Why The Gods Are Not Winning

[Minnesota Joe]

The Edge (http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/) has this article I thought was interesting. From the article

From:
WHY THE GODS ARE NOT WINNING
by Gregory Paul & Phil Zuckerman
(http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html)


Far from providing unambiguous evidence of the rise of faith, the devout compliers of the WCE [World Christian Encyclopedia] document what they characterize as the spectacular ballooning of secularism [emphasis mine] by a few hundred-fold! It has no historical match [emphasis mine]. It dwarfs the widely heralded Mormon climb to 12 million during the same time, even the growth within Protestantism of Pentecostals from nearly nothing to half a billion does not equal it.

Of course, this is for the non-religious category, but it is still a pretty interesting. I think it at least justifies skepticism about the alleged waning of secularism. :)

[clark]

Awesome article! Thanks for posting it.

THOUGHTfully Yours,
Clark

[Stacey Melissa]

Well worth the lengthy read! :thumbs:

This is the first time I have encountered the notion that the U.S. is uniquely religious among first-world countries due to its uniquely uneven wealth and health care distribution. That sounds like an idea worth exploring further.

[wordy]

Yes maybe that is a very important factor but I vote for that US is very religious compared to Europe cause US citizens are children or grandchildren of strong believers who emigrated to US having the goal to teach their offspring their religion, so the parent to child motivation could be important. A poll in Canada 1999 showed that if one asked church goers what kind of church they go to. 96% was going to same kind of church their parents goes to even if their parents didn't live or they moved out of town.

Cultural belonging seems very important. Otherwise if powerty was the main factor then people would go to the church that gave them most for their hard earned money. They don't, they stay in churches that steal all their money cause they are loyal to the faith of their upbringing.

That parts of Europe are so secular could best be explained that Church owned us from birth, so parents didn't have to take care of indoctrination of us, Church through schools did that. Every school in Sweden teached us Christianity up to late 1970 or so. We where not allowed to leave the state religion. Our King is still obliged to belong to the one true church here.

So people have been more of obligatory members here and not out of their own inner motivations which could be why we are more secular. To be forced to have faith could be less effective than to freely choosing to have faith.

To be forced makes one rebel against the oppression. Many atheists here are very much against the Priests but seems to find churches cute or ok to stay as they are. They don't hate the buildings, they love to visit them and care about them. But they have no interest in the theology, they visit the churches when there is no theological action going on. They have made the empty churches into temple of contemplation, de-sacralizased them to be secular owned by the atheists as cultural tradition temples.

Ok I overdo it but sociologists describe it in very similar wordings. Swedes seems to have faith in tradition and not what the tradition is about.

So I fail to see Europeans as less religious, we are trying to free ourselves from hundred of years of church oppression. But despite some 40% to 70% of Swedes being non-religious some 70% still are members of that church.

Members due to cultural belonging and not out of faith in gods. But all those "atheists" are better labeled as apatheists, they are totally indifferent to both theistic theology and atheistic atheiology. They simply don't care about the nature of God, they care about belonging to something that keeps tradition going.

If the Satanists burn down a church here then almost all the atheists give money to build it exactly as it was. Has happened several times here.

I think the Edge writers knows to little about european or Nordic ways of being cultural here. American and north European culture very different re churches and religion.

[ApostateAbe]

The Edge (http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/) has this article I thought was interesting. From the article

From:
WHY THE GODS ARE NOT WINNING
by Gregory Paul & Phil Zuckerman
(http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html)



Of course, this is for the non-religious category, but it is still a pretty interesting. I think it at least justifies skepticism about the alleged waning of secularism. :) It is certainly an interesting and encouraging read. I find Paul & Zuckerman's thesis that religion is due to economic factors unlikely. Religion is strong in third world countries where the poor need the comfort that religion provides. Religious adherence is low in rich Europe but high in rich United States, so they explain the exception of the United States with the laissez-faire phenomenon that a lower-class or middle-class family may lose it all in a short time with no social safety net, and so religion provides a back up. That doesn't have much to do with my experiences in Christianity. People in church seem to live comfortable lives. I suspect that religious trends are much too complex for any predictive model. I used to think that religious adherence was a matter of religious freedom allowed by the state creating a competitive arena of ideas, but Paul & Zuckerman make a good point about Australia and New Zealand having freedom of religion and low adherence.

[Mathew Goldstein]

It is certainly an interesting and encouraging read. I find Paul & Zuckerman's thesis that religion is due to economic factors unlikely. Religion is strong in third world countries where the poor need the comfort that religion provides. Religious adherence is low in rich Europe but high in rich United States, so they explain the exception of the United States with the laissez-faire phenomenon that a lower-class or middle-class family may lose it all in a short time with no social safety net, and so religion provides a back up. That doesn't have much to do with my experiences in Christianity. People in church seem to live comfortable lives. I suspect that religious trends are much too complex for any predictive model. I used to think that religious adherence was a matter of religious freedom allowed by the state creating a competitive arena of ideas, but Paul & Zuckerman make a good point about Australia and New Zealand having freedom of religion and low adherence.

Also, international comparisons of average science scale scores of eighth grade students (http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2005/timss03/tables/table_13.asp?popup=1) place the U.S. higher than Norway. Australia and New Zealand have similar eighth grade science scale scores as the U.S. So if U.S. eighth graders are more religious than Norwegian, Australian, and New Zealand eighth graders then that isn't because science education is better in Norway, Australia, and New Zealand.

[Stacey Melissa]

Education through high school in the U.S. is pretty much just memorize and regurgitate. If the items memorized are on the standardized tests, the students will regurgitate well, and look smart. Otherwise, they look like total dolts. Being good at memorizing and regurgitating info is not the same as being an effective critical thinker. And being an effective critical thinker is usually what it takes to cast off religious indoctrination.

[wordy]

Stacey, that could be true but it doesn't explain why Platinga and other much better thinkers than what I am and they still hold on to religion. I abandon gods already at ten years old and I very much doubt me to be a good critical thinker at that early age. I was incredibly naive already then and are even more naive now and still have no faith in gods. So there is something very wrong with that perspective. You could still get it right in some aspects.

So there is something else that is the primary source of their intellectual faith.

Feelings! They are motivated by their feelings towards a particular interpretation on how to relate to god. The intellectual claims is secondary but reinforcing that emotional attachment to the intellectual interpretation they defend.

[Stacey Melissa]

Stacey, that could be true but it doesn't explain why Platinga and other much better thinkers than what I am and they still hold on to religion. I abandon gods already at ten years old and I very much doubt me to be a good critical thinker at that early age. I was incredibly naive already then and are even more naive now and still have no faith in gods. So there is something very wrong with that perspective. You could still get it right in some aspects.

So there is something else that is the primary source of their intellectual faith.

Feelings! They are motivated by their feelings towards a particular interpretation on how to relate to god. The intellectual claims is secondary but reinforcing that emotional attachment to the intellectual interpretation they defend.
Alvin Plantinga and similarly sophisticated theists are extraordinarily good at coming up with rationalizations. That's not the same as being effective critical thinkers.

[wordy]

But there is something very wrong here. I am a very naive person. Despite this I managed to see through the myth of gods already as I was ten years old.

How much effective critical thinking has a ten years old?

I think too many atheists are into wishful thinking.

the reason so many Norwegians and Swedes and Britts are atheists are due to us having kingdoms and had a State that forced religion on us as an identity. We where born into Swedish Church, the only way to leave it was to be a Catholic and if you became an Baptist you have to emigrate to US cause to be other than Swedish Church was forbidden. Only very recently we got free of Church but that is an illusion cause they still has political power over it through parties having representation at church elections. State and church very much in connection informally.

The supposed "free" public service Radio and TV has religious services many times a day here. It is oppression and many swedes are atheists due to reaction to that oppression more than what you suggest. They are not skilled at effective critical thinking.

Do you not see that this is a much more likely explanation than what the Edge texts says. They are into wishful thinking.

Them ascribing their own wishful thinking on Europe.

[Stacey Melissa]

I think the varying levels of atheism among nations is probably due to a combination of the factors everyone has detailed.

[lpetrich]

Alvin Plantinga and similarly sophisticated theists are extraordinarily good at coming up with rationalizations. That's not the same as being effective critical thinkers.
In effect, they are making The Courtier's Reply (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/the_courtiers_reply.php) to "The Emperor has no clothes!"