Is Revelations a Christian work?

[gstafleu]

I was wondering how Christian Revelations really is. So I looked up all occurrences of Jesus and/or Christ. There aren't many, depending how you count only 14 Jesus in all of Revelation. Compare that to over 500 references to the OT! (According to A History of the End of the World, by Kirsch). That suggests that Revelations could be a Jewish work that has been "adapted" for Christian use.

So, could some enterprising soul have inserted these Jesuses? Does the story change, or is it even affected, if we cut them out? Let's see.

First, the occurrences of Jesus:

JESUS
=====
Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

This is really the only place where our "editor" gets to show off his prowess. The original was something like "The revelation which God gave to me to show his servants what must soon take place."Or even "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to his servants to show what must soon take place."

Revelation 1:2
who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

An easy tack-on of "and the testimony of Jesus Christ." Remove it and nothing changes.

Revelation 1:5
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Another easy tack-on (and from Jesus Christ...), be it a bit more extensive. Or perhaps (see my final remark at the end) "Jesus Christ" was just "the messiah" in the original?

Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Two easy tack-ons in one: "in Jesus" and "and the testimony of Jesus." He could easily have been there just because of the word of God.

Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

An easy tack-on of "and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Revelation 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

You guessed it: "and remain faithful to Jesus." We can lose it without much consequence.

Revelation 17:6
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

We don't really need "the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus" do we?

Revelation 19:10
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

We can scrap "who hold to the testimony of Jesus" and the last sentence without much influence on the story.

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Insertion of "for Jesus and". They had been beheaded because of their testomony for the word of God.

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

"Jesus" has been inserted, so has "and the offspring of David". The interesting thing is that Rev 22 starts talking about "I am coming soon" in verse 7. Jesus is only mentioned in V16, it is not clear who the "I" is before that. Or is it? V13: I am the Alpha and the Omega... C.f. Rev 1:8: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God,... Here it is clearly god who is the Alpha and Omega. Jesus looks like a belated afterthought here.

Revelation 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Tack-on of "Come, Lord Jesus."

Revelation 22:21
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

The last verse, added for good measure.

Here are the occurrences of Christ:

CHRIST
======
Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

See 1:1 above.

Revelation 1:2
who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

See 1:2 above.

Revelation 1:5
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

See 1:5 above.

Revelation 11:15
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

Finally a Christ without Jesus. An easy insertion, though.

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

Another easy one.

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

We can do without "with Christ."

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Scrap "and of Christ."

A final remark. "Christ" is just Greek for "Messiah," and Judaism was strong on messiahs. It could be that some of these Jesuses were just Christs in the original.

So, what do you think? It looks as if we can cut out all Jesuses without affecting the story in the least. Could this be a Jewish apocalypse that has been adapted for Christianity, or is that just my wild imagination?

Gerard Stafleu

[Coleslaw]

Could this be a Jewish apocalypse that has been adapted for Christianity, or is that just my wild imagination?

Gerard Stafleu

Two of the books I've read on the subject have described it just that way-one of them used the term "Jewish apocalypse with Christian interpolations". I'll have to wait until I get home to look up titles and authors. I think it's a fairly well-respected view, although I don't know that it's the dominant view. There was a lot of controversy over including Revelations in the NT at all, though, and St. Augustine recommended reading it spiritually, not "carnally".

[Coleslaw]

Okay, I looked one of the books up. It's a popular treatment of the subject called A History of the End of the World: How the Most Controversial Book in the Bible Changed the Course of Western Civilization by Jonathan Kirsch. The other book is more scholarly.

[Clivedurdle]

http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/rjohn.html

http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/5951/ntb519c.html

[Coleslaw]

The other book I was thinking of is described here:

The Apocalyptic Imagination: An Introduction to Jewish Apocalyptic Literature (The Biblical Resource Series)

[Malachi151]

So, what do you think? It looks as if we can cut out all Jesuses without affecting the story in the least. Could this be a Jewish apocalypse that has been adapted for Christianity, or is that just my wild imagination?

Actually I think that many of the passages make more sense if you cut out Jesus, its not that they aren't affected, IMO they are affected to a more reasonable writing that looks more like something that would have been originally written, but its hard for me to say, I'd like to see commentary on this by a Jewish scholar.

They pretty much all seem like afterthoughts to me, except the reference in 1:5, which as you say could have originally said messiah, however without any further evidence, such as a copy of this without it, or any quotes from that show parts without Jesus where we now see them, its only speculation, though not idle speculation.

[gstafleu]

The other book I was thinking of is described here:

The Apocalyptic Imagination: An Introduction to Jewish Apocalyptic Literature (The Biblical Resource Series)
Thanks for the reference Coleslaw. I'm actually reading the other one you mentioned (by Kirsch). I haven't gotten to the part where he calls it a Jewish apocalypse with Christian interpolations (if he does that) yet. But you can see where I got the idea!

Gerard

[Coleslaw]

Thanks for the reference Coleslaw. I'm actually reading the other one you mentioned (by Kirsch). I haven't gotten to the part where he calls it a Jewish apocalypse with Christian interpolations (if he does that) yet. But you can see where I got the idea!

Gerard

It was Collins who called it that (the author of the other book I mentioned), not Kirsch.

[gstafleu]

http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/rjohn.html

http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/5951/ntb519c.html
Thanks for the links Clive. I noticed that the second one ends with the conclusion that "The Book of Revelation is no "mere" apocalypse, for it is the apocalypse of Jesus Christ - the faithful witness (Revelation 1:5)." And "... that the purely future orientation of Jewish apocalyptic is modified in the Book of Revelation by the conviction that eschatological fulfillment has already begun in the historical event of Jesus Christ." A bit heavy burden to carry for these 14 loose Jesuses perhaps?

Gerard

[Ben C Smith]

I have no opinion as yet on whether the author of Revelation was adapting a Jewish apocalypse.

However, it seems to me that a simple word search is an insufficient measure of how Christian the document is. Consider the slain lamb of Revelation 5; who is this lamb? What ancient mythical or historical figure explains why the lamb would be wrathful in 6.16?

For that matter, who is the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David?

The day of the Lord is a frequent OT motif pointing to the end times, but in Christian parlance the phrase could also mean the day of worship. If the phrase in 1.10 does not mean the Christian day of worship, what does it mean? Or is that phrase tagged on as well?

Who was it who died and came to life in, say, 2.8? Who is the messianic figure, called both son of God and son of man, who keeps promising to come?

Who is the male child of 12.5? See also the rest of that chapter.

Who are the twelve apostles of 21.14? There are Christian parallels to the false apostles of 2.2; are there Jewish ones?

Not that one could not come up with solutions to these problems. My point is that the reworking of an originally Jewish apocalypse looks like it would have extended to quite a bit more than the insertion of a few phrases here and there.

[Chili]

I was wondering how Christian Revelations really is.

It is Catholic, actually, and was written by the favorite apostle who Jesus introduced as Mary's son. His name was John.

[gstafleu]

However, it seems to me that a simple word search is an insufficient measure of how Christian the document is.
I don't think calling this just a word count is quite right. Jesus is the central figure of Christianity, but he is by and large absent from Revelations. Removing him from the few places where he does occur does not change the story. You cannot say that of the gospels or Paul's letters.

We know that an apocalypse is something usual in Judaism. We then also know that in the 400 or so verses of Revelations there are over 500 references to Judaic scripture. That does steer the mind towards an assumption of Judaism.

Sure there might be elements in there that can only be seen as Christian. But what could those be? We know from the works of Robert Price that not much in Christianity is original. The only thing that really sets it apart is Jesus, who has been sent by God to fix things up via his salvific death. That is what the gospels are all about and that is also what Paul's epistles revolve around, I'd say. But it seems to be absent from Revelations.

Something else that is maybe typical Christian is the element of forgiveness. Turning the other cheek and all that. It may not be original with Christ, but it certainly sets it apart from then prevalent custom. It is, to put it mildly, difficult to find any cheek-turning or forgiveness in Revelations.

So what are perhaps the two most specific Christian ideas, salvific death and forgiveness, seem to be absent from Revelations. That does not bode well for its Christian-ness.

Just a few words about some of the examples you mention. As for the lamb, isn't Judaism rather fond of its passover lamb? The fact that "day of the lord" could be Christian doesn't do much given that it could easily be Jewish. Same for son of man, who appears in Daniel. A male child born from some heavenly woman to do wonders is a usual pagan theme. So is the number 12.

It might be true that there are elements in Revelations that are typically Christian. But until someone points them out, with an explanation as to why they are typically Christian, the assumption must be, given the evidence that has been pointed out, that Revelations is an adapted Jewish document.

Gerard

[Coleslaw]

Originally Posted by gstafleu
Thanks for the reference Coleslaw. I'm actually reading the other one you mentioned (by Kirsch). I haven't gotten to the part where he calls it a Jewish apocalypse with Christian interpolations (if he does that) yet. But you can see where I got the idea!

Gerard

It was Collins who called it that (the author of the other book I mentioned), not Kirsch.

Actually, I was wrong about that-I skimmed over the Collins chapter on Revelation last night and Collins accepts it as a Christian document although he does discuss the difference between the way Jesus is presented in Revelations as opposed to how he is presented in the Gospels, and places Revelations within the tradition of Jewish apocalyptic writing. I know I read the description "Jewish apocalypse with Christian interpolations" somewhere, long before I read Kirsch's book, but now I can't say where.

As for it being written by "the favorite apostle who Jesus introduced as Mary's son", that was in dispute even at the time Revelations was accepted into the canon, although Kirsch says it was accepted into the canon only because tradition had it that it was written by that John.

[Ben C Smith]

As for the lamb, isn't Judaism rather fond of its passover lamb?

Yes. But the lamb in Revelation is a figure slain in order to save men by its blood (5.9, nullifying your contention, BTW, that Revelation lacks a salvific death), who is deemed worthy of praise (5.12) and is coming in vengeance. If your contention is that these things are a strictly Jewish interpretation of the Passover sacrifice, you will need to provide a strictly Jewish example of such an interpretation. Otherwise, it looks unabashedly Christian, since our sources attest Christ as having died salvifically, honored with praise, and presently to come in vengeance.

The fact that "day of the lord" could be Christian doesn't do much given that it could easily be Jewish.

If it is Jewish, what is it? The Hebrew scriptures are full of the day of the Lord motif, but always as a day of judgment at the end of the age. The day of the Lord in Revelation is the day on which John the seer saw his vision. If your contention is that such usage is strictly Jewish, you will need to provide a strictly Jewish example of that usage.

Same for son of man, who appears in Daniel.

Granted.

So is the number 12.

Twelve apostles? Does that not sound Christian to you?

It might be true that there are elements in Revelations that are typically Christian. But until someone points them out, with an explanation as to why they are typically Christian....

Calling Jesus a lamb is typically Christian (gospel of John), asserting that Jesus (the lamb) died a salvific death is typically Christian (gospels, Paul, many others), and expecting Jesus to come in judgment as the son of man is typically Christian (synoptic apocalypse). Most importantly, wrapping these aspects up into a single messianic figure is typically Christian. Is it typically Jewish? If so, who?

Calling a given day in present history (not the end of all things) the day of the Lord is typically Christian (Didache, gospel of Peter, acts of Peter, others). Is it typically Jewish? If so, what does it mean? (Moreover, the Greek for this phrase in Revelation uses the Christian adjectival wording with κυριακη, not the LXX wording with a noun in the genitive.)

The number 12 is Jewish. But twelve apostles... surely that is Christian (synoptic gospels, Acts, Ascension of Isaiah, others). Who are the twelve apostles in a strictly Jewish sense?

...the assumption must be, given the evidence that has been pointed out, that Revelations is an adapted Jewish document.

It may well be an adapted Jewish document. That is not what is at issue, since I mentioned that I as yet have no firm opinion either way on the matter. What is at issue is your assertion that our present text can be turned back into the original Jewish document simply by removing all instances of Jesus or Christ. I think the operation would have to be a little more involved than the mere excision of twenty phrases or so.

Ben.

[gstafleu]

Yes. But the lamb in Revelation is a figure slain in order to save men by its blood (5.9, nullifying your contention, BTW, that Revelation lacks a salvific death)
I was talking (or meant to do so) about Jesus' salvific death. But indeed, if we have Lamb=Jesus (which is under discussion of course) then we do have a salvific death of Jesus here. If we assume that the lamb is not Jesus, could this be a more "normal" sacrifice? Something tells me you are going to argue that "and with your blood you purchased men for God" is pretty Christian and not very Jewish...


If it is Jewish, what is it? The Hebrew scriptures are full of the day of the Lord motif, but always as a day of judgment at the end of the age. The day of the Lord in Revelation is the day on which John the seer saw his vision. If your contention is that such usage is strictly Jewish, you will need to provide a strictly Jewish example of that usage.

But is it Christian. Isn't the day of the lord in Christianity Sunday, as opposed to the day John saw a vision?


Twelve apostles? Does that not sound Christian to you?

It does ring a bell :). How close is "apostles" to something like "prophets"?


It may well be an adapted Jewish document. That is not what is at issue, since I mentioned that I as yet have no firm opinion either way on the matter. What is at issue is your assertion that our present text can be turned back into the original Jewish document simply by removing all instances of Jesus or Christ. I think the operation would have to be a little more involved than the mere excision of twenty phrases or so.

Fair enough, that assertion may have been a bit simplistic. Of course we have the added problem that Christianity can be seen as a modification of Judaism, which makes the contention that a given (early) Christian document is a modification of a Jewish one a bit of a well-duh proposition.

But still, the (relative) lack of Jesus mentions and the lack of anything like forgiveness, plus the apparently enormous amount of OT references, makes me think Revelation is at least a witness to some intermediary form of Jewish-Christianity. Maybe one where the Lamb had not yet been identified with Jesus? Somehow the passover lamb morphed into a messiah?

Gerard

[jakejonesiv]

I was wondering how Christian Revelations really is. So I looked up all occurrences of Jesus and/or Christ. There aren't many, depending how you count only 14 Jesus in all of Revelation. .... Could this be a Jewish apocalypse that has been adapted for Christianity, or is that just my wild imagination?

Gerard Stafleu

Hi Gerard,

You are exactly right.

Revelation was not originally a Christian work. It was redacted, with "John" expanding the prologue, adding the epilogue, and letters to the seven churches. (The seven letters section was a separate document). Notice the redundancy of Jesus with the angel. Notice the redundancy of John himself. How many intermediaries do you need? He also sprinkled some Christian references in the principal body of the text, but they are only surface glosses. Once that the redaction of John is removed, and this process is not onerous, the remaining document consists of:

1. A Brief Prologue
"The Revelation God gave his angel show to his bond-servants, the things which must soon take place. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.... "
2. Revelation chapter 4 through Rev chapter 22:6 minus Christian references .

This document identifies the conflict in question clearly. It is Rome (the seven hills, Rev. 17:9) against Jews in the reign of Nero (Rev. 13:18), which would be approximately 68 CE. Revelation was not written as a "recapitualation" of the Jewish rebellion, indeed it was composed in the midst of this war. It was not written to predict some events far in the future, it was about the events which would come soon to pass. Jerusalem was in a dire predicament, and it was believed by the Jewish author of the Revelation that only the interposition by God could save them (Rev. 19:1-2). The conflict concentrating on Jerusalem was increased to a cosmic level by the author. God would intervene because of the fidelity of the holy remnant (Rev. 7:4), and Rome would be demolished. The author was wrong. Dead wrong. Although the symbolism of the Book of Revelation is strange, the context is very clear, and not mysterious at all.

Jake Jones IV

[Ben C Smith]

I was talking (or meant to do so) about Jesus' salvific death. But indeed, if we have Lamb=Jesus (which is under discussion of course) then we do have a salvific death of Jesus here. If we assume that the lamb is not Jesus, could this be a more "normal" sacrifice? Something tells me you are going to argue that "and with your blood you purchased men for God" is pretty Christian and not very Jewish...

I would argue that the phrase and with your blood purchased men for God is pretty Christian.... :)

But is it Christian. Isn't the day of the lord in Christianity Sunday, as opposed to the day John saw a vision?

I think the sense is that John saw the vision on a Sunday (during Christian worship). He is not defining what the day of the Lord is.

It does ring a bell :). How close is "apostles" to something like "prophets"?

There is overlap, but not necessarily identity. The issue, however, is not what a phrase can mean; the issue is what a phrase normally means. Do you really wish to argue that a strictly Jewish author referred to the twelve apostles and meant some group other than that known as the twelve apostles in early Christianity? What would your evidence be?

But still, the (relative) lack of Jesus mentions and the lack of anything like forgiveness, plus the apparently enormous amount of OT references, makes me think Revelation is at least a witness to some intermediary form of Jewish-Christianity.

Oh, I will eagerly grant that Revelation witnesses to some form of Jewish Christianity.

Maybe one where the Lamb had not yet been identified with Jesus? Somehow the passover lamb morphed into a messiah?

The somehow points up the issue here. How exactly? (This is not a dare, just a question.) Your opposition has a fairly easy time of it at this point; early followers of Jesus had to explain the unexpected and shameful death of their master, and they latched onto OT ideas and themes as part of their interpretation, including and perhaps especially sacrificial themes. Hence Jesus as sacrificial lamb, Jesus as atonement, Jesus as redeemer.

In short, the lamb who died to purchase men for God by his blood and who is coming in vengeance sounds a lot like Jesus. Is there anyone, historical or mythical, that it sounds even closer to?

Ben.

[jakejonesiv]

... In short, the lamb who died to purchase men for God by his blood and who is coming in vengeance sounds a lot like Jesus. Is there anyone, historical or mythical, that it sounds even closer to?

Ben.

Ben,

Sometimes I have to shake my head in wonder. :huh:

OF COURSE the Lamb is a pre-Chrsitian symbol of sacrifice! The Passover, the lamb of the Exodus chapter 12; whose blood on the doorfames protected the occupants from the angel of death.
When the LORD goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down. Exodus 12:23.
We are so used to seeing the pascal lamb as a prophecy, type, or pre-figurement of Jesus that it is easy to forget that it originally was no such thing, and still isn't to those of the Jewish faith.

Jake Jones IV

[dzim77]

Hi Gerard,

You are exactly right.

Revelation was not originally a Christian work. It was redacted, with "John" expanding the prologue, adding the epilogue, and letters to the seven churches. (The seven letters section was a separate document). Notice the redundancy of Jesus with the angel. Notice the redundancy of John himself. How many intermediaries do you need? He also sprinkled some Christian references in the principal body of the text, but they are only surface glosses. Once that the redaction of John is removed, and this process is not onerous, the remaining document consists of:

1. A Brief Prologue
"The Revelation God gave his angel show to his bond-servants, the things which must soon take place. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.... "
2. Revelation chapter 4 through Rev chapter 22:6 minus Christian references .

This document identifies the conflict in question clearly. It is Rome (the seven hills, Rev. 17:9) against Jews in the reign of Nero (Rev. 13:18), which would be approximately 68 CE. Revelation was not written as a "recapitualation" of the Jewish rebellion, indeed it was composed in the midst of this war. It was not written to predict some events far in the future, it was about the events which would come soon to pass. Jerusalem was in a dire predicament, and it was believed by the Jewish author of the Revelation that only the interposition by God could save them (Rev. 19:1-2). The conflict concentrating on Jerusalem was increased to a cosmic level by the author. God would intervene because of the fidelity of the holy remnant (Rev. 7:4), and Rome would be demolished. The author was wrong. Dead wrong. Although the symbolism of the Book of Revelation is strange, the context is very clear, and not mysterious at all.

Jake Jones IV

I don't see much support for this theory in the book itself. The book is clearly concerning the apocalypse - the end of the world - not merely the war with Rome.

For example, how would this theory explain:

-the thousand years' reign in Rev. 20
-the 'white throne' judgement in Rev. 20:11-15 in which all those whose names are wrtitten in the book of life enter paradise
-the new heaven and the new earth coming out of the sky in Rev 21 and the passing of the first heaven and earth

There is surely something to the proposed context of persecution from Rome, but how do you know it is referring to the war against Jerusalem and not to Roman persecution of Christians? (as the book claims)

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Revelation 21:3,4

[jakejonesiv]

...Do you really wish to argue that a strictly Jewish author referred to the twelve apostles and meant some group other than that known as the twelve apostles in early Christianity? What would your evidence be?
...
Ben.

The redactor conflated the twelve apostles with the twelve tribes of Israel.

On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev. 21.

Further more, the fondations in Revelation are rendered from the tale of the twelve foundation stones of Jesus' OT alter ego, Joshua who in Joshua chapter 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=6&chapter=4&version=31) replicated Moses parting of the Red Sea when he cut off the flow of the Jordan river for the Ark of the Covenant to cross.

Jake Jones IV

[dzim77]

Ben,


We are so used to seeing the pascal lamb as a prophecy, type, or pre-figurement of Jesus that it is easy to forget that it originally was no such thing, and still isn't to those of the Jewish faith.

Jake Jones IV

Hi Jake,

The point is that the author of Revelation is saying that Jesus is the Lamb. According to your "Roman War" theory, who would you say the Lamb is?


8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"

13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!" 14The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
-Revelation 6:8-13

[jakejonesiv]

I don't see much support for this theory in the book itself. The book is clearly concerning the apocalypse - the end of the world - not merely the war with Rome.

The destruction of Jerusalm and the Temple equated to the same thing in the minds of the apocalyptic group (the holy remnant of Rev. 7:4) that wrote the original version of Revelation.


For example, how would this theory explain:

-the thousand years' reign in Rev. 20
-the 'white throne' judgement in Rev. 20:11-15 in which all those whose names are wrtitten in the book of life enter paradise
-the new heaven and the new earth coming out of the sky in Rev 21 and the passing of the first heaven and earth


As I said above, the orignal version of Revelation was written during the war, but before the final destruction.

What you have mentioned, the victory given by God in the form of eschatological events, is what these people hoped and prayed for. It didn't happen. Rome won, sucks for them; they were wrong.

There is surely something to the proposed context of persecution from Rome, but how do you know it is referring to the war against Jerusalem and not to Roman persecution of Christians? (as the book claims)
there was a little Christian interpolation, but even so,
since Revelation never uses the word "Christian" I wonder how you can make this statement.

Who do you think is the woman of chapter 12? ;)

Jake Jones IV

[Ben C Smith]

The redactor conflated the twelve apostles with the twelve tribes of Israel.

Further supporting my argument here that, if Revelation is an originally Jewish document turned Christian, the changeover required more than a few Jesus or Christ phrases to effect.

OF COURSE the Lamb is a pre-Chrsitian symbol of sacrifice! The Passover, the lamb of the Exodus chapter 12; whose blood on the doorfames protected the occupants from the angel of death.

That is not in dispute.

Ben.

[dzim77]

I was wondering how Christian Revelations really is. So I looked up all occurrences of Jesus and/or Christ. So, what do you think? It looks as if we can cut out all Jesuses without affecting the story in the least. Could this be a Jewish apocalypse that has been adapted for Christianity, or is that just my wild imagination?

Gerard Stafleu

I think Revelation was written to the seven churches to strengthen them to endure the current and future persecution from Rome. It seems not to progress linearly but rather to jump back and forth from present to past to future events. The main point of the author seems to be to portray the ulitmate triumph of Jesus and the establishment of the New heavens and earth. This would serve to give hope to those Christians being persecuted by Rome.

Notice in the seven letters to the church there are many OT allusions: the lampstands, the tree of life, Jezebel, "he who has an ear..", these OT allusions are all directed to the Christian churches. The allusions continue throughout the book as they are used to depict apocalyptic events.

Since Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of OT prophecy and religion, shouldn't we *expect* a Christian apocalypse to be full of Jewish allusion? If not, wouldn't we be even more suspicious of it's authenticity?

I don't see any solid reason to think that the book was anything other than a Christian work.

[dzim77]

The destruction of Jerusalm and the Temple equated to the same thing in the minds of the apocalyptic group (the holy remnant of Rev. 7:4) that wrote the original version of Revelation.


As I said above, the orignal version of Revelation was written during the war, but before the final destruction.

What you have mentioned, the victory given by God in the form of eschatological events, is what these people hoped and prayed for. It didn't happen. Rome won, sucks for them; they were wrong.

So, what you're saying is, according to your theory, the author of Revelation was expecting the end of the world to come during the war with Rome... the white throne judgement, the new heavens and new earth and the destruction of the old heavens and earth were all part of what he expected?

This sounds different from your original argument, but I see where your going with it.


there was a little Christian interpolation, but even so,
since Revelation never uses the word "Christian" I wonder how you can make this statement.

John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
-Rev 1:4

Because it's addressed to the churches.




Who do you think is the woman of chapter 12? ;)

Jake Jones IV

Seems to be a reference to Israel

[jakejonesiv]

... if Revelation is an originally Jewish document turned Christian, the changeover required more than a few Jesus or Christ phrases to effect.
...
Ben.

Hi Ben,

Maybe so.

The Book of Revelation, is similar to the Gospel of Mary in the fact that the resurrected Christ only appears in vision (Rev. 1:9). Christ is only a heavenly figure.

The Servant of Isaiah is of primary importance. The Revelation messanger (nominally Jesus) is identified as the Lamb, from Isaiah 53:7. This imagery is very powerful and goes back at least to the Exodus story.

Unfortunately, almost all Christians read Revelation through the lens of the gospels and whenever they see the Lamb or allusion to the Servant of Isaiah, they automatically see JESUS CHRIST forgeting entirely that these symbols held full meaning before ever the advent of Christianity. The Servant of Isaiah is of course never Jesus except in Christian theologizing. Orginally it pointed the the Holy Remnant of Israel.

The instances that seem to refer to an historical Jesus are instead derived from scripture. "Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him, and among them those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the world shall lament in remorse." Revelation 1:7.
Derived from Daniel 7:13 and Zechariah 12:10b.

We are discussing the possibility that Revelation was not a book of Christian origin at all. God is not called by his Christian title "Father", and the book is extremely violent and unforgiving and completely out of keeping with an universal love of God for humanity.

It was written by an apocalyptic Jewish sect facing destruction by the Romans about 68 CE. It expressed the vain hope that God would save them. It was then "Christianized" by a redactor who added the
prologue, epilogue, and a few additions within the body of the work.

Please consider that, according to my count, the name "Jesus" appears in only 12 verses in the entire 400 verses of our current Revelation.
1:1 Jesus Christ
1:2 Jesus Christ
1:5 Jesus Christ
1:9 Jesus
12:17 Jesus
14:12 Jesus
17:6 Jesus
19:10 Jesus
20:4 Jesus
22:16 Jesus
22:20 Lord Jesus
22:21 Lord Jesus

Seven of the twelve verses occur in the obviously additional prologue and the epilogue. All the remaining verses in the body of the book refer to the "testimony of Jesus," not Jesus himself. In the majority of the cases, the expression "testimony of Jesus" is used in conjunction
with "the word of God" or "God commandments." Those seem to be the later cosmetic additions, and the text makes perfect sense without them.

According to the existing text, the secrecies are communicated from God with Jesus with an angel to John (1:1).

The original text likely contained only God and the angel. The redactor fit himself and Jesus in an unnecessarily complex chain of transmission.
To be precise, the role of the angel (probably Michael) was replaced with Jesus, but left indicating signs of the original structure behind. The redactor assigned himself the role of the watcher to assert authorship.

The letters to the seven churchs show signs of the amalgamation with a separate document. The observer is twice instucted to write what he sees in a letter and send it to the seven churches, but then the
speaker dictates the letters. This indicates the inclusion of another text within the document.

Please note that the association of the Book of Revelation to the Gospel or Epistles of John rely most heavily on the vocabulary of the seven letters, which formed no part of the original, which resumes with 4:1.

Jake Jones IV

I have mislaid my reference for some of the above. Sincere apologies for the omission. I will supply as soon as I can find. i would appreciate the help here. :redface:

[jakejonesiv]

So, what you're saying is, according to your theory, the author of Revelation was expecting the end of the world to come during the war with Rome... the white throne judgement, the new heavens and new earth and the destruction of the old heavens and earth were all part of what he expected?

This sounds different from your original argument, but I see where your going with it.

Maybe I expressed myself more clearly the second time. Thanks for your patience.


John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
-Rev 1:4

Because it's addressed to the churches.


IMO that was not part of the original apocalypse. I said that also my first post on this thread.



Seems to be a reference to Israel
Yep.

Jake

[Dean Anderson]

It was written by an apocalyptic Jewish sect facing destruction by the Romans about 68 CE. It expressed the vain hope that God would save them.

The text of Revelation seems to indicate immanent destruction and "tribulations", followed by revenge on the oppressors and the building of a "new Jerusalem".

Given this theme, is there any particular reason to think that the text was written when the sect was facing destruction, rather than having been retroactively written after they had been mostly destroyed and being propaganda of the "Look, the oppression we have just undergone was foretold in this document that I have recently 'found' - and it further fortells that we will get our revenge and be victorious in the end!"

The latter would seem to fit the themes of the text better - since in the former case one would expect the themes to be about the destruction being prevented by God, not about the destruction happening but then being avenged by God and his followers getting the last laugh...

[hatsoff]

Although I do disagree with the idea that the Apocalypse of John was an adaptation of an earlier Jewish work, I find it interesting to behold the individual references to Jesus: how "Jesus" or "Christ" is almost always mentioned in conjunction with God the Father. It seems to suggest the author may not have believed in the Trinity, which is consistent with the early 95 dating most scholars espouse. Or is that reaching?

[gstafleu]

I don't see any solid reason to think that the book was anything other than a Christian work.
I would think that in a "real" Christian work you would find Jesus better integrated into the story. The problem may be that Christianity was not synthesized de novo: it got its ideas somewhere. For example, I agree with Ben that this business of the Lamb's blood saving people for God is pretty Christian, but as Jake pointed out there is a pretty obvious precursor of that idea in Exodus.

So when do we call a work Christian? What really separates Christianity from its precursors? I would maintain that at minimum this is the person of Jesus and the idea of forgiveness/God's universal love. Revelations is weak on Jesus and absent on forgiveness/love.

Furthermore, the Lamb, which seems to give an air of Christianity to the book, has some rather un-Christian attributes. Specifically, it is married (19:7, 21:9). Michael Baigent and Dan Brown notwithstanding, Jesus is generally not seen as married.

So yes, we can find some ideas in Revelations that we also find in Christianity. We also find ideas in Revelations that we don't find in Christianity. And some of Christianity's defining characteristics seem to be absent or at most weakly present. I'm not sure that we can call Revelations Christian on those grounds.

Gerard

[jakejonesiv]

The text of Revelation seems to indicate immanent destruction and "tribulations", followed by revenge on the oppressors and the building of a "new Jerusalem".

Hi Pervy,

Regardless whatever interpretation of the millenium should be, the holy city (Jerusalem) and God's people are not envisioned to be ultimately destroyed by their enemies.
They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev. 20:9.


...one would expect the themes to be about the destruction being prevented by God, not about the destruction happening but then being avenged by God and his followers getting the last laugh...

But that is exactly what Rev. 20:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020:9%20;&version=31;) says! So I don't understand your point at all.

It is definitely true that the author of Revelation describes great suffering and destruction, but he does not forsee the total destruction of the faithful. Things had become so desparate that only the divine estachological intervention could save the remnant. Rev. 12:17. He expects the faithful remnant to be saved, but in conjunction with the alleged end time events.

This is quite a common theme in the the Hebrew Scriptures, as seen for example in Zecharia 13:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zecharia%2013:8-9;&version=31;); Joel 2:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joel%202:32;&version=31;).

Jake Jones IV

[jakejonesiv]

Consider the slain lamb of Revelation 5; who is this lamb?

According to Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter XL, the Jews had an ancient custom in which the Pashcal Lamb was transfixed on two spits, one running the length of the body, and one across the back, to which the forelegs of the Lamb were fastened.

Who is the messianic figure, called both son of God and son of man, who keeps promising to come?

The imagery comes from Daniel 7:13. Again, I must note that all these images (Servant, Lamb, Son of Man) were pre-Christian, and available to non-Christian Jewish writers.

Jake Jones IV

[dzim77]

I would think that in a "real" Christian work you would find Jesus better integrated into the story. The problem may be that Christianity was not synthesized de novo: it got its ideas somewhere. For example, I agree with Ben that this business of the Lamb's blood saving people for God is pretty Christian, but as Jake pointed out there is a pretty obvious precursor of that idea in Exodus.

So when do we call a work Christian? What really separates Christianity from its precursors?

A Christian work would be expected to portray Jesus as the Christ.

If you accept the premise in Revelations that Jesus is the Christ, it should follow that the Lamb, the Lion of Judah, the child of Ch.12, the Rider on the White Horse, the Root of the Offspring of David...are all references to this Christ. In this light, Revelations is filled with Jesus from beginning to end.

You can see below that the ruler with the iron scepter (from Psalm 2) is the Christ. Jesus (in Ch.2), the child of the woman, and the Rider are all referred to as this ruler with the iron scepter, the Christ. It should follow from the context that the Lamb and the Lion of Judah are pictures of this same Christ figure.


'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
he will dash them to pieces like pottery'— just as I have received authority from my Father.
-Rev 2:27

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
-Rev 12:5

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
Rev 19:11-15



I would maintain that at minimum this is the person of Jesus and the idea of forgiveness/God's universal love. Revelations is weak on Jesus and absent on forgiveness/love.

I agree that Revelation does not emphasize forgiveness and love. Notice that the letters to the Christian churches in Ch. 2 and 3 do not emphasize this either - rather they focus on endurance, reward, and judgment - these are all very Christian ideas. The emphasis in Revelation is on judgement and the conquering victory of Christ... obviously because it is concerning the end of the world.

Recall how Jesus spoke of the end of the age in the gospels. It sounds a lot like the book of Revelation, doesn't it?...


As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:40-42

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:30-31

At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. Luke 21:27


Given these words of Jesus, shouldn't we expect a Christian apocalypse to take the tone that Revelation does?

Furthermore, the Lamb, which seems to give an air of Christianity to the book, has some rather un-Christian attributes. Specifically, it is married (19:7, 21:9). Michael Baigent and Dan Brown notwithstanding, Jesus is generally not seen as married.

Thanks for pointing that out :)

On the contrary, this illustration lends weight to Revelation as a Christian work. The illustration of Jesus as a bridegroom and the church as a bride is used througout the NT. For example:


Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. -Mark 2:19

You yourselves can testify that I said, 'I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.' The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. John 3:28-29 (John the Baptist)

I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.
-2 Corinthians 11:2

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies.
-Ephesians 5:25-28


So yes, we can find some ideas in Revelations that we also find in Christianity.

Yes, many of them.

We also find ideas in Revelations that we don't find in Christianity.

such as?

And some of Christianity's defining characteristics seem to be absent or at most weakly present. I'm not sure that we can call Revelations Christian on those grounds.

Gerard

[dzim77]

Shepherd
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. - Rev 6:17

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
-John 10:11


Water of life/Living Water
He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. -Rev 21:6

On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." -John 7:37-38


The Lamb
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, -Rev. 5:6

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! -John 1:29


Light
The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. -Rev 21:23-24

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
-John 8:12


Bridegroom and Bride
Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready
-Rev 19:7

The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. -John 3:28


God the Father
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. -Rev 14:1

For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. -John 5:18


Groups of Seven

Ok, perhaps this is a stretch...

The gospel of John is organized by groupings of Jesus' signs (miracles), teaching, and "I am" statements. There are seven signs (miracles), seven teachings, and seven "I am" statements of Jesus.

In Revelation we have the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven angels with seven plagues.

Coincidence?? Or does John just like sevens? ;)

[hatsoff]

Oh, I think there's a great deal of parallel linguistics between GJohn and AJohn. 1 John, too, actually. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the author of all three turned out to be the same fellow. Most traditions ascribed them to the Apostle John, though some suggested John the Presbyter or Cerinthius. In my opinion it was probably none of those three.

[Dean Anderson]

But that is exactly what Rev. 20:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020:9%20;&version=31;) says! So I don't understand your point at all.

Sorry, I was confused - I don't think I understand what I wrote, either.

mumble mumble... mustn't post whilst tired... mumble mumble...

[jakejonesiv]

OK, let me make my last comment before the thread goes completely stale.

In 1 Enoch chapters 88 ff, we find the little lambs, the sheep. one of which grows into a Ram which stands for the conquering Messiah. Try reading through here, and you will see just how much closer Revelation is to 1 Enoch than any purported text in the New Testament.

Hardly anyone denies that many (if not most) of the images used in Revelation (the Lamb, the Servant, the Remnant) were not originally Christian images, they were pre-Christian.

Also, hardly anyone denies that when Christianity came along, these images and symbols were appropriated and applied to Jesus and the emerging Christian religion.

We know the transition from Jewish symbol to Christian symbol had to have happened at some time. I am suggesting that in Revelation, we are as close as we are likely to get to seeing this process in action.

Jake Jones IV

[Clivedurdle]

Every so often I comment I was brought up with Dakes Annotated Reference Bible, as was any proper pentecostal.

There you will find, quite explicitly, all the references and more than you would ever have imagined to the old testament, because they believe the entire Bible is inspired - none of this OT is superceded stuff - it is dripping with references to Jesus and Christ - as one would expect if God wrote it!

Interstingly, this may give clues to the dating of all this. Look for the references to Enoch, OT, sacrificing lambs and see this as the early stuff.

Look at the rest of the stuff and think, that idea does not quite fit, what sort of christology is that, what happened, has someone tampered with something?

I wonder if the gospels are actually much later than assumed.

Assume a mythical Christ and look for the evolution of thinking, the tamperings, the later clarifications by someone trying to put something into a more modern idiom - paraphrasing did not start with the Living Bible.

Revelation is not a xian text.

[dzim77]

OK, let me make my last comment before the thread goes completely stale.

In 1 Enoch chapters 88 ff, we find the little lambs, the sheep. one of which grows into a Ram which stands for the conquering Messiah. Try reading through here, and you will see just how much closer Revelation is to 1 Enoch than any purported text in the New Testament.

Hardly anyone denies that many (if not most) of the images used in Revelation (the Lamb, the Servant, the Remnant) were not originally Christian images, they were pre-Christian.

Also, hardly anyone denies that when Christianity came along, these images and symbols were appropriated and applied to Jesus and the emerging Christian religion.

Jake Jones IV

Good points.

I still see no reason to think that Revelation is not a thoroughly Christian work. And a Johannine work at that.


We know the transition from Jewish symbol to Christian symbol had to have happened at some time. I am suggesting that in Revelation, we are as close as we are likely to get to seeing this process in action.

This is interesting.

We also have Pauline usage of Jewish symbols applied to Christianity... the lamb and the remnant to name a few.

Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
-1 Corinthians 5:7


So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
-romans 11:5

[Clivedurdle]

For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
-1 Corinthians 5:7

Thank you for quoting a classic mythicist text!

By arguing as you have, you need to be clear that Paul was a xian as they are defined now - he was not. He looks to me as a gnostic neo platonist possibly jewish writer who copied psuedo alchemic stuff about turning wine into blood and bread into flesh as an earthly magical copy ritual of a sacrifice of a perfect lamb in heaven.

I think we have more than enough clues to work out what most probably happened, but to do that we must dump the jesusdidit big virgin birth death resurrection scenario, and treat this stuff as part of the evolution of the religion. This also explains the fascinating lack of external correlation of an hj.

[dzim77]

Thank you for quoting a classic mythicist text!

By arguing as you have, you need to be clear that Paul was a xian as they are defined now - he was not. He looks to me as a gnostic neo platonist possibly jewish writer who copied psuedo alchemic stuff about turning wine into blood and bread into flesh as an earthly magical copy ritual of a sacrifice of a perfect lamb in heaven.

I think we have more than enough clues to work out what most probably happened, but to do that we must dump the jesusdidit big virgin birth death resurrection scenario, and treat this stuff as part of the evolution of the religion. This also explains the fascinating lack of external correlation of an hj.

that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
-1 Cor 15:3

Paul understood Jesus' death as prophecied/foreshadowed/pictured by OT events.

what does this have to do with Revelation?

[Clivedurdle]

Lamb?

[dzim77]

Lamb?

Sorry, I'm a little confused about your point? :)

Paul used the idea of the passover lamb to illustrate what Jesus did on the cross.

Revelation uses the idea as well.

I'm suggesting the idea of Christ as 'the lamb' goes back to Paul or earlier.