How does one debate religion with a Christian who is not good at debating?

[Vagabonder]

Greetings,

Before I continue, I just want to mention that my time is very limited for participating at the moment, and just wanted to toss this out there and see what people have to say.

Yesterday while out with a few friends, one of which was a born again Christian and the other a liberal Christian, we got on the topic of religion. I tried to debate them, and brought up the usual points of how god's omniscience conflicts with free will, that theistic morality boils down to "might is right." Since God is all powerful, whatever he says is good, is good. (or more accurately, whatever the bible says is good, is good), etc.

Because they don't have much experience debating, they were throwing out irrelevant points or not comprehending the arguments, and went away thinking they won the "debate."

I guess what I really want to know is what are some clear cut good arguments against biblical morality and for relative morals, as well as the most damaging arguments, or ways to present arguments to Christians who are not experienced debaters. What's the best things to say to really get them to think, and go beyond just their automatic response of "I know god exists in my heart"?

Also, if anyone has a few of the most heinous verses in the bible that could be used as a quick reference for unlearned Christians of why the bible isn't the best place to get morality, and bible god is pretty twisted, that would be helpful.

Thanks for your time, I appreciate it!

Regards,

Brian

[OldYgg]

What is your goal in these 'debates'?

Do you want to win? Is that a good goal to have in mind?

You say these people are your friends, is winning or attempting to win worth losing them as friends?

Conversations wander, and religion is definitely a place where they go. But they also have sayings that 'friends never discuss politics or religion.'

You can study a lot of arguments and things like that, but even if you reasoning is clear it is most likely that you will still lose.

But if you want, here is a clear argument (I hope).

You are a parent. You have many children. You love them all and nurture them to be good people. Then something goes wrong. They all except one start behaving poorly. So, you take out your shotgun and you blow all their heads off, but the last one you still like, because he's going to make it to college, so you let him live.

Are you a moral person?

How are you any different than god in the time of Noah? Isn't drowning a worse way to die then having your head blown off by a shotgun? Should you be in jail? Shouldn't god (if he existed) be in jail?

Anyway, my attempt at a clear argument - clear as mud, I suppose.

I will tell you this, it is very hard to argue against both a born again and a liberal. The above, I would think is devastating for someone that thinks god is a moral creature and their belief hinges on god being moral.

But, to a liberal (depending on their tilt) the above isn't very effective at all. After all, the OT are just stories meant to teach, not literal things that happened. :)

Good luck, and try to keep your friends if they are worth having.

Old Ygg

[GakuseiDon]

Also, if anyone has a few of the most heinous verses in the bible that could be used as a quick reference for unlearned Christians of why the bible isn't the best place to get morality, and bible god is pretty twisted, that would be helpful.
I don't recommend them for their analysis, but they do have a good list of such verses that you may find useful:
Skeptics Annotated Bible:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

[naturalist.atheist]

I guess what I really want to know is what are some clear cut good arguments against biblical morality and for relative morals, as well as the most damaging arguments, or ways to present arguments to Christians who are not experienced debaters. What's the best things to say to really get them to think, and go beyond just their automatic response of "I know god exists in my heart"?

It is tricky. That is because people don't actually believe in the bible. They believe in a meta-narrative of the bible. The story about the story. Christianity has a long and rich history of meta-narrative and if you are going to start arguing against Christians using their own beliefs then you will have to study more than the bible. But even then it sometimes appears that there must be as many versions of that meta-narrative as there are Christians.

So I try to argue from what is common to everyone. Then discover their particular meta narrative and then point out that under any other circumstances they would not find what is purported in that meta-narrative to be credible. And then question what makes that particular version credible. Then it comes down to "faith". And then it is easy to show that even they do not have "faith" in "faith".

And it usually then boils down to they believe it just because they do (but it is obvious that it is for purely selfish emotional reasons) and leave it at that.

I am not out to turn Christians into atheist, just to get them to behave themselves. But then again I would like everyone to behave themselves.

[Plognark]

In my experiences there is almost nothing you can do to convince someone who believes "just because".

They've got to figure things out on their own first.

It's probably not nice of me, but I usually just give up trying to get any sense across to them and start laying on the sarcasm and goof on them. At the very least the embarassment and frustration of it will get them to think about things a little more than they would otherwise.

[naturalist.atheist]

It's probably not nice of me, but I usually just give up trying to get any sense across to them and start laying on the sarcasm and goof on them. At the very least the embarassment and frustration of it will get them to think about things a little more than they would otherwise.

I must admit to doing it myself. But I have never seen it work, but it does have the added benefit that they shutup about it from then on.

[general_koffi]

There's no "winning" or "losing" a debate when there's no judge.

Start any debate with a theist with "Why should I believe what you do?"

Remember that the burden of proof is on them. Then shoot down whatever they say. If they aren't good at debating, then they won't even bring up theistic arguments which require complex rebuttal.

It's highly unlikely that anyone is going to walk away from such a casual conversation "converted" or 'deconverted". Quite frankly, they would have deconverted on their own if it was that easy.

[OldYgg]

You know if they just 'believe' there isn't much to talk about. In order to even start the conversation the opponents have to have reasons why they believe. If they have no reasonable premise for why they believe other than 'I just believe' I think that's a conversation stopper right there.

You might be better off finding a good apologetics book and giving it them both and setting them to duke it out so they at least have reasons and arguments why they believe.

Old Ygg