Searching for a list of the crimes of Muhammad.

[David M. Payne]

Searching for a list of the crimes of Muhammad.

I'm looking for a list of crimes committed by the "prophet" Muhammad. I'm pretty familiar with the pedophile charge regarding Aisha, who he married when she was 6 and who had sex with him at nine, but I've never seen a comprehensive list of other crimes he committed on his rise to and when holding power over his creation, Islam. Anyone here know of any links to such a list?

David

[Ruiner]

Searching for a list of the crimes of Muhammad.

I'm looking for a list of crimes committed by the "prophet" Muhammad. I'm pretty familiar with the pedophile charge regarding Aisha, who he married when she was 6 and who had sex with him at nine, but I've never seen a comprehensive list of other crimes he committed on his rise to and when holding power over his creation, Islam. Anyone here know of any links to such a list?

David
You may already be aware of this site:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Actually, you probably wanted the Hadith. =) But the quran is just as absurd anywho.


ETA: Found this after a bit of sifting through searches. http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_Islams_Terrorist_Dogma_in_Muhammads_Own_Words.Islam

[David M. Payne]

You may already be aware of this site:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Actually, you probably wanted the Hadith. =) But the quran is just as absurd anywho.


ETA: Found this after a bit of sifting through searches. http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_Islams_Terrorist_Dogma_in_Muhammads_Own_Words.Islam

I was hoping to find a list of what we would consider crimes by Muhammad but at this point it doesn’t look like there is one. I've seen the skeptics site before and it doesn’t have one, just a translation of the Qur'an. The Prophet of doom had some good stuff but it is obviously written by a Christian with an agenda that includes dissing Islam and promoting Christianity. Oh well perhaps someone will take the time to shift through the references and compile a list. I can't, still working on the Film "Holy War" and working 40 hrs to support myself, so I don't have the time to do it. (Making a movie is turning out to be a lot harder than I thought it would be and very time consuming too.)

David

[Blui]

You should research this material yourself, it is not hard.

If you can't be bothered, i can do it later.

How will you say what Muhammad did was a crime? is it based on todays standards?

Off the top of my head.

-He voided all peace agreements/treaties and gave an ultimatum for pagans to get out of the Arab peninsula before killing all of them

-Had sex with a 9 year old girl

-Allowed husbands to beat their wives.

-Tortured and killed his critics

-Allowed the capture and rape of females during war

[Gawen]

The "crimes " of Muhammad may not have been crimes in the time of Muhammad.

[David M. Payne]

The "crimes " of Muhammad may not have been crimes in the time of Muhammad.

I think robbery, murder and rape would still be crimes even in those times.

David

[David M. Payne]

You should research this material yourself, it is not hard.

If you can't be bothered, i can do it later.

How will you say what Muhammad did was a crime? is it based on todays standards?

Off the top of my head.

-He voided all peace agreements/treaties and gave an ultimatum for pagans to get out of the Arab peninsula before killing all of them

-Had sex with a 9 year old girl

-Allowed husbands to beat their wives.

-Tortured and killed his critics

-Allowed the capture and rape of females during war

See my post above yours above for the time constraints I'm facing right now.

David

[Fayzal Mahamed]

In my opinion the greatest crime committed by Prophet Muhammad is the slaughter (genocide?) of all those male adult Jews from the Jewish tribe in Medina that rebelled against Prophet Muhammad's rule.

The saddest tragedy of this crime is that it took place after the tribe surrendered for peace after suffering a long siege. The Jewish women and children were either sold as slaves or acted as concubines to their Arab masters.

I've seen some of the comments that claim some of the crimes were not actual crimes during the days of Prophet Muhammad. I have a short shrift answer to that claim. If Prophet Muhammad was chosen by God as His Prophet than Prophet Muhammad should have known better!

Fayzal

[Blui]

See my post above yours above for the time constraints I'm facing right now.

David
I might be able to compile my list in 6-7 hours with references.

[Blui]

I've seen some of the comments that claim some of the crimes were not actual crimes during the days of Prophet Muhammad. I have a short shrift answer to that claim. If Prophet Muhammad was chosen by God as His Prophet than Prophet Muhammad should have known better!

Fayzal
Ive always found this a fascinating argument.

How does one say it is 'a crime'? does it require someone saying it is wrong in the perpetrator's time? well then someone definitely did say it was wrong, so is it a crime?

Or does it require some arbitrary amount of people to say it was wrong?

does it require his immoral acts to be outside 'norms'? how does one establish these norms? how do we arbitrarily specify a range of time to say 'ok since there was alot of wars, that he started a war does not make him immoral'?

Can we possibly use this defense today? there has been many conflicts in the world, is violent conflict therefore not immoral at all?

[David M. Payne]

I might be able to compile my list in 6-7 hours with references.

If you do that with good references you will be creating a very valuable asset for those of us that oppose Islam and its constant need for war and conquest and submission to its dogma and religious leaders.

David

[Mughal]

The following link may be of some help.

http://www.atheistforums.com/viewforum.php?f=20

[David M. Payne]

The following link may be of some help.

http://www.atheistforums.com/viewforum.php?f=20

I just registered, waiting for the conformation e-mail now. Good to see more and more freethinker sites poping up on the internet. Good to see you again Mughal. ;) You might enjoy my short on Osama on you tube below.

David

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6M72lMclaw

[Blui]

-He voided all peace agreements/treaties and gave an ultimatum for pagans to get out of the Arab peninsula before killing all of them

Quran
9:1 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.

9:2 Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).

9:3 And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

9:4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir
This Ayah refers to idolators who had indefinite treaties and those, whose treaties with Muslims ended in less than four months. The terms of these treaties were restricted to four months only. As for those whose term of peace ended at a specific date later (than the four months), then their treaties would end when their terms ended, no matter how long afterwards

...

meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolators, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next,

...
do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

So Muhammad said all indefinite peace treaties will end in 4 months, and any definite (ie has a time frame longer then 4 months) will end per the agreed time.

After either 4 months or whenever the definite peace treaty ended, kill the pagans.


-Had sex with a 9 year old girl

Narrated Hisham's father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.236

Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064


-Allowed husbands to beat their wives.

quran
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great

Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab:

Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/011.sat.html#011.2141


-Allowed the capture and rape of females during war
Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:

I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.459

This last one may be misleading, Muhammad is telling them they should not pull out when they ejaculate (coitus interruptus).

That he say's any soul destined to live will live by the will of Allah, is an implied endorsement that these captives getting pregnant is the will of Allah.


I didn't get the reference for the killing of critics because it requires heavy digging into the Hadiths, i'll get it later, basically the one i remember is Muhammad endorsed the killing of a pregnant woman who slandered Muhammad for killing a man from her village who slandered Muhammad.

There is another, supposedly a leader of a Muslim warband said that Muhammad gave out these commands to all the Muslims, issue a declaration to any non-Muslim village to convert to Islam, if they don't they must pay the Jizya (tax on non-Muslims), if they don't do this, kill them.

This is easily seen in the Quran, but getting the Hadith for that will take some time.

[Mughal]

I just registered, waiting for the conformation e-mail now. Good to see more and more freethinker sites poping up on the internet. Good to see you again Mughal. ;) You might enjoy my short on Osama on you tube below.

David

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6M72lMclaw


Well that was devilish work against the holy writ if I may say so dear david. My friend it is time to run for the cave.

Here are a couple of links to videos where top muslim scholars are offering justifications for terrorists and pedophilia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV3WbZjIlJ4&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjWqRTBRzQ&mode=related&search=


Hope to see you soon on the other forum as well.

Keep up the good work, good luck and all the best.

[hokowo]

In my opinion the greatest crime committed by Prophet Muhammad is the slaughter (genocide?) of all those male adult Jews from the Jewish tribe in Medina that rebelled against Prophet Muhammad's rule.

The saddest tragedy of this crime is that it took place after the tribe surrendered for peace after suffering a long siege. The Jewish women and children were either sold as slaves or acted as concubines to their Arab masters.

I've seen some of the comments that claim some of the crimes were not actual crimes during the days of Prophet Muhammad. I have a short shrift answer to that claim. If Prophet Muhammad was chosen by God as His Prophet than Prophet Muhammad should have known better!

Fayzal

They, the Jews, switched sides during the battle and the war was not over , also the infrastructure was not available to maintian them in prisoner of war camps or prison's , hence the practical thing is to kill the traitors. as the law of the jew followed this as well.

from wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Trench

Aftermath
The Muslims now commenced a 25-day siege against the Banu Qurazya's fortress. Finally, both sides agreed to arbitration. A former ally of the Banu Qurayza, an Arab chief named Sa'd ibn Mu'adh, now a Muslim, was chosen as judge. Sa'd, one of the few casualties of battle, would soon die of his wounds. If the earlier tribal relations had been in force, he would have certainly spared the Banu Qurayza. His fellow chiefs urged him to pardon these former allies, but he refused. He saw that Qurayza had breached the Convention of Medina and failed to honor their agreement to protect the town, and thus they had betrayed Muhammad. Sa'd asked what the punishment is for treachery in the Jewish tradition and said that whatever their faith would be that of their law(The Torah dictates death for those who betray). Sa'd officially ruled that all the men should be killed, and the women and children enslaved. Muhammad accepted his judgment, and declared that Sa'd's judgment had coincided with Allah's judgment. The next day, according to Muslim sources, a number between 700-900 Jewish men of the Banu Qurayza were executed in the market of Medina. However, those Jewish men who had rejected the treachery were not executed.

[hokowo]

I've seen some of the comments that claim some of the crimes were not actual crimes during the days of Prophet Muhammad. I have a short shrift answer to that claim. If Prophet Muhammad was chosen by God as His Prophet than Prophet Muhammad should have known better!

Fayzal

It was not a crime then and is still not today.

for small example lets look at blui's off the top remakrs

-He voided all peace agreements/treaties and gave an ultimatum for pagans to get out of the Arab peninsula before killing all of them

hot steam , prove he broke those treaties and what you posted in this thread is not relevant . As for the pagans then .well in a war situation if the enemy does not leave hey. its practically the best thing to do . kill them i mean they intend to kill you , natural self defense principles that is always relevant in all ages and times.

-Had sex with a 9 year old girl he had sex with a girl past her puberty, who was 9 years old. and now what is actually wrong with that if the girl agreed and was even very happy with him.

yeah yeah some countries say 16 is legal age and others say less or more, that will change , from a medical point of view a woman is an adult or full reproducing woman at what ever age is occurs, that is when she can make children she is old enough for sex, no matter what age that is. He , muhamman had sex with aisha, when she was a fully reproducing adult and in those days it did not take 12 years of school plus 4 years of uni te get ready to make a living or be a wife.

so rule still applies when a woman's body can reproduce and she is mentally stable or educated enough to be married for the time they live in then hey why should they not allowed to have sex with someone who they want to be married to and some one they even like.

-Allowed husbands to beat their wives.

always depend how you beat, beat to death or beat them out of the house or beat them till they come. hey i mean many a people even pay people to beat them to get some sexual pleasure. so the issue is about the extent . applicable in this life and age as well. does it say anywhere they can beat the wome n till she is in hospital or in severe pain. or totally humiliated of scarred.

-Tortured and killed his critics

hot steam prove it dude

-Allowed the capture and rape of females during war

hot steam dude. prove it where they were allowed to rape the captives of war.

[Blui]

hot steam , prove he broke those treaties and what you posted in this thread is not relevant . As for the pagans then .well in a war situation if the enemy does not leave hey. its practically the best thing to do . kill them i mean they intend to kill you , natural self defense principles that is always relevant in all ages and times.

The Quran proves it.
Please read my posts.


Quran
9:1 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.

9:2 Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).

9:3 And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

9:4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir
This Ayah refers to idolators who had indefinite treaties and those, whose treaties with Muslims ended in less than four months. The terms of these treaties were restricted to four months only. As for those whose term of peace ended at a specific date later (than the four months), then their treaties would end when their terms ended, no matter how long afterwards

...

meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolators, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next,

...
do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

The Quran specifically states peace treaties with idolators are to end.
When they end, kill them all.


he had sex with a girl past her puberty, who was 9 years old. and now what is actually wrong with that if the girl agreed and was even very happy with him.

It is not possible to to prove Aisha was past puberty, post your evidence.


yeah yeah some countries say 16 is legal age and others say less or more, that will change , from a medical point of view a woman is an adult or full reproducing woman at what ever age is occurs, that is when she can make children she is old enough for sex, no matter what age that is. He , muhamman had sex with aisha, when she was a fully reproducing adult and in those days it did not take 12 years of school plus 4 years of uni te get ready to make a living or be a wife.

If so, it is quite striking Aisha never bore a child, considering she was Muhammads favourite sexual partner.

It is not possible to prove Aisha was past puberty, post your evidence.


always depend how you beat, beat to death or beat them out of the house or beat them till they come. hey i mean many a people even pay people to beat them to get some sexual pleasure. so the issue is about the extent . applicable in this life and age as well. does it say anywhere they can beat the wome n till she is in hospital or in severe pain. or totally humiliated of scarred.

Physically disciplining a wife for fear of rebellious attitude is always wrong.

How severe? it is not supposed to be very severe, and not on the face.


hot steam prove it dude

Then (occurred) the sariyyah of Umayr ibn adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against Asma Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah. Asma was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind, and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him Umayr "Basir" (the seeing)
-Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir

And in the Sirat Rasullelah

" When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" `Umayr b. `Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O `Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so `Umayr went back to his people.

Now there was a great commotion among B. Khatma that day about the affair of bint [daughter of] Marwan. She had five sons, and when `Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, "I have killed bint Marwan, O sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don't keep me waiting." That was the first day Islam became powerful among B. Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact. The first of them to accept Islam was `Umayr b. `Adiy who was called the "Reader", and `Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit. The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam. "


hot steam dude. prove it where they were allowed to rape the captives of war.
read my posts more carefully.


Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:

I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.459

[hokowo]

=Blui;4449045]The Quran proves it.
Please read my posts.

i did and mentioned this was dealt with already, so i ignore this


The Quran specifically states peace treaties with idolators are to end.
When they end, kill them all.

yes its not use making a treaty with pagans who continuousy break them, and yes while they are at war with you kill them all. certainly practical advice.


It is not possible to to prove Aisha was past puberty, post your evidence.

so now its no more that she is 9 that bothers you.. lol. just to humour you if he was a child lover paedophile why wait 3 years, why not just take her at 6. and why stop with only one girl. i mean he had the power.

nah, you show me she was not past puberty, i mean its seems you are the only dude (perhaps a few others of the modern age who seems to think she was not) you made the claim.


It is not possible to prove Aisha was past puberty, post your evidence.

should i post the reverse, post evidence she was not. already asked for this on this site. no eveidence to date.

try again later.


Physically disciplining a wife for fear of rebellious attitude is always wrong.

well your opinion is noted. and please define physically?


read my posts more carefully

practice what you preach

what you pasted only says they had sex with captives , nothing about rape

. please read you own posts.

thanks

[hokowo]

said: "No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him Umayr "Basir" (the seeing)
-Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir

And in the Sirat Rasullelah

" When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" `Umayr b. `Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O `Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so `Umayr went back to his people.

Now there was a great commotion among B. Khatma that day about the affair of bint [daughter of] Marwan. She had five sons, and when `Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, "I have killed bint Marwan, O sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don't keep me waiting." That was the first day Islam became powerful among B. Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact. The first of them to accept Islam was `Umayr b. `Adiy who was called the "Reader", and `Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit. The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam. "


read my posts more carefully.


dont confuse issues. or is that your tactic? can be a way to go

its about this

5.32 For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

the woman was causing corruption in a time of war. a dangerous game to play. she was assasinated end of story. are assasinations then something which you dont agree with in times of war or not? i mean all nations do it nowadays or what?

its not about beating your wife.

which can be a sexual thing. part of foreplay at thing many a folk pay for.

[Dolph]

yeah yeah some countries say 16 is legal age and others say less or more, that will change , from a medical point of view a woman is an adult or full reproducing woman at what ever age is occurs

From a medical point of view it's much more dangerous for young girls to get pregnant. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about here.

The practice of Mohammed is the inspiration of the law in countries such as Yemen and Saudi-Arabia. His practice makes it legal to be a pedophile in those countries. If Mohammed was alive today, he would be considered a pedophile.

You are defending this.

[hokowo]

=Dolph;4449202]From a medical point of view it's much more dangerous for young girls to get pregnant. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about here.

From a medical point of view it's much more dangerous for old women to get pregnant. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about here.

The practice of Mohammed is the inspiration of the law in countries such as Yemen and Saudi-Arabia. His practice makes it legal to be a pedophile in those countries. If Mohammed was alive today, he would be considered a pedophile.

your opinion is noted. Muhammad makes it clear that a woman must be mukallaf before she can marry an man who i salso mukallaf, look it up yourself what mukallaf means, since i did explain it before.

well, i know you wont, it means,

past puberty.
sane
aware
etc.


You are defending this.

what are you propogatting- thats the real questions

[premjan]

Young women getting pregnant stops them from completing their growth. So it is also a problem.

[Dolph]

From a medical point of view it's much more dangerous for old women to get pregnant. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about here.

Yes it's more dangerous if you are old. Do you see the difference? Do you see why a nine year old doesn't get to vote or drive a car and a forty-five year old does? Or is that question too hard for you?

your opinion is noted. Muhammad makes it clear that a woman must be mukallaf before she can marry an man who i salso mukallaf, look it up yourself what mukallaf means, since i did explain it before.
well, i know you wont, it means,

past puberty.
sane
aware
etc.

Yes I know what it means. The problem you have is that there is no lower age for marriage in islam. Only for consumating it.

This is what a mainstream islamic webpage has to say of the matter:

"If they disagree, then Ahmad and Abu ‘Ubayd say that one a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger."

You surely know that when a young human being goes through puberty it doesn't take two weeks. Or no, you clearly don't, since you fail to see this over and over again.

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=22442&ln=eng

what are you propogatting- thats the real questions

That unless this ends, the countries following the examples of Muhammed will continue to aid pedophiles.

[hokowo]

Young women getting pregnant stops them from completing their growth. So it is also a problem.

really can you post some infor on this issue. how young would you reackon is too young then? many people anyway have already done most of their lengh growth before puberty. anyway. so its mostly not a hassle.

[Dolph]

really can you post some infor on this issue. how young would you reackon is too young then? many people anyway have already done most of their lengh growth before puberty. anyway. so its mostly not a hassle.

No, DURING puberty. Not before.

"In their teens, children put on an amazing growth spurt to reach their final adult height. At their fastest, boys can grow taller by as much as 9cm a year and girls at a rate of 8cm a year. It's no wonder teenagers are clumsy. Their body is shooting upwards at a speed their brain simply cannot keep up with."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/body/articles/lifecycle/teenagers/growth.shtml

[hokowo]

=Dolph;4449311]Yes it's more dangerous if you are old. Do you see the difference? Do you see why a nine year old doesn't get to vote or drive a car and a forty-five year old does? Or is that question too hard for you?

do you see that a 9 year old can be ready for sex and kids? the fact that she may not be ready for drving a car is not relevant.



This is what a mainstream islamic webpage has to say of the matter:

"If they disagree, then Ahmad and Abu ‘Ubayd say that one a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger."

You surely know that when a young human being goes through puberty it doesn't take two weeks. Or no, you clearly don't, since you fail to see this over and over again.

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=22442&ln=eng



That unless this ends, the countries following the examples of Muhammed will continue to aid pedophiles.


here is the complete quote from that site that dolpd FORGOT to paste. Now i wonder why would some chose to misslead like that?

The fact that it is permissible to marry a young girl does not mean that it is permissible to have intercourse with her; rather that should not be done until she is able for it. For that reason the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed the consummation of his marriage to ‘Aa’ishah. Al-Nawawi said: With regard to the wedding-party of a young married girl at the time of consummating the marriage, if the husband and the guardian of the girl agree upon something that will not cause harm to the young girl, then that may be done. If they disagree, then Ahmad and Abu ‘Ubayd say that one a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger. Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Abu Haneefah said: the marriage may be consummated when the girl is able for intercourse, which varies from one girl to another, so no age limit can be set. This is the correct view. There is nothing in the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah to set an age limit, or to forbid that in the case of a girl who is able for it before the age of nine, or to allow it in the case of a girl who is not able for it and has reached the age of nine. Al-Dawoodi said: ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) was reached physical maturity (at the time when her marriage was consummated).

[Cheerful Charlie]

Searching for a list of the crimes of Muhammad.

I'm looking for a list of crimes committed by the "prophet" Muhammad. I'm pretty familiar with the pedophile charge regarding Aisha, who he married when she was 6 and who had sex with him at nine, but I've never seen a comprehensive list of other crimes he committed on his rise to and when holding power over his creation, Islam. Anyone here know of any links to such a list?

David


I have never seen a really comprehensive list. I have seen partial lists.

Sources of crimes would be:
1. Quran - Dermands to kill idolaters et al.
2. Early histories of Mohammed, mainly Ibn Ishaq's "Life of Mohammed".
As far as I can tell, Ibn Ishaq is not online. This history is the main
source for secondary histories.
3. Hadiths.

Ibn Ishaq's biography has a long list of crimes, starting with Mohammed's raids on caravan, even during holy months where Arabian tribes were to put aside such attacks. Mohammed started life as a thief and murderer.
He practiced torture and mass murder. He was a dictorial cult leader.
Ishaq's biography is a major source of Mohammed's criminal activities.

Hadiths are the next big source. Many collections of these are online.

Cheerful Charlie

[Dolph]

do you see that a 9 year old can be ready for sex and kids? the fact that she may not be ready for drving a car is not relevant.

Yes it is. You aren't allowed to make some decisions until you reach a certain age. To protect the child and because the child isnt mentally ready.

This is what happens to young girls getting pregnant:

"Almaz was only 13 when she became pregnant. Married at 12, the Ethiopian girl's tiny and fragile body was not ready for the strain of pregnancy and childbirth. After two days of labour pains, she was told to keep pushing. By the sixth day, her child was finally born, but it was dead. Her gruelling labour ripped her insides, leaving a hole between her bladder and vagina. The damage left her body unable to control its normal excretory functions"

http://www.unfpa.org/news/news.cfm?ID=107&Language=1

I'm sure you'd love that huh?

here is the complete quote from that site that dolpd FORGOT to paste. Now i wonder why would some chose to misslead like that?

Are you kidding me? Why do you think I posted the link? You are free to remove you tinfoil hat anytime now. And close down all those webpages where it says "the joos staged 9/11!!!" as well. I chose to paste the most distubing part. The part where a mainstream islamic page allows says it's ok to rape nine year olds.

All they talk about is her being ready for it. Kids can't decide those things. Small kids want to please their parents and others. They base it mainly on her not objecting and beeing physically ready, and that means in the beginning of puberty in this case. Nine year olds in the beginning of puberty are not ready to have sex, especially not with 53 year old men. If you can't see that, then I guess you approve of people haveing sex with kids.

Still you never objected to having sex with a nine year old wihtout her consent. Do you think people should be allowed to have sex with nine year olds without their consent?

[hokowo]

No, DURING puberty. Not before.

"In their teens, children put on an amazing growth spurt to reach their final adult height. At their fastest, boys can grow taller by as much as 9cm a year and girls at a rate of 8cm a year. It's no wonder teenagers are clumsy. Their body is shooting upwards at a speed their brain simply cannot keep up with."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/body/articles/lifecycle/teenagers/growth.shtml

well teens are certainly ready for sex, as can be seen by the activities of many teens,

anyway aisha did not get pregnant , so there we go no concern that an early pregnancy stunted her growth. perhaps nother lesson in there.

you can consumate a marriage when a woman is ready for sex and make a kid when the body is most ready for it.

[Dolph]

well teens are certainly ready for sex, as can be seen by the activities of many teens,

anyway aisha did not get pregnant , so there we go no concern that an early pregnancy stunted her growth. perhaps nother lesson in there.

you can consumate a marriage when a woman is ready for sex and make a kid when the body is most ready for it.

You just don't get it. If a girl reaches puberty she has a lot of growing to do. A lot of countries has laws allowing either Aishas age to be the legal age or when she reaches puberty.

They grow DURING puberty. Puberty isn't two weeks, even if you wish it was.

EDIT:

Oh you forgot to bold this part before:

"or to forbid that in the case of a girl who is able for it before the age of nine, or to allow it in the case of a girl who is not able for it and has reached the age of nine."

Yep that is really disgusting.

[Cheerful Charlie]

The "crimes " of Muhammad may not have been crimes in the time of Muhammad.


In Arabia,there were sacred months warfare was to be set aside for religious reasons. Crafty Mohammed attacked caravans during that month reasoning the caravaners would not be expecting his attacks. He started life as a desert pirate, thief and murderer who broke the most sacred treaties of that age purposefully. It most certainly was a crime and was seen as such by all in Arabia at that time.

Source, Ibn Ishaq's biography of Mohammed. Written 100 years after his death, drawing on earlier biographies.

Cheerful Charlie

[premjan]

really can you post some infor on this issue. how young would you reackon is too young then? many people anyway have already done most of their lengh growth before puberty. anyway. so its mostly not a hassle.
My grandmother got pregnant at the age of 13 or so, and never got very tall, which I think is a result, since she's the shortest person in our extended family. That is just an anecdote of course.

But the age of menarche in girls in developed countries is somewhere in the range of 12-14, which is well before the completion of physical development which generally takes place at 16-18 years for women. So prima facie your statement can't be right. It may not make a huge difference but it does make some difference for sure.

Anyway it is not early sex but early pregnancy that is the problem.

[Dolph]

Searching for a list of the crimes of Muhammad.

I'm looking for a list of crimes committed by the "prophet" Muhammad. I'm pretty familiar with the pedophile charge regarding Aisha, who he married when she was 6 and who had sex with him at nine, but I've never seen a comprehensive list of other crimes he committed on his rise to and when holding power over his creation, Islam. Anyone here know of any links to such a list?

David

Here is something you might be interested in:

"Chapter 1: REGARDING PERMISSION TO MAKE A RAID, WITHOUT AN ULTIMATUM, UPON THE DISBELIEVERS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN INVITED TO ACCEPT ISLAM


Book 019, Number 4292:

Ibn 'Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before m". ing them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html

[hokowo]

=Dolph;4449414]
All they talk about is her being ready for it. Kids can't decide those things. Small kids want to please their parents and others. They base it mainly on her not objecting and beeing physically ready, and that means in the beginning of puberty in this case. Nine year olds in the beginning of puberty are not ready to have sex, especially not with 53 year old men. If you can't see that, then I guess you approve of people haveing sex with kids.

well your medical and psyco analysis are noted

Still you never objected to having sex with a nine year old wihtout her consent. Do you think people should be allowed to have sex with nine year olds without their consent?

did you miss it when i said on many occasions both must agree to getting married? and hence having sex.

or what game are you playing here?

your question is rather irritating and condescending.

oh but you think a kid would just do it to please parents or other adults and still be happy.

aishe certainly showed signs of being unhappy in her marraige. bullshit, she was happy with her husband. kids who are abused are never happy. even adults who are abused even if they are brainwashed into agreeing.

[hokowo]

My grandmother got pregnant at the age of 13 or so, and never got very tall, which I think is a result, since she's the shortest person in our extended family. That is just an anecdote of course.

But the age of menarche in girls in developed countries is somewhere in the range of 12-14, which is well before the completion of physical development which generally takes place at 16-18 years for women. So prima facie your statement can't be right. It may not make a huge difference but it does make some difference for sure.

Anyway it is not early sex but early pregnancy that is the problem.

yes early pregnancy i can see as an issue, then again aisha did not have that problem so i suppose muhammad knew about that then.

[Dolph]

well your medical and psyco analysis are noted

So you have nothing to say in your defence. Noted.

did you miss it when i said on many occasions both must agree to getting married? and hence having sex.

Yeah I think that got lost when I understood you could marry a girl who's six and then try to make it out as if she make a mature choice. Nice try though.

or what game are you playing here?

Game? Throw the pedophile down the well?

your question is rather irritating and condescending.

So, yes or no?

oh but you think a kid would just do it to please parents or other adults and still be happy.

Yes, I think small children trust their parents and want to see them happy.

aishe certainly showed signs of being unhappy in her marraige. bullshit, she was happy with her husband. kids who are abused are never happy. even adults who are abused even if they are brainwashed into agreeing.

Yeah, that's why she lost all her hair. She was so happy. Did you know her well?

[hokowo]

=Dolph;4449488]So you have nothing to say in your defence. Noted.

noted that your point and analysis makes no sense and is not medically backed in anyway


Yeah I think that got lost when I understood you could marry a girl who's six and then try to make it out as if she make a mature choice. Nice try though.

is it my fault that some folk cannot understand?

Game? Throw the pedophile down the well?

is this the game you dream of?


So, yes or no?

pick a number

Yes, I think small children trust their parents and want to see them happy.

you dont know?

Yeah, that's why she lost all her hair. She was so happy. Did you know her well?

did too

[hokowo]

Here is something you might be interested in:

"Chapter 1: REGARDING PERMISSION TO MAKE A RAID, WITHOUT AN ULTIMATUM, UPON THE DISBELIEVERS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN INVITED TO ACCEPT ISLAM


Book 019, Number 4292:

Ibn 'Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before m". ing them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html

during war tactics and ambushes are used all the time.

great advice when at war with a folk who have been oppressing you as these folk did back then.

[Dolph]

during war tactics and ambushed is used all the time.

great advice when at war with a folk who have been oppressing you as these folk did back then.

He attacked them in their backs. So much for honor ey?

[premjan]

yes early pregnancy i can see as an issue, then again aisha did not have that problem so i suppose muhammad knew about that then.
maybe aisha didn't but I bet some of the women who are married earlier under sharia do.
Young girls who get married will most likely be forced into having sexual intercourse with their, usually much older, husbands. This has severe negative health consequences as the girl is often not psychologically, physically and sexually mature. Child brides are likely to become pregnant at an early age and there is a strong correlation between the age of a mother and maternal mortality and morbidity. Girls aged l0-14 are five times more likely to die in pregnancy or childbirth than women aged 20-24 and girls aged 15-19 are twice as likely to die [4]. The body of a young girl is not yet ready for pregnancy and childbirth, which leads to complications such as obstructed labour and obstetric fistula. Obstetric fistula can also be caused by the early sexual relations associated with child marriage, which take place sometimes even before menarche. Good prenatal care reduces the risk of childbirth complications, but in many instances, due to their limited autonomy or freedom of movement, young wives have no access to health services, which aggravates the risks of maternal complications and mortality for pregnant adolescents. Because young girls are not ready for the responsibilities and roles of being a wife, sexual partner and a mother, child marriage has a serious negative impact on their psychological well-being and personal development.
http://www.iheu.org/node/2554

[hokowo]

He attacked them in their backs. So much for honor ey?

thats what an ambush is dude.

[Dolph]

[QUOTE]noted that your point and analysis makes no sense and is not medically backed in anyway

I backed it. Look in the thread. You are desperate.

is it my fault that some folk cannot understand?

No, it's Muhammeds and islams fault.

is this the game you dream of?

No humor. Noted.

pick a number

Just answer me. Would you have sex with a "ready" nine year old without her consent?

you dont know?

You never met children? Did they seem to like or hate their parents?

did too

Would you sleep with her when she was nine?

[hokowo]

maybe aisha didn't but I bet some of the women who are married earlier under sharia do.

http://www.iheu.org/node/2554

can be . but it is clear the islamic example did not make a young woman pregnant. setting a standard

so what others do. hey thats there choice.

[geddit?]

Just curious.

In all of the world today,
in all of the experiences any person here has had:

Have you ever come across a situation where a 50 something year old man is/was copulating with a 9 year and you thought it was acceptable behavior?

If you answer yes, please explain why.

[espritch]

do you see that a 9 year old can be ready for sex and kids? the fact that she may not be ready for drving a car is not relevant.


No, I really can't see how a 9 year old would be ready for sex with a 56 year old man. I don't think what Muhammad did was even normal for those days, which is why some Hadith writers claimed she was 14 at the time of the marriage. I think they were uncomfortable with the implication that their perfect man was a child molester.

[hokowo]

=Dolph;4449540]

[QUOTE]I backed it. Look in the thread. You are desperate.

really ?

No, it's Muhammeds and islams fault.

based on your amazing abilities. well done

No humor. Noted.

double note

Just answer me. Would you have sex with a "ready" nine year old without her consent?

is this really a trick question or a dumb question

You never met children? Did they seem to like or hate their parents?

did you meet childen whose parents where abusing them that were happy with their parents

Would you sleep with her when she was nine?

i would even sleep with a new born baby. honestly i even did that on many occasions, quite tiring business, then the bottle feeds and nappy changes. perhaps you could help me out there abit

[premjan]

can be . but it is clear the islamic example did not make a young woman pregnant. setting a standard
so what others do. hey thats there choice.
There are a lot of young pregnant women who are not Muslims. It is just that Islam contains a defect in its recommendation itself. So people ought to know this especially if they are Muslims.

[Makeshift Universe]

Judging the actions of a man from a completely different age and civilization by our own cultural standards and contemporary definitions of crime is quite absurd. What is the point of compiling such a list other than trying to piss off moslems? However savage he was, the immidiate results of his efforts was a great deal of progress in many areas - womens rights included, believe it or not. You can of course blame him for creating a stagnant religion with a backwards view on many things, but this is a rather new view on Islam and a result of our own civilization's incredibly rapid developement, I believe.

[hokowo]

There are a lot of young pregnant women who are not Muslims. It is just that Islam contains a defect in its recommendation itself. So people ought to know this especially if they are Muslims.

no islam set a good example in that it did not make a young girl pregnant

[premjan]

no islam set a good example in that it did not make a young girl pregnant
Well, the example is probably hard to follow. Maybe aisha was infertile I don't know how Muhammad managed it. Maybe by the age of 50+ he himself was no longer fertile.

[geddit?]

no islam set a good example in that it did not make a young girl pregnant

So....

When a 50 something year old man copulates with a 9 year old girl, it's OK as long as she doesn't get pregnant?

This is actually a good example of how to conduct your life?

[geddit?]

I'm just speaking as a fella that is the product of his culture - Hey, maybe I'm the fucked up one.

A 53 year old man convinces my 9 year old daughter to run off and marry him. He then consumates that marriage.
Those who are in a position of authority take no action against this man for whatever reason.

I then hunt him down and kill the ever lovin' shit out of him.

The members of this board are on the jury at my murder trial. I admit that I killed him.

Who here would convict me?

[espritch]

Judging the actions of a man from a completely different age and civilization by our own cultural standards and contemporary definitions of crime is quite absurd. What is the point of compiling such a list other than trying to piss off moslems? However savage he was, the immidiate results of his efforts was a great deal of progress in many areas - womens rights included, believe it or not. You can of course blame him for creating a stagnant religion with a backwards view on many things, but this is a rather new view on Islam and a result of our own civilization's incredibly rapid developement, I believe.

The point is that Islam holds up Mohammad as the perfect man; the exemplar of how a man should live his life. That means over a billion people look to the actions of a man from a completely different age and civilization for guidance on how to conduct their lives.

If you know anything about how Mohammad actually conducted his life, that should scare the shit out of you.

[geddit?]

^^^^^^^
Precisely.

[Bloodnf]

I'm just speaking as a fella that is the product of his culture - Hey, maybe I'm the fucked up one.

A 53 year old man convinces my 9 year old daughter to run off and marry him. He then consumates that marriage.
Those who are in a position of authority take no action against this man for whatever reason.

I then hunt him down and kill the ever lovin' shit out of him.

The members of this board are on the jury at my murder trial. I admit that I killed him.

Who here would convict me?

Yet, the girls family approved the marriage. In fact the marriage was contracted by a marriage broker who was hired? to find Mohammad a wife. She brought back two candidates, an older widow and a younger girl. Mohammad married the widow Sawdah bint Zam‘a first. When Ayesha reached her physical maturity that marriage was consummated. No one seems to have objected to this marriage or commented on Ayesha's age until recent times. It seems none of his enemies brought up this issue at the time.

[geddit?]

Yet, the girls family approved the marriage. In fact the marriage was contracted by a marriage broker who was hired? to find Mohammad a wife. She brought back two candidates, an older widow and a younger girl. Mohammad married the widow Sawdah bint Zam‘a first. When Ayesha reached her physical maturity that marriage was consummated. No one seems to have objected to this marriage or commented on Ayesha's age until recent times. It seems none of his enemies brought up this issue at the time.

Thanks for responding Bloodnf,

When I look at the actions of Mohammed, it's as a guy that's living today, growing up in American culture - all the good and bad of it and all the baggage that goes along with it.

What constituted maturity - physically, mentally and emotional - back then compared to today are two very different things.

Hadiths covering the subject vary broadly. I'm no expert on translations - others with more knowledge of the subject will have join in concerning what may or may not have taken place. I remember - correctly or incorrectly - that the father of the 6 year old wasn't very happy with his daughter being taken as bride by Mohammed in one of the Hadiths - and Mohammed essentially said "Too bad, my call not yours".

But, I have seen posted across more than a few forums the claim that Mohammed was a perfect man - from both men and women. It has been repeated ad nauseum.

With this in mind and in direct response to your post:

Would you broker away your 6 year old daughter to a man in his 50's?

Would it please you to know he consumated the marriage right after her first menses?

How do you feel about men immitating these behaviors in the world we live in today?

[Dolph]

really ?

Yep, stop trying to avoid the subject here. Now show me some sources fish.

based on your amazing abilities. well done

Ok, so you got nothing to say.

double note

Nice comeback. You guys really lack humor.

is this really a trick question or a dumb question

I really want to know. I guess you don't want to reveal that you would hit a nine year old, but I take that as a yes. No weaseling here, mate.

did you meet childen whose parents where abusing them that were happy with their parents

Why the hell do you think children blame themselves for being abused.<edited>

i would even sleep with a new born baby. honestly i even did that on many occasions, quite tiring business, then the bottle feeds and nappy changes. perhaps you could help me out there abit

Would you have sex with it if you thought it was "ready"?

[Blui]

dont confuse issues. or is that your tactic? can be a way to go

its about this

5.32 For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

the woman was causing corruption in a time of war. a dangerous game to play. she was assasinated end of story. are assasinations then something which you dont agree with in times of war or not? i mean all nations do it nowadays or what?
.
No i don't believe assassinations are justified in 'times of war' to anyone of the other race.

Are you somehow racist?

So if America was at war with Russia, it is justified to assassinate any Russian woman or child if they speak out against the war?

So America can kill any critics of the Iraq war?

Please stop using this senseless logic, what you are saying is if Muhammad is at war with a particular ethnic people, he has license to kill anyone of that ethnic group especially if they speak out against him.

Do note the woman complained that Muhammad was bad because Muhammad slaughtered her tribesmen and husband, do you somehow believe this is unfair of her?



its not about beating your wife.

which can be a sexual thing. part of foreplay at thing many a folk pay for

I truly feel sorry for you Hokowa, rarely have i met a religious person so bent of making their text positive that they will completely interpret a verse so outside its context.

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

If you are right, and the beating is for 'sexual foreplay' then i suppose the earlier justification for it, for rebellious behaviour, was roleplaying a rebellious wife during sex? oh and admonishing them and banishing them from the bed is also part of the sexual foreplay? maybe they were in heat and you want to tease them?

ROFL.

[Blui]

Judging the actions of a man from a completely different age and civilization by our own cultural standards and contemporary definitions of crime is quite absurd. What is the point of compiling such a list other than trying to piss off moslems? However savage he was, the immidiate results of his efforts was a great deal of progress in many areas - womens rights included, believe it or not. You can of course blame him for creating a stagnant religion with a backwards view on many things, but this is a rather new view on Islam and a result of our own civilization's incredibly rapid developement, I believe.
Muhammad was definitely guilty even back then of making womens plight worse, and of making religious tolerance worse.

For Muslims back then themselves remarked that Muslim women are suffering more then non-Muslim women, Aisha (Muhammads wife) commented that she had seen no one suffer as much as the 'believing women' and a husband complained to Muhammad that his wife was starting to talk back to him, picking up habits of the 'Ansari' women.

Of religious tolerance, The Quraiysh region was a hotbed of various religious factions, Jewish, Pagans and Christians, they had a tolerance for another, if an uneasy one.

[Triple Six]

Yet, the girls family approved the marriage. In fact the marriage was contracted by a marriage broker who was hired? to find Mohammad a wife. She brought back two candidates, an older widow and a younger girl. Mohammad married the widow Sawdah bint Zam‘a first. When Ayesha reached her physical maturity that marriage was consummated. No one seems to have objected to this marriage or commented on Ayesha's age until recent times. It seems none of his enemies brought up this issue at the time.

In some of the more backward societies in PNG if a woman is raped by a member of another clan than her own clan will often accept a compensation payment (usually a fairly derisory sum) in exchange for not taking the matter to the authorities. The poor victim of course will see little or none of this money and is in effect getting mistreated by her own family as well. Do you regard this as acceptable?

By the same token just because it is Ayesha's family that treat her like shit by farming her off to a sick old paedophile doesn't make it right. Neither does the excuse that paedophilia as practiced by mohammed was "normal" behaviour at the time. The prophet of allah's words and actions are supposed to be perfect and applicable in the 21st century, so modern standards do apply.

Next excuse?

[hokowo]

<consistency>

[hokowo]

=Blui;4451159]No i don't believe assassinations are justified in 'times of war' to anyone of the other race.

thats your opinion though its is done everyday, and is a thing of war times

Are you somehow racist?

are you?

So if America was at war with Russia, it is justified to assassinate any Russian woman or child if they speak out against the war?

people at war assinate those of the enemy they feel is a big threat. matey thats the reality of war.

So America can kill any critics of the Iraq war?

trust me , i am sure they kill those they feel are a threat.

Please stop using this senseless logic, what you are saying is if Muhammad is at war with a particular ethnic people, he has license to kill anyone of that ethnic group especially if they speak out against him.

please stop using senseless fairytale logic,

if one is at war it is quite normal to kill those of the enemy who you think is the biggest threat. and to kill them 1st and quick is quite the normal thing, the survival of the fittest rule.

Do note the woman complained that Muhammad was bad because Muhammad slaughtered her tribesmen and husband, do you somehow believe this is unfair of her?

he killed the traitors, the most practical thing to do as i mentioned in an earlier post and this woman was rivalling up some more of the enemy , so yes its a good thing to take her out before she ammasses a huge enemy. all nations do the same all the time. its a thing called war.

I truly feel sorry for you Hokowa, rarely have i met a religious person so bent of making their text positive that they will completely interpret a verse so outside its context.

pity pity pity, i wonder who is the one who is in the dark. and keep your pity for those who you realy pity. thanks

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

daraba , do you know arabic? and seems this i your trump card, do you have anything else in store. this verse has been beaten to all needs and purposes, yeah. and can be used for sexual foreplay, why not i mean the verse is for couples in a marriage crises. why not use some sexual games to ease the tension.

If you are right, and the beating is for 'sexual foreplay' then i suppose the earlier justification for it, for rebellious behaviour, was roleplaying a rebellious wife during sex? oh and admonishing them and banishing them from the bed is also part of the sexual foreplay? maybe they were in heat and you want to tease them?

yeah i see you are getting the drift now.

ROFL.[/QUOTE]

[Djugashvillain]

Keep the discussion civil, everyone. No more insults, no more snark.

[Blui]

people at war assinate those of the enemy they feel is a big threat. matey thats the reality of war.

Is it justified to assassinate anyone one feels is an enemy? even a child?


please stop using senseless fairytale logic,

if one is at war it is quite normal to kill those of the enemy who you think is the biggest threat. and to kill them 1st and quick is quite the normal thing, the survival of the fittest rule.

Sorry, i don't agree with the logic that i can kill anyone i perceive as a threat.
To agree with that is to agree that the Iraq war is justified.


he killed the traitors, the most practical thing to do as i mentioned in an earlier post and this woman was rivalling up some more of the enemy , so yes its a good thing to take her out before she ammasses a huge enemy. all nations do the same all the time. its a thing called war.

Evidence that she was a traitor (she wasn't since she belonged to a non-Islamic tribe).

Btw, no not all nations do it, especially Western ones, There is great criticism of Prime Minister John Howard of Australia, but i would hardly expect him to kill his critics.


daraba , do you know arabic? and seems this i your trump card, do you have anything else in store. this verse has been beaten to all needs and purposes, yeah. and can be used for sexual foreplay, why not i mean the verse is for couples in a marriage crises. why not use some sexual games to ease the tension.

I hope you realise it is a great sin in Islam to try and reinterpret the Qur'an, it is a form of bid'ah.


The apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered Mecca only to fight those who resisted them except a small number who were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the Ka`ba. Among them was `Abdullah b. Sa`d, brother of the B. `Amir b. Lu'ayy. The reason he ordered him to be killed was that he had been a Muslim and used to write down revelation; then he apostatized and returned to Qurahysh [Mecca] and fled to `Uthman b. `Affan whose foster brother he was. [`Uthman was one of Muhammad's closest friends, and later became the Caliph of Islam]. The latter hid him until he brought him to the apostle after the situation in Mecca was tranquil, and asked that he might be granted immunity. They allege that the apostle remained silent for a long time till finally he said yes, [granting `Abdullah immunity from the execution order]. When `Uthman had left he [Muhammad] said to his companions who were sitting around him, "I kept silent so that one of you might get up and strike off his head!" One of the Ansar [Muhammad's helpers from Medina] said, then why didn't you give me a sign, O apostle of God?" He [Muhammad] answered that a prophet does not kill by pointing.
-Sirat Rasullelah

This is another crime of Muhammad, the general killing of apostates.

[hokowo]

With this in mind and in direct response to your post:

Would you broker away your 6 year old daughter to a man in his 50's?

Would it please you to know he consumated the marriage right after her first menses?

How do you feel about men immitating these behaviors in the world we live in today?

many people sell themselves to rich folk or folk in power all the time and if the person is known as a hero or even more then the selling is even higher and age plays no role.

thing is aisha always liked muhammad and she was happy with him in the marriage life and she was mature enough for sex and for marriage in that age, a lesson for all, get married when you mature and enough for sex and marriage in the age you live in. and marry someone you like that you will be happy with, like aisha was happy with muhammad.

or do you folk here think she 1st need to have a drivers licence back in 620 something before she could get married. or perhaps she needed a degree in arts. or perhaps needed 10 years working experience before she got married. yeeah no i am getting the picture.

if my daughter were to marry a person who was renowned in the society and was known and hornoured by that society for his fairness and honesty and many other things, i would be really happy for my daughter if she also wanted to marry this person as soon as she was physically ready for sex and to have kids as soon as she wanted.

[hokowo]

=Blui;4452325]Is it justified to assassinate anyone one feels is an enemy? even a child?

now you are groping. mate

Sorry, i don't agree with the logic that i can kill anyone i perceive as a threat.
To agree with that is to agree that the Iraq war is justified.

we are talking when the war is going on already, we are not talking about reasons to start a war.

Evidence that she was a traitor (she wasn't since she belonged to a non-Islamic tribe).

the jews who were killed were traitors and her husband were one of them.

Btw, no not all nations do it, especially Western ones, There is great criticism of Prime Minister John Howard of Australia, but i would hardly expect him to kill his critics.

stop confusing yourself. there is what we call politics and political issues and then there is a war with battles. seperate the two for your own clarity of understanding


I hope you realise it is a great sin in Islam to try and reinterpret the Qur'an, it is a form of bid'ah.

like i said earlier show keep your concern for those you really care about


The apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered Mecca only to fight those who resisted them except a small number who were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the Ka`ba. Among them was `Abdullah b. Sa`d, brother of the B. `Amir b. Lu'ayy. The reason he ordered him to be killed was that he had been a Muslim and used to write down revelation; then he apostatized and returned to Qurahysh [Mecca] and fled to `Uthman b. `Affan whose foster brother he was. [`Uthman was one of Muhammad's closest friends, and later became the Caliph of Islam]. The latter hid him until he brought him to the apostle after the situation in Mecca was tranquil, and asked that he might be granted immunity. They allege that the apostle remained silent for a long time till finally he said yes, [granting `Abdullah immunity from the execution order]. When `Uthman had left he [Muhammad] said to his companions who were sitting around him, "I kept silent so that one of you might get up and strike off his head!" One of the Ansar [Muhammad's helpers from Medina] said, then why didn't you give me a sign, O apostle of God?" He [Muhammad] answered that a prophet does not kill by pointing.
-Sirat Rasullelah

This is another crime of Muhammad, the general killing of apostates.

war time matey i thought you knew they were still at war with the quaraish who have oppresed and expelled and killed them for many years.

should i really again repost the verse that one can kill those who cause trouble in the land.

yes they entered mecca and defeated them in mecca, buit there were those who werse still inciting huge enemies in the land, and in unstable times like that i think its perfectly practical to kill those who can disrupt the sublte peace.

very practical very smart, and it work amazingly well. for that society and for any society who would chose to follow that guidelines

anycase in this situation this person was saved anyway, even him being an apostate and causing trouble. showing the mercy of the prophet, when he had all the power.

[Blui]

now you are groping. mate

evasion, please answer the question.


we are talking when the war is going on already, we are not talking about reasons to start a war.

So Japan was justified in bombing America? the war was 'going on'.


the jews who were killed were traitors and her husband were one of them.

Evidence please.


stop confusing yourself. there is what we call politics and political issues and then there is a war with battles. seperate the two for your own clarity of understanding

Why? what if John Howard thought his critics were trying to start a war?


war time matey i thought you knew they were still at war with the quaraish who have oppresed and expelled and killed them for many years.

Evidence please.

Do note he fled to Mecca and then to his brother, there is zero evidence he was trying to side with any enemy.


should i really again repost the verse that one can kill those who cause trouble in the land.

You can if you want, but it wont help you, i don't think its justified to kill anyone because you perceive them as 'corrupting the land' ie. convincing your people to another religion.


yes they entered mecca and defeated them in mecca, buit there were those who werse still inciting huge enemies in the land, and in unstable times like that i think its perfectly practical to kill those who can disrupt the sublte peace.

evidence please.

Especially that the person, fleeing Muhammad and to his brother, was trying to incite anyone to kill or disrupt Muhammad.


very practical very smart, and it work amazingly well. for that society and for any society who would chose to follow that guidelines
Interestingly Islamic countries that follow pure Islamic law don't do so well today.

[hokowo]

evasion, please answer the question.


So Japan was justified in bombing America? the war was 'going on'.


Evidence please.


Why? what if John Howard thought his critics were trying to start a war?


Evidence please.

Do note he fled to Mecca and then to his brother, there is zero evidence he was trying to side with any enemy.


You can if you want, but it wont help you, i don't think its justified to kill anyone because you perceive them as 'corrupting the land' ie. convincing your people to another religion.


evidence please.

Especially that the person, fleeing Muhammad and to his brother, was trying to incite anyone to kill or disrupt Muhammad.


Interestingly Islamic countries that follow pure Islamic law don't do so well today.


nah i am copping out now, my choice since i see no point in going with this line as it is going.

unless you can come up with something new. of your own. i patiently await.

[Blui]

nah i am copping out now, my choice since i see no point in going with this line as it is going.

unless you can come up with something new. of your own. i patiently await.
I note you could not provide evidence of these things:

1. Aisha was sexually mature

2. Those people i showed Muhammad killing, were either traitors or were trying to incite people against him.

Thanks for debating.

[hokowo]

I note you could not provide evidence of these things:

1. Aisha was sexually mature

2. Those people i showed Muhammad killing, were either traitors or were trying to incite people against him.

Thanks for debating.

is this what you call debating?

is this the new issue?

seems very much like the other issue,

anyway if you read this thread you would have seen both evidences you ask for.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=4449381&postcount=27
and

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=4448916&postcount=16

so show me evidence that aishe was not sexaully mature.

come one seems you already singing another tune now kinda saign if she is msexually mature then its ok. loosing you old stance or what?

anyway do you really only have these angles. please. please please come up with something new. been asking you for months already. so i await patiently

[Blui]

is this what you call debating?

is this the new issue?

seems very much like the other issue,

anyway if you read this thread you would have seen both evidences you ask for.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=4449381&postcount=27
and

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=4448916&postcount=16

so show me evidence that aishe was not sexaully mature.

come one seems you already singing another tune now kinda saign if she is msexually mature then its ok. loosing you old stance or what?

anyway do you really only have these angles. please. please please come up with something new. been asking you for months already. so i await patiently

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3311

Narrated 'Aisha:

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/073.sbt.html#008.073.151

[hokowo]

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3311

Narrated 'Aisha:

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/073.sbt.html#008.073.151

and its seems you have nothing new to add.

what part of this dont you understand????

Quote:
Al-Dawoodi said: ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) was reached physical maturity (at the time when her marriage was consummated).


i still play with dolls and i think i am long gone sexually matured, and i like to take my dolls all over with me.

it does not mean that she played with them when she took them with meaning she is a kid. and only kids are allowed to play with dolls. perhaps she wanted to give it to her kids later. who knows.

is this all you have.

common please please please please please please
someting new . if you were my partner i would accuse you of nagging about the same old thing over and over and over again.

[Blui]

and its seems you have nothing new to add.

what part of this dont you understand????



i still play with dolls and i think i am long gone sexually matured, and i like to take my dolls all over with me.

it does not mean that she played with them when she took them with meaning she is a kid. and only kids are allowed to play with dolls. perhaps she wanted to give it to her kids later. who knows.

is this all you have.

common please please please please please please
someting new . if you were my partner i would accuse you of nagging about the same old thing over and over and over again.
Evasion, the Hadiths explicitly state the playing of dolls is allowed only for prepubescent girls, and Aisha both remarked she played with them around Muhammad and still carried them with her when she was 9 years old, when Muhammad had sex with her.

Btw, Al-Dawoodi was alive a full 1000+ years to when Muhammad was.

[hokowo]

Evasion, the Hadiths explicitly state the playing of dolls is allowed only for prepubescent girls, and Aisha both remarked she played with them around Muhammad and still carried them with her when she was 9 years old, when Muhammad had sex with her.

Btw, Al-Dawoodi was alive a full 1000+ years to when Muhammad was.

so its clear you have nothing new or of your own to add.

thanks for debatting

[Blui]

so its clear you have nothing new or of your own to add.

thanks for debatting
Np, you have yet to present evidence of Those people i showed Muhammad killing, were either traitors or were trying to incite people against him.

[hokowo]

Np, you have yet to present evidence of Those people i showed Muhammad killing, were either traitors or were trying to incite people against him.

then you confirm you have nothing new to add.

thanks for replicating

[Blui]

then you confirm you have nothing new to add.

thanks for replicating
Oh there is many things i could add.

For example, your argument that 'beat' in the Quran could mean something else, like sexual foreplay, if this is so, Muhammad did something wrong here.

he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127

[hokowo]

Oh there is many things i could add.

For example, your argument that 'beat' in the Quran could mean something else, like sexual foreplay, if this is so, Muhammad did something wrong here.

he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127

is the magic one.
nah also replicated old stuff.

aisha was jelous and he her struck to remove the jealousy. the pain she felt was the removal of the jealousy and nothing to do with him touching her. now all you have to do bring up is the one where abubakr slapped her. then it will b eperfect replication.

so its true your favourite one is beat it.

any thing else you wish to replicate??

[JamesBannon]

is the magic one.
nah also replicated old stuff.

aisha was jelous and he her struck to remove the jealousy. the pain she felt was the removal of the jealousy and nothing to do with him touching her. now all you have to do bring up is the one where abubakr slapped her. then it will b eperfect replication.

so its true your favourite one is beat it.

any thing else you wish to replicate??

This is singly the most stupid piece of reasoning I have ever seen on these boards. If I hit you with a brick and it was painful then I could argue that it was nothing to do with me hitting you with a brick? Would you or anyone else believe that do you think? Try using your brain to think with for a change.

[hokowo]

This is singly the most stupid piece of reasoning I have ever seen on these boards. If I hit you with a brick and it was painful then I could argue that it was nothing to do with me hitting you with a brick? Would you or anyone else believe that do you think? Try using your brain to think with for a change.

oh thanks for reminding me , next time i wont use my clit to think.then again how can u be sure i even have a brain?

perhaps you could use your brain, and tell me if muhammad was such a paedophile or wife beater why is it this web site folk can only come up with these examples. certainly looking forward to seeing your wonderful thinking brian in action.

[windsofchange]

Thread closed as it consists primarily of insults.