Tammy Faye - Cancer - God

[OldYgg]

Apparently, and sadly for her, Tammy Faye is dying of cancer (http://www.towleroad.com/2007/05/tammy_faye_stop.html).

I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but I find her statements odd with regard to god and promises? They don't sound very coherent, but I suppose nobody is very coherent at 65 pounds and doctors stopping treatment of cancer.

Old Ygg

Additional Article with some more information. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/09/AR2007050902331.html)

[windsofchange]

Did anyone else see The Eyes of Tammy Faye? I liked her a lot more after seeing that. Irrational beliefs, money laundering, and running mascara aside, she wasn't half bad.

(and if believing in god helps her deal with the pain then mazel tov to her.)

[Overkill]

65 pounds? Jeesh, my right leg weighs that much.
Eh, I feel bad that she got cancer but she's still a douche.

[windsofchange]

Less of a douche than some, though - she was very accepting of gays, & she & Jimmy boy talked about AIDS on their show long before the government acknowledged it existed.

[OldYgg]

Did anyone else see The Eyes of Tammy Faye? I liked her a lot more after seeing that. Irrational beliefs, money laundering, and running mascara aside, she wasn't half bad.

(and if believing in god helps her deal with the pain then mazel tov to her.)

Is it something available on the web? It was weird, she definitely has something that says "I'm nice and a little weird." about her. The little weird part (especially, what I always thought was outlandish make-up jobs) made her human and not some ice palace princess of god to delivery death and destruction or peace and heaven.

I'm not even sure why I started a thread on her? Ah, I guess it is sad whenever just about anyone approaches death. Good luck to her and her prayers.

Old Ygg

[OldYgg]

I actually didn't know that a person could continue to live and be a full grown adult at 65 pounds. She must look like a holocaust survivor.

Is it wrong to feel bad for her? I'm pretty sure she had a dim view of atheists.

Old Ygg

[SundayMorning]

(and if believing in god helps her deal with the pain then mazel tov to her.)

Agreed.

I watched her a few times a reality show a while back and IMO she was really sweet. She stood by her convictions but I don't recall her every trying to convert or make others feel bad because they didn't believe as she did.

[ELECTROGOD]

http://members.aol.com/grandrapidshouse/tammy1.gif

[OldYgg]

http://members.aol.com/grandrapidshouse/tammy1.gif

Damn, she looks skeletal in that picture, I can't imagine how she looks now.

Oh, and BTW, that's just wrong....

Of course, so will all the events after she dies and people praise her and her lord.

Old Ygg

[Lilyofthevalley]

I'll always have respect for Tammy Faye from late nights watching her on the PTL show in the 1980s with a crying baby on my shoulder. She came across to me as a genuine person. Nobody should belittle her because of how she looked. The mascara etc. A friend gave me a T-shirt with two blurred mascara eyes, with the logo: 'I ran into Tammy Faye at the mall.' :)

I saw her quite recently on a programme on UK TV and she was really honest and straightforward - her faith in God seemed to be as strong as it was when I used to view her programmes back then. I was quite impressed, given that she had lung cancer.

I think that's real faith, the sign of a strong human character and will, and no one should put her down.

[Overkill]

I was thinking about the Tammy Faye thing and it got me thinking, why don't we ever hear something like...
"God made my tits/dick bigger"
"God made my stock go up 38 percent"
"God helped me win the pick 6 lotto 4 times in 5 months"
Nope, don't hear that too much.
But when a tornado comes its God time. When somebody gets cancer its God Time. I mean, look at the central doctrine of Christianity, its the brutal torturous death of an innocent man.
Why can't God make a point with something positive for once?

[Biff the unclean]

It’s interesting the compulsion people feel to say something positive about the dead and the dying. Even about a scoundrel and shill like Tammy Faye.

[Lilyofthevalley]

was thinking about the Tammy Faye thing and it got me thinking, why don't we ever hear something like...
"God made my tits/dick bigger"
"God made my stock go up 38 percent"
"God helped me win the pick 6 lotto 4 times in 5 months"
Nope, don't hear that too much.
But when a tornado comes its God time. When somebody gets cancer its God Time. I mean, look at the central doctrine of Christianity, its the brutal torturous death of an innocent man.
Why can't God make a point with something positive for once?

Interestingly, on that note, I recall Tammy Faye once bewailing, 'Why couldn't God have given me a couple more inches in height? Would it have been that big of a deal?' Then she sort of laughed it off. :) I remember that because I'm a petite woman myself.

Yes, the central point of Christianity is something torturous - that's because life IS torturous, it's hard. God is saying, 'I know what it's like, I'm not swanning above it all, I know life is shit.'

(As the Buddha said, 'All life is suffering.' )

So the positive note is that God knows the negatives we deal with all the time... and apparently loves us.

[EthnAlln]

I was thinking about the Tammy Faye thing and it got me thinking, why don't we ever hear something like...
"God made my tits/dick bigger"
"God made my stock go up 38 percent"
"God helped me win the pick 6 lotto 4 times in 5 months"
Nope, don't hear that too much.
But when a tornado comes its God time. When somebody gets cancer its God Time. I mean, look at the central doctrine of Christianity, its the brutal torturous death of an innocent man.
Why can't God make a point with something positive for once?

As Bertrand Russell said, "The belief in a benevolent god is inversely proportional to the evidence for it."

Both Tammy and Jim Bakker struck me as a pair of simpletons who never intended any harm. But they did harm, make no mistake about it, promising little crippled children that they were going to build amusement parks for them, and then spending the money on high living. They were the quintessential uneducated middle Americans who got rich and didn't have any taste or refinement to discipline themselves. Jim was the worse of the two, a philandering bisexual who blamed Tammy for his own infidelities, and Tammy followed along like a dutiful wife.

But that's long in the past. They may both have learned a lesson and come back humble and penitent. I hope so, and I'm very sorry to hear that Tammy is dying. Having just been told by my own doctor day before yesterday that the lump in my neck is probably not cancer (even though my mother and brother both died of cancers in their neck), I've decided I can start reading serial comic strips again. I know I'd have regretted not getting a few more years of life, and Tammy is exactly my age. So, my best wishes to her, and I hope they make her comfortable.

[naturalist.atheist]

Well if that was a test from the lard I guess she failed. Game over.

[Biff the unclean]

So the positive note is that God knows the negatives we deal with all the time... and apparently loves us.
Aaaah... we are talking about a woman in the final stages of cancer... does that appear to be love to you? What is positive about God knowing the negatives?

[naturalist.atheist]

Aaaah... we are talking about a woman in the final stages of cancer... does that appear to be love to you? What is positive about God knowing the negatives?

Well, it certainly could be, in the twisted "Mommie Dearest" kind of way. God loves us even if it kills us kind of way.

[Lilyofthevalley]

As Bertrand Russell said, "The belief in a benevolent god is inversely proportional to the evidence for it."


There's quite a lot of positive evidence for a benevolent god that we shouldn't close our eyes to. From the quote above you'd think the world was unadulterated misery and woe - but it isn't.

There is a great deal of beauty and goodness in the world.

[Biff the unclean]

There's quite a lot of positive evidence for a benevolent god that we shouldn't close our eyes to. From the quote above you'd think the world was unadulterated misery and woe - but it isn't.

There is a great deal of beauty and goodness in the world.

We are still talking about a woman in the final stages of cancer. Why do you ignore that? How hard a heart do you have?

[naturalist.atheist]

There's quite a lot of positive evidence for a benevolent god that we shouldn't close our eyes to. From the quote above you'd think the world was unadulterated misery and woe - but it isn't.

There is a great deal of beauty and goodness in the world.

The parts that we really like are not exactly completely natural. Most people don't actually want to experience nature as it is. It is either too cold, too hot, or too dangerous. People have this odd concept of nature that comes from watching too many cartoons and Disney films. Nature is awesome, but that word has two meanings.

[Queen of Swords]

There is a great deal of beauty and goodness in the world.

What does this have to do with a person dying of cancer?

I've disagreed with christians who claimed this world was all misery and suffering, but that doesn't mean I think that the raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens can somehow change the ugly reality of cancer.

[Lilyofthevalley]

Aaaah... we are talking about a woman in the final stages of cancer... does that appear to be love to you? What is positive about God knowing the negatives?

My own mother died of breast cancer and I'm at high risk and my husband has recently lost a kidney to renal cancer so I'm not kidding about. No, such situations don't FEEL like they arose from love. But we have to get beyond child-like interpretations of what life should be. e.g. It should always be nice for me, I should always get what I want etc.... I believe what the Buddha said, life is suffering. Likewise, the Christian view is that we are in a 'vale of tears'. We aren't in a pleasure ground here.

When you view life this way, it oddly starts to make sense. :)

[Queen of Swords]

But we have to get beyond child-like interpretations of what life should be. e.g. It should always be nice for me, I should always get what I want etc

If only Jesus had known this, he wouldn't have gone around saying nonsense like, "Ask and you shall receive". Instead, he would have told people, "You have to get beyond child-like interpretations of what life should be. God is like a father who, when his son asks for bread, gives him a stone."

.... I believe what the Buddha said, life is suffering.

I believe that people who believe life is suffering have less motivation to reduce other people's suffering. As such, they are not people I trust around myself or my loved ones, especially when I or my loved ones are in a situation where we need comfort or support.

Likewise, the Christian view is that we are in a 'vale of tears'. We aren't in a pleasure ground here.

No wonder christians look forward to an afterlife so much, if they have such a sad view of the world.

[windsofchange]

Is it something available on the web?

No, but it's available on DVD. Here's the rotten Tomatoes review page (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/eyes_of_tammy_faye/).

Definitely worth seeing IMHO!

[Definitely Maybe]

It’s interesting the compulsion people feel to say something positive about the dead and the dying. Even about a scoundrel and shill like Tammy Faye. Eh, I don't think she is currently a scoundrel. If she had died in the 80's I doubt I would feel as much compassion for her, but over the years she projected herself as someone who was quite sweet and seemed more accepting than most people in her line of religious belief. I mean, how many people like her would have befriended Ron Jeremy?

[windsofchange]

Here's an interesting quote from one of the reviews of "The Eyes of Tammy Faye":

Here are some surprises. The brand of religion she and ex-hubby Jim Bakker were preaching was not about fire and brimstone. Theirs was the first evangelical movement that preached inclusion. They were the first to reach out to the gay community with a message of love and the first to preach compassion for AIDS patients. That they were also living quite an extravagant lifestyle is unquestioned, but no more luxurious than their peers. And as for the money problems, it’s just as likely that these two small town kids who came from poverty just didn’t know what they were dealing with. Neither did they realize what they were up against with their, quote brothers and sisters in Christ unquote, who coveted their satellite network. There may be honor among thieves, but there would seem to be none in the electronic ministry. As Pat Boone says in the film, “Christians are the only ones who kill their wounded.”
from Killer Movie Reviews (http://www.killermoviereviews.com/main.php?nextlink=display&dId=279)

[credoconsolans]

Poor woman. There are people I would wish such suffering on, but she's not one of them. I hope she is made comfortable and has her loved ones around.

[ELECTROGOD]

Well, three now have voiced how the con men can get away with selling snake oil...just smile big enough and people's emotional need to respond favorably to those who project a likeable image (despite their actions) will allow you to get their "love"...and sympathy when needed.

[OldYgg]

I was thinking about the Tammy Faye thing and it got me thinking, why don't we ever hear something like...
"God made my tits/dick bigger"
"God made my stock go up 38 percent"
"God helped me win the pick 6 lotto 4 times in 5 months"
Nope, don't hear that too much.
But when a tornado comes its God time. When somebody gets cancer its God Time. I mean, look at the central doctrine of Christianity, its the brutal torturous death of an innocent man.
Why can't God make a point with something positive for once?

I think we all can agree that whatever the sweet spot is for size in a penis, my wife and I would be absolutely happier about that. That happiness would contribute to the happiness of everyone around us.

It is the perfect utilitarian argument for me getting my penis done. All except that cost.

So, charity, folks, non-profit organization to make my dick bigger. :)

Old Ygg

[OldYgg]

It’s interesting the compulsion people feel to say something positive about the dead and the dying. Even about a scoundrel and shill like Tammy Faye.

It is probably a sympathy thing. (almost) No matter how bad a person was/is - you know they are suffering and that in their case they are going to be dying in the near-term future. It sucks.

At least from my perspective, I never want to die (with some provisions).

Provisions:
1) I can't get older than I am now, and if I end up not being able to die when I'm really old, I want to be able to get my body in to younger shape.
2) I don't want my kids, grand-kid, to the xth descendants of mine to die. It says on the imaginary contract - kids die after their parents. If I don't get to die, damn well nobody else of my blood should die before me.
3) The world doesn't get really screwed up. You know, I don't want to live for 50 million years if everyone else is dead. Just not much of a point to it, and even being able to reproduce to have retarded great-grandkids because there is no-one else to have sex with doesn't fly for me. If humanity goes, I go with it.
4) I don't want to forget what it was like to be young/child. I've forgotten a lot of this and I find this is one of the major losses. Now, forgetting the past 5 years (to a large extent) probably wouldn't be such a big deal.
5) Humanity gets to grow up and leave Earth in a non-traditional manner. Realistically, I don't want to live 50,000 years of different assholes trying to kill each other. If after a couple thousand years and we're still Earth-bound, we're still idiots killing each other fighting over dwindling resources, I don't want to see it.

Hmm, that's all I can think of for now.

Old Ygg

[Biff the unclean]

My own mother died of breast cancer and I'm at high risk and my husband has recently lost a kidney to renal cancer so I'm not kidding about.
Yeah, I’m a cancer survivor myself. But you come out with these facts as if the explained your statements and they don’t. If fact they make you position much worse. Your mother dead, your husband has large chunk hacked out of him and you harden your heart towards both of them.

No, such situations don't FEEL like they arose from love.
That’s because agony and death do not arise from love.

But we have to get beyond child-like interpretations of what life should be. e.g. It should always be nice for me, I should always get what I want etc.... I believe what the Buddha said, life is suffering. Likewise, the Christian view is that we are in a 'vale of tears'. We aren't in a pleasure ground here.

When you view life this way, it oddly starts to make sense.
“Oddly” is the key word in the above blurb. You are describing an odd condition called masochism. To equate love with suffering and tears is the interpretation one would expect of an abused child.

[EthnAlln]

There's quite a lot of positive evidence for a benevolent god that we shouldn't close our eyes to. From the quote above you'd think the world was unadulterated misery and woe - but it isn't.

There is a great deal of beauty and goodness in the world.

I should have given more context for the Russell quote. His point was that if people solved their social problems and life became secure, prosperous, and free, then religion would probably die out. He observed that free thought flourishes during times of general prosperity, but gets damped down during times of crisis like today.

[espritch]

Apparently, and sadly for her, Tammy Faye is dying of cancer (http://www.towleroad.com/2007/05/tammy_faye_stop.html).

I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but I find her statements odd with regard to god and promises? They don't sound very coherent, but I suppose nobody is very coherent at 65 pounds and doctors stopping treatment of cancer.
[/URL]

Tammy Faye's views never struck me as particularly coherent even before she got cancer. After Hurricane Hugo trashed Charlotte, Tammy Faye said it was God's punishment on the City for oppressing her and Jim. She didn't say what God was punishing the folks in Charleston SC for (as Hugo passed through Charleston on it's way to Charlotte).

It is, I suspect, just too much to expect coherence from a Fundamentalist, even when they aren't dying. I could have mustered a lot more sympathy for her if she wasn't so arrogant as to believe her God sends hurricanes to punish people on her behalf.

[OldYgg]

Tammy Faye's views never struck me as particularly coherent even before she got cancer. After Hurricane Hugo trashed Charlotte, Tammy Faye said it was God's punishment on the City for oppressing her and Jim. She didn't say what God was punishing the folks in Charleston SC for (as Hugo passed through Charleston on it's way to Charlotte).

It is, I suspect, just too much to expect coherence from a Fundamentalist, even when they aren't dying. I could have mustered a lot more sympathy for her if she wasn't so arrogant as to believe her God sends hurricanes to punish people on her behalf.

Ahh, I thought that was just Pat Robertson that was in the natural-disasters-are-gods-pissed-off-venting-on-the-badguy-of-the-moment group.

I saw some of the reality show she was on, and she was on her best behavior then - and it was even funny to watch her run away when something was happening that she didn't want to have anything to do with.

Old Ygg

[joedad]

To equate love with suffering and tears is the interpretation one would expect of an abused child.
Not the survival strategy I'd choose but one that works, clinging to an abusive protector that is.

[Biff the unclean]

How does either causing, or allowing to happen, a kidney to need to be ripped out get someone to rate as a "protector?"

[Perm]

Eh, I don't think she is currently a scoundrel. If she had died in the 80's I doubt I would feel as much compassion for her, but over the years she projected herself as someone who was quite sweet and seemed more accepting than most people in her line of religious belief. I mean, how many people like her would have befriended Ron Jeremy?

Does that not come across as desperation in any way? Who in the hell would ever even listen to a hypocrite? They got nailed for massive fraud (stealing from old, defenseless, dying people) and then afterwards didn't completely remake her image? OF COURSE she'll befriend Ron Jeremy, she'll take any friends she can get. The more sweet and innocent she appears, the sooner she could get her reputation back.

A test of a person's character is what you do when no one is looking. Well, everyone has been looking since the day they discovered what she was doing when they WEREN'T.

I don't wish death upon anyone, but I certainly wouldn't posit that she's come kind of martyr or overly genuine/sweet person that deserves our attention. She deserves sympathy because she's a human that's suffering, nothing more.. especially not what she's done since being "discovered" of criminal activity.

[Definitely Maybe]

Does that not come across as desperation in any way? Who in the hell would ever even listen to a hypocrite?
She deserves sympathy because she's a human that's suffering, nothing more.. especially not what she's done since being "discovered" of criminal activity. Is there anyone alive who has never done hypocritical activities? Come on. I think she really has changed since the 80's. I'm not standing up for her ridiculous religious views or that horrible TV ministry, but it's possible to actually like someone you disagree with. She only deserves sympathy because she's human? Your take, not mine.

[OldYgg]

Do humans deserve sympathy just because they are human? That's a good question.

Just on the surface on the real-world show with the porn star guy - I thought she was nice enough. We all like to think we are nice enough. So, when someone else nice enough is dying, you feel sympathy for selfish reasons. You'll want someone to sympathize with you if you get in to such a state and...you're glad it isn't you.

Old Ygg

[EthnAlln]

Do humans deserve sympathy just because they are human? That's a good question.

Old Ygg

My answer: Yes, unconditionally. That's an essential part of being human, to have sympathy for people (and other creatures) who are suffering.

Bertrand Russell said it well in "A Free Man's Worship" (written around 1900):


United with his fellow-men by the strongest of all ties, the tie of a common doom, the free man finds that a new vision is with him always, shedding over every daily task the light of love. The life of Man is a long march through the night, surrounded by invisible foes, tortured by weariness and pain, towards a goal that few can hope to reach, and where none may tarry long. One by one, as they march, our comrades vanish from our sight, seized by the silent orders of omnipotent Death. Very brief is the time in which we can help them, in which their happiness or misery is decided. Be it ours to shed sunshine on their path, to lighten their sorrows by the balm of sympathy, to give them the pure joy of a never-tiring affection, to strengthen failing courage, to instil faith in hours of despair. Let us not weigh in grudging scales their merits and demerits, but let us think only of their need--of the sorrows, the difficulties, perhaps the blindnesses, that make the misery of their lives; let us remember that they are fellow-sufferers in the same darkness, actors in the same tragedy as ourselves. And so, when their day is over, when their good and their evil have become eternal by the immortality of the past, be it ours to feel that, where they suffered, where they failed, no deed of ours was the cause; but wherever a spark of the divine fire kindled in their hearts, we were ready with encouragement, with sympathy, with brave words in which high courage glowed.


Russell didn't exactly live up to these fine words during his long life, but let us hope he tried, like other fallible human beings, to do so. The words are inspiring in any case and a good model to those who take them as a partial guide to living.

[AdamWho]

My feelings changed about Tammy when she performed a one woman show written by John Waters in the Castro Theater in SF.

After that I understood both her and John Waters much better.

[Gawen]

Do humans deserve sympathy just because they are human? That's a good question.
My answer: Yes, unconditionally. That's an essential part of being human, to have sympathy for people (and other creatures) who are suffering.


http://members.aol.com/grandrapidshouse/tammy1.gif
Read the caption within the photo. I just wouldn't be the person I am today if it weren't for God.

My answer: No, unconditionally. Not with her past. I have pity because she is such a sad woman, looking for sympathy. But I have no sympathy or pity because of her cancer or her impending death.

Edited to add: I really can't, or should say any more. It just pisses me off. My heart is hardened to Faye and her ilk.

[Tubby Lardmore]

Trinity Broadcasting is always interesting when Paul and Jan Crouch are on camera, though that is getting to be a rare thing. Paul Jr. seems to be taking over the reins. His mother Jan has a bit of the Tammy Faye persona in her. She too has been in poor health for years.

Larry King is said to be a nonbeliever married to a Mormon. He must be fascinated by evangelists, because he has had Tammy Faye, Oral Roberts, Billy Graham and others on his show a good number of times.

[EthnAlln]

Read the caption within the photo. I just wouldn't be the person I am today if it weren't for God.

My answer: No, unconditionally. Not with her past. I have pity because she is such a sad woman, looking for sympathy. But I have no sympathy or pity because of her cancer or her impending death.

Edited to add: I really can't, or should say any more. It just pisses me off. My heart is hardened to Faye and her ilk.

Well, yours is a point of view. I disagree with it, and I'll requote part of what Russell said:


Let us not weigh in grudging scales their merits and demerits, but let us think only of their need—of the sorrows, the difficulties, perhaps the blindnesses, that make the misery of their lives; let us remember that they are fellow-sufferers in the same darkness, actors in the same tragedy as ourselves.

[Potoooooooo]

Well, yours is a point of view. I disagree with it, and I'll requote part of what Russell said:

Yeah, but what he said is not nearly as much fun:devil1:

[Gawen]

I see your point Ethn...and Russel's. I really do. But I simply cannot find the sympathy for those like her who have bilked millions of dollars from people, regardless how gullible those people may have been. Jim Bakker may have been the culprit nabbed for the crime, but Tammy enjoyed the harvest right along with him. Her entire being is blamed on her god. The cancer is a test from her god. We should except Jesus so we can be like her?

Now that she's sick and dying she pleads for sympathy from us? Who she should be pleading for sympathy with is her god.

Likewise, I would have no sympathy for Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Jim Bakker, any priest-preacher-minister-pastor found in the same crimes or worse, Paul Crouch, Oral Roberts or Jack Hyles if they were vying for sympathy due to an illness such as Tammy's. I don't care how much they grovel and say they're sorry.

If she had only bounced a cheque or two I could sympathise with her.
You're a better man than I am Ethn.

[naturalist.atheist]

I agree Gwen. The thing about con artists is that they work hard to affect an appearance of sincerity in helping others. But they deliberately hide their actions of greed and criminality because they are crooks. And simply because they steel money with fake sincerity makes them no less contemptible than those that do it with a gun in the night.

I had the misfortune to become entangled with such a person. And discovered first hand how duplicitous they are. People like Tammy only exist not because of their inherent decency but because of the inherent decency of the people they defraud.

[Potoooooooo]

Again I would also like to add that I have no sympathy for those they bilked. Sheep deserve to be fleeced.

[JamesBannon]

My own mother died of breast cancer and I'm at high risk and my husband has recently lost a kidney to renal cancer so I'm not kidding about. No, such situations don't FEEL like they arose from love. But we have to get beyond child-like interpretations of what life should be. e.g. It should always be nice for me, I should always get what I want etc.... I believe what the Buddha said, life is suffering. Likewise, the Christian view is that we are in a 'vale of tears'. We aren't in a pleasure ground here.

When you view life this way, it oddly starts to make sense. :)
And that is precisely the problem with the world view you hold. Be that as it may I hope she is at least reasonably comfortable. I wonder why she isn't getting feed for her weight loss though - seems odd to me.

[naturalist.atheist]

Again I would also like to add that I have no sympathy for those they bilked. Sheep deserve to be fleeced.

I see. And the corallary is that people deserve to be robbed because they are alone and unprotected? Or women deserve to be raped because they were asking for it?

There are stupid people in the world, I'll grant you that, and I may be one of them, but that is no excuse for criminal behavior. The thing about the Bakers is if the fraud was comitted in the corporate world like say Enron, society as a whole would have no problems with seeing it for what it was, but wrap god around it and then people think that they should be forgiven and those they robbed should have known better.

What is funny about it is that religous foolery is so ingraned into our culture that people ignore obvious criminal behavior simply because it might be someone doing gods work. It is so prevalent that the frauds parade themselves on TV everyday and no one thinks anything about it. But if one of the Enron crooks were to do the same then there would be a "holy" uproar.

[Potoooooooo]

Let me remind you that the people that were giving them money would in all likelihood have wanted to hurt us, restrict our freedoms and impose their values on us. I feel no sympathy for them.

[naturalist.atheist]

Let me remind you that the people that were giving them money would in all likelihood have wanted to hurt us, restrict our freedoms and impose their values on us. I feel no sympathy for them.

I am sure there are many that would. And I am not crazy about them either. But I would not think it was right for any of them to be raped or robbed just because they would wish us harm because we did not agree with them when it comes to god. I may be wrong that way but it is not something I can do at the moment. Maybe if they keep up their rampage to reform the habits and thoughts of everyone else I might change my mind.

[EthnAlln]

I see your point Ethn...and Russel's. I really do. But I simply cannot find the sympathy for those like her who have bilked millions of dollars from people, regardless how gullible those people may have been. Jim Bakker may have been the culprit nabbed for the crime, but Tammy enjoyed the harvest right along with him. Her entire being is blamed on her god. The cancer is a test from her god. We should except Jesus so we can be like her?

Oh yes, they certainly did some things that were very bad. I believe the main demographics for their show was widows, average age 75, who dipped into their social security to send the cash to the Bakkers. That's a nasty game, any way you look at it.


Likewise, I would have no sympathy for Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Jim Bakker, any priest-preacher-minister-pastor found in the same crimes or worse, Paul Crouch, Oral Roberts or Jack Hyles if they were vying for sympathy due to an illness such as Tammy's. I don't care how much they grovel and say they're sorry.

Having seen ample evidence of Swaggart's insincerity, I also have no sympathy for him. And he keeps turning up, like a bad penny. I saw him on TV a few months ago, hawking some CDs from his glory days before he started getting caught with prostitutes. As for Haggard, he's lying low right now. A very good place for him.


If she had only bounced a cheque or two I could sympathise with her.
You're a better man than I am Ethn.
Disclaimer: I don't always live up to my highest ideals. Nor did Russell. There is something about loving an abstraction called humanity that is so much easier than loving individual human beings. Solzhenitsyn remarked on it Cancer Ward, in the person of the dedicated Party Member who loved The People but despised ordinary human beings. Russell, I'm afraid, was inclined to be like that Party Member. Perhaps I can learn from their mistakes. But one must be careful. Russell easily saw through the hypocrisy of Rousseau, for example, but seems to have had very little insight into his own character.

[OldYgg]

And that is precisely the problem with the world view you hold. Be that as it may I hope she is at least reasonably comfortable. I wonder why she isn't getting feed for her weight loss though - seems odd to me.

Apparently, she is in so much pain that she can't chew to eat.

Old Ygg

[the Radio Star]

Wow. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone dyingl like this before. She looks like she's almost there on Larry King Live.

[ziffel]

Wow. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone dyingl like this before. She looks like she's almost there on Larry King Live.

I saw that too, and it was quite disturbing. I met her once, back in '89, in a grocery store in Orlando (I lived near her). She was very nice.

[OldYgg]

Wow. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone dyingl like this before. She looks like she's almost there on Larry King Live.

I didn't get a chance to see that. I saw a few headlines about her and holding on to god. Having lived with someone not that close to me dying a lingering long death and wanting to die for 10 years - I don't wish that kind of thing on anyone.

Old Ygg

[ziffel]

I didn't get a chance to see that. I saw a few headlines about her and holding on to god.

Old Ygg

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2007/07/19/lkl.tammy.faye.god.cnn

[Gullwind]

I have to say my respect for her went up quite a bit after she played Mimi's mother on the Drew Carey Show. Anyone who can laugh at themselves like she did can't be all bad.

[OldYgg]

I think saying she looks like hell isn't nearly the magnitude of her reality.

I can only hope I don't go through anything like that - scientists - do your work.

Old Ygg

[Tubby Lardmore]

I saw the Larry King show on CNN last night. I feel bad for her. All her fat deposits are gone--her looks reminded me of an insect that has had all the juices sucked out by a spider. Her voice was just a whisper. She has constant pain in her back.

Larry asked her where the cancer was located, and I thought she said only in her lungs. Later on the show her son said--if I understood--that it spread from colon to lungs and spine.

For Larry King to have Deepak Chopra on the show with Tammy's son seemed inappropriate somehow. Chopra is what I think of as a New Ager. Why not have a Christian faith healer on the show instead, explaining why he thinks Tammy Faye is in the medical situation that she is in?

As far as the theological points made during the interview, I gather that Tammy and her family give credit to God for intervening to cause her to live a year beyond when medical people thought she would die. But the quality of life is obviously poor, and nobody would claim that she is healed from cancer.

I suspect she will be gone before the year is out, though I wish her no ill will.

King signed off the Tammy part of the interview with a "God bless." I'm not sure how he meant that, since I gather he is agnostic.

[ziffel]

She just passed

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/21/tammy.faye/index.html

I'm glad she is no longer suffering.

[Sanity Will Prevail]

I'm Afraid The Old Girl Has Just Snuffed It.

[Lilyofthevalley]

She just passed

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/21/tammy.faye/index.html

I'm glad she is no longer suffering.

I'm glad too. After all, as humans, we're all in the same boat. And I'm sad too.

I think Tammy Faye did her bit as far as her view of life allowed her. I personally will never forget her saying on one programme, 'I go around my house thanking God for my washing machine, my tumble drier, my refrigerator etc'. She recalled the days when she owned hardly any clothes - for school she had one black skirt that she ironed every morning.

This can be interpreted as cynically as anyone likes. Personally, I say, God bless her.

[Spherical Time]

She just passed

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/21/tammy.faye/index.html

I'm glad she is no longer suffering.That is too bad. Tammy Faye was a good woman, and I'm saddened by her passing.

[iLoveKnowledge]

She's not in pain anymore - that's probably the best part of her death.

[windsofchange]

Goodbye, Tammy Faye, sweetie - I'll remember you every time I reapply my mascara.

[OldYgg]

Ahhh - perhaps they had some knowledge of the nearness of her death when they did the King show.

Something of a last words interview. I feel more for her - having seen part of the interview and the timing of her death. It certainly served to humanize her more - with the commonality of human suffering than certain others who passed still touting hellfire and destruction.

Old Ygg

[ELECTROGOD]

Boy, their son sure became a professional apologist for his parents dishonesty and criminal behavior...goes well with his god belief and his career as a "pastor".

[Tubby Lardmore]

Boy, their son sure became a professional apologist for his parents dishonesty and criminal behavior...goes well with his god belief and his career as a "pastor".

Agreed. That is immensely disappointing. He was in a perfect position to see the fraudulence of it all. I wonder it comes down to him simply taking the path of least resistance at making a living for himself.

[steamer]

I never liked her. I really don't care that she's dead.

[InfinityRamAir]

I just saw the Larry King interview today. Thank goodness she is no longer suffering as she was clearly in pain. She was so kind to everyone and was a terrific woman.

May your god bless you, Tammy Faye!