My 9-year old daughter wants to learn about evolution!

[Jehanne]

My daughter is in 3rd-grade public school this year. Last spring, while in 2nd-grade, I encouraged her to ask her teacher about "evolution." Her class was, at the time, having a unit on biology and the environment, so I thought that a "question about evolution" would be appropriate. (The topic of Darwinian evolution was nowhere to be found in any of her books, handouts, homework, etc.). Her teacher replied, "You need to ask your parents about that." Now in 3rd-grade she has made the same request of her new teacher who also told her that she needed to "ask her parents about that."

What is going on here?! I can understand an elementary school teacher's reluctance to bring the topic of evolution up "cold turkey," but is it right for them to refuse to answer one of their student's questions about the subject???

[Ultimate Atheist]

Yet teachers have no problems handing out bible's in school or teaching children reigious songs. It may just be the area I live in but that has happened here many, many times.

[Alethias]

What is going on here?! I can understand an elementary school teacher's reluctance to bring the topic of evolution up "cold turkey," but is it right for them to refuse to answer one of their student's questions about the subject???It's a dangerous subject for an elementary school teacher. Let's say hypothetically, that a grade school teacher is pro-evolution, and answers your child in a basic, simple way without going into too much depth. As far as the teacher knows, you'll protest it because it violates a young-earth-creation perspective. Or if they are anti-evolution, you'd certainly protest an answer the teacher might feel is correct. Even if the teacher explains in a way that you'd entirely agree with and be happy about, you have no guarantee that another child wouldn't hear it and go home and "guess what mommy! Mrs. Jones was teaching evolution in class today!" and a whole shitstorm starts when all the teacher was wanting was to answer a simple question.

It's a shame that the religionists have made it so hard, but anyway, that's the way I see it.

Alethias

[dettus]

Maybe you should teach your daughter about evolution. (I assume though that you already do, but does the teacher know? Maybe the teachers are just playing it safe so they don't have to deal with crazed parents.)

I know that when I was a kid I was interested in dinosaurs. I was also interested in watching animal shows on PBS. I was exposed to evolution and science very early. I talk science with my kids too.

From the little information provided I'd maybe have your daughter ask a more informed sounding question, a "question about evolution" seems very vauge and IMO probably sets off the teachers radar that you are religious parents. As far as what type of 'informed question' I don't know. I don't know what sort of biology they are teaching your kid. Something that already assumes evolution but gets the teacher to explain something in a bit more detail.

But yeah the teachers may be anti-science types or they might just be ignorant. The school may have some odd policy, etc. Again all the more reason to take it upon one's self to teach things to your own kids, and not just rely on the school (not YOU directed at anyone, just speaking in general).

[Jehanne]

It's a dangerous subject for an elementary school teacher. Let's say hypothetically, that a grade school teacher is pro-evolution, and answers your child in a basic, simple way without going into too much depth. As far as the teacher knows, you'll protest it because it violates a young-earth-creation perspective. Or if they are anti-evolution, you'd certainly protest an answer the teacher might feel is correct. Even if the teacher explains in a way that you'd entirely agree with and be happy about, you have no guarantee that another child wouldn't hear it and go home and "guess what mommy! Mrs. Jones was teaching evolution in class today!" and a whole shitstorm starts when all the teacher was wanting was to answer a simple question.

It's a shame that the religionists have made it so hard, but anyway, that's the way I see it.

Alethias

Public schools are supposed to be conservative educational institutions, that is, they are supposed to teach what is known as opposed to what is speculative. Okay, let's say that the teacher doesn't want to start an educational "food fight," but shouldn't they be able to have some handouts, videos, computer games, etc. for those kids who want to learn about evolution? And, if evolution is not going to be taught in elementary school, then when should it be taught?

[Jehanne]

Maybe you should teach your daughter about evolution. (I assume though that you already do, but does the teacher know? Maybe the teachers are just playing it safe so they don't have to deal with crazed parents.)

Yes, I try my best to teach her and my oldest son about Darwinian evolution, but I am not an elementary school teacher, so I do not know if I am being effective or not.

[Wyz_sub10]

In her teachers' defense, maybe they're worried about the exact opposite - maybe they think you're one of those parents who will be upset by teaching evolution, so they're ducking out.

[Jehanne]

In her teachers' defense, maybe they're worried about the exact opposite - maybe they think you're one of those parents who will be upset by teaching evolution, so they're ducking out.

Well, considering what "happened" at South Park, I guess that I can understand!

[CanoeMan]

Give your kid a note that says you're ok with her being taught the ToE at an appropriate level, and she can show that the next time she asks.

[Anat]

When my daughter was in 1st grade they had a unit on 'pebbles sand and silt'. The teacher expanded it to also include fossils, and added a dinosaurs unit, including accurate information about their ages. The students were required to choose a dinosaur and research it on the web. No way a Young Earther could have snuck through unnoticed. However it was not in the official curriculum.

In Washington State there are several Grade Level Expectations in science that address evolution:

By second grade, they are supposed to know that fossils provide evidence of plants and animals that existed long ago. They are supposed to be able to recognise a fossil and compare it visually to similar living organisms.

By 5th grade they should also understand that fossils provide evidence for the nature of environments that existed long ago.
By then they are also supposed to understand that different species survive better than others in a particular environment, and that within each species there is variation, such that some individuals have an advantage in surviving over others of the same species.
They should also learn about processes that change the earth surface - gradually (weathering, erosion, sedimentation) and abruptly (volcanoes, earthquakes, landslides).

All above strands become more elaborate and technical in middle and highschool. In 7th grade they should understand how the theory of biological evolution accounts for species diversity, adaptation, natural selection, extinction and change in species over time. In 10th they get into it in more depth - analyze the scientific evidence used to develop the theory of biological evolution and the concepts of natural selection, speciation, adaptation and biological diversity. Similarly they get into more technical understanding of geology and in 10th grade also cosmology.

[Jehanne]

Give your kid a note that says you're ok with her being taught the ToE at an appropriate level, and she can show that the next time she asks.

Isn't this sad, though, that parents have to give "permission" for their kids to be taught a major scientific theory?! As a parent, I am irritated at the "police pal" showing my daughter handcuffs, pepper spray, restraining straps for prisoners, etc., which, her school, ironically, has no problems showing her! And, no one has asked me for my permission on that one!!

[Anat]

Jehanne, can you find out what your state requires for science education at each grade level?

[Anat]

My daughter loves Our Family Tree.

Other promising titles can be found here.

[Jehanne]

Jehanne, can you find out what your state requires for science education at each grade level?

I live in Iowa. I'm not sure what "science standards" exist here, especially for elementary school kids. Besides, I'm not sure if I want to make "an issue" with the school or not.

[Jehanne]

My daughter loves Our Family Tree.

Other promising titles can be found here.

He has a 700 number, courtesy of Vonage by the way. But, thank you! Here's a wonderful Christmas present for one of the grandparents.

[Jet Black]

What is going on here?! I can understand an elementary school teacher's reluctance to bring the topic of evolution up "cold turkey," but is it right for them to refuse to answer one of their student's questions about the subject???

I think maybe have a chat with the teacher to see where he/she stands on the subject. I remember my old biology teacher, he was ace. he used to say things like "some people believe we didn't evolve, but that's a load of bollocks". The sort of stuff you can get away with in the UK. He also kept a human skull in his cupboard and refused to tell us where he got it from.

[BigJim]

My daughter is in 3rd-grade public school this year. Last spring, while in 2nd-grade, I encouraged her to ask her teacher about "evolution."
You Tube & South Park to the rescue! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ulfa4NSgzk)

[Anat]

BTW, my daughter (8 years old now, in 3rd grade) saw 'Darwin's Dangerous Idea' on my desk. The title inrigued her - what was the idea and why would it be dangerous? So I explained the basics (some of it she has already heard, obviously) and she was still wondering why such an idea would be dangerous. At that point I hadn't yet read much of it, so I mainly explained how the idea of evolution offended some people because they wanted to believe people were created specially, rather than evolved from other animals, and were closely related to other apes. She was still confused - and what's wrong with that? Since then, whenever she sees the book she comments - that's not a dangerous idea!

[Godless Dave]

I live in Iowa. I'm not sure what "science standards" exist here, especially for elementary school kids.

You have kids in school but you haven't researched your state's curriculum requirements?

[Jehanne]

You have kids in school but you haven't researched your state's curriculum requirements?

No. And, I suspect that virtually all parents here have not, either. I do have the National Academy of Science's standards, as well as their publications on creationism and evolution. I would need to look and see what the NAS has suggested for elementary school science curriculum, but, IMHO, if you are going to have a unit on biology, how could you not mention Charles Darwin????

[WishboneDawn]

Yes, I try my best to teach her and my oldest son about Darwinian evolution, but I am not an elementary school teacher, so I do not know if I am being effective or not.

As a homschooling mom, my advice would just be to engage them in discussions and then find out what they know from that. There's no special way a teacher can measure knowledge that would be more effective then you simply talking to them. In fact, you may be at an advantage as you have just your kids and hours to talk to and explore with them while at school the teacher needs to be concerned with 25 or so kids. Trust yourself on this.

Here's a great resouce I just found,

Understanding Evolution (from Berkley) (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/)

And here's a link I got from someone here that puts the christian creation myth in it's proper context...With other creation myths,

The Big Myth (http://www.mythicjourneys.org/bigmyth/2_eng_myths.htm)

[Godless Dave]

No. And, I suspect that virtually all parents here have not, either.

Well here they are: http://www.iowa.gov/educate/content/view/780/791/

[Jehanne]

Well here they are: http://www.iowa.gov/educate/content/view/780/791/

I will read them, but often standards are determined at the local level. I do not know if the state can enforce its standards or not, as the district school boards and principals often determine what textbooks to buy and teachers often have their own "interpretations" of what should and "should not" be taught.

[Steven Mading]

What is going on here?! I can understand an elementary school teacher's reluctance to bring the topic of evolution up "cold turkey," but is it right for them to refuse to answer one of their student's questions about the subject???
The teacher is afraid for her job. No matter what answers she gives, there is a signifigant chance that the child will have parents that object to that answer. Give the scientific answer, and if the child has religious parents they will raise a stink and make a big issue out of it. Give the religious answer, and if the child has nonreligious parents they will raise a stink and make a big issue out of it. The teacher is too afraid, knowing that telling the truth will lead to job harrasment. Which means the tactics of the fundies on this issue are working.

[Godless Dave]

I will read them, but often standards are determined at the local level. I do not know if the state can enforce its standards or not,

That's something else you could find out with just a little research.

[Rhea]

I agree with meeting with the teacher, telling her where you stand and asking again whether she will teach the topic.


Can you imagine the conversation, "My daughter asked her teacher about the USA landing on the moon in the late 1960s. The teachers said, 'you'll have to ask your parents about that'. Aren't you a teacher?"

I hope you feel comfortable stating your position. It might turn out to be a wonderful comfort for the teacher. And if not - maybe a little discomfort that would be a good thing. :)

[Rhea]

But in the meantime, and I speak as an "afterschooler" (the schoolhouse version of parental involvement aka homeschooling as a supplement), I'd say this will be a great theme for a trip to a library. If you're not comfortable with the topic, you can demonstrate to your child how to be curious, how to fill gaps in knowledge how to learn beyond what's fed you.

And all the while having a wonderful afternoon of comeraderie.

I'd say your daughter's teacher has kind of done you a favor. :) :) My kids ADORE when I learn with them.

[SweetReason]

Anat makes a good suggestion. Knowing what your state says your kid should be learning is a big help. Add your state's name to my subject line, Google that, and you should have thelink you need. Once you have that info, you can ask matter of factly, "When does this get covered?" rather than "Will it be"?

It does sound like a teacher who says, "ask your parents," has already been burned. All it takes is one set of parents hitting the roof when a kid comes home and tells them that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. I think a note saying "it's okay" probably isn't enough of a show of support for a teacher who has dealt with problem parents.

[Non-praying Mantis]

It does sound like a teacher who says, "ask your parents," has already been burned. All it takes is one set of parents hitting the roof when a kid comes home and tells them that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. I think a note saying "it's okay" probably isn't enough of a show of support for a teacher who has dealt with problem parents.

There is one other possibility. It could be that her teacher does not know very much about evolution at all. Redirecting the question is his/her way of getting around a lack of knowledge. This sad situation for science teachers (even in the elementary grades) is probably common in the US, especially with older teachers.

NPM

[Monkey Wrench]

Did your child ask the teacher this question "out of the blue" ? or did she ask the question in relation to a subject being taught ?

[WishboneDawn]

But in the meantime, and I speak as an "afterschooler" (the schoolhouse version of parental involvement aka homeschooling as a supplement), I'd say this will be a great theme for a trip to a library. If you're not comfortable with the topic, you can demonstrate to your child how to be curious, how to fill gaps in knowledge how to learn beyond what's fed you.

And all the while having a wonderful afternoon of comeraderie.

I'd say your daughter's teacher has kind of done you a favor. :) :) My kids ADORE when I learn with them.

Completely agree with you but I think we're on the same page. :)

[Jehanne]

Did your child ask the teacher this question "out of the blue" ? or did she ask the question in relation to a subject being taught ?

The latter. As I said in my OP, they were having a unit on naturalism, biology, etc. Her teacher had a "Venn diagram" on the wall, along with charts of various species but nothing about how those species were related! And, again, no mention whatsoever of "C.D.".