I need some good starting points on learning about the Bible

[militant agnostic]

I know this may seem like an enormously large request, but...

I need to become educated to a level of knowledge about the Bible, its history, and the reasons why people like most of the regular posters on this forum reject it as being historically true that the people on this site have.

Most importantly I want to know the arguments that apologists use and why there wrong.

I am not asking for you to post a thousand page essay on these subjects. What I am really looking for is a good laundry list of books, online articles, and forum posts that you have read or written that can help me know and understand the basic things that I am not knowledgeable about like the figures in the Bible, the history of its books, and the places they took place in.

Keep in mind that I am not completely ignorant of these matters. I have been a regular reader on this forum for nearly three years. I am in the somewhat odd position of having spent a great deal of time listing in on the debates and discussions of higher criticism and historical investigation of the Bible and even being able to have begun understanding much of it. Yet, at the same time I have not even had the benefit of having gone to Sunday school.

I appreciate all the intellectual growth I have gone through in these past few years by reading your posts and the writings of the authors you have brought to my attention. I have a far more complete grasp of how the world works and how people think thanks to all the controversies and debates I have read here.

Thank you.

[NatSciNarg]

A good start might be to read through the sticky thread, 'Some basic questions' at the top of this forum.
Best wishes,
Matthew

[robto]

My recommendation would be John Dominic Crossan's The Birth of Christianity. Crossan is better than most at explaining his assumptions and addressing why we can't just take the Gospels as history. This isn't easy reading, but it's well worth the investment of time and effort.

[Tsuyoiko]

The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine is an absolute must-read.

[Tigers!]

Many on this forum would recommend that the source documents should be read. I agree - make sure you read the Bible too. Don't just take anymore's word on what it said (or rather what they claim it says).:wave:

[Malachi151]

I, for one, am going to be leading a Bible study starting in January, and I'm thinking about putting up our info on-line as well so that it can be both an in person Bible study and an on-line one.

You can e-mail/pm me if you are interested in me keeping you informed on this. I'll probably also post something about it here when it gets closer to time.

For starters, though, just start reading a Bible. You can do this on-line for free. I use Biblegateway because its nice and easy, but they use NIV which is considered a poor translation by scholars, but its good enough IMO, and its also the most popular translation in America so there is value there.

I also recommend:

The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings

If you want to buy a Bible, I recommend a Study Bible, probably either the Oxford study Bible or the Harpers Study Bible, both are under $30.

Also, of course, I recommend my own presentation on this subject :p

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/origins_of_christianity.htm

[hatsoff]

The first book I read on the subject was probably Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History of the Church. This was back when I was still Christian, and my Pastor had lent to me a paperback copy. It's a surprisingly fluid book, to tell you the truth. I highly recommend it (or at least the first half of it) to anyone interested in the early history of Christianity. The entire book is floating around somewhere on the net.

other online resources:
Earlychristianwritings.com (the quintessential reference site for the New Testament works)
Religion-online.com (a few complete introductory texts freely available)
Bible.org (some Christian-flavored articles by seasoned professionals)
Ntcanon.org (nice reference resource)

[Dean Anderson]

Many on this forum would recommend that the source documents should be read. I agree - make sure you read the Bible too. Don't just take anymore's word on what it said (or rather what they claim it says).:wave:

That includes, of course, and not taking the word of Christians about what they claim it says and how they claim it should be interpreted either...

[douglas]

I know this may seem like an enormously large request, but...

I agree with everything else that's already been said. I'm in the same position as you are, and would recommend that you narrow your scope a bit. Start with something that interests you (ie. New Testament Gospels, Abraham, Moses, The crucifixion of jesus, etc.) and focus on that. Read the bible regarding that topic, then read stuff that has been written about that topic. The bible is just to daggone big and confusing unless I bit it off one morsel at a time.

As an armchair bible explorer, here are some entry level books that I've appreciated:

Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus"
Randall Helm's "Gospel Fictions"
Margaret Nutting Ralph's "And God said What?"

The last one is written by a Catholic theist who doesn't believe in the inerrancy of the bible, so it has an interesting slant.

And I would agree with you about the value of this forum. I learn something new every time I visit.

[militant agnostic]

I really appreciate eveyone's help. I think I will start by looking at the site you made Malachi151. I will go for the The Birth of Christianity book by Crossan as well.

I will try to get to as much of the stuff I have read here as I can.

[WishboneDawn]

I, for one, am going to be leading a Bible study starting in January, and I'm thinking about putting up our info on-line as well so that it can be both an in person Bible study and an on-line one.

Are christians welcome Malachi? I keep hearing you talk about this and it sounds interesting.

[gregor]

Militant -

While Crossan's great, and read TBoC, realize that it's written in partial rebuttal to a number of existing works and positions of the likes of Luke T Johnson, NT Wright, the Jesus Seminar, William Lane Craig, and a host of others. It's like arriving in at the start of the third act of a play without having seen the first two acts.

I'd caution a start with Helms, then Ehrman, then Crossan.

[Malachi151]

Are christians welcome Malachi? I keep hearing you talk about this and it sounds interesting.

We don't have the details worked out yet as to where we will be doing this, and it depends on that somewhat. I mean I wouldn't turn them away unless they started being a problem, the issue is whether any will even be aware of it.

Depending on where we have it, they might be. We may have it at a UU, and we may have it at a progressive coffee shop where other such groups meet, and we may have it at someone's home.

If we have it at UU, some will probably come, if we have ti at the coffee shop, it depends on if they let us put of fliers, if we have ti at a home, I doubt any would be aware of it or come.

Here is the overview so far:

Atheist-led Bible Study Outline

1.Introduction
a)Overview of Bible translations
b)Overview of the Bible structure
c)Overview of Bible related history
d)Recommendations for further reading
2.New Testament
a) Thessalonian
b) 1 Corinthians
c) Galatians
d) Romans
e) Matthew
f) Acts
g) Revelation
h) John
i) 2 John
j) 2 Peter
3.Old Testament
a)Pentateuch
Genesis 1 – 9
Exodus 1 – 14, 19 – 21, 32-34
Deuteronomy 6 – 10, 13, 20, 28, 31 – 34
b)Historical Books
Joshua 1, 5 – 10, 13
Ruth 1 – 4
Deuterocanonical
1 Maccabees
c)Wisdom Books
Job (read as far as you can, then skip to the end)
Psalms 2, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 22, 23, 34, 43, 44, 58, 69, 104, 109, 110, 137
Ecclesiastes
d)Prophets
Isaiah (esp 7, 52 – 53)
Daniel (esp 7 – 9)
Ezekiel (esp 25 – 29)
Malachi

Any suggestions are also welcome BTW.

[Ruhan]

There are some great books recommended by some of the posters thus far.

I have compiled an overview overview of the arguments contained in these sources on my site:

http://www.atheistoolbox.com/fcbible.php

Regards,

Ruhan

[WishboneDawn]

We don't have the details worked out yet as to where we will be doing this, and it depends on that somewhat. I mean I wouldn't turn them away unless they started being a problem, the issue is whether any will even be aware of it.

Consider me interested if you do this online (I don't think I could do the commute :)). Looking at it it from a perspective that doesn't assume faith would be cool.

[yalla]

How entrenched are your existing prejudices?

I don't mean that rudely but to point out that even before we start a study of this topic we have been prejudiced by the common assumptions, myths and fallacies of the Christian culture of our society.
For example can you name the 4 canonical gospels?






Now when I asked that question I suspect, if you knew the answer, you said, in your head "Matthew, Mark, Luke and John".
In that order.
But a fair chunk of NT criticism claims:
1. Those are not the names of the gospel authors.
2. That's not the chronological sequence.
So if you start studying with those presumptions [MMLJ] your learning is already directed along a particular "line" which can create a mindset that then has to be consciously broken.
And that is hard.
Another example.
If you read the gospels first [as per the sequence in the Bible], and read books on them, then you will be introduced into the assumption that a historical Jesus existed as per the gospels stories. If you then went to read the Pauline stuff forming an unprejudiced opinion of whether Paul had a real live HJ in mind becomes difficult to conceive, you are already seeing the Pauline material through "gospel coloured glasses".
I like Malachi's approach above but would suggest that perhaps an overview of the Tanakh/OT, before tackling the NT, might be appropriate.
And I would suggest that reading the primary material first before reading any critical and interpretive books might help you form an opinion before the propagandists and apologists get their claws into you.
What I mean is begin to know the raw material before others lead you down the paths of their particular interpretations.
I suspect you would then be better equipped to recognize those paths and not, in some cases at least, have to try to "unlearn" them later.

I started this stuff about 6 years ago from scratch and I wish I had done it in a more organized manner than what turned out to be, and still is, a haphazard approach.
Anyway good reading.
cheers
yalla