Texas votes to add "Under God" to its state pledge. [Archive I]

Worldtraveller

May 4, 2007, 12:21 PM

The Texas House voted early today to inject a little religion into the Texas pledge.
At least the newspaper is honest. The article notes one of the lawmakers that was against it. Also, the verbiage quoted towards the end of the article makes a lawsuit almost a slamdunk. It is explicitely religious, and it's on record as being such.

No hiding behind the (rather weak) mantle of ceremonial deism there.

Cheers,
Lane

athee

May 4, 2007, 09:46 PM

Good thing my kids sit that crap out. Fortunately they get little to no flak. What a waste of time.

naturalist.atheist

May 4, 2007, 11:17 PM

It's a good opening for a lawsuit that will further challenge the presence of "under God" in the national pledge.

With this current supreme court this would not be a good time to make that challenge. I would not put it past the theists to cook up a case just so they could get it in front of this court and get a favorable ruling.

Revolutionary

May 4, 2007, 11:23 PM

The motto of Florida is "In God We Trust". They couldn't even be original. And it's on the flag as part of the seal.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. I hate religion.

Frisco

May 5, 2007, 02:57 AM

Texas really should just secede from the union and declare itself the Texan Republic of Jesus.

pornstar/astronaut

May 5, 2007, 03:46 AM

When did they change it from this :

http://www.prongs.org/ministry/queersep

Majestyk

May 5, 2007, 02:27 PM

Also, the verbiage quoted towards the end of the article makes a lawsuit almost a slamdunk. It is explicitely religious, and it's on record as being such. That verbiage was cited as "analysis". Is it included in the legislation or can it be excluded from evidence presented in a legal contest?

With this current supreme court this would not be a good time to make that challenge. I would not put it past the theists to cook up a case just so they could get it in front of this court and get a favorable ruling. True. Being deluded is not the same as being stupid. Considering, Chief Justice Kennedy has included "moral concerns" within the purview of the Court, it is not unreasonable to expect that they would be cited in reference to the inclusion of "God" in a State's Pledge.

Hazy Daisy

May 5, 2007, 08:07 PM

Yes, we have a state pledge that is usually said with the national pledge each morning at schools.
WOW. I did not know that. I've long felt that the USA's hyper-nationalism has a lot to do with 12 years of daily pledges. I've wondered why Texans are so "patriotic" about their state -- 12 years of pledging loyalty to Texas goes a long way toward explaining that. Anyone know if any other states do these types of loyalty oaths? Washington doesn't.

With this current supreme court this would not be a good time to make that challenge.
With regard to the SCOTUS, we are totally fucked. I'd go so far as to say, it's over -- they won. The 2004 "election" was the clincher, really. It's been over since then. The damage that will be done to Constitutional law in the next 10 years could last as long as our country does -- if it makes sense to talk about it being "our" country when this court is through with it. Every bit of gain made in civil liberties, privacy issues, church/state separation, etc., since the 1960s is in jeopardy now.

Coragyps

May 5, 2007, 09:02 PM

I've wondered why Texans are so "patriotic" about their state -- 12 years of pledging loyalty to Texas goes a long way toward explaining that.

They only started reciting the Texas pledge two or three years ago, by mandate of the legislature. And, in the Handbook of Texas Online (http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/FF/msf1.html), we find the following hilarity:
In 1933 the legislature passed a law establishing rules for the proper display of the flag and providing for a pledge to the flag: "Honor the Texas Flag of 1836; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one and indivisible." The pledge erroneously referred to the 1836 national flag, known as David G. Burnet's flag, instead of the Lone Star Flag. Senator Searcy Bracewell introduced a bill to correct this error in 1951, but the legislature did not delete the words "of 1836" until 1965. In 1989 the legislature celebrated the sesquicentennial of the Lone Star Flag by incorrectly recognizing Dr. Charles B. Stewartqv as the flag's designer and also incorrectly recognizing Thomas Barnett, Sterling C. Robertson, Thomas J. Gazley, and Richard Ellis,qqv Lorenzo de Zavala, and William B. Scates, the 1836 flag committee, as the 1839 committee that approved the design for the Lone Star Flag. The legislature corrected these mistakes in 1992 by acknowledging that the actual designer of the Lone Star Flag is unknown and by recognizing Senator Wharton and Senator Jones for their efforts in adopting the flag.

I love this friggin' silly place......

dostfez

May 5, 2007, 09:21 PM

The rise of southern "old time" religion in the U.S is simply frighteneing........another small example.............

crazyfingers

May 5, 2007, 09:48 PM

A student may be excused from saying the pledges if a parent or guardian makes a written request.

That provision would appear to violate existing supreme court rulings that already allow students to skip the pledge without permission of a parent or guardian.

Revolutionary

May 5, 2007, 10:12 PM

Anyone know if any other states do these types of loyalty oaths?I've never heard of Florida pledge either. The whole Texas pride thing confuses me.

Matt the Medic

May 6, 2007, 02:18 AM

They only started reciting the Texas pledge two or three years ago, by mandate of the legislature. And, in the Handbook of Texas Online (http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/FF/msf1.html), we find the following hilarity:

I love this friggin' silly place......

We recited it every day K through 12, and I graduated 7 years ago.

Matt

Joyous

May 6, 2007, 12:06 PM

I don't understand the need for the state pledge. I keep asking people what it is exactly, that we're asking our kids to swear to. Allegiance to a state? What does that mean, when I can pack my bags and move to Oregon or Pennsylvania tomorrow? Am I being disloyal if I root for OU rather than Texas during the big football game? It's legally mandated nonsense.

Coragyps

May 6, 2007, 12:16 PM

We recited it every day K through 12, and I graduated 7 years ago.
Hmm. Must have been local option, as they didn't do it out here. And it appears to actually still be voluntary (http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/GV/content/htm/gv.011.00.003100.00.htm).

Am I being disloyal if I root for OU rather than Texas during the big football game?

No, more like traitorous. :D

CanoeMan

May 6, 2007, 06:32 PM

Wait, so you first pledge allegiance to the US, and then to your individual state as well? Seriously, that is fucking creepy.

crazyfingers

May 6, 2007, 08:18 PM

Wait, so you first pledge allegiance to the US, and then to your individual state as well? Seriously, that is fucking creepy.

Yes it is creepy.

Hazy Daisy

May 7, 2007, 04:20 PM

Entirely creepy.

orac

May 7, 2007, 06:13 PM

Hey guys, what's the problem here?

Texas has just ensured that it doesn't have a leg to stand on when anyone suggests invading Iran to stop them forcing children to pledge alliegance to the nation's head deity, being "the god of Abraham". ;)

(Yes, I know, that argument would never fly. But if there most be hipocracy in government, at least we should be able to laugh at it.)

wallflower1996

May 7, 2007, 06:33 PM

I don't see why pledging allegiance to two pieces of cloth is qualitatively more creepy than pledging allegiance to one.

Mageth

May 7, 2007, 06:39 PM

We recited it every day K through 12, and I graduated 7 years ago.

Matt

I went through 12 years of public school in Tx., and don't recall ever reciting the Texas pledge. But I graduated 34 years ago.

Mageth

May 7, 2007, 06:48 PM

...(the bill) will acknowledge our Judeo-Christian heritage...

I think Riddle needs to bone up on Texas History a bit, esp. the history of "Freethinking" in the State:

http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/1998/april98/scharf.html

LoneWolf

May 7, 2007, 09:51 PM

I'm going to find out who the five were and thank them all.

As a fellow Texan I am going to do this as well.

This is just rediculous.

scombrid

May 9, 2007, 10:12 AM

I think Riddle needs to bone up on Texas History

History smistory, read the Texas GOP platform from 2006. It truly is God's Own Party.

Mathew Goldstein

May 9, 2007, 11:30 AM

Wait, so you first pledge allegiance to the US, and then to your individual state as well? Seriously, that is fucking creepy.

Texans' think Texas is a sovereign country, not just a state like all of the other states. So of course they would not allow a US pledge without an equivalent Texas pledge. No surprise here.

Mageth

May 9, 2007, 11:50 AM

Texans' think Texas is a sovereign country, not just a state like all of the other states. So of course they would not allow a US pledge without an equivalent Texas pledge. No surprise here.

We do?

Please don't make the wrong assumption that all Texans are jackasses!

Mathew Goldstein

May 9, 2007, 12:08 PM

We do?

Please don't make the wrong assumption that all Texans are jackasses!

Texans in this context = majority of voting Texans.

Mageth

May 9, 2007, 12:33 PM

Texans in this context = majority of voting Texans.

I seriously doubt that a "majority of voting Texans" consider Texas a "sovereign country." I have live here all my life, and that's certainly not my experience. In fact, I don't personally know anyone who lives here who thinks that. (Oh, there's some joking about the stereotypical Texan and some state pride, but Texans generally recognize that they are Americans first, and laugh at more than believe in the stereotypical image of the "Texan").

And do Ohioans consider Ohio a "sovereign country"?

http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=1868

BTW, the Texas State Pledge was legislated in 1933. It's funny how all those supposed Texan Nationalists up to then didn't see the need for one!

And a bit of (abbreviated) Texas history: when Texas won its independence from Mexico in 1836 (for not the best of reasons - Mexico had outlawed slavery, and "American immigrant" Texans wanted to keep slavery), it was with the intent of joining the United States. However, the U.S. refused them (due primarily to the division of the States and the desire to not tip the balance to the slaveholding states below the Mason-Dixon line). That is the reason that Texas became a nation for 9 years. During that time, Texas continued to lobby for admission. Finally, in 1845, Texas was admitted as a State.

My point: your use of hyperbole represents (and fosters) a misconception about "Texans", that we're all a bunch of right-wing, overly proud State separatists. I'll admit that this State seems to have more than its share of jackasses. But all states have jackasses. Texas also has many reasonable people, as do all states. People like me, that recognize the problems in our State (and country) and strive to improve the situation. We recognize the good and the bad about our State and country, and strive to increase the good and overcome the bad.

Thoughtless comments like yours do NOT help.

Worldtraveller

May 9, 2007, 01:00 PM

Thoughtless comments like yours do NOT help.
Mageth has point. Hyperbolic comments like that are both off topic and ...well...hyperbolic.

Cheers,
Lane, CSS moderator.

Mathew Goldstein

May 9, 2007, 04:02 PM

I seriously doubt that a "majority of voting Texans" consider Texas a "sovereign country." I have live here all my life, and that's certainly not my experience. In fact, I don't personally know anyone who lives here who thinks that. (Oh, there's some joking about the stereotypical Texan and some state pride, but Texans generally recognize that they are Americans first, and laugh at more than believe in the stereotypical image of the "Texan").

I doubt a majority of Texans would say they consider Texas a sovereign country also, but surely you can see how amusing it is that this seems to fit that stereotype. Do any of the other states besides Texas and Ohio have a state pledge of allegiance ritual in their public schools? I suspect that in most states the voters wouldn't see any advantage in instituting a pledge of allegiance to the state ritual in the public schools. The differences in prevailing outlook within the states are sometimes signficant. Vermont's laws wouldn't be passed in Texas and vice versa. Its good we have separate state governments so we can live together under somewhat different laws.

Mathew Goldstein

May 9, 2007, 04:14 PM

Mageth has point. Hyperbolic comments like that are both off topic and ...well...hyperbolic.

Cheers,
Lane, CSS moderator.

And when Mageth responded to my post with "Please don't make the wrong assumption that all Texans are jackasses!" that wasn't also hyperbolic?

Transplanar

May 9, 2007, 04:35 PM

http://www.heralddemocrat.com/articles/2007/05/08/texas_news/state08.txt

House lawmakers voted 124-5 to put the words “under God” in the Texas pledge of allegiance recited by thousands of school children every day. The change mirrors the national pledge, which has included “under God” since 1954.

Coragyps

May 9, 2007, 05:35 PM

The final vote in the House, late Friday, was 124 to 12 in favor of adding the G-man. A bright spot:
Austin Democrat Valinda Bolton had an excellent statement of intent, and I wish all House members saw things the way she did on this:

"I am and have been a Baptist all my life, and the concepts of religious liberty and separation of church and state are firmly ingrained in me. Roger Williams who lived in the 1600s is widely viewed as the father of Baptist life in America.
He gave up a very powerful position in England and came to the colonies, fleeing religious persecution. However, even in the colonies he faced persecution because he wouldn’t worship as the leaders prescribed. In fact, late in his life he
was banished to an uninhabited island and expected to die there. When, by God’s grace, he prospered there, the leader of the colony sent him a scathing letter demanding to know why he hadn’t just gone ahead and died as expected.
Roger Willliams risked everything for what he believed. I have not been asked to risk as much, but my belief in religious liberty is that it is worth fighting for. It would be very easy to vote yes on this bill to avoid being seen as voting against God but I am very confident in my Christian faith and my relationship with God. I will be voting no and voting for religious liberty."

http://capitolannex.com/2007/05/05/house-votes-to-modify-texas-pledge/

I'll try to watch how things progress in the Senate.

Mageth

May 9, 2007, 06:36 PM

They should take the point in Bolton's statement and make THAT part of the pledge.

TxanGoddess

May 10, 2007, 12:28 AM

Matt, did you go to school in HISD?

I mostly attended private schools, but the few years I spent in Pasadena ISD, we never said the Texas pledge. I graduated 11 years ago.

Matt the Medic

May 12, 2007, 10:11 AM

No, I went to Klein ISD, north of Houston. My wife now teaches in the same district.

Matt

Waning Moon Conrad

May 13, 2007, 07:52 PM

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/4774748.html

Yes, we have a state pledge that is usually said with the national pledge each morning at schools.

Matt

Having a state pledge is sick. Very, very sick.

Joyous

May 13, 2007, 07:53 PM

Matt, did you go to school in HISD?

I mostly attended private schools, but the few years I spent in Pasadena ISD, we never said the Texas pledge. I graduated 11 years ago.

The law that public school kids must say it only came into effect a few years ago.

TxanGoddess

May 14, 2007, 03:49 AM

posted by Mageth:
Oh, there's some joking about the stereotypical Texan and some state pride, but Texans generally recognize that they are Americans first, and laugh at more than believe in the stereotypical image of the "Texan").

LOL, have you ever heard the "Real Men of Genius" Bud light commercials on the radio?

LMAO thinking of Mr Way too Proud of Texas Guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apMyjOAacyA) :Cheeky:

It's exactly what you're talking about here.

Mageth

May 14, 2007, 03:56 PM

posted by Mageth:

LOL, have you ever heard the "Real Men of Genius" Bud light commercials on the radio?

LMAO thinking of Mr Way too Proud of Texas Guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apMyjOAacyA) :Cheeky:

It's exactly what you're talking about here.

OMG, that cracked me up! Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about!

Jim123

May 18, 2007, 03:08 PM

In the Texas Constitution:

Article 1 - BILL OF RIGHTS
Section 4 - RELIGIOUS TESTS
No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

In other words:

"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office... provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being"

We Texans aren't without irony... and embarassment about our fellow citizen's backasswardness.

FWIW, the city dwellers are by and large less ignorant than the hayseeds, as a majority of us hail from the North anyway.

Jaggers

May 18, 2007, 03:51 PM

Matt, did you go to school in HISD?

I mostly attended private schools, but the few years I spent in Pasadena ISD, we never said the Texas pledge. I graduated 11 years ago.Small world. I graduated from PISD 13 yrs ago. (God I'm so fucking old.)

Jaggers

May 18, 2007, 03:55 PM

Having a state pledge is sick. Very, very sick.Sick?? :confused: Can you think of a more effective tool for the fascist state to create nice obedient automatons?

Scott M 74

May 22, 2007, 04:47 PM

Texans in this context = majority of voting Texans.Drew Carey once said there's nothing more useless than a Democrat in Texas. It's true. Texas is so conservative that the Electoral College makes presidential elections pointless.

blkgayatheist

May 22, 2007, 06:07 PM

I went through 12 years of public school in Tx., and don't recall ever reciting the Texas pledge. But I graduated 34 years ago.

same here, but I graduated 20 years ago

The Central Scrutinizer

May 23, 2007, 12:22 PM

Texas really should just secede from the union and declare itself the Texan Republic of Jesus.

Then what would we do with Austin? Move it to California?

Mageth

May 23, 2007, 12:40 PM

I went to my son's "graduatation" from 5th grade this morning. Got there just in time for the Pledge of Allegiance. Guess what? Afterwards, they did the Texas Pledge of Allegiance!

Silly that, IMO.

Mageth

May 23, 2007, 12:42 PM

Then what would we do with Austin? Move it to California?

Texas would put up an Austin Wall, and the U.S. could start an airlift to bring us supplies...

Magnus Armstrong

May 23, 2007, 03:38 PM

They'll just have to give up Sandra Bullock.

blastula

May 23, 2007, 06:34 PM

Mageth

May 23, 2007, 06:39 PM

Is that ever enforced?

No. It's made null/moot by Article VI of and the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

blastula

May 23, 2007, 08:35 PM

I would agree the Constitution would prohibit it, but it still may go on regardless if never challenged in court. Like the Pledge, etc.

Boro Nut

May 24, 2007, 07:34 AM

I went through 12 years of public school in Tx., and don't recall ever reciting the Texas pledge. But I graduated 34 years ago.Yeah. My gran's memory is getting like that too.

Boro Nut

Mageth

May 24, 2007, 11:50 AM

I would agree the Constitution would prohibit it, but it still may go on regardless if never challenged in court. Like the Pledge, etc.

I'm not sure what the "it" is supposed to refer to in the above. Invoking the "you gotta believe" clause in the Texas Constitution to bar someone from public office? That limitation in the Texas Constitution, as far as I know, has not been invoked to bar someone from taking public office. (If anyone knows of such a case from history, I'd certainly like to know about it.

And if "it" (more generally, roadblocks to non-believers holding public office) may still go on in Texas contrary to the U.S. Constitution, then "it" may also still go on in states that don't include such a limitation in their Constitution!

The ACTUAL problem (in Texas, and in other states) with non-believers (and those of unpopular faiths) getting elected to public office isn't constitutional - it's "attitudinal". It's not easy, and damn near impossible in some areas, e.g. large parts of Texas, for non-believers (read: non-Christians) to get elected all over this country. But that problem is certainly not unique to Texas.