Help with Faith

[SundayMorning]

Hello everyone, :wave:

I am a brand new member and I hate to start off begging, but I need some assistance.

I am so far from being a good debater it's crazy. I have been having an on again off again discussion with a friend for the past three years now. She is a devout christian and she insist that I would believe if presented with the "right" information.

We are now on the topic of faith.

An email she sent me:
What is your thought on faith? I think we have had this discussion before. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. If I see something before I get it, I don’t need to believe for it. Example: When I was without work for a year, I had to say everyday that I have a job. I will be working again one day. I think that sometimes in order to be convinced of something, a person has to be willing to accept it in order to see manifestation(proof) first…….

Ok, I understand what she means. We were both laid off together and I too had "faith" I would land another gig quickly. But it's not the same thing as having faith in the existence of a higher power is it? How can I explain this to her?! :huh:

Thank you.

[Selsaral]

Ask her why she doesn't have faith in Allah, menstrual blood magic, witchcraft, or David Koresh. Ask her why Muslims only have faith in Allah, and not God or anything else.

If she can't tell the difference between hoping to be able to find a new job and first believing in an invisible man in the sky before being able to find evidence for it, I don't think you CAN explain it to her. Needing to believe something before being able to find evidence of it is a primary indicator of crackpottery and rampant imagination. In no other realm is that thought process respected. In science, it's downright mocked.

[AthenaAwakened]

Have you ever had a job? Yes.
So you know that jobs exist? Yes.

Ever seen a god? <crickets>

THAT'S the difference

Peace

For more on faith Click here. (http://atheistempire.com/atheism/faith.html)

[JamesBannon]

Hello everyone, :wave:

I am a brand new member and I hate to start off begging, but I need some assistance.

I am so far from being a good debater it's crazy. I have been having an on again off again discussion with a friend for the past three years now. She is a devout christian and she insist that I would believe if presented with the "right" information.

We are now on the topic of faith.

An email she sent me:
What is your thought on faith? I think we have had this discussion before. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. If I see something before I get it, I don’t need to believe for it. Example: When I was without work for a year, I had to say everyday that I have a job. I will be working again one day. I think that sometimes in order to be convinced of something, a person has to be willing to accept it in order to see manifestation(proof) first…….

Ok, I understand what she means. We were both laid off together and I too had "faith" I would land another gig quickly. But it's not the same thing as having faith in the existence of a higher power is it? How can I explain this to her?! :huh:

Thank you.

Just to expand on AthenaAwakened's reply. Your correspondent is actually conflating two quite unrelated concepts: "faith" and "inductive" based beliefs.

If every day you go to work, you are perfectly entitled to conclude that, on the balance of probabilities, you will have a job tomorrow. That's inductive-based reasoning and is perfectly legitimate even though it doesn't guarantee the truth of the conclusion.

On the other hand if every day you see a flower in bloom and you say "god makes flowers bloom". This is completely invalid because there is no evidence available on which to base that conclusion. That's faith.

[Clete]

Have you ever had a job? Yes.
So you know that jobs exist? Yes.

Ever seen a god? <crickets>

THAT'S the difference
I think that pretty much covers it.

[MsChutzpah]

she insist that I would believe if presented with the "right" information.


Whenever some christian says something like that I tell them how I stopped believing when I was presented with the "right" information; information that is denied, squashed, and forbidden by the church and the clergy. For many years I had no exposure to anything of critical thinking, freethought, and real science. ALL I heard about; ALL I was taught was creation, Bible scriptures and 'god-is-love' , 'america was founded by christians on christian principles' bullshit. It blew my mind the first time I got hold of Thomas Paine's 'Age of Reason' and .......reeeeaallly REALLY started to read ALL of the bible!

"Right" information....indeed, Ms devout christian. Right back at ya!

[show_no_mercy]

Hello everyone, :wave:

I am a brand new member and I hate to start off begging, but I need some assistance.

I am so far from being a good debater it's crazy. I have been having an on again off again discussion with a friend for the past three years now. She is a devout christian and she insist that I would believe if presented with the "right" information.

We are now on the topic of faith.

An email she sent me:
What is your thought on faith? I think we have had this discussion before. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. If I see something before I get it, I don’t need to believe for it. Example: When I was without work for a year, I had to say everyday that I have a job. I will be working again one day. I think that sometimes in order to be convinced of something, a person has to be willing to accept it in order to see manifestation(proof) first…….

Ok, I understand what she means. We were both laid off together and I too had "faith" I would land another gig quickly. But it's not the same thing as having faith in the existence of a higher power is it? How can I explain this to her?! :huh:

Thank you.

I have faith that I can swim to the moon on my summer vacation. By her logic, this means that I will someday swim to the moon on my summer vacation. Funny how theists always have "faith" in things that happen regularly.

I'd reply to her "I've never seen faith move mountains, but I've seen what they can do to skyscrapers in downtown NYC."

[SundayMorning]

Just to expand on AthenaAwakened's reply. Your correspondent is actually conflating two quite unrelated concepts: "faith" and "inductive" based beliefs.


Yes,I like this! I knew there was difference I just couldn't pin point exactly what it was!

Thank you all for your replies and thanks to AthenaAwakened for the link.

I still don't think she's going to get it though.

We went to see The Passion and I kept asking why would god pick the most violent gruesome situation imaginable in order to save the souls of sinners? He had the power to do ANYTHING else, why that?

She just kept saying over and over again, "He did it out of love". I had to do everything in my power not to resort to physical violence. :redface:

Thanks again!

[Asha'man]

We were both laid off together and I too had "faith" I would land another gig quickly. But it's not the same thing as having faith in the existence of a higher power is it? How can I explain this to her?! :huh:

I have a standard definition for faith that is very useful for this type of discussion:

Faith: holding a belief with a conviction or certainty that is unsupported by the evidence.

You didn't have faith that you would get a new job, becuase you had perfectly good evidence that a new job was likely, thus your confidence was rational. You might claim that you had some sort of 'trust' in your ability, but that trust was earned in some form by years of experience.

On the other hand, religious faith is based entirely on nothing. The 'trust' is entirely unearned. You are expected to be absolutely certain that God is real, and that God is good, despite an utter lack of evidence for either proposition. In fact, you are expected to ignore a great deal of evidence that indicates God could quite easily be either malevolent or imaginary.

Faith is, essentially, bullshit. It is the abandonment of reason, the abdication of rational thought. A rational person has no need for faith whatsoever, and shuns the very concept as revolting.

Religions are entirely based on nothing, so they cannot allow you to realize that faith is irrational. In fact, in order for religions to exist, they must somehow convince you that faith is a good thing. This is the true danger to humanity that religion poses, it teaches people to abandon rational thinking entirely.

[Wasted Sapience]

I am so far from being a good debater it's crazy.

I've got just what you need! Start here, (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/) and continue here. (http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html)

[JamesBannon]

I still don't think she's going to get it though. If they're "committed" they usually don't.

BTW Welcome!:wave:

[Potoooooooo]

Hello everyone, :wave:

I am a brand new member and I hate to start off begging, but I need some assistance.

I am so far from being a good debater it's crazy. I have been having an on again off again discussion with a friend for the past three years now. She is a devout christian and she insist that I would believe if presented with the "right" information.

We are now on the topic of faith.

An email she sent me:
What is your thought on faith? I think we have had this discussion before. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. If I see something before I get it, I don’t need to believe for it. Example: When I was without work for a year, I had to say everyday that I have a job. I will be working again one day. I think that sometimes in order to be convinced of something, a person has to be willing to accept it in order to see manifestation(proof) first…….

Ok, I understand what she means. We were both laid off together and I too had "faith" I would land another gig quickly. But it's not the same thing as having faith in the existence of a higher power is it? How can I explain this to her?! :huh:

Thank you.

I think you need to find a better class of people to be friends with:p

[Gwen]

An email she sent me:
What is your thought on faith? I think we have had this discussion before. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. If I see something before I get it, I don’t need to believe for it. Example: When I was without work for a year, I had to say everyday that I have a job. I will be working again one day. I think that sometimes in order to be convinced of something, a person has to be willing to accept it in order to see manifestation(proof) first…….

Ok, I understand what she means. We were both laid off together and I too had "faith" I would land another gig quickly. But it's not the same thing as having faith in the existence of a higher power is it? How can I explain this to her?!

Thank you.

Except the last part isn't true. It's perfectly possible to get a job without having faith that you'll get one. People have landed jobs without even applying; people have applied for jobs thinking they won't get one and gotten them anyway.

The only things that you see if and only if you believe in them are faith-induced hallucinations.

Ever played "bloody Mary"?

[naturalist.atheist]

An email she sent me:
What is your thought on faith? I think we have had this discussion before. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. If I see something before I get it, I don’t need to believe for it. Example: When I was without work for a year, I had to say everyday that I have a job. I will be working again one day. I think that sometimes in order to be convinced of something, a person has to be willing to accept it in order to see manifestation(proof) first…….

She is pretending that faith is justified because it works. But does she really think faith works? How many things does she have faith in sight unseen without some reasonable justification? Would she use faith to cure her own cancer with prayer? It is all very well to pretend that you would accept something that is unseen if there are few consequences but when the stakes are high how many people actually do that? Would she quit her job based on the faith of an unseen better job when people can't find a job for years at a time? Most people usually do not. They look first. But having hope you will find a job if you are out of work has few consequences if you are wrong. You will still be out of a job.

This is a form of magical thinking. People tend to remember the times when "faith" worked but forget about the many more times when it didn't. But when you look at what risks they are actually willing to take on "faith" you usually find out that they really don't have much "faith" in "faith".

[Gawen]

How ironic, I just posted in EoG on faith and prayer. I'll reproduce it here.
What is prayer? Prayer is religious faith in both a god that at least listens to prayer and also miracles, which is what a god listening to and acting because of prayer. What is religious faith?

Well, the biblical view, or rather, definition is:
Hebrews 11:1: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

In other words, faith is a non-rational belief in some proposition. A non-rational belief is one, which is contrary to the sum of evidence for that belief. A belief is contrary to the sum of evidence for a belief if there is overwhelming evidence against the belief, e.g., that the earth is flat, hollow or is the center of the universe. A belief is also contrary to the sum of evidence if the evidence seems equal both for and against the belief, yet one commits to one of two or more equally supported propositions.

Belief in God could be either an act of faith or a belief based on conclusions from evidence and argument. If the theistic belief is an act of faith then the one holding the belief either thinks the evidence against belief outweighs or equals the evidence for belief, or the belief is held without regard for evidence at all. Otherwise, the belief is not an act of faith, but of belief that the evidence is stronger for belief than against, which sounds like Vital One's stance. It therefore behooves VO to supply the evidence so all may weigh it. If VO cannot provide evidence, all he has to go on is his testimony, which is no evidence at all.

Sunday Morning's debate partner wants to confuse religious faith. James Bannon has already addressed it.

I forgot, there's two other posts dealing with this starting here:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=206152&page=4
Post #81.

[Gawen]

I was thinking about it a bit more. I think Sunday Morning and his debate partner have rendered religious faith to nothing. They are using "faith" in such a broad way and stripping it of any theological significance the term might otherwise have.

Such a conception of faith treats belief in all non-empirical statements as acts of faith. Thus, belief in the external world, belief in the law of causality, or even fundamental principles of logic such as the principle of contradiction or the law of the excluded middle, would be acts of faith on this view.

There seems to be something profoundly self-deceptive and misleading, perhaps even intentionally, about lumping together as acts of faith such things as belief in the Virgin birth and belief in the existence of an external world or in the principle of contradiction. Such a view trivializes religious faith by putting superstitions, fairy tales, and delusions of all varieties, and all non-empirical claims (such as faith in finding a job) in the same category as religious faith.

[SundayMorning]

I think you need to find a better class of people to be friends with:p

No, I love my friend! She is a sweetheart, we just don't see eye to eye on this particular topic.

Asha'man that was beautiful!

Thanks for the welcome JamesBannon and for the links Wasted Sapience!

You all have given me plenty to work with.:notworthy:
I'll send my rebuttal and update you later.

[Goathead]

Whenever some christian says something like that I tell them how I stopped believing when I was presented with the "right" information; information that is denied, squashed, and forbidden by the church and the clergy. For many years I had no exposure to anything of critical thinking, freethought, and real science. ALL I heard about; ALL I was taught was creation, Bible scriptures and 'god-is-love' , 'america was founded by christians on christian principles' bullshit. It blew my mind the first time I got hold of Thomas Paine's 'Age of Reason' and .......reeeeaallly REALLY started to read ALL of the bible!

"Right" information....indeed, Ms devout christian. Right back at ya!





Agreed, id also like to add the obvious (hehe i love philosophy)


by definition any evidence which convinces you of Gods glorious existance would HAVE to be the "right" evidence, other wise it would be considered not-right evidence - just like all the other "evidence" which has not persuaded you to convert as of yet.

Evidently :)