Of Atheism and Ghosts [Archive I]

Violent Messiah

October 29, 2006, 01:03 AM

First off, are there any atheists that believe in Ghosts? I assume there are none...

I even think that it is an added benefit to atheists to have no beliefs whatsoever in spirits and the undead roaming about. :)

But do you really adhere and practice this non-belief?

For example, can you enter a very dark and 'haunted' place bravely with no inhibitions whatsoever and stay for the night? Of course you might reason that you are concerned about snakes, spiders or even criminal elements...but beyond that, don't you feel just a little afraid of Ghosts?

Another thing, when you watch The Grudge, The Ring, etc., do you get scared? Or can you categorically say that you are just surprised by the shocking scenes (not really scared)?

Can you watch horror movies alone in your home at midnight?

Me, I personally don't believe in ghosts, but from time to time, I get scared, I get goosebumps when I'm in the abovementioned situations :blush:

I'm interested for your comments.....

Harumi

October 29, 2006, 01:37 AM

I think people tend to underestimate the things their brain cooks up. No, I don't believe in ghosts, but god damn, five minutes of a horror movie will have me shaking and shivering at night for the next month of so.

I became frightened because my mom told me not to look into mirrors late at night (because you can see ghosts in the mirror) and I couldn't for weeks.

Rationally, I know everything is fake, but the imagination is a powerful thing, and mine has always been especially active. I doubt that I would ever have someone burst into my room and slit my throat, but imagining my throat being slit will send me into shakes.

I don't think it's so much adhering to non-belief, as the brain tuning to our basic instinct of fear, and that's an emotion that's hard to turn off. It's hard to truly separate our rational mind from everything else.

Violent Messiah

October 29, 2006, 01:57 AM

Rationally, I know everything is fake, but the imagination is a powerful thing, and mine has always been especially active. I doubt that I would ever have someone burst into my room and slit my throat, but imagining my throat being slit will send me into shakes.

But, this sort of thing is still possible (pray to God or FSM this doesn't happen) unlike Ghosts emerging from the mirror and scaring the shit out of you....

I don't think it's so much adhering to non-belief, as the brain tuning to our basic instinct of fear, and that's an emotion that's hard to turn off. It's hard to truly separate our rational mind from everything else.

Do we fear of falling from the Earth? No, because we know that it is impossible. What boggles me is that eventhough you and I do not believe in Ghosts, there are scenarios that will make us afraid. Very afraid of them. :)

Harumi

October 29, 2006, 02:00 AM

But, this sort of thing is still possible (pray to God or FSM this doens't happen) unlike Ghosts emerging from the mirror and scaring the shit out of you....

Do we fear of falling from the Earth? No, because we know that it is impossible. What boggles me is that even though you and I do not believe in Ghosts, there are scenarios that will make us afraid. Very afraid of them. :))

It's probably because it is part of the Unknown (Oooeeeooooo) and the human mind is terrified of it, and it is a huge part of our culture. There aren't shows or movies about people falling off the Earth, but there are tons of ghost stories. We're irrationally afraid of what we hear often, even when we know better. It's the same reason why some atheists may still fear the idea of hell, even though they know better. Conditioning is a tough thing to put off.

Koyaanisqatsi

October 29, 2006, 02:01 AM

Violent Messiah: First off, are there any atheists that believe in Ghosts?

"Believe in" or reasonably think they don't exist?

MORE: I assume there are none...

That would be a reasonable assumption.

MORE: I even think that it is an added benefit to atheists to have no beliefs whatsoever in spirits and the undead roaming about.

Lacking such "beliefs" does indeed represent a "perq," if you will :D.

MORE: But do you really adhere and practice this non-belief?

Do you really adhere and practice a non-belief in Rah, the Sun God? Or Santa Clause?

MORE: For example, can you enter a very dark and 'haunted' place bravely with no inhibitions whatsoever and stay for the night?

Yes.

MORE: Of course you might reason that you are concerned about snakes, spiders or even criminal elements...but beyond that, don't you feel just a little afraid of Ghosts?

Do you feel just a little afraid of evil leprechauns?

MORE: Another thing, when you watch The Grudge, The Ring, etc., do you get scared?

No. Why would I? They're movies.

MORE: Or can you categorically say that you are just surprised by the shocking scenes (not really scared)?

I can categorically say that I am just surprised by the manipulation of talented editors. That should tell you something about what is actually "scarey" about such movies, btw. The rest you fill in and that, too, is a result of the expertise of the filmmaker.

MORE: Can you watch horror movies alone in your home at midnight?

Can you watch comedy movies alone in your home at midnight?

MORE: Me, I personally don't believe in ghosts, but from time to time, I get scared, I get goosebumps when I'm in the abovementioned situations

And do you think that is a result of "the truth," or of the expertise of the "filmmakers" that have influenced, or played upon those fears you have throughout your entire life?

ashe

October 29, 2006, 02:22 AM

If a skeptic really wants to be scared, he/she can always think back to the problem of induction... Consider the following scenario...

Phone rings. Call display shows 666-6666.

Skeptic: "... hello?"

Cthulhu: "CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?"

:eek: :p ;)

As for ghosts, I pretty much have just tossed them in the "supernatural" bin along with all the other weird stuff that never seems to be documented properly. It's a bin that I don't look at very often.

ashe

cjack

October 29, 2006, 03:04 AM

Well I guess I count as an agnostic when it comes to ghosts, due to personal experience.

I worked at a radio station in New Mexico awhile back that was featured on a news story as one of the most "haunted" places in the state. I can certainly understand why. I never saw anything that would count as an actual ghost, but there was some really weird shit going on in that building that I can't exactly explain.

For example, I was working the night shift..all alone in the building...and in the interest of saving energy I went around and shut off the lights in the parts of the building that weren't being used. 20 minutes later, I get up and head to the snack machine, and all the lights are back on.

LoneReaction

October 29, 2006, 03:10 AM

I'll believe in ghosts when I see one.
Would be great to have a ghost friend!

Fish

October 29, 2006, 03:45 AM

I don't believe in ghosts, but i still get creeped out when it's dark and eerie or when I look into the mirror in the dark. But I know it's just my brain playing tricks on me. My brain just loves freaking itself out. Be it a scary ghostly face, or a horrible disgusting closeup of a centipede, my mind just loves playing those scenes over and over again just to freak me out. What a sadist. :mad:

Strangely enough, I never get scared watching horror flicks. I loved Ju On and The Exorcist and stuff because of the whole creepy factor. They're not scary. Just gory/goosebumpy/shocking, which is fun.

Do athsiets believe in the explanation of ghosts as the "energy" left behind by someone who died? It's the more mystical and less supernatural explanation for the paranormal, but still too mumbo jumbo for my tastes.

purple_kathryn

October 29, 2006, 04:02 AM

No there are no ghosts

Yes the ring and more so the grudge scared me

OTOH so do spiders and I logically know there is no way they can hurt me (especially here where they're small and harmless)

Anat

October 29, 2006, 04:32 AM

I became frightened because my mom told me not to look into mirrors late at night (because you can see ghosts in the mirror) and I couldn't for weeks.
Hey, I thought that was a Jewish superstition. That's why one is supposed to cover the mirrors in a house where a dead body lies prior to burial.

_Naturalist_

October 29, 2006, 05:11 AM

First off, are there any atheists that believe in Ghosts? I assume there are none...
No, I don't.

For example, can you enter a very dark and 'haunted' place bravely with no inhibitions whatsoever and stay for the night? Of course you might reason that you are concerned about snakes, spiders or even criminal elements...but beyond that, don't you feel just a little afraid of Ghosts?
Ghosts, no.

Another thing, when you watch The Grudge, The Ring, etc., do you get scared?
Yes, I think that if the movie is well-made I kinda get sucked into it. A car chase such as in Ronin or Transporter can be really engaging even if it's not happening for real, likewise with shootouts or fights or other things in movies that aren't for real. When it comes to the Grudge and Ring movies, the ghost girl and boy are so bizarre, they move and behave so strangely, they appear out of nowhere and look freaky, and quite frankly it works really well.

Can you watch horror movies alone in your home at midnight?
Oh yes.

Mickie

October 29, 2006, 05:52 AM

I'm not afraid of ghosts but I am afraid of the creepy crawly things I can't see.

I don't watch horror flicks because I just get freaked out... however I also had issues with Jurassic Park and Arachnophobia and I don't think there are T-Rexes roaming about nor human digesting spiders (I do believe in the Sidney funnel web but I'm not in OZ).

I also don't like being in the house alone with the lights on and a uncovered window. I think it is more of an issue of not being able to see what is out there.

wetnewspaper@hotmail

October 29, 2006, 06:27 AM

First off, are there any atheists that believe in Ghosts? I assume there are none...

I'm an athiest because I've weighed the evidence, and concluded that it's the truth.
I would use that same thought process for any other unproven claim, so no, I don't think that an athiest is neccessarily a non-ghostist, as they may have evidence for one, and not the other.

I used to be very interested in the paranormal, and there are explanations for ghosts other than the spirits of the dead (i.e. areas having a sort of imprinting of things that happened there).

I think the existance of ghosts (in what ever form they may take) is more likely than a god, but if there's anything it surely has a natural explaination.

I don't get scared from horror movies, but I blame that on the quality of the movies, more than my beliefs.

Josie

October 29, 2006, 06:44 AM

I'm an atheist, and don't believe in ghosts, but I won't watch horror movies for anything. I don't enjoy being scared, and my imagination is vivid enough to make the experience very real and immediate. That's why I enjoy books so much, my imagination puts me right in the scene, so I experience it, but it does have drawbacks.

Revasser

October 29, 2006, 07:23 AM

Saying one is an atheist doesn't say anything about what one thinks about other supernatural ideas, though in our culture it often implies it, I'll admit. But no, I don't think there is any credible evidence to the existence of ghosts, no matter which brand of hocus pocus you ascribe their presence to, be it dead people back from heaven, mystical new age "energy" or their brain pattern trapped in a computerised washing machine after the aliens misfired their teleporter.

When people present "evidence" for ghosts, they have invariably gone in with an intention to find evidence, any evidence for something they already believe in and are quick to attribute anything even mildly unusual (even when it immediately falls apart under the slightest skeptical scrutiny) to the presence of ghosts (or whatever claptrap happens to be their pet interest.)

That's not to say I don't get creeped out in eerie places, but that is generally down to cultural conditioning that decides what we should be "scared" of and an instinct to be wary or even outright afraid of situations where there are a lot of unknown factors and (because of say, darkness) it's difficult to assess the environment. Generally, I'd probably say it's the social conditioning taking advantage of that animal instinct.

Sometimes the rational mind, even though it knows it's all hogwash, isn't enough to suppress that instinctual reaction especially, as others have said, you have a vivid and active imagination.

Tao of Pooh

October 29, 2006, 08:27 AM

...I became frightened because my mom told me not to look into mirrors late at night (because you can see ghosts in the mirror) and I couldn't for weeks...
Oh man, I am sooo screwed! I work at night in a room where one entire wall is mirrored:eek:
I knew there was a reason I didn't like looking in the mirror.

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

jayh

October 29, 2006, 11:23 AM

'ghosts' are particularly probematic rationally.

Even if there were ever shown to be entities that we could barely perceive (highly unlikely), it would be ridiculous to assume they are people who somehow were converted into something else when they died. It would be much more reasonable to assume they are a form totally unrelated to us.

Harumi

October 29, 2006, 11:37 AM

Hey, I thought that was a Jewish superstition. That's why one is supposed to cover the mirrors in a house where a dead body lies prior to burial.

I'm starting to be convinced that either Jews are a subset of Chinese people or vice versa. A lot of our traditions seem to overlap. We have our own version of the evil eye for instance.

Still, the ghost in the mirror thing seems to have pervaded a lot of different cultures now. It's in a lot of movies and horror stories, so I figure that it's just popular superstition at this point.

ChristMyth

October 29, 2006, 07:08 PM

I agree that being an atheist does not mean that someone can also believe in other supernatural things such as ghosts. Being an atheist only means that I do not have a belief in God or gods, nothing more. This is exactly why when people ask me my persoal beliefs I say that I am an atheist and a skeptic. I have no belief in gods or ghosts (or goblins, the boogyman, ect.)

Of course this also doesn't mean that I am opposed to stories and non-fiction (and I use this term very loosely) books about them either. I love diving into books such as Colin Wilson's "The Occult," Manly P. Halls "Secret Teachings of All Ages" or H.P.B.'s "The Secret Doctrine" as well as any other books on the occult that I come across. I also love to watch movies like "The Grudge/II" and "The Ring/II." Do I believe them? No, but they are interesting.

Christmyth

Lord of the Fries

October 29, 2006, 07:26 PM

First off, are there any atheists that believe in Ghosts? I assume there are none...

I even think that it is an added benefit to atheists to have no beliefs whatsoever in spirits and the undead roaming about. :)

But do you really adhere and practice this non-belief? WTF? Adhere? Practise?

For example, can you enter a very dark and 'haunted' place bravely with no inhibitions whatsoever and stay for the night? There are no haunted places. And I can stay in any place so long as I am wearing appropriate clothing.

Of course you might reason that you are concerned about snakes, spiders or even criminal elements...but beyond that, don't you feel just a little afraid of Ghosts? No.

Another thing, when you watch The Grudge, The Ring, etc., do you get scared? Or can you categorically say that you are just surprised by the shocking scenes (not really scared)? Graphic war movies disturb me. Supernatural stuff is either funny or tedious, usually the latter.

Can you watch horror movies alone in your home at midnight? Yes, if I am bored.

Me, I personally don't believe in ghosts, but from time to time, I get scared, I get goosebumps when I'm in the abovementioned situations :blush:

I'm interested for your comments.....

Violent Messiah

October 29, 2006, 11:53 PM

It's the same reason why some atheists may still fear the idea of hell, even though they know better.

This is surprising.

@Koyaanisqatsi

Lacking such "beliefs" does indeed represent a "perq," if you will .

A perk indeed...;)

Do you really adhere and practice a non-belief in Rah, the Sun God? Or Santa Clause?

Perhaps I can label my 'non-expectations of gifts' at Christmas eve from a jolly old fat red man as a non-belief in Santa Clause. Also, I do not worship Rah, I don't even know a lot about him.

I think my series of questions addressed the context of my question well (i.e. watching horror flicks, entering haunted houses, etc.).

Quote:
MORE: For example, can you enter a very dark and 'haunted' place bravely with no inhibitions whatsoever and stay for the night?

Yes.

You are brave. :notworthy:

Do you feel just a little afraid of evil leprechauns?

Nope.

And do you think that is a result of "the truth," or of the expertise of the "filmmakers" that have influenced, or played upon those fears you have throughout your entire life?

I believe it is not based on 'truth'. You have a point there. I still curse myself for being scared (rarely, I might add) for something that I don't believe in....:D

@cjack,

Well I guess I count as an agnostic when it comes to ghosts, due to personal experience.

You know cjack, honestly, there's a part of me that envies you, and others also who testify to this experience. Rationality points me to believe otherwise, but I cannot really discount all the testimonies of those who have experienced apparitions.

@_Naturalist_

Yes, I think that if the movie is well-made I kinda get sucked into it. A car chase such as in Ronin or Transporter can be really engaging even if it's not happening for real, likewise with shootouts or fights or other things in movies that aren't for real. When it comes to the Grudge and Ring movies, the ghost girl and boy are so bizarre, they move and behave so strangely, they appear out of nowhere and look freaky, and quite frankly it works really well.

I'm talking about more of the fear of ghosts even if you are not watching movies. It's quite different from the feeling of exhiliration one gets when watching car chase scenes.

@Mickie

I'm not afraid of dinosaurs, I'd be surprised if I ever see one who is. They're extinct so there's no possible way for them to eat me. But with ghosts, even if I know that they do not exist (others do too), we get scared. :(

cjack

October 30, 2006, 12:10 AM

You know cjack, honestly, there's a part of me that envies you, and others also who testify to this experience. Rationality points me to believe otherwise, but I cannot really discount all the testimonies of those who have experienced apparitions.

Just to be clear, I'm not at all saying "ghosts I real and I know it 'cause I saw one," nor am I providing "testimony" to an "experience."

I never saw or experienced an "apparition." I saw some things that I couldn't explain in a building that I'd been told in advance was "haunted."

smellincoffee

October 30, 2006, 02:15 AM

I like to suspend reason and rational thinking and imbibe in stories about ghosts. It's a lifelong interest, actually.

AspenMama

October 30, 2006, 08:54 AM

I dropped all that baggage several years ago. I've always been an atheist but as a child still believed those ghost stories. Now I can easily tell my children that those things are just stories so they don't need to live in fear of stuff like that-- I tell them instead to watch out for the real life bad guys.

butswana

October 30, 2006, 09:05 AM

I don't believe in ghosts, but a friend of mine who is also an athiest does. He says there was an abandoned house close to where he grew up that had "something" in it.
A month or so ago, my 4 year old daughter and I were home alone. We were down stairs watching tv. She said she heard some one coming down the stairs. I didn't hear anything. A few minutes later I heard the stairs creaking. She looked at me and said,"there it is again." Our house is a 3.5 year old new construction. We are the only people to live there.
Maybe my house is built on a Native American burial ground. Or maybe a farmer got killed in his field right where my house is. OH, SHIT. I better move!

Cruci Fiction

October 30, 2006, 10:02 AM

The only "life forces" that scare the bejeebus (http://bejeebus.com/) out of me, are the sights of George Bush and Michael Jackson.

Lógos Sokratikós

October 30, 2006, 01:33 PM

I like to suspend reason and rational thinking and imbibe in stories about ghosts. It's a lifelong interest, actually.

Me too! I love a great horror movie when I'm bored. When I went atheist at 18 long time ago, horror movies lost their touch (bummer). But then the effect came back, not as strong as before, but that's something at least.

Of course no crappy stories with crosses and such. When I was a Catholic kid, a cross was a powerful object, now it's just a trinket. I was glad The Ring didn't have one of those, it would have spoiled the whole thing, it would have been a powerful reminder what I was seeing was fake -Zappo! Out of crazy world and back into my movie seat.

blkgayatheist

October 30, 2006, 07:14 PM

I have thought about this a lot recently, I have always loved horror movies, though ever since childhood I have been easily spooked (esp anything involving ghosts, demons, etc). Catholicism is a spooky religion too in a way and I think that contributed something (i used to sprinkle holy water in all the corners of my room and grip my rosary beads tightly at nite.

But now I assure myself that being an atheist/skeptic precludes my literal belief in such. However I do still have the feeling from time to time when I am "spooked" that my mind could play a trick on me, making me see something that wasnt there, which would be just as bad.

MadPhatCat

October 30, 2006, 09:21 PM

Let me tell you something
Bustin' makes me feel good

I ain't afraid of no ghost

DB_Hunter

October 31, 2006, 11:12 AM

I'm a skeptic... but I've also seen stuff that I can't explain. I'm also enough of a realist to know when I know enough about something to explain it rationally, and when I just don't have enough information to do more than shrug my shoulders and say, "Dunno..."

My parents' house has weird stuff that happens - power fluctuations that make the lights flicker, the garage door opening and closing by itself, doors opening when you KNOW they were closed and no one else is home.

I've seen "shadows" there on many occasions - sometimes large figures that partially block out lights behind them, smaller "dwarf" figures that run around, and hand-sized "spiders" that scurry along floors and walls and up through the ceiling. Guests have seen them, too - it's almost funny to see double-takes, and then a confused look settle on their faces, wondering if they really saw something.

Once, I was tossing and turning in bed, trying to go to sleep. I wasn't sleepy at all, and was just lyng there, looking at the wall. All of a sudden, I saw a pair of green eyes open, and take a look around, see me, do a double-take, open a little wider, blink, and disappear. I wasn't looking right at them when they first appeared, but I sure as HELL looked right at them when they did their double-take, and started to sit up in bed! The impression was, "You're not supposed to be here! Crap! He saw me! Gotta go!" Never saw anything like that again...

There are also floating "balls" of odor that move around. No one smokes, but there are occasionally areas of what smells like moldy old tobacco, or sometimes dead animal, about a foot across. My brother and I "mapped" them on occasion with our noses - stick your head in, and you smell it. Move a few inches out, and it's gone. It may stay for a little, then move or just disappear in a moment.

The first time I really noticed the smells was when I had a "dead animal" one next to the window of my room. Opening the window and airing out the room did nothing to help, so I though a snake had crawled in and died under my bed. When I had time the next weekend, I took off the mattresses, and did some cleaning. Never found ANYTHING unusual there (and I looked though all the boxes and bags), but the smell went away that day. IT wan't until much later that I started to put the "weird smell" incidents together.

Once, we found once in my bother's room, and called mom in to smell it, too. She kept asking what it was, not liking "We don't know" as an answer. After a few minutes, we tracked the "ball" out into the hallway, moving at about a meter in 10 seconds. A few seconds after it left the room, we couldn't find it anymore and looking like idiots, stanking on a stepladder, or crawling on the ground, sniffing like crazy. Mom was not amused.

I've tried taking photos to see if I got anything wierd, but never had anything show up. I kept trying until my wife and I bought our own house. Once of the previous owners died there, but we've had nothing weird happen there at all in the past year.

Something that I find strange is that I don't get scared of this stuff. Ghost storied scare the crap out of me, and I hate horror movies. This stuff just pisses me off. The shadows annoy me ("Hey! Cut it out!"), and are like kids that are underfoot. The smell balls are just weird, and the incident with the eyes just got me angry ("Get the hell out - this is MY room!"). People I told the story say that they would have freaked out seeing them. I dunno - fictional ghosts scare me, but "real" ones are just annoying to me.

So, do I "believe" in ghosts? I don't really know if there ARE "ghosts," but I know when I'm presented with a phenomenon that is experienced by several people at once (including our "controls" that didn't know what was going on), and that does not fit in with our current understanding of the world around us, I may not be able to explain rationally what is going on. However, I can and will document what is happening around me, so that I can accurately report it later. There have been times I'd have loved to have had a proton gun and a containment trap with me...

DB

Aethari

October 31, 2006, 11:38 AM

The human mind is programmed to recognize sentience, and especially faces, in just about everything. I think it is probably a minority of the population that hasn't had weird experiences that they cannot explain. That's the reason why 'design' arguments have such popular appeal-- the human mind is inherently teleological. We look for purpose, and purposeful minds, in just about everything. Just think, you can look at practically *any* object an envision some sort of face. And it's perfectly instinctive to attribute intelligent motives to ridiculous things-- the car not starting, your computer failing, or even a rock that trips you up. Philosophy has a lot to say about epistemology, this is true: but I think examining the phenomena of the supernatural has infinitely more useful things to say about how we know and interpret experience.

Ghosts are substantially 'easier' to believe in than gods, because their actions can presumably be many orders of magnitude less dramatic or important. The exact same sort of humanizing interpretation makes people believe in ghosts as makes people believe in gods, but the bar is just so much lower. It is, after all, far easier to brew up scenarios that justify the existence of a spectre that bangs doors than it is to justify the existence of a god that Big Bangs universes.

DB_Hunter

October 31, 2006, 12:11 PM

And it's perfectly instinctive to attribute intelligent motives to ridiculous things-- the car not starting, your computer failing, or even a rock that trips you up. Philosophy has a lot to say about epistemology, this is true: but I think examining the phenomena of the supernatural has infinitely more useful things to say about how we know and interpret experience.

I agree completely. But I also know that while humans look for patterns in the world around them, and can create patterns that are not there, some events do occur that form a pattern that is not appearant until months or years after the initial events.

The power interuptions we had lasted about 3 months. I called the power company on at least five several occasions, complaining about the service and asking if they had a problem on their end. Twice, they sent someone out, and they were not able to find a problem. I asked the neighbors of they had power problems as well, but no one else did. Dad's good at electrical work, and we looked over the curcuit breaker wiring, and it was fine. It was during this time that the garage door kept opening and closing, as well as several 911 calls grouped more than a week part that were never made, but had the local police show up at our door. It gets your heart going when you have someone shining their flishlight in your window at night, while you're typing away and getting some work done.

During that time, we had friends over who would sometimes glance over to the side, as if they saw something out of the corner of their eyes and look confused. I never asking about that - but I did watch for it. Once, after a bad few days of power fluctuations that caused me to lose hours of work (save early, save often), I had some friends over, and was complaining about the crap that was going on. I was just pissed, saying stuff like, "Fucking ghosts - always screwing around. Go away! Find someone else to bother!" OK, there was probably a lot more profanity involved... in several languages.

They though it was funny, and even my brother laughed a little... until the power went out for about five or six seconds, came back on, and the VCR ate the tape we were watching. They stopped laughing as soon as everything went dark, and weren't comfortable staying for much longer ("See - this is the crap I have to put up with.") Sure - it could have easily been just a very weird coincidence. I know that, and I'm aware that it's also the most likely answer. But I also know that if I take that one event and add it to the records of the other events, as well as trying to find out of there were outside reasons for the power problems, it becomes less likely that it was "just a coincidence."

Frankly, I'd LOVE to have someone check it all out and say, "Here's your problem - it a natural gas leak through your foundation (we're on Burnet shale) that's causing hallucinations, and there's nutria that have been eating your underground power cables." That would be perfect, as I really don't like this crap.

Until that happens, my default position is "I don't know what the fuck is going on, but it sure does piss me off." That's a position I'm comfortable in holding... until I get a definative answer, one way or another.

DB

satur9poet

October 31, 2006, 12:58 PM

I'm an atheist, yet I've had experiences similar to what DB describes, in which more than one person witnessed the same thing. One incident that sticks out in my mind happened when I was a teen. I was vegging on the couch watching TV in the living room in our apartment when some movement caught my eye and I watched, stunned, as a white "thing" materialized out of the wall and took the form of a wedding veil and floated down the hall by the front door. I watched it for several seconds before it disappeared. I didn't say anything to my mother, who was in another room. I guess I was too shocked at what I just saw.

Later that night when my mom came home from work, I was falling asleep on the couch in the living room. Everything was quiet until I heard her yell my name, startling me. When i asked what was wrong, she said, "did you see that?!?" I said no because I had my eyes closed. She described it to a T--a white wedding veil (no face was visible) drifting across the living room and out rhe patio window!

For years this has puzzled me because I don't believe in ghosts. This happened almost 10 years ago, and it wasn't until last year that I learned about the history of the land our building was built on. A century ago, it used to be a park owned by a local church, and people would come here to get married.

Weird.

Godless Dave

October 31, 2006, 01:46 PM

Do we fear of falling from the Earth? No, because we know that it is impossible. What boggles me is that eventhough you and I do not believe in Ghosts, there are scenarios that will make us afraid. Very afraid of them. :)

What's mindboggling about that? Feelings of fear don't come from the reasoning part of the brain.

Dentarthurdent

October 31, 2006, 06:39 PM

Of course you might reason that you are concerned about snakes, spiders or even criminal elements...but beyond that, don't you feel just a little afraid of Ghosts?

No.

Another thing, when you watch The Grudge, The Ring, etc., do you get scared? Or can you categorically say that you are just surprised by the shocking scenes (not really scared)?

Creeped out is more like it. I usually let my irrational mind have control while watching a ghost movie, because I love a good chilling story.

Can you watch horror movies alone in your home at midnight?

Yes. In fact, that's the best time.

Mabus_Zero

October 31, 2006, 07:05 PM

This reminds me of something. I recently watched the new 'Grudge' movie, and when I began noticing a pattern, I grew very bored very quickly. For instance, the entirety of the ghostly actions seemed to consist of the ghosts popping up in strange places. It never showed what the ghosts did to the people, besides making them fall off buildings, or relive a part of their own deaths, and both of these were caused primarily by startling the individual.

On top of that, I recognized a very familiar scene of the man producing a picture, and the woman's ghost popping up. (I was constantly thinking 'toss her in the fixer, you tard').

So really, it consisted of ghosts popping up in unexpected places, and people being too scared or hesitant to act.

As far as my belief in ghosts goes, though, I'll tell you when I see one.

ashe

October 31, 2006, 10:39 PM

satur9poet

November 1, 2006, 10:56 PM

I know you are probably used to all the sceptic questions by now but did you consistently refer to this thing as a "wedding veil" before you discovered that there was a church park on the location? Is it possible that you retrofitted the wedding veil description after you learned about the park? Just one question of many possible questions... :)

cheers,

ashe

Yes, I described it as a wedding veil years before I discovered the wedding thing, as did my mom. It was very distinct.

FatherMithras

November 1, 2006, 11:06 PM

My girlfriend believes in ghosts and is an atheist due to personal experiences. Sometimes it worries me she could become religious. =(
She deconverted with me, but sometimes I wonder if she just did it to make me happy and tricked herself into it.

Zygote

November 2, 2006, 01:25 AM

Our instincts are relics from our predator/prey days, so it's not surprising that suspense and things-that-go-bump-in-the-dark movies can tap into that deep unsettled feeling.

I don't think that suspicion of the unknown/dark can be equated to superstition, though. And cognition can overcome instinct.

I work every day in a Victorian mansion that has a history of being haunted by a woman who died violently. I occasionally go in alone at night to get something out of my classroom on the second floor. There is usually a downstairs light on, but the upstairs is dark and I am alone.

I love it. It feels just like it does in the daytime, only more peaceful. I've spent the night in the building, alone in the dark, with no creepy feelings.

I would love to "see" or "hear" the ghost so that I can take a close look at what other people are claiming to be a paranormal phenomenon. The skeptical ear apparently doesn't hear as much as the ear that is waiting for something.

Unbeatable

November 2, 2006, 04:10 AM

First off, are there any atheists that believe in Ghosts?

I don't officially think that consciousness survives death and returns as some sort of anthropomorphic perceptible energy form, if that's what you mean. I think the evidence points to the conclusion that that sort of thing probably doesn't happen, and that humans probably made that idea up. But I could be wrong. I'm not exactly a confident naturalist.

But do you really adhere and practice this non-belief?

Not if adhering means not being afraid, or acting in spite of fear. Overall, the task of trying to overcome these sorts of fears is just too much work for me.

For example, can you enter a very dark and 'haunted' place bravely with no inhibitions whatsoever and stay for the night? Of course you might reason that you are concerned about snakes, spiders or even criminal elements...but beyond that, don't you feel just a little afraid of Ghosts?

I've never tried that sort of thing. Given the choice, I'd opt out. Given my tendency towards hallucinating during episodes of sleep paralysis, I wouldn't want to take the chance of experiencing that again. Also, I could be wrong about the nonexistence of the paranormal, and I don't want to tempt fate, even though I think the actual concept of tempting fate is incoherent. But I have that concern about tempting fate a lot, come to think of it, not just when it comes to ideas like ghosts. There's a sort of magical thinking routine I have where I'll worry about something, then fear that if I dismiss my initial worries as irrational, that the very fact that I dismissed them will make it more likely that what I initially worried about will turn out to be real, just so the universe can prove me wrong.

(e.g. back in July when I was preparing to go on vacation to Alaska, I posted this thread in the Lounge about how I was worried the plane may crash because I had only opted to go on the trip in order to procrastinate suicide. I think I felt that a plane crash would be more likely if I had that worry and kept it to myself than if I posted it in a public forum. It's as if I felt like forces out there were conspiring against me, but if I told people about their plans, they wouldn't be able to go through with them anymore because then people would know it was them.)

Another thing, when you watch The Grudge, The Ring, etc., do you get scared?

I don't watch those movies. One was enough. I watched The Ring once back when it came out, and that little girl haunts my imagination to this very day. Half the time when I open the door to my bedroom at night to use the restroom or get a drink, I wonder if this is going to be the time that I finally find her standing there. I don't necessarily expect a real ghost to be there, but I am afraid that one day my imagination will go one step further and start producing actual sensory hallucinations of paranormal phenomena to sort of make a self-fulfilling prophecy out of my fear of such phenomena.

Can you watch horror movies alone in your home at midnight?

Depends on the movie. I can't watch The Ring ever again, no matter what time of day it is or how many people are in the room. But I'm sure there's some horror that I can watch. Anything about werewolves, zombies, or vampires, for example. Relatively tangible things don't affect me the way the more noncorporeal ones do.

Tao of Pooh

November 2, 2006, 04:36 AM

I'm starting to be convinced that either Jews are a subset of Chinese people or vice versa. A lot of our traditions seem to overlap. We have our own version of the evil eye for instance.

Still, the ghost in the mirror thing seems to have pervaded a lot of different cultures now. It's in a lot of movies and horror stories, so I figure that it's just popular superstition at this point.

You should check out this book: The discovery of Genesis
I've not read it so I can't tell you if it's any good or not.

I miss the days when my biggest worry was being picked last for kickball.

lpetrich

November 2, 2006, 08:38 AM

I think that that ghost-in-the-mirror superstition arises from what a mirror image seems like -- a ghostly version of the original.

And on ghosts in general, you people might like Ebonmuse's article Popular Delusions IV: Hauntings (http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/popular-delusions-iv.html)

Shazz55

November 3, 2006, 08:44 PM

I remember vividely an incident when I was young (about 10 years old).

I woke up one night and saw a man standing in my room, only it wasn't a man. It was kind of glowing white and was looking at me. Obviously this scared me and I turned over and closed my eyes. A few seconds later I turned back and he was still there, watching me. I noticed that I could see right threw him. I just shut my eyes and eventually fell asleep.

To this day I have no rational explanation, but just because I have no rational explanation sure as shit doesn't mean it was a ghost :P. I had atributed it to some sort of sleep-problem, but the fact I was able to fully move and it remained there leads me to believe it was something else.

The dark plays many tricks on the mind, especially to a child who believed in ghosts. Many times as a youngster I would think I saw my mother enter my room (witnessing the a woman wearing a robe similar to hers). So much so that once I called out "mom?". When nothing happened I freaked and shut my eyes.

There are a lot of things we can't explain. Maybe these brains of ours arent as great as we think they are. To instantly assume a hallucination or a light turning on is an undead spirit of such-and-such a person is, in my opnion, insane.

I'm pretty sure everyone on the daily sees movement out of the corner of their eyes. My eyes have very tiny dots that move about sometimes when I'm looking around (I forget what the eye doctor called them but its nothing obstructive). Once in a while they'll create a motion where Im sure someithng is moving next to me, upon inspection nothing is there and I relax knowing it was just my eyes.

My point is, don't jump to conclusions :P

Something else: anyone ever have the balls to actually play bloody mary alone in their bathroom with the lights off?

TheGreaterForce

November 10, 2006, 09:25 AM

lol, me and my younger siblings use to do the bloody marry thing, but only getting to the number 2 count, then when we'd launch the number 3, we each run out the bathroom very quickly.:rolling:

they say it had to be at precisely 12 o'clock at midnight for it to work though.:rolleyes:

DB_Hunter

November 10, 2006, 02:37 PM

My wife reminded my of soemthing this week that had scared the crap out of her at the old house.

She was woken up one night by the bed shaking, with the headboard hitting the wall. She woke up with a start, and the bed kept shaking for several more seconds, then stopped suddenly. I slept through it, but she she woke me up, and asked me to kick my leg a few times (but didn't tell me why at first), to see if it was me doing it. She said it was completely different, and then told me what had happened.

I don't think she got back to sleep that night.

My brother told me about something that had happened to him, when I first asked him if he had seen or felt something weird in the house, without me giving any more details... he looked at me funny, and said that a few nights before, something weird had happened.

He had been lying in beed, trying to go to sleep. He had the blinds open, and could see the lights from houses on the other side of the pond. He then said that something dimmed the lights and he thought it was a sort of tall shape, man-sized "darkness" there. He said he couldn't move (yes, we know about sleep paralysis), but that he was trying to, and sweating from the effort. He then left what he described as a "scan" - a tingling sensation that was very localized, starting from his feet and moving to his head, and back down, as if he was on Star Trek on a medial diagnostic table. As soon as it was over, the shadow disappeared, and he could move again... enough to spend an hour in the bathroom in cold sweats.

I didn't tell him anything of what I saw until after that.

So many incidents happened that I don't remember them all off the top of my head. My wife also had to remind me of the "dwarf" shardow I saw in front of our bedroom. I had gone to get something from the kitchen, and had just closed the fridge door and was looking back towards out room. The laundrty is to one side, the garage door to the other, and our room's door and bathroom door in between. The little hallway's light was on, and while looking right at it, a small, skinny thing on two legs darted from the laundry to the garage. It was no taller than the doorknobs, and moved really fast... I saw two legs moving, and a sort of "stick" torso that was very dark and "smokey." I waited a few minutes to see if something else happened, but the food was getting cold, so I had to go through and tell her about it.

I thought about it being floaties in my eyes, but two things count against that:
- It moved from behind one corner, across the hall, and behind another corner. It also looked like it was running, with repetitive "leg" motions.
- I wear contacts, and very light-sensitive, and know very well how my eyes function in different light levels, from new-moon dark skies in the middle of nowhere to summertime deserts with reflections off the rocks and sand. I also know how my floaties appear in different conditions. This looked completely different (I even tried to replicate it using eye jerks and trying to get the floaties to move the same way - no luck).

My mom's come back to Catholicism in a hard way, and has the priest over for dinner at least twice a eyar (Polish tradition). The house gets blessed those time, too, with the priest walking around with holy water and sprinkling it in the rooms. Didn't work. But it was always fun to mention that when people suggested that the house needs to be "blessed".or whatever. Then, though would inevitably say, "Well, you obviously didn't use the right kind of priest! You really need to talk with (insert charletan of choice)! He's the real deal!"

So it always comes back to the same point - some wierd shit is going on, no one knows what it is, and people who offer advice on holy water, purifying salt, or garlic cloves know even less than you do.

DB