why mankind needs religion (for now)

[Vivo]

Here's something I often think - "Why is it taking (will it take) so much time for mankind to conquer religions?" when so many other past untruths have already been conquered: abiogenesis (rofl), world being flat, world being center of the Universe; and ignorances/prejudices: witchcraft (lol), slavery, woman's rights, and, presently, the rights of homosexuals. These all to name a few.

I have an idea why. Let me explain:

Today, I attended a funeral. It was rural, small, and for my ex-farmer eighty-year-old neighbor. There were maybe twenty people in attendance, none of whom, myself and a few others excepted, were younger than fifty. I know this kind of people; I've been around them my entire life. Old, worker class, untroublesome people. They're lives are, frankly, uncomplicated, revolving around Jesus, their next meal, and kin. Their only solace at this function is the reassurance their deceased continues on, as well as they will. Forgive my ingenuousness, but it is required to stress the point, which follows: without religion, these people's morale would shatter. They'd have no will to go on. It is their ultimate security, believing in an afterlife. Believing they've bought (such a horrible way to live life thinking), or guaranteed their paradise. Without this belief, they may find they have nothing to live for.

I, who am an atheist, am without this belief, but still find much to live for. I think the problem is fear. They are so afraid of what anything "else" could be like, they refuse to question. And truly, it can be scary, realizing your impermanence, knowing your soul is your brain. This very thought can frighten people to the core - and it should. It should because it is the truth! And the truth is always frightening.

This is what I believe; that fear traps people into religions. Look at Christianity's technique, the whole fire and brimstone bit. If you're raised from birth being taught the whole "follow the bible or burn forever," then you tend to be trapped for the rest of your life. I will say, though, that some escape, like me, though god knows how (hehehe pun).

I believe, too, that mankind will overcome this fear eventually. Look at how many atheists there are in the world now! It will just take time, and a massive change of thinking philosophically. Living for life's sake, not for selling yourself out for a supposed afterlife. Not wasting your time, nor making anyone else's more difficult. Empathy, perhaps our greatest emotion, can be our greatest guide if we let it.

I just think that the current stage of thinking/evolution for the most part of humanity simply can't handle the truth. Say, tomorrow, some magnificent new evidence was uncovered that completely disproved all religions without a doubt (not to say it hasn't happened freaken eighty times already), what do you think would happen? Try a total goddamn collapse of society. Seriously. Religion is faceted into every obscurity of human life.

We, not us few here, but mankind as a whole, need religion for the moment. We need it until we all possess both the ability to realize its falsehood, and the courage to accept our impermanence. Only with both can we overcome religions. This is what I believe, at least. I would appreciate your guys' comments or opinions.

[Chris Porter]

This looks like the opening of a thread on the usefulness of religion, atheism, and the need for some structure and hope. The best forum for this would be General Religious Discussions, and so I'll move this post to a place where more people like to discuss these things in particular.

[LukeS]

Here's something I often think - "Why is it taking (will it take) so much time for mankind to conquer religions?" when so many other past untruths have already been conquered: abiogenesis (rofl)...
and ignorances/prejudices: witchcraft (lol), slavery, woman's rights, and, presently, the rights of homosexuals.

Abiogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis) is the current scientific model for the origin of life - life came from non-living matter.
Many muslims still believe in witchcraft (http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?p=308326), and it is practiced in Africa (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4705201.stm).
Womens rights are not guaranteed in the Islamic states or areas, especially the more extreme ones like taliban niches in afghanistan. Slavery is still practiced in Mauritania (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4091579.stm). Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam, and as you'll know there's a set of movements trying and reestablish the khalifate with shar'ia law. In Saudi Arabia the punishment for homosexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Gay_rights_and_AIDS)varies from imprisonment to lashes or even death.
Last year in the UK African and Asian Christians were in the spotlight following reports of child sacrifice ceremonies in churches (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-19328071-details/'Child+sacrifices+in+London'/article.do;jsessionid=zCzpFq4XBsjc1hJpwftyBFV2Rp6m8V4vsSp0FpmmmwfG835PJWnY!950324667). This (http://www.ralliance.org/HateCrime2004.html) is one of the many links I could refer you to on anti- gay hate crime.

Perhaps many of tthe untruths have been conquered on IIDB, or in your family or even by your national legislative body, but don't be fooled into thinking that the issues are history once and for all.

As for religion I'v been deeply religious in the past and although one part of the brain told me I was becoming more and more irrational by accepting this or that alleged miracle or barm pot rule as truth, another part simply refused to listen and I ended up marching on. I have often quoted this research (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009379)when it comes to people holding on to their faith in the light of contrary evidence. Why do they do it. Perhaps as you mention fear of the opposite, like a form of ego defense.
What would be interesting would be a scientific study of theism vs atheism to try and find covariants and therefrore possible causes.

[sweetiepie]

Living for life's sake, not for selling yourself out for a supposed afterlife. Not wasting your time, nor making anyone else's more difficult. Empathy, perhaps our greatest emotion, can be our greatest guide if we let it.
Living for life's sake is a nonsensical phrase. What is life, and why does it have a sake?

[moonwatcher]

Living for life's sake is a nonsensical phrase. What is life, and why does it have a sake?


By living for life's sake I take him to mean that he finds the experience of life intrinsically rewarding and meaningful.

Nothing nonsensical in that.

[Alethias]

Living for life's sake is a nonsensical phrase. What is life, and why does it have a sake?It's not a nonsensical phrase, it's an idiomatic phrase.

At least to my understanding it simply means taking joy in the process of living and not feeling obligated to find a purpose for living beyond that.

One of the many questions I get from christians is "What is your purpose for even living?"

This is a reasonable answer, in my opinion.

Alethias

[Berthold]

The abiogenesis that the OP mentioned probably was the belief (held until the 19th century and debunked by Pasteur) that modern animals continuously arise from non-living matter, such as mice from old clothes etc...

[sharon45]

I don't think the world will ever get over the need for religion.

As knowledge is constantly introduced, the more vague and mysterious religion becomes.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

The abiogenesis that the OP mentioned probably was the belief (held until the 19th century and debunked by Pasteur) that modern animals continuously arise from non-living matter, such as mice from old clothes etc...

I thought that was called "spontaneous generation"? Calling two completely different concepts with the same name can cause confusion. Thank you for the explanation, Berthold.

[suttsteve]

Religion is like a placebo crutch that people who have convinced themselves that they have a broken leg use, even though they're perfectly capable of walking on their own. They just don't realize it and enjoy the security they get from the crutch and fear that, if it should ever be taken away, they would fall to the ground and hurt themselves.

Religion is the last thing mankind currently needs. What's needed is a little confidence in our own ability to solve problems and get along with each other, without the imagined support of some magical storybook character.

[sweetiepie]

By living for life's sake I take him to mean that he finds the experience of life intrinsically rewarding and meaningful.

Nothing nonsensical in that.
I find it hard to believe, after noting that there is not evidence toward God, that he would just randomly start supposing that life is "intrinsically meaningful". I read his claim to be subjective. That he enjoys life, and therefore lives. I guess I could be wrong though seeing how I'm not him...

[sweetiepie]

It's not a nonsensical phrase, it's an idiomatic phrase.

At least to my understanding it simply means taking joy in the process of living and not feeling obligated to find a purpose for living beyond that.

One of the many questions I get from christians is "What is your purpose for even living?"

This is a reasonable answer, in my opinion.

Alethias
It's dodging the question then. The real answer is "I don't have one." The answer to the question-- "why do you continue living"-- is more accurately, "because I feel like it."
Living for life's sake suggest life has intrinsic value. I don't wanna die suggests that you don't wanna die.

[Hrvoje Butkovic]

Religion is like a placebo crutch that people who have convinced themselves that they have a broken leg use, even though they're perfectly capable of walking on their own. They just don't realize it and enjoy the security they get from the crutch and fear that, if it should ever be taken away, they would fall to the ground and hurt themselves.

Religion is the last thing mankind currently needs. What's needed is a little confidence in our own ability to solve problems and get along with each other, without the imagined support of some magical storybook character.
Couldn't agree more. Furthermore, religion is not needed to give people belief in an afterlife. Spirituality is sufficient for this purpose. The 'advantage' that religion has over spirituality is that it gives its adherents a sense of identity and that it enables them to have a belief system without having to put in the effort to construct it themselves.

[4321lynx]

Religion is like a placebo crutch that people who have convinced themselves that they have a broken leg use, even though they're perfectly capable of walking on their own. They just don't realize it and enjoy the security they get from the crutch and fear that, if it should ever be taken away, they would fall to the ground and hurt themselves.

Religion is the last thing mankind currently needs. What's needed is a little confidence in our own ability to solve problems and get along with each other, without the imagined support of some magical storybook character.

Yes, bewilderment, fear, anxiety about all sorts of phenomena including death, lie at the root of religion's origin & hold on people. It was also found useful, in keeping groups, tribes, "nations", together and in fighting off the Others, the ones with a different crutch. And the crutch was used to fight them. But it was also useful in bringing up children in what was "right" & "wrong" for that particular group, & remains an easy way to do this. Maybe that is brainwashing & repression, but civilisation IS repression.
Atheist states had to resort to the terror of the here & now, as opposed to the terror of the hereafter,(eg the Gestapo, NKVD etc) to keep order. And we atheists enjoy freedom and security in states whose organization is still pervaded with religious ideas, even when the separation of church & state is real to a great extent. The good or harm a religion does depends on how much power the religion (or cult) has & is able to use.
Education is the way to go, but I doubt it will replace religion for the vast majority of people.
One last thought.
If we were all like the Amish, it would be a peaceful world, but hellishly boring.

[EthnAlln]

I agree with the OP to a very large extent. I too (and I suspect everyone else here) know lots of simple, inoffensive people, who make their church-going and related activities into an important part of their life. It is a source of direction, a way to spend their leisure time, and a comfort in affliction. But I don't need it, and I suspect these people wouldn't either if they hadn't invested so much in it.

Still, they do a lot of good with their charitable activities, and it strikes me that it would be cruel and insensitive to point out the irrationality of the basic belief. I know I couldn't ever do that to the very earnest and kind relatives of mine who set great store by their church activities. The next generation may be less committed, as many succeeding generations have been in Europe, until now Christianity is almost a relic of the dead past (just at the time when an influx of zealous Muslim immigrants is occurring: how's that for irony?).

But I don't want to be misunderstood. While door-to-door atheism is a bad idea, I'm all in favor of people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins proclaiming atheism and defending rationality on the public stage. That isn't directed at anyone in particular, and some may come to take a more rational point of view as a result of the efforts of atheists like these. I don't think there is anything essential to society in religion per se. The harm comes from depriving people of a misguided purpose that they have adopted. If they can be kept from adopting such a purpose in the first place, so much the better.

[Vivo]

Thanks those who clarified for me. Yes, when I said Abiogenesis, I was referring to the theory that mud turned into frogs, leaves into worms and all that nonsese. That was the name given to the theory in my highschool biology, but it was also referred to as spontaneous generation.

Thank you, Alethias, for defending my claim. You nailed it; that's exactly what I meant.

And, LukeS, you took what I said too literally. Obviously every one of those things exists in some form or other somewhere; I merely meant that mankind has achieved great victories on those fronts, as we are and will continue achieving on the issue of homosexual rights.

One thing I want to stress to any theists reading, and please hear me out. It's something I beleive personally. I'll try and put it as well I can. According to everything we know as true, everything that's proven, everything common sense dictates, we possess a very finite existence. I'm not telling you this out of spite or hate or anything like that at all, but for your sake. We only get one life (so far has been yet proven), one. Do not waste it! Too many people live their lives in the box! Have a dream? Go for it. You won't get another shot. Don't be a tool your whole life.

[Tigers!]

One thing I want to stress to any theists reading, and please hear me out. It's something I beleive personally. I'll try and put it as well I can. According to everything we know as true, everything that's proven, everything common sense dictates, we possess a very finite existence. I'm not telling you this out of spite or hate or anything like that at all, but for your sake. We only get one life (so far has been yet proven), one. Do not waste it! Too many people live their lives in the box! Have a dream? Go for it. You won't get another shot. Don't be a tool your whole life.
Thank you for your kind thoughts.
As a theist I want to assure you that I am not wasting my life. My wife and I have dreams and are going for them.
Tonight we are going to look at a camper trailer that may take ourselves and our daughter on a trip around Australia.

[Hamlet]

Thank you for your kind thoughts.
As a theist I want to assure you that I am not wasting my life. My wife and I have dreams and are going for them.
Tonight we are going to look at a camper trailer that may take ourselves and our daughter on a trip around Australia.

What! You're a theist and your capable of typing on this message board and even driving! I thought only atheists could do things like that ;) .

[joedad]

Most people only know one religion, just like they only know one language and one culture. I think that fact alone explains religion’s “popularity.”

Here in the U.S., if comparative religion was compulsory education in middle school and high school, religion would likely be as good as dead in a couple generations.

Religion just needs integrated. Fat chance of that ever happening.

[espritch]

Atheist states had to resort to the terror of the here & now, as opposed to the terror of the hereafter,(eg the Gestapo, NKVD etc) to keep order.

Atheist states resorted to the terror of the here & now to keep power, not order. They aren't quite the same thing, the difference being that order can be maintained through societal consensus, while power can only be maintained through force.

[Vivo]

Ah, Tigers, your post is very kind. Thank you :). Perhaps what I said was a bit too venemous, but it was made considering some certain theists I know around me who live very narrow lives. I have no doubt you and your family won't waste life. Live it up!

[Berthold]

I thought that was called "spontaneous generation"? Calling two completely different concepts with the same name can cause confusion. Thank you for the explanation, Berthold.
Both called Urzeugung in German.

True, a bit unlucky; but at least usually recognizable from the context. I needed some time to get used to the way biologists employ the words endothermic and exothermic. Not the exact opposites from their meaning in physics and chemistry, but nearly so.

[LaMancha Man]

Most people only know one religion, just like they only know one language and one culture. I think that fact alone explains religion’s “popularity.”

Here in the U.S., if comparative religion was compulsory education in middle school and high school, religion would likely be as good as dead in a couple generations.

Religion just needs integrated. Fat chance of that ever happening.


Hi/hello to all...
As was stated, education is the most critical aspect of theology, look to any renowed group; NSC, NSA, Britons Fellowship Societies etc. the list of Nobel prize winners, etc etc you will see the blazingly obvious trend... there simply are no theistic minds achieving those lofty levels of human intellectual standards....

Should the "Merika" as we know it today employ education towards understanding all of theological history, or even some of historys' examples of religion then I firmly believe that theology in general would quickly fall apart and be further reduced in the same way that that which was once the apex of huge conglomerations of cultures and societies religion; namely the Greek and Roman pantheistic varieties..That it has not been subsequently discarded along with the wings of Pegasus, is purely a model of how power ultimately corrupts and then is used as a tool to influence, control, subjugate and corrupt the sheeple.

[Biff the unclean]

What! You're a theist and your capable of typing on this message board and even driving! I thought only atheists could do things like that ;) .
But his "dream" involves living in a trailer camp. That's a theist alright.:rolleyes:

[Tigers!]

But his "dream" involves living in a trailer camp. That's a theist alright.:rolleyes:
And the atheist can only respond with sarcasm. :(

[EarlOfLade]

Because most people are sheep who will follow whatever stupid doctrine is put in front of them. Religion especially.

The history is full of this. When you start to understand why people are willing to follow people like Hitler and Stalin, you will understand why the follow religion.