Death, little kids, heaven, blah blah blah

[BigJim]

My neighbors are indoctrinating their young children with the Jesus myth. I don't really have a problem with this; that's their business. They've seen my bumper sticker, and pretty much know my position, and we're still friends.

Well recently, his father died, and the family went to the funeral. I'm sure they told the children that granddad is now in "heaven". I'm sure that it helps make it easier for young kids when you tell them that the deceased is in a happier place. So, how do we, as atheists deal with this situation? Fortunately, my little one is too young to understand, but it's inevitable that we're going to have to have this discussion some day.

[CanoeMan]

Tell them the truth: nobody knows what happens when we die. There's nothing really that indicates that we go on living somewhere else, though.

It's just an unpleasant fact of life, like poverty, starvation and rape. They'll have to deal with it one day or another.

[Secular Elation]

I agree with CanoeMan. You just have to tell them the truth up front, it's better in the long run.

When I was 8 years old and had a developing understanding of the world around me, one day at night when I was laying with my mom watching TV, out of the blue I asked her about death, and she replied that when it happens we are gone forever. I remember becoming horrified upon her response but she tried to comfort me as well as she could. I feel it was the better thing to do for me, though, rather than try to wean me into any fantasy with a question like that.

[sugarbeth]

Of course we know what happens when we die - our bodies rot and are returned to the earth so that new life can grow from them. We're born, we live for a while and love, then we die. Easy. My daughter has known that since she was 2. The "heaven" stuff just confuses them, IMO. (And rightly so.)

[dettus]

It's very simple.

Being dead is like being before you were born.

People die to make room for others to live.

[555]

Just tell them that:

Even if I am cremated, my ashes can fertilize the ground and a seed will suck up my atoms and grow and into the cycle I go again. Eventually some day the sun will expand and suck up the earth and my atoms will be inside the sun and some day it will have a supernova explosion and my atoms will again form the dust that is used to form new solar systems. Perhaps one of these will have life and perhaps some of my atoms will be involved in that process and once again I am in the cycle.

Of course, it is no longer "me". None of that life will remember "me". Is that sad?

[Secular Elation]

It cracks me up that such sentiments appear common among atheists, at least at these boards, regarding death. To downplay the nonexistence aspect of it they like to wax on about how our atoms will go on and be parts of other things.

To which I say, so what? Atoms are repeatedly being exchanged in and out of our bodies throughout our lives. Atoms that were a part of us when we were 20 years old now belong to something else as we occupy different atoms at age 40. The fact that this atom migration will also occur after our death seems irrelevant to me since it was always an ongoing process anyway, if you think about it. I don't think such an explanation provides any comfort or solid conceptual acceptance of the irreversible and permanent loss of our 'being'--our consciousness, our self-concept, whatever you want to identify as. As long as I'm alive, I don't care at all what atoms are a part of me now or what former atoms within me might be occupying right now. I just care about being alive, still having a central consciousness.

I don't think worrying about death and wasting our energy on that fear is a good thing. But I don't think pseudo-poetic babble about the journey of our atoms is sufficient either to diminish the reality of death. I think the appropriate response is to just acknowledge death in all of its reality and understand that it is an inevitable part of life. We need not shower it with petty conceptualization in order to accept it more easily.

[Kemono]

It's very simple.

Being dead is like being before you were born.

People die to make room for others to live.

Why would BigJim want to lie to his kid that people die to make room for others? :confused:

[DreadPirateMick]

My dad explained to me that different people believe different things happen. He told me what he believed (that we just die) and what mum believed (that we got to heaven) and said I should make up my own mind.

[djrafikie]

When my kids guinea pig died (mummy acidentally ended its furry life with a lawnmower) I told her that betty was dead. Not breathing, not moving, not eating, just dead.

Kid stared at the corpse for a few minutes, said "ok", and then carried on playing. Since then other things dying don't provoke any particular response from her, no real questions, they're just dead. thats it.

*by the way, I did not RUN the pet over, it had a heart attack from the noise, although this is not what the nursery staff thought when kid told them mummy killed betty with the lawnmower. I was NOT popular with the staff or mummies for quite some time*

[Colorado Infidel]

I go with the "it's like it was before you were born" idea. That's exactly how I view my non-existence after my life is over. The universe got along without me before, it will again; and I'll have no conscious knowledge of anything, since I will be non-existent.

[dettus]

Why would BigJim want to lie to his kid that people die to make room for others? :confused:

It's not a lie. It's a very simple version of reality. Without death could there be evolution? If things didn't die wouldn't the Earth be overcrowded?

[Kemono]

It's not a lie. It's a very simple version of reality. Without death could there be evolution?

Natural selection has no foresight. It "cares" nothing about whether we would continue to evolve or not.

If things didn't die wouldn't the Earth be overcrowded?

Yes. However, natural selection does not benefit the species but the gene. If there was a combination of genes that would make the (human) individual immortal at a reasonable cost, it would (I should think) spread like wildfire.

The real reason we die is that it is more economical for our genes to make a new body once in a while rather than to make bodies that last.

[dettus]

Well I thought we were talking about explaining things to "little" and "young" kids.

[Straight Hate]

My neighbors are indoctrinating their young children with the Jesus myth. I don't really have a problem with this; that's their business. They've seen my bumper sticker, and pretty much know my position, and we're still friends.

Well recently, his father died, and the family went to the funeral. I'm sure they told the children that granddad is now in "heaven". I'm sure that it helps make it easier for young kids when you tell them that the deceased is in a happier place. So, how do we, as atheists deal with this situation? Fortunately, my little one is too young to understand, but it's inevitable that we're going to have to have this discussion some day.

Despite my parents, at the time, being devout fundamentalists, when relatives started dropping like flies when I was 4 (about 8 or 9 in total up until I was about 12), they never sugar-coated death or gave me that silly heaven line.

Kids can understand death very easily, and can probably handle its reality far better than adults. They certainly bounce back better.

[Kemono]

Well I thought we were talking about explaining things to "little" and "young" kids.

Yes, but don't you think it would be better to give a simplified version of the truth ('Humans die for the same reason that toys eventually break down from wear and tear' or something like that) than a completely fictional account?

[stagewhisper]

It's really interesting to me that you started this thread because I came here today to look for some secular advice in how to deal with my 8 year old son's teacher's death. It just happened two days ago. We're in shock, even though we knew she was sick and on her way out.
My kid believes in heaven. I didn't put that idea into his head, but somehow it got there. He believes in heaven but hasn't heard about hell, which is actually kind of nice. To him, the idea of heaven gives him comfort, and because he's sensitive and emotional (ie freaks out easily)I really don't want to challenge what he believes if that's what makes him feel better.

This death is the first one of a loved one (we live in a close community) I've experienced in a long time, and definitely the first since I stopped believing in heaven and hell. It's been interesting, because actually, as an adult, I'm more comforted by the opinion that the show is over when the curtain falls, rather that wondering if that person is somehow looking "down" at you and suddenly knows all your vices, secrets, and has seen you having sex. But I came to this way of thinking on my own, and after a catholic upbringing with all the fear, guilt and superstition that comes with it, I think that's a huge thing to let go of...

So, it's okay with me that my kid is comforting himself with the idea that his teacher is in heaven with my grandma and our black lab. As he gets older and is ready to handle it, I think he will be able to approach different or difficult thinking just like I did.

BTW, I'm looking for some secular poetry about grief that isn't too obscure or long winded...something I can share with my son. Any suggestions? Thanks for listening.

[Rhea]

We talk about dead being an end of a *person* in that they are no longer there to create new memories with us. At death, we must remember our memories to enjoy them. The person is gone. The body will go back into the system (we say, "like being recycled") But the thing that was "person" has gone from animated to "memories".

We also talk about OTHER people believing differently, so that our kids won't freak out their friends talking about it. And we stress that if another child beleives in heaven it is not appropriate for us to challenge that belief. We just nod and let them know we understand their sadness. Right now they are 4yo and 6yo. When they're older they will know when the challenge is appropriate or not. For now, just not.

[Rhea]

John Donne's poem that includes the phrase "for whom the bell tolls".
Children's book: the Fall of Freddy the Leaf

[Anat]

Michael Rosen's Sad Book (http://www.amazon.com/Michael-Rosens-Boston-Globe-Horn-Honors/dp/0763625973/sr=1-1/qid=1163131359/ref=sr_1_1/104-8430878-5117563?ie=UTF8&s=books)

[BigJim]

Despite my parents, at the time, being devout fundamentalists, when relatives started dropping like flies when I was 4 (about 8 or 9 in total up until I was about 12), they never sugar-coated death or gave me that silly heaven line.
That really surprises me. I'm under the impression that Heaven was made up to help comfort the grieving; you know "he's in a better place now."

Tell them the truth: nobody knows what happens when we die. There's nothing really that indicates that we go on living somewhere else, though.
My dad explained to me that different people believe different things happen. He told me what he believed (that we just die) and what mum believed (that we got to heaven) and said I should make up my own mind.
I like these answers. Thanks guys.

[Rayven_Alandria]

I told my children that although we have no idea what really happens when we die, I like to imagine that the body releases it's biological energy and it is absorbed by the environment, which includes us...so, in a way, the dead person has been absorbed into our body...plus, at a subatomic level we absorb each other anytime we touch anyway...so they are with us even if we weren't present when they died.

Then we discussed the idea that we *live on* through the impact we made on others, whether good or bad...I told them that I will be with them throughout their lives because I influenced who they are and will continue to influence their decisions even after I'm gone...so emotionally, I will always be there.

My goal for immortality is to positively influence generations to come.

[Mabus_Zero]

Myself, to the universe: I think, therefore I am.

The Universe: That's very nice, and I wish you all the luck in the world, but don't assume that leaves me with any obligations.

[djrafikie]

I got less worried after a general anasthetic, i went "out", no dreams, no recollection, then I woke up. It was'nt bad, i just wasn't "there".
If thats what death is, just nothing at all, then I can handle that.

[spamandham]

Well recently, his father died, and the family went to the funeral. I'm sure they told the children that granddad is now in "heaven". I'm sure that it helps make it easier for young kids when you tell them that the deceased is in a happier place. So, how do we, as atheists deal with this situation? Fortunately, my little one is too young to understand, but it's inevitable that we're going to have to have this discussion some day.

My son (14) lost one of his school friends just yesterday. There are no words of consolation to be provided. While my wife was busy gathering scriptures up for him to read (which was coldly received by the way), I was just sitting there next to him with my arm around his shoulder agreeing with him that this is difficult to accept.

We want to provide words of comfort, when what is really needed is just a sympathetic shoulder and ear.

[Straight Hate]

That really surprises me. I'm under the impression that Heaven was made up to help comfort the grieving; you know "he's in a better place now."


Indeed, which might explain why my dad is no longer religious and my mom rarely goes to church anymore.

[SweetReason]

(Hey,Stagewhisper,I have family in small town Oregon!)

Spam&ham has a good point that just listening is a big help.
One of the wisest comments on this I ever saw, in a book on grieving, was that, when someone dies, we can go on loving them, just as we go on loving someone who goes on a trip. Then we can ask what to do with that continuing love. That's what makes sense of customs like memotial donations, & bringing food to the family. Helping others who share our grief also soothes the helplessness death makes us feel.

[Converse02]

I with the "death is like before you were born."
It similar to sleeping without dreams.

Everyone knows what sleep is like.

[the alien among us]

i'm Athiest but i belive i in a soul and Reincarnation (i know it's not rational)
and ghosts. i may have no Evidence but that is what i belive

[Condraz23]

Just don't tell you children this...

"Compared to the great vastness of the cosmos, the ocean of deep time, my individual existence is a blip, a bubble in the foam on the surface of a flowing river. I am a momentary arrangement of atoms and molecules, an arrangement that lives and moves, to be sure, an arrangement that thinks, laughs, appreciates beauty, dreams, and loves. But a mere arrangement nonetheless, a transient state, an ephemeral gathering. Soon the blip will go out, the bubble will pop, the arrangement will dissolve, molecular bonds released by entropy. My consciousness will cease. But the molecules that once were me will still exist. The atoms that made up my body, iron, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and all the heavy elements forged in the crucibles of dying stars, will remain. Liberated from their temporary home, they will rejoin the rest of the planet, taking new shapes, finding new arrangements, becoming part of other life. I will become merged with everything.

I will become part of the trees that grow wherever my ashes are scattered, joining the eco-system of the forest. I will be in the slow green heartwood of the trunks as they patiently tick off the centuries, in the buds that burst forth in spring and in the leaves that explode with colour in autumn. I will be the sparkle of sunlight on the surface of a flowing mountain stream. I will sink into the earth and mix with the groundwater, eventually flowing back and rejoining the ocean where all life on this planet ultimately began. I will be in the waves that crash on the shore, in the warm sheltered tidal pools, in the coral reefs that bloom with life, and in the depths that echo with whale songs. I will be subducted into the planet's core and join the three-hundred-million-year cycle of the continental plates. I will rise into the sky and, in the fullness of time, become dispersed throughout the atmosphere, until every breath will contain part of me. And billions of years from now, when our sun swells and blasts the Earth's atmosphere away, I will be there, streaming into space to rejoin the stars that gave my atoms birth. And perhaps some day, billions of years yet beyond that, on some distant planet beneath bright alien skies, an atom that once was part of me will take part in a series of chemical reactions that may ultimately lead to new life, life that will in time leave the sea that gave it birth, crawl up onto the beach, and look up into the cosmos and wonder where it came from.

And the cycle will begin again."

[reddhedd]

Just don't tell you children this...

"Compared to the great vastness of the cosmos, the ocean of deep time, my individual existence is a blip, a bubble in the foam on the surface of a flowing river.....< SNIP>....
And the cycle will begin again."

Condraz, I have received permission to have this read or posted at my funeral.
It is no less true for being sentimental, and I love the idea that in my own atheistic way, I am as immortal as a theist's god. Always been here, always will be, in one form or another!:D

[Bradshaw]

Tell them the truth: nobody knows what happens when we die.

Ehhh.... I would say thats a toned down version of truth. Thats like saying, "well, there is this small possibility..."

We really do know what happens after we die, and that is simply our conscious self ceasing to exist.

I dont think that small children should be spared from the truth; like the truth is some kind of cruel and unusual punishment. It only becomes cruel and unusual punishment after you have been indoctrinated to believe that we are going to a better place after we die; just because we believe reality to be frightening does not mean that it inherintly is, the problem is that most people are taught that reality does have a greater meaning from god.

[Veovis]

I with the "death is like before you were born."
It similar to sleeping without dreams.

Everyone knows what sleep is like.

That's what I would tell my (hypothetical) children. I'd add that it's very peaceful, to take some of the fear edge off.

[BigJim]

i'm Athiest but i belive i in a soul and Reincarnation (i know it's not rational)
and ghosts. i may have no Evidence but that is what i belive

Interesting. I think that makes you quite unique. Why do you doubt the existence of God, yet believe in the existence of ghosts, and the soul?

[rationalidiot]

My neighbors are indoctrinating their young children with the Jesus myth. I don't really have a problem with this; that's their business. They've seen my bumper sticker, and pretty much know my position, and we're still friends.

Well recently, his father died, and the family went to the funeral. I'm sure they told the children that granddad is now in "heaven". I'm sure that it helps make it easier for young kids when you tell them that the deceased is in a happier place. So, how do we, as atheists deal with this situation? Fortunately, my little one is too young to understand, but it's inevitable that we're going to have to have this discussion some day.

I spent the early part of my fatherhood indoctrinating my children in the same way. My dilemma is, how do I go about reversing any damage done? I have come to the conclusion that the only thing I can do is b honest with them, and tell them I have changed my mind on some things and that I think I was wrong.

I don't think it's unhealthy in a funeral setting to pull a child aside and say something like, "You know, Uncle Fred was a good guy. Let's remember him by being the best we can be. Who knows, he may be watching over us."

This may seem silly to some of you in Europe since atheism is widely accepted over there. But in America, it's just as culturally ingrained to hope our dead loved ones are lingering somehow as it is that Santa Claus comes down the chimney at Christmas. Neither one is true in actuality as far as we know. I'm still kinda holding out hope for Santa though.

[rationalidiot]

Interesting. I think that makes you quite unique. Why do you doubt the existence of God, yet believe in the existence of ghosts, and the soul?

As an agnostic, I would like to believe in a god and reincarnation.

[Bradshaw]

As an agnostic, I would like to believe in a god and reincarnation.

I would like for god to exist as well, how nice it would be to go to heaven after I die. But, reality is that he doesn't exist. Sorry everybody! :banghead: