Benedict in Brazil

[EthnAlln]

I'm surprised no one has yet posted on this topic:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/07/world/americas/07theology.html?ex=1336190400&en=34f757c555dbee9f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

According to a BBC report that I heard last night, the Pope has two main goals in Brazil. First, to crack down on all those defections to the evangelical Protestants, who are poaching his suckers flock. Second, to canonize an eighteenth-century Brazilian snake-oil salesman, who cured diseases by distributing scraps of paper with the name of the Virgin written on them.

Notice the NYT story mentions that he hasn't yet managed to wipe out his nemesis Liberation Theology. Is it possible he'll ever understand that his condemnation of social reform is perhaps a REASON why he's losing members in Brazil?

This Panzer Pope (as I've heard him called, a former member of the Hitler Jugend) might as well be straight out of the sixteenth century. Like the restored Bourbon kings of France, he has learned nothing and forgotten nothing.

[Californian]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/07/world/americas/07theology.html?ex=1336190400&en=34f757c555dbee9f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Notice the NYT story mentions that he hasn't yet managed to wipe out his nemesis Liberation Theology. Is it possible he'll ever understand that his condemnation of social reform is perhaps a REASON why he's losing members in Brazil? RCC has always told the poor in Catholic countries to suck it up. "JC thinks you're cool and your reward will be a nifty heaven for keeping your mouth shut."

Starting in the 60's, Jesuits and other priests disagreed, as the article notes. For their pains they were and are vilified and called Marxists. I was taught the basic philosophy behind liberation theology in Catholic High School. (Like the Gospels - the teaching and examples from the life of Jesus.) I guess now they are too busy watching diocesan investment portfolios to teach anything but sex, communism = bad. Following to the letter every burp from the Vatican/Pope = good.

And JC has become Superstar to be worshipped only. You don't even try to emulate such an exalted being. Paul won over James. Faith is all. Works are irrevelant - except for abortion.

[EthnAlln]

And JC has become Superstar to be worshipped only. You don't even try to emulate such an exalted being. Paul won over James. Faith is all. Works are irrevelant - except for abortion.

Yes, when I was a Catholic 40 years ago, that was the thing that struck me also. Theoretically it's all a matter of having faith and repenting when you fall into sin. That and the sacraments get you into heaven. But in practice some sins were much more important than others, especially the sexual ones. You must NOT get a divorce if you were married in the Catholic Church. And you mustn't touch yourself (after all, what are priests for?).

The other things that appeared to be right on top of the priests' priority list were the things that were "peculiarly Catholic," the things that set us apart from the mainstream of the USA, such as abstaining from meat on Fridays and crossing yourself with blessed water when you enter the church. These things seemed to be more important the the "social Gospel." Oh, yes, and referring to Augustine as "Saint AuGUSTin". That was important; I forget why, since all my Protestant friends said "Saint AugusTEEN."

[Aria]

Why do people keep talking about his participation in Hitler Youth? Every single person of his age at that in that area was in Hitler Youth. It was compulsory. Bringing it up is just stupid. There are endless reasons to mock and deride this man, but his being in Hitler Youth is not one of them.

[EthnAlln]

Bringing it up is just stupid. There are endless reasons to mock and deride this man, but his being in Hitler Youth is not one of them.

Mea culpa. Stupidus sum.

[Angra Mainyu]

According to a BBC report that I heard last night, the Pope has two main goals in Brazil.
I would add a third goal: to try to reduce the "risk" of a decriminalization of abortion, an issue that has been the focus of increasing public attention lately in Latin America.

The RCC seems to be getting seriously worried, even if decriminalization laws aren't likely to be passed any time soon, at least in most countries (but the recent law in Mexico City is making the Church very nervous, apparently).

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18569939/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/world/europe/09cnd-pope.html?em&ex=1178856000&en=21e42866e83a5267&ei=5087%0A

[xunzian]

I actually think there is a lot to be said for badass Catholicism as opposed to pansy ass-Protestantism.

Would you rather Jesus be like that effeminate dude that is making an awkward pass at you in the bar or for God to be a little more like Shaft, kicking down the doors of sinners with a shotgun in hand about to lay down the law.

If we are going to have a badass male skygod, we may as well have him be the stern father-figure he is supposed to be. I like the emphasis on ritual and tradition -- these are the things that build a society. I think he is going a long way to undermine that whole Vatican II, which is a just so much claptrap. Beautiful masses written by some of the worlds greatest composers . . . or nuns with guitars, come on, no contest.

The whole idea of the Catholic Church is social order, as opposed to the rampant individualism that is present in both Protestantism and modern popular thought. While I disagree with many of the decisions made by the Catholic Church, I think their methods are, all-in-all, commendable. Furthermore, I think that Benedict represents a wonderful return to this type of thought.

[Californian]

Mea culpa. Stupidus sum.:cool: Cogito ergo sum. And sometimes we throw in an aside that gets jumped all over by those wishing to derailitus.

Meanwhile, el papa has made such a fuss about abortion that his chances for success in keeping Latin Americans away from Pentacostals and further squashing Liberation Theology are zip. Talk about a derail. And he did it himself by telling reporters on the plane that Mexican bishops are correct to excommunicate the legislators who voted for and passed the OK for abortion in the first 3 months of pregnancy (Mexico City).

[Californian]

I actually think there is a lot to be said for badass Catholicism as opposed to pansy ass-Protestantism.

Would you rather Jesus be like that effeminate dude that is making an awkward pass at you in the bar or for God to be a little more like Shaft, kicking down the doors of sinners with a shotgun in hand about to lay down the law.

If we are going to have a badass male skygod, we may as well have him be the stern father-figure he is supposed to be. I like the emphasis on ritual and tradition -- these are the things that build a society. I think he is going a long way to undermine that whole Vatican II, which is a just so much claptrap. Beautiful masses written by some of the worlds greatest composers . . . or nuns with guitars, come on, no contest.

The whole idea of the Catholic Church is social order, as opposed to the rampant individualism that is present in both Protestantism and modern popular thought. While I disagree with many of the decisions made by the Catholic Church, I think their methods are, all-in-all, commendable. Furthermore, I think that Benedict represents a wonderful return to this type of thought.Agree. If soomebody forced me back to a Christian religion, I would overwhelmingly choose RCC. My concern is the conservative Catholic who won't choose a toothpaste brand without checking canon law. They pride themselves on being being called sheeples. The rest of the Catholics seem as diverse, independent and nutty as the ones I grew up with, but they're called cafeteria catholics and worse by conservative or traditional RCCers. Benedict likes the sheeples.

[EthnAlln]

Agree. If soomebody forced me back to a Christian religion, I would overwhelmingly choose RCC. My concern is the conservative Catholic who won't choose a toothpaste brand without checking canon law. They pride themselves on being being called sheeples. The rest of the Catholics seem as diverse, independent and nutty as the ones I grew up with, but they're called cafeteria catholics and worse by conservative or traditional RCCers. Benedict likes the sheeples.

Yeah, like HL Mencken, who said he admired the Catholic Church "despite its frequent imbecilities," I know there is much in the Catholic tradition worth preserving (like a dead butterfly, under glass). Its ritual is magnificent (but so is the Orthodox ritual, which has always baffled me on the occasions when I've attended Greek or Russian churches. So, for that matter, is the ritual of the Church of England, at least the high-church stuff. The last time I was in Britain, during the 1980s, the CoE had gone all evangelical and if you think nuns with guitars are revolting, you should have heard the hymns people sang. The principle of selection seemed to be "nothing written more than five years ago." Now that was a particularly bad five-year period in the history of British sacred poetry and song. The effect was appalling; it was awful; it was banal to the point of nausea. I'd rather have been singing "Yes, Jesus loves me. How do I know? The Bible tells me so."

Mencken also said, way back in the 1920s that the Catholic Church in the US was getting infected with Protestantism and its clergy were becoming argumentative. He said a bishop mounting his throne in his robes is an imposing spectacle, even if he sweats freely. But let him start bawling against Darwin from the pulpit and he immediately reveals what he is, the son of a saloon keeper from South Bend. As Mencken said, religion is a poem, not a proposition.

But real people suffer real pains because of the fairy-tale world that theologians live in. They set up factitious virtues, like prayer, genuflecting, crossing oneself, lighting candles, etc. And the clergy tend to think of themselves as representing the church, not the lay people. I think of those things when I am seduced by Catholic ritual. (And, by the way, I can still recite the mass in Latin. I haven't felt really inspired by any Catholic service since Latin was abandoned back in 1964, first in part, then completely. I left the church in 1965. Coincidence?)

[xunzian]

Losing the liturgical language is indeed a terrible blow to Catholicism.

Heck, if they still had a proper Mass, I'd consider attending Church! From there, I'm pretty sure they might be able to half-way convince me.

Modernizing an ancient, backward-looking institution is silly. One of the points of religion is to act as a stator on social progress. Sometimes, it is a huge pain in the butt, but that is its thing. Progressive Christianity, getting dragged along by society, makes about as much sense as a stator that moves with the motor.

[Mike Rosoft]

Except for that the world is not going around in circles; rather, it keeps marching ahead. You seem to be arguing that the stator of the car's engine should remain lying on the road, instead of moving forward with the car.

Likewise, the religion must adapt itself to the modern world; otherwise, it'll be left behind. And there's precedent; the Church no longer condemns people to death, or labels them as heretics for teaching that the Earth goes around the Sun and not vice versa.


As for the original topic (Mr. Ratzinger vs. liberation theology) - what would one expect from the former Chief Inquisitor? (Oops, sorry, head of the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" - it means the same, but sounds better.)


Mike Rosoft

[Overkill]

This guy is such a fucking freak. I wonder if everyone kind of sat him down and said "Ratzy, baby, you're the tits but you're more trouble than you're worth. You are a terrible PR man. TERRIBLE! Stay in Rome until you die." Of course, he didn't listen, and now he runs all around the world making his religion look psychotic, silly, and out of touch. Which is pretty damn entertaining.
If they ever need to straighten him out I'd gladly be the anti-Pope.

[Imnotspecial]

I don't know why you guys are getting all worked up over Ratzi. He hasn't said or done anything differently than what the dudes before him believed.

[DMB]

The RC church led by friend Ratzi continues its crusade against abortion. So now in Nicaragua, all abortion is banned. This includes for cases of ectopic pregnancy, where there is no chance of a living baby being delivered and where if there is no abortion the mother will die. But after all, what is the life of a living human being when weighed in the balance against the sacred status of a foetus?

[Imnotspecial]

The RC church led by friend Ratzi continues its crusade against abortion. So now in Nicaragua, all abortion is banned. This includes for cases of ectopic pregnancy, where there is no chance of a living baby being delivered and where if there is no abortion the mother will die. But after all, what is the life of a living human being when weighed in the balance against the sacred status of a foetus?

What is the poor guy supposed to do. After all he and his predessesors are infallible.

[Mike Rosoft]

He should "infallibly" declare that he's not infallible. :-)

(And yes, I am aware that not everything the pope says is infallible; see Papal infallibility. [That's why the proponents of women's ordination do not accept the Vatican's ban as infallible, believing that the conditions for infallibility have not been met (http://www.womenpriests.org/teaching/mag_con1.asp).])


Mike Rosoft

[xunzian]

Not at all. From the way I understand history, it seems quite progressive. Humans are always marching towards the next big thing and away from the past and the present. Gradually, gradually, gradually making the world a better place to live.

To continue with my recent trend of autoplagarization:
In his introduction to the Daodejing, Wang Bi (a political commentator) wrote:

"Even if you could hurry by running with the speed of lightning, it would still not be fast enough to get there and back in a single instant. Even if you could travel by riding the wind, it would still not be fast enough to arrive in a single breath. Being good at making quick progress lies in not hurrying, and being good at reaching goals lies in not forcing one's way."

I think this idea of hurrying-by-not-hurrying is central to my idea of political progress and I think it is borne out by history. England has enjoyed a fairly slow march towards increasing the people's political access. The system that was produced has been stable. France, on the other hand, wanted democracy *now*, so they made the immediate shift from Absolutism to Republicanism then almost immediately back to a dictatorship then to a Constitutional Monarchy, then an Absolute Monarchy (more declared than actually experienced), then back to a Republic, then back to a dictatorship (or Empire, depending on your views of the situation), followed by a healthy dose of sabre-rattling (what Emperors do best!) then back to Republic, then to a puppet government, then back to republic (but one that allows fascists to have a dangerous amount of influence). I may have missed a few steps in the French progression.

But the same situation has played out in Russia. Capitalism NOW reforms fail for a variety of reasons, so rather than some progress, nearly no progress is made. Russia gets trounced in war and you get demands for Democracy and, capitalism NOW. That quickly segues into Communism NOW, a system that managed to, within a generation, re-create many of the problems that were rebelled against in the first place! But, say what you will about the USSR, it invested heavily in infrastructure. Not necessarily quality infrastructure, but that is neither here-nor-there. So, you get a gradual increase in the standard of living for the average person living there and (post-Stalin) and gradual drift towards more democracy and more capitalism within a rigid system. Russia is still playing with that balance, but it is doing a fairly good job at marching towards the future.

Gradual change is better than quick change because it allows for the shift in conciousness and infrastructure necessary for true movement forward. Quick changes make history stutter, with the steps backwards often nearly outweighing the steps forward!

In this march, religion is one of the things that keeps it from going too fast, from spinning out of control and becoming non-functional. People want fast change, we want a perfect world now, and a world that is perfect according to our perceptions. However, these perceptions tend to be overly simplistic and can have many unfortunate results because of that. Religion stands there like an old nagging mother saying, "Not so fast, not so fast." and like that old nagging mother, it can often help prevent unnecessary injury -- but it can likewise be a burden.

And I would argue about the cyclical nature of things, but that is another thread. We are spiraling towards the future.


I think that Benedict represents what I am talking about here. I certainly oppose most of his policies, but I think that the dynamic tension between the world he is working on reclaiming and the world we are trying to build will create both a different world for us and for him.

[Californian]

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/index.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Because of Benedict's war on liberation theology, the WaPost in their On Faith section has a panel discussion on whether or not JC was a social revolutinary. One way or another, they basically all say yes.

Sample:
Jesus—at least for myself as a Christian—exemplified the justice of God over against the injustice of imperial power. He incarnated the radicality of God’s non-violence over against the normalcy of civilization’ violence.

Finally, in a New York Times article entitled “As Pope Heads to Brazil, a Rival Theology Persists” (May 7) Larry Rohter quoted this papal assertion: “As John Paul II put it early in his papacy: “This conception of Christ as a political figure, a revolutionary, as the subversive of Nazareth, does not tally with the church’s catechism.’”

If that is true, the problem may be with Rome’s catechism and not with Brazil’s theology.

Posted by John Dominic Crossan on May 11, 2007 9:33 AM
Another:
In Latin America, where the Pope is visiting, many were attracted to liberation theology precisely because it is a kind of worldly revolution, relying on government to provide justice for the poor. Most, however, have since spurned liberation theology as they discovered governments are at worst, corrupt, and at best, impotent.

The poor have turned instead to the Pentecostal church and other exploding expressions of evangelical Christianity where the gospel changed people’s lives. Wives got their families back as husbands stayed home from the bars. Street children found shelter and hope as Christians lived out their duty to care for the helpless in their midst. Jesus’ revolution delivered the goods—saving homes, marriages, and communities.

Posted by Charles "Chuck" Colson on May 11, 2007 8:09 AM Liberation theology stopped trying to reform governments ages ago - lost cause. They and the Pentecostals operate similarly at the personal level, creating community with help and reinforcement through the community itself.

Benedict is threatened by both groups. Moderating, slowing influence? I think not. This is the Vatican mind-set that got Galileo permanent house arrest.

[espritch]

Meanwhile, el papa has made such a fuss about abortion that his chances for success in keeping Latin Americans away from Pentacostals and further squashing Liberation Theology are zip. Talk about a derail. And he did it himself by telling reporters on the plane that Mexican bishops are correct to excommunicate the legislators who voted for and passed the OK for abortion in the first 3 months of pregnancy (Mexico City).

Like the Monty Python song says: "Every sperm is sacred!"

[Overkill]

Every Sperm is Great! If a Sperm Gets Wasted God Gets Quite Irate!
/"Why I could walk right down into the pharmacy, look the pharmacist straight in the eye and say 'I am a protestant. I desire condoms.' "
//"Weeeelll, why don't you?

[DMB]

Every Sperm is Great! If a Sperm Gets Wasted God Gets Quite Irate!
/"Why I could walk right down into the pharmacy, look the pharmacist straight in the eye and say 'I am a protestant. I desire condoms.' "
//"Weeeelll, why don't you?

I like "Let the heathens spill theirs on the dusty ground;
"God will make them pay for each sperm that can't be found."

[EthnAlln]

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/index.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Because of Benedict's war on liberation theology, the WaPost in their On Faith section has a panel discussion on whether or not JC was a social revolutinary. One way or another, they basically all say yes.

Sample:


Jesus—at least for myself as a Christian—exemplified the justice of God over against the injustice of imperial power. He incarnated the radicality of God’s non-violence over against the normalcy of civilization’ violence.

Finally, in a New York Times article entitled “As Pope Heads to Brazil, a Rival Theology Persists” (May 7) Larry Rohter quoted this papal assertion: “As John Paul II put it early in his papacy: “This conception of Christ as a political figure, a revolutionary, as the subversive of Nazareth, does not tally with the church’s catechism.’”

If that is true, the problem may be with Rome’s catechism and not with Brazil’s theology.

Posted by John Dominic Crossan on May 11, 2007 9:33 AM



That name looks familiar to me. Is this the guy who frequently appears on the Biblical-theme shows on the History Channel? He has a thick Irish accent.

[Malachi151]

I think the Pope is taking the wrong approach by saying that Brazilians must practice abstinence. That's not really a good way to win converts...

[Triple Six]

Why do people keep talking about his participation in Hitler Youth? Every single person of his age at that in that area was in Hitler Youth. It was compulsory. Bringing it up is just stupid. There are endless reasons to mock and deride this man, but his being in Hitler Youth is not one of them.

On the contrary, membership of the Hitler Youth was never compulsory. Granted it made life much easier if you did join it and TBH if I was in the same situation I would have very probably taken that option.

Then again I am not claiming to be god's representative on Earth, blessed with infallibility and the supreme moral arbiter.

It is because of these claims that a different standard applies to him. Surely god's chosen representative would have the vision and moral courage to keep away from the nazis?

It is more than fair to refer to his Hitler Youth background, if anything the problem is that it distracts from far the greater faults in him, such as his ban on condoms which has already sent millions to their deaths with more to come.

However his utterly stupid and idiotic proclamations, as his Brazil visit further illustrates are doing the catholic church endless harm in more developed countries, long may they continue.:devil1:

[EthnAlln]

On the contrary, membership of the Hitler Youth was never compulsory. Granted it made life much easier if you did join it and TBH if I was in the same situation I would have very probably taken that option.

Supposedly, it was compulsory for all young men after 1936. However, I'm dubious. There are almost always ways of getting around these things. Theoretically, any alien residing in the US is supposed to register and report to INS every year. (Now stop that laughing! I'm losing my train of thought.)



Then again I am not claiming to be god's representative on Earth, blessed with infallibility and the supreme moral arbiter.

This, to me, is the supreme problem. I can understand morality as an expression of a societal consensus or as an expression of the kind of world an individual wants to live in. But the Pope proclaims his morality as a fact incumbent on everyone. And he gets it from an oracle that comes with no substantial evidence that it gives practical answers to questions. Indeed, he claims to BE that oracle on some occasions.


It is more than fair to refer to his Hitler Youth background, if anything the problem is that it distracts from far the greater faults in him, such as his ban on condoms which has already sent millions to their deaths with more to come.

However his utterly stupid and idiotic proclamations, as his Brazil visit further illustrates are doing the catholic church endless harm in more developed countries, long may they continue.:devil1:

That's another major problem, as I posted above. What really sends the Pope into paroxysms of self-righteousness is any sign that Catholics are retreating from the specifically Catholic doctrines that divide them from the rest of the world. So, Catholics may commit murder, armed robbery, and rape. Sure, these things are sins, but the Pope doesn't deliver long harangues telling people not to commit them. What gets his knickers in a twist is the thought that somewhere a Catholic family is practicing birth control or ceasing to believe in transubstantiation.

[EthnAlln]

I would add a third goal: to try to reduce the "risk" of a decriminalization of abortion, an issue that has been the focus of increasing public attention lately in Latin America.

The RCC seems to be getting seriously worried, even if decriminalization laws aren't likely to be passed any time soon, at least in most countries (but the recent law in Mexico City is making the Church very nervous, apparently).

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18569939/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/world/europe/09cnd-pope.html?em&ex=1178856000&en=21e42866e83a5267&ei=5087%0A

I believe divorce is now, despite the Pope's horror, possible in Italy. It wasn't for a long time, because the Church made NO allowances for human imperfection when its basic morality was concerned. The secular law was required to be the same idiotic "counsel of perfection" that the ecclesiastical law was. (This is still the case in regard to abortion; rape or incest or ectopic pregnancy---NOTHING is allowed to take precedence over this commandment.) It reminds me of Mark Twain's sardonic comment on Jehovah's threat to "cut off" all who piss against a wall. As Twain said, a man could piss on his own mother, and Jehovah wouldn't mind; it was the wall he objected to defiling. (Actually, I think Twain misinterpreted that; cutting off "all who piss against a wall" was, I think, just a colorful way of saying he was going to kill all the males, since females seldom piss against a wall.)

The effects of such puritanism were satirized most beautifully in that classic comedy "Divorce, Italian Style" starring Marcello Mastroianni and Sophia Loren, in which Mastroianni's character is forced to murder his wife so he can marry his mistress. He finds a loophole in the law which allows a sort of "temporary insanity" plea in cases where a man catches his wife in medias res with her lover and murders her. Then he pushes his wife toward an affair with another man, waiting for it to become notorious enough so that his claim of uncontrollable jealousy will be believable. Unfortunately, he waits too long, and his wife's lover's wife murders her husband, so he has to improvise a fit of jealousy in great haste.

[EthnAlln]

:cool: Cogito ergo sum. And sometimes we throw in an aside that gets jumped all over by those wishing to derailitus.

Meanwhile, el papa has made such a fuss about abortion that his chances for success in keeping Latin Americans away from Pentacostals and further squashing Liberation Theology are zip. Talk about a derail. And he did it himself by telling reporters on the plane that Mexican bishops are correct to excommunicate the legislators who voted for and passed the OK for abortion in the first 3 months of pregnancy (Mexico City).

So, the Church excommunicates a democratically elected official who votes for abortion rights. Got it.

And the Church didn't excommunicate the men who crushed democracy in Germany and planned and executed the systematic murder of six million people. Got it.

Well, as long as they've got their priorities straight...

[Californian]

Yes. And more about those priorities. This is how one becomes a saint:
Brazilian believers swallow so-called Galvao pills, small pieces of paper inscribed with a prayer in Latin, in hope of being healed of various ailments.

According to legend, the friar (St. Galvao) came upon a sick man and, not knowing what else to do, scribbled a prayer on a piece of paper and gave it to the man, who recovered.

These days, thousands of Galvao pills are made by cloistered nuns who distribute them for free or for donations. The prayer nowadays is addressed to the Virgin Mary: "After birth, the Virgin remained intact. Mother of God, intercede on our behalf."
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-pope12may12,0,3102417,print.story

[EthnAlln]

Yes. And more about those priorities. This is how one becomes a saint:

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-pope12may12,0,3102417,print.story

Like I said, snake oil. Benny Hinn would be ashamed of this tactic.

[Mike Rosoft]

Well, as long as they've got their priorities straight...

Indeed. Their priority is what happens to people before their birth and after their death. Their life on this Earth is not that important. (See these (http://www.womensordination.org/cartoon.html) cartoons.)


Mike Rosoft

[EthnAlln]

Well, as long as they've got their priorities straight...

Indeed. Their priority is what happens to people before their birth and after their death. Their life on this Earth is not that important. (See these (http://www.womensordination.org/cartoon.html) cartoons.)


Mike Rosoft

They make very good points. The Church really doesn't have a leg to stand on here, since Paul declares (Romans 16:7) that his relatives Andronicus and Julia were both apostles. This was so scandalous that some copyists decided the earliest manuscript (Dublin, Chester Beatty, dated to about the year 200) must be wrong, and they turned Julia into Junias, a "correction" of Saint Paul that has persisted in all the later manuscripts. (This operation is sometimes referred to as an "addadictomy". :devil1: )

Thanks for this example. It's another case where the "peculiar" doctrines are the most important ones. It's not confined to the Catholics, of course. For the Mormon friends I had when I was in high school, the most important commandments were to abstain from coffee and tea.

CS Lewis also opposed the ordination of women, and invented one of his usual silly "arguments from analogy" to show what was wrong with it. According to him, the whole human race is feminine in relation to God's great big dick (actually, that's plausible, when you think of the way God uses us), so no woman could possibly perform the priestly role of representing God to the congregation. (I guess he never met a large bull dyke.)

Continuing to develop this theme that the "peculiar" doctrines are the important ones, I recall that in the late 1980s, when Britain was considering the relaxation of the Sunday "blue" laws, requiring shops to be closed, my wife was serving as a deacon (the old Mother Anglican Church did not yet accept women priests) in Bricket Wood, near London. The rector there was mounting a vigorous campaign to keep the law as it was. Being a foreigner, I kept silent on the issue, but I thought it a strange issue to obsess about. What did he think he was achieving? Would Christians really be so inconvenienced in their worship if their secular neighbors went about their day so as to please themselves? I wanted to tell him that he was not helping to propagate the Gospel in this way. When the 98% of Britons who are NOT going to church on a given Sunday are required to tiptoe about so as not to offend the 2% who ARE going, the secular majority is not going to get a positive impression of Christianity.

Still more along the same lines. When I was growing up, my family were close to a family that attended the Church of Christ. Among its peculiar doctrines was a prohibition of musical instruments in church. They sang hymns, but always a capella, on the grounds that the New Testament records no instance of a musical instrument used in worship by the earliest Christian communities. For the mother in that family, that one doctrine was proof that her church, and her church alone, was the true one. (We finally fell out with them, when she told my mother that we were all going to hell. Eventually, we reconciled, but things were tense for a long time.)

[Cheese]

Hmmmm...wonder what the Good Pope is up to today?

The Article (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070514/world/international_pope_brazil_indians_dc)
Brazil's Indians offended by Pope comments

Outraged Indian leaders in Brazil said on Monday they were offended by Pope Benedict's "arrogant and disrespectful" comments that the Roman Catholic Church had purified them and a revival of their religions would be a backward step.

Isnt that sorta like the Pot calling the kettle black? Its kind of comical watching an old man wearing a dress masquerading around Brazil...just the wrong time of year!

[EthnAlln]

Hmmmm...wonder what the Good Pope is up to today?

The Article (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070514/world/international_pope_brazil_indians_dc)
Brazil's Indians offended by Pope comments

Outraged Indian leaders in Brazil said on Monday they were offended by Pope Benedict's "arrogant and disrespectful" comments that the Roman Catholic Church had purified them and a revival of their religions would be a backward step.

Isnt that sorta like the Pot calling the kettle black? Its kind of comical watching an old man wearing a dress masquerading around Brazil...just the wrong time of year!


Maybe the Pope really is the Antichrist, as the loony Protestants believe. He certainly seems to suffer from hoof-in-mouth disease. (Remember his remarks on the Prophet Mohammed a few months ago? He just can't seem to understand that the things he takes for granted when speaking with fellow Catholics are quite offensive when spoken outside that circle. I'll bet it won't be long before he comes out with some patronizing reference to Martin Luther that will piss off all the Protestants in the world.)

[ross ewidge]

The Article (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070514/world/international_pope_brazil_indians_dc)
Brazil's Indians offended by Pope comments

"the Pope said the Church had not imposed itself on the indigenous peoples of the Americas.

"They had welcomed the arrival of European priests at the time of the conquest as they were "silently longing" for Christianity"
:rolleyes: :frown: :( :confused: :mad: :devil:

So were all those who didn't convert at gunpoint were longing for death? This guy needs to have a religious experience with a lead pipe.

[EthnAlln]

"the Pope said the Church had not imposed itself on the indigenous peoples of the Americas.

"They had welcomed the arrival of European priests at the time of the conquest as they were "silently longing" for Christianity"
:rolleyes: :frown: :( :confused: :mad: :devil:

So were all those who didn't convert at gunpoint were longing for death? This guy needs to have a religious experience with a lead pipe.

He probably is so fucking ignorant that he hasn't even heard of Diego de Landa, the man who burned all but 4 of the Mayan books. I'm beginning to think he is certifiable, living in a cocoon of fantasy.

[Mike Rosoft]

To say that the natives weren't subject to forceful conversions is a lie; to say that they were longing for something they have never heard of is an absurdity of the highest degree. But once again, what else could I expect from the Chief Inquisitor?

But it begs the question whether these statements are actually worse than the half-hearted apologies for the "mistakes" of the church from Mr. Wojtyla, the late pope John Paul II - in the face of systematic persecution of dissenters within the church. Didn't Jesus say something in the sense of "Woe to you, hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets that your fathers had killed, but through your actions you prove that you are no different" ? (Matthew 23)


Mike Rosoft

[hclincha]

Hmmmm...wonder what the Good Pope is up to today?

The Article (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070514/world/international_pope_brazil_indians_dc)
Brazil's Indians offended by Pope comments

Outraged Indian leaders in Brazil said on Monday they were offended by Pope Benedict's "arrogant and disrespectful" comments that the Roman Catholic Church had purified them and a revival of their religions would be a backward step.

Isnt that sorta like the Pot calling the kettle black? Its kind of comical watching an old man wearing a dress masquerading around Brazil...just the wrong time of year!
Nahh, crossdressers are quite usual in Brazil, so any time of the year is time for wearing a dress