What is unscientific about praying, if you don't assume that you'll get an answer? It's doing an experiment to test a hypothesis. I've done it before myself--but my experiments always came out with a null result.It just doesn't sound right to me to call such an activity 'prayer'. I wouldn't really know, since I never prayed, but it seems from the exhortations of theists that you are supposed to open your heart to the Lord and address him etc. to pray (unless you are a Catholic), and I just don't see how can you do that if you are not convinced of the existence of said Lord (or Lady or whatever).

Pendaric

October 27, 2006, 02:23 PM

Whatever gets you through the night ex-creationist.

I hope life pans out better for you.

angela2

October 27, 2006, 02:50 PM

And when religious people kill we should look the other way because religion may save someone from committing suicide?

I think we have more ways to deal with suicide than just religion, but it's harder to deal with those who kill in the name of religion.
apples and oranges

Godless Dave

October 27, 2006, 02:52 PM

apples and oranges

But from the same tree.

angela2

October 27, 2006, 02:54 PM

So would at least an equal amount of effort recognizing where there is no hostility toward Christianity...just a polite and sound refutation of it.
And you think that's what this guy needs right now?

Surely there are enough threads on this board where people can do that without risking harm to anyone.

EarlOfLade

October 27, 2006, 02:59 PM

apples and oranges
Not at all.

Answer the question or argue for your stance of apples and oranges.

steamer

October 27, 2006, 03:00 PM

a purpose for living

What purpose do you think Christianity gives you? Every description of heaven I've ever heard describes it as being without purpose, giving god something he cannot reasonably desire and cannot lack while your loved ones roast or are ostracized.

Morgana

October 27, 2006, 03:14 PM

Do what you have to to keep yourself sane. If religious faith is what you need, hold to it. Good luck to you.

They wouldn't be exploiting people knowingly I mean I think the creationists are convinced of their beliefs.
Please be careful about the creationists though. They are so convinced of their beliefs that they simply ignore anything that contradicts those beliefs. They repeat untruths long after they have been shown that their statements are incorrect.

Some of those creationists become quite wealthy by their actions. It is hard to know that they are not exploiting their situation.

Steve Schlicht

October 27, 2006, 07:11 PM

And you think that's what this guy needs right now?

Surely there are enough threads on this board where people can do that without risking harm to anyone.

I already offered worthy and helpful advice to excreationist.

The advice you quoted...was for you.

:wave:

Steve

sharon45

October 27, 2006, 07:20 PM

about Christianity
pros
a purpose for livingA purpose for living can be attained by atheists as well.
it's pretty interesting (I haven't read most of the Bible properly)Atheists can read and enjoy the bible or any other belief system they choose to just like studying the Greek gods. A lot of wisdom can come from all these different view points throughout history but no one needs to literally believe in any of it to still be able to take great benefits from them.
it's a way of reliving primary school/high school timesYou can still relive your adolescent years by simply remembering, looking through saved photos and writings, yearbooks, and talking with friends and acquaintances from the period.
it has commands that I can pick and choose from - at the moment relatives and psychiatric staff have made it too easy to choose learned helplessness.Again, an atheist can learn from and follow certain rules or ideas contained in many different belief systems without having to actually believe in the belief.
there's God to pray toNow this one is of course very different. An atheist can still have breaks with quiet moments of thinking or meditation. They can also consult with family, friends, and counselors.

some cons
shame/guilt and confessingThese too can be a large part of atheism. One can set standards or goals they wish to achieve in order to create a more fullfilling and productive life for themselves and for those around them. Serious acknowledgement of mistakes and weaknesses is just the first but most important part of a healthy attitude needed towards rectifying these into added strengths in time.
having to really accept Jesus as LordYes, that one is solely up to you. Is there a lord? Do you need a lord? Is jesus really the lord or is it one from the other numerous religions? That will have to be your own personal choice but you do have plenty of infomation out there to explorer thoroughly so that you can more adequately make a proper decision to stand by.
having times when the mood is low and God feels particularly absentThat again is also the time when its important for moments of quiet reflection and along with consultation with those that you can trust.

Excreationist, you can take and leave any rules or advice you come accross in your search for placement and satisfaction in this life. There is no need to rush anything without first being completely sure that your decisions are right for you.

I too have suffered with many bouts of depression for a lot of my life, but mine was mainly because of religion and its effects, but I was never really religious.

EthnAlln

October 27, 2006, 07:57 PM

Faith above reason is right!
This is the dopiest thing I’ve ever read.Frankly it’s a comfort that someone involved in such loony goings on is no longer claiming to be an Atheist.

Somebody's LAW comes to mind here....

ETA: Hmm, maybe not. excreationist, I apologize for doubting you. Best of luck to you. I hope you overcome the depression.

Venom

October 27, 2006, 08:04 PM

excreationist

October 27, 2006, 08:50 PM

Well my faith is very weak partly due to being so self-conscious about the actual process of the conversion. There is a big inner struggle that is very unpleasant. But at least I'm not fighting myself over how or if I should kill myself.

What purpose do you think Christianity gives you? Every description of heaven I've ever heard describes it as being without purpose, giving god something he cannot reasonably desire and cannot lack while your loved ones roast or are ostracized.
I mean it gives me some direction that is quite helpful (I'm reluctant to try and convert others though, mainly because I'm not a model Christian at the moment) It gives me something to do with my time (to keep the faith) and the "purpose driven life" sets out 5 purposes for Christians.
(here's "what on earth am I here for" - the first 7 chapters of "purpose driven life")
http://www.purposedrivenlife.com/samplechapters/index.aspx#
They say the purpose is to give glory to God
1. getting to know and love him
2. learning to love other people in God's family
3. becoming like Christ
4. serving others
5. telling others about him
(kabbalah.info would agree to the first 4)
Apparently God helps give you the strength to do those things rather than you having to rely on your own power (same in kabbalah, to go from egoism to altruism)
Christianity's morality also gives me some opinions on things rather than being conflicted between lots of different viewpoints. e.g. I would see pornography as immoral, or at least not for me, etc.

It just doesn't sound right to me to call such an activity 'prayer'. I wouldn't really know, since I never prayed, but it seems from the exhortations of theists that you are supposed to open your heart to the Lord and address him etc. to pray (unless you are a Catholic), and I just don't see how can you do that if you are not convinced of the existence of said Lord (or Lady or whatever).
While listening to many hours of stuff on the kabbalah method I became fairly convinced that it might work. Maybe the kabbalists are deluded in their beliefs but it would be hard for them to fake their own happiness when they have lots of students. I wanted that so I was calling out to their Creator (known by many names such as YHWH).

sharon45:
I agree with what you're saying.
There is no need to rush anything without first being completely sure that your decisions are right for you.
Sometimes I get quickly get close to making a suicide attempt. I think I'll see if I can get more medication since I'm on a medium dose.

EthnAlln

October 27, 2006, 08:57 PM

I too was an athiest for a long time. After a few years of being athiest I started to see the other side of possibilities. Today I do believe there is a God, but now it's too late. I have spent my last few years blaspheming, so there's no help for me now. I wish others who are going through doubt would watch their words closely. Someday something might happen that brings about a change of heart. But if you have spent your life calling the bible a "stupid book of lies" .. your just screwed. And it's over.

So, you think you are damned because of your blasphemy? Catholics would say that you are damned for not believing in the possibility of forgiveness, not for the blasphemy, which is quite forgivable.

But if you mean blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is the unforgivable sin, the explanation I've heard is that it renders repentance impossible and thus is unforgivable only in the sense that non-repentance always is unforgivable. If you want to repent (so say Catholics), you can.

But this is just one more in the long series of blots in the copybook of Christianity, putting completely factitious fears of hell into the minds of the credulous. Watch out, God'll get you! It's pathetic. How anybody could believe in such a God and at the same time affirm that it is a "good" God is beyond me.

Venom

October 27, 2006, 09:50 PM

I am not catholic, but to hear people from my church, the holy ghost is The holy bible itself. So to say the bible isnt true is the unforgivable blasphemy. I have that deep dark feeling I am going to burn. But to not bother to try and save myself because I "think" I may be damned, is no different than not bothering to save myself because I don't believe in damnation. I am still to this day not sure what I believe deep down; Except that there's more to me than the shell I inhabit.

Pavlov's Dog

October 27, 2006, 10:06 PM

I have many times but there are only so many counter-arguments they have against it. They have a hard time convincing me to live a full life rather than keep the suicide back door open in case life is too troubling. BTW, for a few days I stopped being suicidal by believing that those who commit suicide suffer eternally in hell. It would lead to me just staying alive and existing. I just forgot to maintain the belief before it became a habit, plus I needed to have suicide on my mind to think of the hell part too.

If treatment hasn't worked for you in the past and you still have suicidal thoughts, then you need to be committed to an institution and get more intense treatment until you are no longer a threat to yourself or possibly others. Self-medicating with Christianity is not the answer, especially when your faith is as shakey as yours. If you truly want to die and have some type of terminal illness or great pain, then I wish you luck. If you want to die because you feel that your life has no purpose, then see a professional. It could be something as treatable as depression.

excreationist

October 27, 2006, 10:33 PM

Hmmm... this cognitive dissonance is pretty uncomfortable. I had an annoying dream last night about it.... I wanted the intellectual task in the dream to make sense but it wouldn't. Maybe I'll be a liberal Christian even though I'm agnostic.

If treatment hasn't worked for you in the past and you still have suicidal thoughts, then you need to be committed to an institution and get more intense treatment until you are no longer a threat to yourself or possibly others.
I have been hospitalized several months ago for attempting suicide (but I stopped myself after a while - mainly because I was feeling uncomfortable). My main problem is that I don't really look forward to the future and I have social fears which means my future would be awkward. (I could go on about my situation more specifically) To look forward to the future I really need a pretty concrete vision, at least for the short term, and dreams for the future.

Self-medicating with Christianity is not the answer, especially when your faith is as shakey as yours. If you truly want to die and have some type of terminal illness or great pain, then I wish you luck. If you want to die because you feel that your life has no purpose, then see a professional. It could be something as treatable as depression.
Well like I wrote I am on medication (that is being adjusted and changed a lot) and I see psychiatrists and psychiatric nurses a lot. I've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder (which includes depression). I've also been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder. I also do quite a bit of walking - though a more strenuous exercise might be better for depression.

excreationist

October 28, 2006, 12:16 AM

I've been reading some of Joyce Meyer's "Battlefield of the Mind".

James 1:3-8
You know that you learn to endure by having your faith tested. But you must learn to endure everything, so that you will be completely mature and not lacking in anything.
If any of you need wisdom, you should ask God, and it will be given to you. God is generous and won't correct you for asking. But when you ask for something, you must have faith and not doubt. Anyone who doubts is like an ocean wave tossed around in a storm. If you are that kind of person, you can't make up your mind, and you surely can't be trusted. So don't expect the Lord to give you anything at all.
:banghead:

edit:
It seems like drenching my head with water is an ok solution to the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. I originally started doing that to get past the headaches I was getting while writing my Is Life Real? (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=146452) posts. Hmmm.... I need some headache tablets too.

aegis

October 28, 2006, 12:54 AM

Hey excreationist, if you find that religion improves your quality of life, go for it. If you immerse yourself in it you can become a believer, evidence or not.

But I would really caution you against doing so. I turned to religion when I was having a difficult time in my life, and at first it helped me but in the long run it caused far more damage than I could have imagined when I first got involved in it.

excreationist

October 28, 2006, 01:18 AM

please go on...

aegis

October 28, 2006, 01:29 AM

please go on...

I dunno if that was in reference to my post, but if so, the particulars of the (Christian) teachings really harmed my quality of life. At first it really helped me to believe in a God and an afterlife, but then I started taking things like hell and sin seriously as well. Aside from restricting my daily activities it also created a lot of anxiety. I've since left religion and I'm never going back, I find it easier to deal with a finite existence here on earth. If I ever went back to a form of religion, it would be deism or theism but not any of the Abrahamic faiths.

Unbeatable

October 28, 2006, 02:02 AM

Maybe applying reason to approach life's problems is a luxury that few people can afford? I mean, life might suck so hard that one is better not facing its entirety? We are weak, after all.

I think that is indeed the case. I don't know if you're being tongue-in-cheek, but I'm not.

Osbert

October 28, 2006, 02:48 AM

Keep your problems external to your core or something?

More or less; inside of you there are days of optimism and perhaps even joy.
Seek those memories, be selfish; the good bits in you deserve some recognition and encouragement.
If you cannot love the whole of yourself at least love and protect some of yourself.

Throw some bad pebbles out of the window.

And if you must get into Qabalah the most genuine is the Lurianic Qabalah.

LoungeHead

October 28, 2006, 02:51 AM

I've been seeing psychiatrists once or twice a week where I live.
Psychiatrist might not necessarily be the professional help you need. I was referring more to psycho-therapy, so you can become comfortable with your psychological condition and learn skills to management it, especially during stressful times. The fact your psychiatrist is saying things like you're "a scared little boy," seems wrong. From a perspective of therapy, I don't see how such judgements would be conducive to your recovery.

I have experienced much of the symptoms you have described to some very dangerous levels. The best thing you can do is learn about yourself. Your focus on external questions, i.e. what is reality, what am I, what is my purpose, is just a distraction.
I live in my own flat where there are also many psychiatric nurses that check up on me that I can talk to.
Talking to people isn't necessarily conducive, unless you intend to achieve something from it i.e. form strategies to avoid the mania, psychosis, stress ..etc. Preventive health measures are far better than having an ambulance waiting at the bottom of the cliff.
I've been avoiding things like parties, school trips, etc, since I was a little kid. I agree but I don't feel like facing my social fears again if I'm depressed.
When you're depressed you should really only focus on overcoming depression. Put aside whatever social issues you have for the moment, in so far as they do not relate to your depression.
Last time (in 2000) I did face my fears but then I went overboard (got hospitalized for asking the police where the criminals hung out too many times - I wanted to help the criminals)
:) Thats the problem with mania, you can sometimes take it too far in the other direction. It's not a matter of facing your fears, its learning what your fears are, and where they stem from, what they mean to you, and why you have them. I used to have audial hallucinations when others around me, who were not necessarily talking to me or about me, seemed to say things that had vowel or consonant sounds that sounded similiar to negative words or comments that seemed to be referring to me. After therapy I learnt it was the simply the negative criticism of my low-self esteem. It was my brain giving feedback information of repetitive mental states and behaviour based on past negative social environments. The trick for me was to work out who in my life had made those statements or used those negative terms. Once I did that I was able to defuse them and stop the hallucinations. I occasionally sometimes still have them when I'm stressed, but I'm not as bothered by them anymore, and it has become a bit of game trying to workout who said such things about me. The human brain is an amazing and strange thing.
My sister (who hears voices) and my Dad have been depressed and had social anxiety. At the church my sister goes to her "gift" isn't that unusual - others see visions, etc.
While these people may have good intentions, that does not sound like a good environment. The last thing you need when in a psychological crisis (which in my experience verges on or is a form of pychosis) is people promoting fantastical ideas. I think it will only confuse you, and distract you from what you really need to be doing, which is finding out about yourself.
The New Testament is a holy book in my religion!
And superman comics aren't sacred to superman fans? :huh:

excreationist

October 28, 2006, 03:56 AM

Psychiatrist might not necessarily be the professional help you need. I was referring more to psycho-therapy, so you can become comfortable with your psychological condition and learn skills to management it, especially during stressful times.
But maybe I just want to give up the struggle and end it all... That would be the depression talking which may only be temporary but I'd think I'm sick of it and just want an escape. I'll see if there are any other therapists I could use too...

The fact your psychiatrist is saying things like you're "a scared little boy," seems wrong. From a perspective of therapy, I don't see how such judgements would be conducive to your recovery.
He is pointing out why I'm not getting my desires or needs met. I have a lot of fears when dealing with other people. BTW I forgot to mention that I've never gotten a date in my life partly due to rejecting offers I didn't quite like and being scared and being turned down and being led on for to long by girls who didn't want to hurt my feelings. So I occassionally go to legal brothels - and my 2 friends aren't happy at all about that. With my mental illness it is hard to get close to anyone (even as friends) without scaring them off by the label (so I've got to remember to take a long, long time to mention it, if at all). My psychiatrist tells me the quote "when you get to my age, it's the things you didn't do you regret" - he is trying to inspire me to go outside of my comfort zone, but I don't want to really.

....The best thing you can do is learn about yourself....
What can I learn about myself?

Your focus on external questions, i.e. what is reality, what am I, what is my purpose, is just a distraction....
Having a purpose or direction is a way of driving me through life rather than living a day to day existence unsure of my future. In the past whenever I was happy I had direction in life.

Talking to people isn't necessarily conducive, unless you intend to achieve something from it i.e. form strategies to avoid the mania,
I think I can avoid mania.... I just have to make sure I get enough sleep. I did miss a night's sleep and was feeling a bit manic (or maybe it was a normal level of happiness for a change) but now I've had sleep.

When you're depressed you should really only focus on overcoming depression. Put aside whatever social issues you have for the moment, in so far as they do not relate to your depression.
But my depression keeps coming back and it is in response to things like my social problems so no wonder it keeps on coming back.

....It's not a matter of facing your fears, its learning what your fears are, and where they stem from, what they mean to you, and why you have them....
Maybe the reason I avoided parties, camps, excursions, etc, was because I have a mum who worries a lot and that anxiety about unfamiliar situations was transferred onto me. Or I just didn't like not being in control. That's more like it... In most places I could just escape or fade into the background rather than feel overwhelmed... but not at those things I avoided.

Aikanaro

October 28, 2006, 07:38 AM

Hmm - so why choose Christianity as your crutch of choice? It sounds like the only reason for your conversion is that it gives you a good reason not to kill yourself, but surely there are others that could do that just as effectively without the baggage of Christianity.

Of course, Christianity has a large support group which may come in handy, and there are even some funky denominations (I'd recommend looking into the Society of Friends - less nutty than a lot of others).

excreationist

October 28, 2006, 08:04 AM

Hmm - so why choose Christianity as your crutch of choice?....
pros
a purpose for living
it's pretty interesting (I haven't read most of the Bible properly)
it's a way of reliving primary school/high school times
it has commands that I can pick and choose from - at the moment relatives and psychiatric staff have made it too easy to choose learned helplessness.
there's God to pray to
and also all of my relatives and most of their friends are Christians. (my sisters are pentecostal and others are Lutheran)
Its insistance to be humble could be quite helpful for me. Just before, my mum said I need to prepare some strawberries - and cut off the overripe parts. I couldn't really stand doing it at all and gave up after less than a minute and she did the rest. I feel like I should be entitled to far more power and control than I already have. I'd like to control everything - then maybe set little challenges for myself though I'd probably get bored after a while - life might feel empty if the challenges aren't genuine.

Johnny Skeptic

October 28, 2006, 08:05 AM

I just converted as a way of not killing myself. Also all my relatives and most of their friends are Christian. BTW, being seen as a loony is one of the things that depresses me but I don't need to worry so much about that I think. Anyway, you see I've been depressed a long time and sometimes I think up a grand way out. And this time people usually aren't worried for my sanity.... unless I explained my reasoning to them. It's fairly straightforward... I liked hearing about kabbalah but I didn't have the time to learn to become a kabbalist. So I get a lot of my faith in Christianity because of my attraction to kabbalah (it is a bit incompatible though). Faith above reason saved my life. As far as it being dopey, I hope to connect with people and make friends, etc. I guess I've got to straighten out. As a Christian I guess. I'm half-hearted about it though. I tell people I've been reading about "religion" lately...

Since reason can save a person's life too, and since faith can cause a person to lose his life in many different ways, your arguments are obviously not valid. In addition, the followers of other religions sometimes use the same arguments that you are using. How do you account for the fact that God kills some people with hurricanes who want to commit suicide, thus depriving them of the opportunity to change their minds? How do you account for the fact that God causes, or allows, some people to want to commit suicide? I am referring to suffering, terminally ill people who want to use physician assisted suicide. Exodus 4:11 says that God causes people to become blind, deaf, and dumb. If that is true, it is no wonder that some people who are blind, deaf, or dumb, or in some cases all three, want to die.

Now I am not encouraging you to commit suicide. I am encouraging you to look for reasons to go on living other than being a Christian. I don't think that you are loony. You just need some help getting your life together. Help is out there, you just have to find it.

Are you aware that if you lived in a Muslim country, you might have accepted Islam instead of Christianity and now be defending Islam for saving your life?

excreationist

October 28, 2006, 08:26 AM

Since reason can save a person's life too, and since faith can cause a person to lose his life in many different ways, your arguments are obviously not valid.
In that quote I was talking about myself, not extrapolating to other people.... and I don't think faith would make it more likely for me to die.

In addition, the followers of other religions sometimes use the same arguments that you are using.
I'm not saying that Christianity is definitely right but it's just a belief system (b.s.) that might work for me.

How do you account for the fact that God kills some people with hurricanes who want to commit suicide, thus depriving them of the opportunity to change their minds?
??? Well I guess the person would have either had killed themselves on their own, or the victim is just like other innocent victims.

How do you account for the fact that God causes, or allows, some people to want to commit suicide?
I guess his test would be too hard and their faith wasn't strong enough, but maybe they avoid hell if they were saved.

I am referring to suffering, terminally ill people who want to use physician assisted suicide.
I don't think the Bible permits that.

Exodus 4:11 says that God causes people to become blind, deaf, and dumb. If that is true, it is no wonder that some people who are blind, deaf, or dumb, or in some cases all three, want to die.
I'm not sure if disabled people get much more suicidal than other people.

Now I am not encouraging you to commit suicide. I am encouraging you to look for reasons to go on living other than being a Christian. I don't think that you are loony. You just need some help getting your life together. Help is out there, you just have to find it.
Yeah though I'd have to go to the effort of looking, which I'll probably do.

Are you aware that if you lived in a Muslim country, you might have accepted Islam instead of Christianity and now be defending Islam for saving your life?
I said that "faith above reason" saved my life.... but anyway I don't have much of a problem with deluded beliefs that aren't particularly harmful at the moment. I used to believe in knowledge at all costs. Hmmm.... maybe less effort would be involved for me to just have specific delusions about things such as my social skills so that I can overcome my fears. A psychologist there knows hypnosis and might be good. Well I'm probably being a social skills group in the coming days.

Gawen

October 28, 2006, 09:30 AM

So...are we looking for a name change soon? Perhaps:
1/2 Kabbalist?
ex-excreationist?
SuicidalChristian?
Everythingbut613?
evolutionarycreationist?
TheUnknownComic?

Johnny Skeptic

October 28, 2006, 09:34 AM

I'm not sure if disabled people get much more suicidal than other people.

In the U.S., physician assisted suicide is legal only in Oregon. President Bush failed in his attempt to have the law overturned by the Supreme Court. A good deal of documented research shows that the chief reason that terminally ill people give for requesting PAS is the loss of autonomy. The majority of people in Oregon who request PAS have cancer. The late Vincent Humbert lived in France. He was quadriplegic, blind, and mute. He wanted to die. He asked then President Chirac for an exemption to the French law that prohibits PAS. Chirac refused. An unknown person mercifully killed Humbert at his own request. Is it your position that Humbert should have been forced to go on living?

I don't think the Bible permits that. [Physician assisted suicide]

What is "the Bible"? Do you have any idea how the writings that became the Bible were chosen, whether or not there were disagreements regarding which writings to include in it, and whether or not the originals have been changed?

There is not any credible evidence at all that your good fortune was due to anything more than random chance. The truth is most certainly not just whatever works for a person. If what works for a person is all that matters, then all worldviews that work are equally valid, and the real truth, whatever it is doesn't matter. Are you hoping to one day enjoy a comfortable eternal life? Do you believe that all non-Christians will go to hell? If the God of the Bible exists, do you have any evidence that he is not bi-polar? In your opinion, who or what created Hurricane Katrina and sent it to New Orleans?

.......I don't think faith would make it more likely for me to die.

It would if you were a Muslim and were willing to die for your religious beliefs. In addition, Joan of Arc was not killed in battle, but many other Christians have been killed in battle defending Christianity.

excreationist

October 28, 2006, 06:52 PM

Last night I kept on reading Christian books. Chapter 14 of a "purpose driven life" is "when God seems distant". It talks about David, Job, Jesus on the cross, etc. That reminds me of my father. He thinks he's like Job, being tested by God and he doesn't feel God's spiritual presence. My father isn't a very good Christian sometimes though. Anyway, after a while I was just thinking about that and started to pray. I listed about 10 things I was thankful for, including beautiful girls, and boys - though I'm not really sexually attracted to them or at least I'm in denial. Then I was making some requests and started praying again. Then there was a sudden big gust of wind. And I personally like the sound of wind at nighttime (and rain too). I started having talking to God in my head and when I didn't expect it the wind would suddenly make a noise as if to say "that's right" in certain statements. But when I was expecting it it didn't happen. This went on for 10-20 little exchanges. I also felt an uncomfortable feeling in my throat at key times, as if to say "I shouldn't say that". It all happened so often that I couldn't really deny it was God at the time. I said "good night God" and no reply "good night Jesus" - and there was a big gust of wind. Otherwise the wind was quiet. A bit later on there was a bit of wind but it was a long gust of wind and my system wasn't working any more. In the morning I thought I was sick of God I mean I don't feel like thinking about him so much. I guess I'm taking the relationship for granted - and I should probably capitalize the Him. Maybe.

....The late Vincent Humbert lived in France. He was quadriplegic, blind, and mute. He wanted to die. He asked then President Chirac for an exemption to the French law that prohibits PAS. Chirac refused. An unknown person mercifully killed Humbert at his own request. Is it your position that Humbert should have been forced to go on living?
Well first I'd consider suicide in the bible...
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sui_bibl.htm
it says "The authors do not interpret these acts as sinful. They seem to be regarded simply as straightforward personal decisions. However, the Christian church has traditionally deviated from the biblical message and has considered suicide to be a great moral sin."
I think I'm more interested in being moral myself and not judging my neighbour. Romans 13 says to follow the laws (assuming they aren't immoral) so if I was involved in French law enforcement I'd probably try and keep Humbert alive unless it became clear from God that PAS is ok.

What is "the Bible"? Do you have any idea how the writings that became the Bible were chosen, whether or not there were disagreements regarding which writings to include in it, and whether or not the originals have been changed?
I don't really care.... since that would undermine my faith. BTW, I am going back on my statement that the Bible doesn't really permit suicide.

There is not any credible evidence at all that your good fortune was due to anything more than random chance. The truth is most certainly not just whatever works for a person. If what works for a person is all that matters, then all worldviews that work are equally valid, and the real truth, whatever it is doesn't matter.
I'm not sure I could be sure whether something is the real truth or not though I guess I could know whether something is closer or further from the truth.

"Are you hoping to one day enjoy a comfortable eternal life?"
I'm not really thinking of the afterlife (influenced by kabbalah)

"Do you believe that all non-Christians will go to hell?"
Maybe the ones who weren't good enough and there might be levels of punishment in hell. I'm not sure.

"If the God of the Bible exists, do you have any evidence that he is not bi-polar?"
Bipolar people are depressed half the time... well I guess that could explain his absence. And when manic they get very frantic - that could explain why God works in the Bible in short bursts. I should probably be more reverent.

"In your opinion, who or what created Hurricane Katrina and sent it to New Orleans?"
God I guess. It would be part of the curse and to remind people not to be too attached to God and be more dependent on him.

"It would if you were a Muslim and were willing to die for your religious beliefs."
Death by a bomb isn't such a bad way to die I think. Though death in an American camp wouldn't be good.

"In addition, Joan of Arc was not killed in battle, but many other Christians have been killed in battle defending Christianity."
I'm not willing to endure much torture and remain a Christian. And I'm hesistant about going into a war. I think the NT can be interpreted that Christians should avoid participating in wars.

Gawen:
I'd probably change it to JohnClay... the names John and Clay have personality profiles I like at kabalarians.com I don't really believe in the accuracy of numerology any more.

JamesBannon

October 28, 2006, 07:45 PM

pros
a purpose for living
it's pretty interesting (I haven't read most of the Bible properly)
it's a way of reliving primary school/high school times
it has commands that I can pick and choose from - at the moment relatives and psychiatric staff have made it too easy to choose learned helplessness.
there's God to pray to
and also all of my relatives and most of their friends are Christians. (my sisters are pentecostal and others are Lutheran)
Its insistance to be humble could be quite helpful for me. Just before, my mum said I need to prepare some strawberries - and cut off the overripe parts. I couldn't really stand doing it at all and gave up after less than a minute and she did the rest. I feel like I should be entitled to far more power and control than I already have. I'd like to control everything - then maybe set little challenges for myself though I'd probably get bored after a while - life might feel empty if the challenges aren't genuine.
I wonder why it is that people buy the lie that religion provides purpose? It does not, at least no more than any other form of belief. Besides, none of these are especially good reasons for believing in Christianity.

excreationist

October 28, 2006, 08:22 PM

I thought page about cognitive dissonace was interesting:
http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/dissonance.htm

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation....

....dissonance can go "over the top", leading to two interesting side-effects for learning:

if someone is called upon to learn something which contradicts what they already think they know — particularly if they are committed to that prior knowledge — they are likely to resist the new learning....

and—counter-intuitively, perhaps—if learning something has been difficult, uncomfortable, or even humiliating enough, people are less likely to concede that the content of what has been learned is useless, pointless or valueless. To do so would be to admit that one has been "had", or "conned".

LoungeHead

October 29, 2006, 02:01 AM

But maybe I just want to give up the struggle and end it all... That would be the depression talking which may only be temporary but I'd think I'm sick of it and just want an escape.
It is the depression talking.
I'll see if there are any other therapists I could use too...
Its worth it. Do you feel like you're making progress with your current therapist?
He is pointing out why I'm not getting my desires or needs met.
Ultimately, only you know those things. I do not see how even the most closest person in our lives could completely comprehend our experiences. Yes, they can empathise, and even perceive what it might be like to be in your shoes. But ultimately you know the answers to your own problems, and the best thing a therapist can do is assist you in finding the answers.
I have a lot of fears when dealing with other people.
So do I. I have phobia's about using telephones. Partly, why I am so prolific on the internet. :)
BTW I forgot to mention that I've never gotten a date in my life partly due to rejecting offers I didn't quite like and being scared and being turned down and being led on for to long by girls who didn't want to hurt my feelings.
That's nothing unusual.
So I occassionally go to legal brothels - and my 2 friends aren't happy at all about that.
A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. What do the lady's at the brothel think of you visiting them? They're a bit more important to your sexual relations, than your friends.
My psychiatrist tells me the quote "when you get to my age, it's the things you didn't do you regret" - he is trying to inspire me to go outside of my comfort zone, but I don't want to really.
Your psychiatrist is correct about regret. But I think he is wrong in his approach to your recovery. My therapist never tried to inspire me to do anything. She did encourage and support decisions I made, but was pragmatic in her approach.

You shouldn't really be going outside your comfort zone until you're ready. Otherwise it could be more disasterous than anything. You should probably stick with your psychiatrist for assessment, diagnostic and prescription of medical treatment, but you might want to go to a psycho-therapist for the therapy. Maybe tell your psychiatrist you'd like to try some therapy with someone else, to see if it would make any difference. Really, you need to take charge of your own recovery. You're the only one who can heal yourself.

What can I learn about myself?
So much! :eek:

Where your behaviours have come from? Why and how things in your life come to represent what they do?
Having a purpose or direction is a way of driving me through life rather than living a day to day existence unsure of my future. In the past whenever I was happy I had direction in life.
In my opinion, you need to be taking things day-by-day. You need direction, but not massive goals. I hope you realise, you do have one advantage of being in the state of mind that you are in. Your artistic expression is unique to your eccentricity.
I think I can avoid mania.... I just have to make sure I get enough sleep.
Good. Do that.
But my depression keeps coming back and it is in response to things like my social problems so no wonder it keeps on coming back.
The best advice I can offer here, is join a volunteer community group that appeals to your interests. Tell them you want to help out. Tell them what you can do, which might not be much. Maybe do very basic tasks. It will get you socially involved and give you direction. And performing the actual tasks you are given will take your mind of the social anxiety. I found my greatest social fears came when I was with a group of people and idle. I never knew what to do with myself. But when you're part of a volunteer group there are usually things to do. So you can stay active even if to avoid others, yet in a socially progressive way, which is rewarding when people value you for what you do.
Maybe the reason I avoided parties, camps, excursions, etc, was because I have a mum who worries a lot and that anxiety about unfamiliar situations was transferred onto me. Or I just didn't like not being in control. That's more like it... In most places I could just escape or fade into the background rather than feel overwhelmed... but not at those things I avoided.
Possibly. That is the sort of things you need to discuss with a psycho-therapist. Find out if that is the case or if it is because you lack certain social skills, which the therapist can help you develop.

steamer

October 29, 2006, 02:43 AM

Last night I kept on reading Christian books. Chapter 14 of a "purpose driven life" is "when God seems distant".

Yeah, god seems awfully imaginary.

It talks about David, Job, Jesus on the cross, etc. That reminds me of my father. He thinks he's like Job, being tested by God and he doesn't feel God's spiritual presence.

Does you father seem to be kinda a twit to you too?

My father isn't a very good Christian sometimes though. Anyway, after a while I was just thinking about that and started to pray.

So when you pray do you just talk or do you send messages telepathically?

I listed about 10 things I was thankful for, including beautiful girls, and boys - though I'm not really sexually attracted to them or at least I'm in denial.

Your in denial.

Then I was making some requests and started praying again.

Quit fucking praying and start dialing. I feel like I'm talking to a dead man. Too stupid or too crazy to do the one thing that might help him. CAll 911, tell them you are 5150. You feel as if you may be a danger to yuorself or someone else. Please, just do it now.

Then there was a sudden big gust of wind.

That was either god or one of his spokespeople. Usually they amount to big gusts of wind.

And I personally like the sound of wind at nighttime (and rain too). I started having talking to God in my head and when I didn't expect it the wind would suddenly make a noise as if to say "that's right" in certain statements.

I hope the statemnets were. Do I need to get back on my meds?

But when I was expecting it it didn't happen. This went on for 10-20 little exchanges. I also felt an uncomfortable feeling in my throat at key times, as if to say "I shouldn't say that". It all happened so often that I couldn't really deny it was God at the time.

Nor could you deny it was the great pumkin. How old are you by the way? 16 or 17? I was rather bizarre at that ae myself.

I said "good night God" and no reply "good night Jesus" - and there was a big gust of wind.

Yup, no chance at all it was just the wind...It was Jebus wind.

Otherwise the wind was quiet. A bit later on there was a bit of wind but it was a long gust of wind and my system wasn't working any more. In the morning I thought I was sick of God I mean I don't feel like thinking about him so much. I guess I'm taking the relationship for granted - and I should probably capitalize the Him. Maybe.

If pretending the wind is talking to you solves your problems, then you have no problems. I think you do though. What is it that you think life owes you?

Well first I'd consider suicide in the bible...

Fuck the bible. You think you're in sad mental condition...the bible stories are completely nuts.

it says "The authors do not interpret these acts as sinful. They seem to be regarded simply as straightforward personal decisions. However, the Christian church has traditionally deviated from the biblical message and has considered suicide to be a great moral sin."

I've considered suicide before and I've always been comforted that even the simplest pleasures are better than non-existence. Can you still appreciate the warmth of sunshine on your face or the smile of a baby?

I think I'm more interested in being moral myself and not judging my neighbour. Romans 13 says to follow the laws (assuming they aren't immoral) so if I was involved in French law enforcement I'd probably try and keep Humbert alive unless it became clear from God that PAS is ok.

Umm, Put the fucking evil book down and back away from it slowly. Sane people can't tolerate too much of it and you shouldn't be tolerating any of it. Call your mother or any one in your family and tell them you need to be doing the Haldol shuffle for a couple weeks. Listen to me..I'm not the wind...I AM GOD...GET THEE TO A MENTAL HEALTH CARE FACILITY.

I don't really care.... since that would undermine my faith. BTW, I am going back on my statement that the Bible doesn't really permit suicide.

FUCK FAITH. You've been pretending too much lately. Dial 911 now and tell them you are a 5150, a danger to yourself and others. DO it now. Jesus told me to tell you this.

I'm not sure I could be sure whether something is the real truth or not though I guess I could know whether something is closer or further from the truth.

You wouldn't know at this point and you don't know. Why don't you make that call I suggessted? Please make that call.

"Are you hoping to one day enjoy a comfortable eternal life?"
I'm not really thinking of the afterlife (influenced by kabbalah)

Good because it is pretend.

"Do you believe that all non-Christians will go to hell?"
Maybe the ones who weren't good enough and there might be levels of punishment in hell. I'm not sure.

No one is, because its bullshit that people made up.

"If the God of the Bible exists, do you have any evidence that he is not bi-polar?"
Bipolar people are depressed half the time... well I guess that could explain his absence. And when manic they get very frantic - that could explain why God works in the Bible in short bursts. I should probably be more reverent.

No, you should be more honest. The god descibed in the bible is a fruitcake.

"In your opinion, who or what created Hurricane Katrina and sent it to New Orleans?"
God I guess. It would be part of the curse and to remind people not to be too attached to God and be more dependent on him.

You may be crazy, but are you also stupid? Listen wingnut, call someone. DO it now. You need help.

excreationist

October 29, 2006, 05:41 AM

steamer:
You make it very hard to keep the faith. BTW, I guess I'm in denial about my bisexuality. I guess I'll just feel guilty about those thoughts.

That's nothing unusual.
Yes it is. By the age of almost 28 most people have been on a date (or done some other romantic activity such as flirt).

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. What do the lady's at the brothel think of you visiting them? They're a bit more important to your sexual relations, than your friends.
Maybe they think I'm sad - if they knew my life story. And they might think I could get a girlfriend if I really tried.

Your psychiatrist is correct about regret. But I think he is wrong in his approach to your recovery. My therapist never tried to inspire me to do anything. She did encourage and support decisions I made, but was pragmatic in her approach.
But the aim of my stay in the place I'm at is to learn social skills - and I normally offer lots of resistance.

You shouldn't really be going outside your comfort zone until you're ready. Otherwise it could be more disasterous than anything.
By step outside my comfort zone I mean like talk to the other residents or even people I know quite well before they talk to me, etc.

"What can I learn about myself?"
So much! :eek:

Where your behaviours have come from? Why and how things in your life come to represent what they do?
Well I keep on avoiding legitimate problems. And the psychiatrist in "The Road Less Travelled" says that doing that too much leads to mental illness. He says the way to solve life's problems is through love and balancing and discipline but I haven't used those things for many years. I think I really like to be in control. I feel like I'm entitled to it and feel like I have to escape if I can't have it. It has just become a habit - that I've reinforced tonight when I went to church and had to escape soon afterwards when the people started talking.

In my opinion, you need to be taking things day-by-day. You need direction, but not massive goals. I hope you realise, you do have one advantage of being in the state of mind that you are in. Your artistic expression is unique to your eccentricity.
So should I encourage my eccentricity?

The best advice I can offer here, is join a volunteer community group that appeals to your interests.
I'll see what I can do.

Evoken

October 29, 2006, 06:41 AM

Maybe God deliberately made evolution and the creation story to make sure faith was needed. The New Testament talks a lot about how important faith is.

Yeah, faith without evidence or even when contrary evidence exists is seen as a virtue in Christianity. Personally I think it is more of a cop out to overlook the problems. Anyone who sees and points out the problem is seen as having little faith.

The bible talks a lot about the fact that the creation declares the glory of God and also gives us a description of how and what world the God of the bible created. That world is quite simply not the one we live in. There is nothing like Evolution in the bible, or any other creation story for that matter. There is also no mention of galaxies, big bangs, it has the sun and moon being small starts that orbit around the earth, the earth does not moves, it has water in the heavens and windows that open when it rains, etc.

The story in Genesis was believed as factual and taken literally by everyone in the bible, including Jesus, who is God. It was also believed as factual and taken literally for more than 1000 years after Nicea, and maybe even for more than that. It was not until science began contradicting the bible that the different denominations admitted a more figurative interpretation of the text.

Evo

Johnny Skeptic

October 29, 2006, 08:37 AM

I'm not sure I could be sure whether something is the real truth or not though I guess I could know whether something is closer or further from the truth.

What are the proper criteria for determining which claims are closest to the truth, possibly your own criteria to the exclusion of the criteria of everyone else who disagrees with your criteria?

Who said anything about being sure? No man can be 100% certain of anything, even his existence. It is a matter of evaluating all of the available evidence that you can find and making your own choice. Following are some reasons why I made my choice to reject the Bible:

I make no apologies for objecting to a God who 1) says that killing people is wrong, but kills some of his most devout and faithful followers with hurricanes, or allows them to be killed with hurricanes, which as far as I and many other people are concerned is exactly the same thing, 2) makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11, 3) punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed, reference Exodus 20:5, 4) ordered the death penalty for a Jew who killed a Jew, but not for a Jew who killed a slave, 5) killed Ananias and Saphira over money, reference the New Testament, 6) could easily have prevented the U.S. Civil War by telling Jefferson Davis, a Christian who was President of the Southern Confederacy, that slavery is wrong, 7) tells people to be merciful, but endorses unmerciful eternal punishment without parole, 8) distributes tangible benefits without any regard whatsoever for a person’s worldview, which gives many people the impression that tangible benefits are distributed entirely at random according to the laws of physics, and 9) refuses to reveal himself to some people who would accept him if they had sufficient evidence to their satisfaction that he exists.

If ANY being other than God committed THE VERY SAME ATROCITIES against mankind that God has committed, most Christians would reject him. If God told lies, most Christians would reject him. How is telling lies any worse than the atrocities that I mentioned?

2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, meaning not even one single person. That is obviously a lie since God could easily provide additional evidence that would cause some people to become Christians who were not previously convinced.

If a being came to earth, claimed to be Jesus, and demonstrated that he had vast powers, as far as I know, since any being might be an imposter, it would be impossible for any being to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is Jesus. If such a being showed up, I would be neutral regarding his claim that he was Jesus, but human nature being what it is, many people would believe his claim, in which case if he was Jesus, some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. From a Christian perspective, wouldn’t that be a good thing? If not, I would certainly like to know why not.

I would ask the being lots of questions about God’s many questionable actions and allowances. If I was satisfied with his answers, and if he agreed to provide me with a comfortable eternal life, I would accept him. I would ask the being lots of questions about God’s many questionable actions and allowances. If I was satisfied with his answers, and if he agreed to provide me with a comfortable eternal life, I would accept him even if I was not reasonably certain who he was. Revelation 21:4 says "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." That is the prize that many if not most Christians are hoping to receive, and I do not blame them. I would want that too, but I couldn't care less who provided it as long as it was available. Neither would most Christians, although they are not aware of it at this time. If a man has cancer, and a cure is available, he most certainly does not care who provides him with the cure. If I was not satisfied with the being's answers, I would not be able to will myself to accept him. If I was not satisfied with his answers, I would not be able to will myself to accept him.

Matthew 14:14 says “And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.” If ANY being came to earth and healed all of the sick people in the world, and prevented natural disasters from occurring, he would be greatly appreciated by everyone. If such a being started a new religion, I assume that it would become the largest religion in history.

Humans quite naturally place great emphasis upon good physical health. No one who has very poor physical health is able to enjoy life, especially if they have untreatable pain. Christian doctors are trying to prevent and cure ALL diseases. Whenever a prevention or a cure for a disease is found, ALL Christians rejoice.

I am not suggesting that humans should not have any problems and obstacles to overcome. No loving human father would try to remove all problems and obstacles from the life of his son. Humans need some difficulties and challenges to deal with so they can develop good character. However, I am not aware of any evidence that you have to seriously injure or kill a man, or allow him to starve to death, in order to help him develop good character.

If the God of the Bible exists, at best, he is bi-polar and mentally incompetent. Even Attila the Hun did not injure and kill some of his most devout and faithful followers, or allow them to be injured and killed. Of course, the best evidence indicates that the God of the Bible does not exist.

Regarding the possibility that God is bi-polar, you said:

Bi-polar people are depressed half the time... well I guess that could explain his absence. And when manic they get very frantic - that could explain why God works in the Bible in short bursts. I should probably be more reverent.

I would appreciate more of an explanation than that. If God exists, if he is bi-polar, how would he act any differently than he acts now? If God is bi-polar, then he is not a rational, trustworthy being, and should not be trusted.

"Are you hoping to one day enjoy a comfortable eternal life?" I'm not really thinking of the afterlife (influenced by kabbalah)

Jesus, Paul, and Peter sure did. I can quote lots of their comments about the afterlife if you wish. The pleasures of this life are quite brief. In addition, many suffering, terminally ill people consider death to be much more preferable than life.

The best conclusion is that the God of the Bible does not exist. The second best conclusion is that if he does exist, no rational minded and fair minded man is able to will himself to accept him.

Johnny Skeptic

October 29, 2006, 08:59 AM

Maybe God deliberately made evolution and the creation story to make sure faith was needed. The New Testament talks a lot about how important faith is.

Requiring faith is in fact an excellent way to LIMIT the number of people who accept a religion. In addition, if you make up a religion, it is a given that you MUST require faith since you can never back up what you claim.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders. (NIV)

Johnny: It is interesting to note that Acts 14:3 refers to events that took place AFTER the Holy Spirit came to the church. Now why do you suppose that after all of the preceding evidence, INCLUDING the presence of the Holy Sprit, that God felt the need to provide even more tangible confirmations, only to leave us with precious few tangible confirmations today, including no surviving eyewitnesses?

Now will you please tell us what any of the Scriptures that I mentioned have to do with faith? Please reply to my post #75.

Johnny Skeptic

October 29, 2006, 09:09 AM

Message to excreationist: If you used to be a Christian and gave up Christianity, according to the Bible, you cannot become a Christian again. Hebrews 6:4-7 say "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (NIV)

Although many Christians dispute what I said, there is further proof that I am right. Matthew 7:21-23 say "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Now Jesus had to have been speaking to Christians because in Matthew 12:26 and Mark 3:23 he said that Satan cannot cast out Satan, meaning that only believers can cast out Satan.

xaxxat

October 29, 2006, 09:28 AM

excreationist, my experience is that unless one's depression is biological, it's most likely caused by HURT. A simple rule is that hurt = depression, loss = anxiety.

There are methods to deal with the root cause of those feelings. Cognitive Behavior Therapy is quite effective in teaching one how to deal with the thoughts that cause pain. It's bit clinical, but it's a great tool to have handy when hurtful thoughts start to flood in. David D. Burns' Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy book is a good place to start.

"The Work" by Byron Katie is also quite effective. It's a series of 4 questions that gets to the root of painful feelings and reduces them to manageable levels. It is elegant in it's simplicity. It's also very Zenlike, which might appeal to you. Lots of her tapes/videos are put out free and are easy to find using the usual file sharing programs.

The 4 questions are:

1. Is it true?
2. Can you absolutely know that it's true?
3. How do you react when you believe that thought?
4. Who would you be without the thought?

Her website: http://www.thework.com/index.asp

Making yourself feel better is something that YOU are going to have to work on. Flittering from one religious scheme to another will only keep you confused. It's your effort that will save you, not the help of some imaginary being that never comes.

I know, I've been through it myself. Now that I know how it works and how to work it, it all seems quite silly that I ever felt depression/anxiety in the first place...

HelenM

October 29, 2006, 09:33 AM

excreationist, please be careful about your health - if you want to believe that's fine with me but please don't stay up all night if you are Bipolar. Bipolar people really need to be protective of their sleep.

Helen

sensate

October 29, 2006, 10:50 AM

Well, if you are going to kill yourself I would rather you do it as a Christian than an atheist. Makes us look bad.

But seriously, please don't kill yourself. Things will get better. Chin up.

EthnAlln

October 29, 2006, 01:33 PM

I am not catholic, but to hear people from my church, the holy ghost is The holy bible itself. So to say the bible isnt true is the unforgivable blasphemy.

Oh dear, that's a new (and terrible) view of a passage in the Gospels best forgotten. (Well, a lot of the Gospels are best forgotten, but I will admit that there's a lot of good stuff there as well.)

I have that deep dark feeling I am going to burn. But to not bother to try and save myself because I "think" I may be damned, is no different than not bothering to save myself because I don't believe in damnation. I am still to this day not sure what I believe deep down; Except that there's more to me than the shell I inhabit.

This passage seems to indicate a morbid sense of sin, such as one encounters in the autobiographies of Saint Augustine and Mahatma ("Big-Soul") Gandhi. These guys both had their virtues, but they injected an admixture of really pernicious pessimism about human beings. If I were going to choose a god to believe in, it would be the one my wife believes in, full of love and forgiveness, not a petty one that would torture a person forever for not kissing his ass.

excreationist

October 31, 2006, 03:47 AM

Well I've pretty much given up being a Christian.
I've become really suicidal though... my method would involve a quilt and suffocation. Well I'll probably hang in there...

JamesBannon

October 31, 2006, 04:17 AM

excreationist - seriously get some treatment, suicidal thoughts are a sign that the disorder is becoming life threatening.

Barbarian

October 31, 2006, 05:09 AM

I've become really suicidal though... my method would involve a quilt and suffocation. Well I'll probably hang in there...
I'd say get professional help, but enough people did that before me to make me believe it ain't gonna happen. Besides, I went once through a phase slightly like yours, except for the involvement of religion at that time, and I did not want professional help either in those months - it felt like having to resort to external help would have been an even bigger failure than just giving up life. That was twenty years ago, BTW, and I am still here.

One thing to consider is that if you can muster the courage to die, you could as well keep on living just to find out what happens next. You are free to live exactly because life and death no longer seem to matter to you.

Past failures and present depression would be of little impact if it wasn't for our unfortunate capability to imagine that all or most of the rest of our life will be similarly dark and low. That's what kills people via suicide, all the more tragic because this perspective is just plain wrong. No individual moments of even a terrible life are themselves bad except those when you contemplate the rest of your life to be full of suffering.

Most people - probably you too - have a very deep convinction that a purpose in life is absolutely necessary. This forces them into identifying one and pursuing it with desperation, all the while fighting with the nagging feeling that doing so is just not the right thing. In addition, having a set purpose gives you something to fail at, to feel inadequate to achieve, even if the purpose itself was artificial and unnecessary.

There's no point in fighting against the internal urge to have a purpose - successfully fighting it becomes another artificial purpose, something to fail at. But if you just observe this urge, you'll get to see into it and it will eventually go away because it is so unnatural that it really cannot stand up to detached observation. At that point other, internally generated, more natural and personalized purposes will spring to life, and they will be more and more your natural purposes. Follow them if you feel so inclined. It is also OK if you run out of them, because there is no need for them either. The need for a purpose in life is a desire acquired by the mechanism in us looking for models to imitate; a child could think something like: other people seem to be worried about their purpose in life, so even if I don't get it, it must be something important. But there is really nothing wrong with just living instead of living for something or for some reason, or just because you are looking forward to something.

Johnny Skeptic

October 31, 2006, 10:39 AM

Well I've pretty much given up being a Christian. I've become really suicidal though... my method would involve a quilt and suffocation. Well I'll probably hang in there...

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you some questions in the hope that I can help you. Why do you want to commit suicide? Do you have relatively good physical health? Do you feel loved and appreciated? What is your age? How old were you when you first wanted to commit suicide? Do you like music? If so, which kinds?

Did you see a movie that is titled 'A beautiful mind'? If not, I suggest that you rent the DVD. The movie is a remarkable true story about a brilliant scientist who used his logic to overcome some serious mental problems. You might be able to use your logic to overcome some of your mental problems too.

There is an herb called St. John's wort that is an excellent natural control for mood disorders. It might help you. It is available without a prescription, and for most people, it does not have any side effects like prescriptions drugs do. There are other natural products that help control mood. You can read about some of them, and about St. John's wort, at http://life.familyeducation.com/mental-health/social/emotional/35986.html. I look forward to your reply. Hang in there.

excreationist

November 1, 2006, 01:58 AM

I'd say get professional help, but enough people did that before me to make me believe it ain't gonna happen.
I have gotten professional help.... they have helped stop me suffocating myself for the past two nights.

One thing to consider is that if you can muster the courage to die, you could as well keep on living just to find out what happens next. You are free to live exactly because life and death no longer seem to matter to you.
Yeah....

....Most people - probably you too - have a very deep convinction that a purpose in life is absolutely necessary.
I'm looking for direction and purpose... a kind that can inspire me not just a list of "shoulds".

.....But there is really nothing wrong with just living instead of living for something or for some reason, or just because you are looking forward to something.
Yeah I'd like something to look forward to....

excreationist

November 1, 2006, 02:05 AM

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you some questions in the hope that I can help you. Why do you want to commit suicide?
Partly it has become an obsession - something that I think about while I'm avoiding the other people I live with. I have a great lack of social skills and skills with romance (never been on dates or flirted, etc) and I think it would be painful to acquire those skills. Things could be a lot worse but I'm just not happy with things.

Do you have relatively good physical health?
Yes.

Do you feel loved and appreciated?
Loved at least, by my parents and some of the staff where I live. I fell appreciated sometimes.

What is your age?
Almost 28.

How old were you when you first wanted to commit suicide?
Maybe 19 or 20.

Do you like music? If so, which kinds?
I like 80's, disco, pop, dance, etc.

Did you see a movie that is titled 'A beautiful mind'? If not, I suggest that you rent the DVD. The movie is a remarkable true story about a brilliant scientist who used his logic to overcome some serious mental problems. You might be able to use your logic to overcome some of your mental problems too.
I've seen it.

There is an herb called St. John's wort that is an excellent natural control for mood disorders. It might help you. It is available without a prescription, and for most people, it does not have any side effects like prescriptions drugs do. There are other natural products that help control mood. You can read about some of them, and about St. John's wort, at http://life.familyeducation.com/mental-health/social/emotional/35986.html. I look forward to your reply. Hang in there.
I'm taking zoloft at the moment. They might increase my dose in the near future (it used to be 150mg, and I'm on 100mg at the moment after coming off of another anti-depressant).