Atheism forum on ABC News website...

[Malachi151]

It is interesting that they have a whole forum dedicated to discussing atheists, but as you can see, it was setup like to "talk about atheists"...

Atheists are on the offensive. No longer content to keep their disbelief to themselves, they are fighting all the way to the Supreme Court to get religion out of government, and they are writing best-selling books. In an interview with ABC News, Sam Harris, author of "Letter to a Christian Nation," said, "Religion poses one of the more troubling threats to civilization. The world is ablaze with bad ideas and most of these ideas are religious." Needless to say, this kind of talk is lighting a fire under people of faith. Are atheists fanning the flames a little too hard -- or exercising their right to speak their minds?

http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?folderId=6&listMode=13&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews

See my first post here:

http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews&tid=27797

I post there are rationalrev (for my website, rationalrevolution.net)

[Stacey Melissa]

I see you've posted quite a few times there already. Thanks for providing a small voice of reason among the jabbering morass of ignorant comments.

[ElectEngr]

I can see a lot of fodder for FStDT at that forum.

hehehe.

Later,
ElectEngr

[GenesisNemesis]

I get a log in error. (I recently registered).

[Mageth]

I can see a lot of fodder for FStDT at that forum.

hehehe.

Later,
ElectEngr

I found one, and was on my way to post it here when I saw your post:

From: sifted_one:
Good..... how did existence come into being?

How do you argue against someone who is so clueless?

[Underseer]

That forum is fair teeming with ignorance. It would take a braver man than I to wade into those murky waters.

[freemonkey]

I went to register, but they want an awful lot of personal information about me.....

[Styrofoamdeity]

I registered and I posted under the same handle as here. I am finding it hard to be kind. I write, then erase, write, then erase again. Four or five revisions until my post doesn't read like a sarcastic laugh-track to the moronic OPs.

Ah well, I suffer for the cause.

[Writer@Large]

I have an old ABC account, so I dusted it off for a few posts. Good times!

[Alter]

Malachi: great find, and great post!!!

[Stacey Melissa]

Login error for me, too. I already had an ABC.com account, and it works on the main news site as well, but the message board throws up a generic login error.

[BMD]

I have an old ABC account, so I dusted it off for a few posts. Good times!

Y'all talked me into it. I have an old account I set up years ago on ESPN to do the annual NCAA tournament challenge with some old friends. I drug it out and low and behold it let me in. I sure hope I didn't give them all the information they want for a new account now back then. Maybe I need to check my profile.

I've never waded into this kind of discussion before, I hope I don't embarrass myself too badly.

[freemonkey]

Just for the record, I think all you guys are doing a fine job over there. It may feel like you're banging your heads against the brick walls, but I'm sure there are some who will hear you. :)

[Writer@Large]

I have an old account I set up years ago on ESPN to do the annual NCAA tournament challenge with some old friends.
Oddly, that's the exact reason I have an old account. I was surprised when I tried to register at ABC and they told me I already had an account! I didn't even think that the two channels would share an account system.

--W@L

[Malachi151]

This looks like a potentially fruitful conversation:

http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=18&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews&tid=27863

[Malachi151]

The admin on that forum keeps deleting my posts, even though there is nothing
wrong with this, not hostile, etc.

I've made the following post about 5 times, it gets deleted every time "Do you own thing" thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPO_b-pWmX4

With all the talk around here of "why can't we all just get along", here is just one of many examples of why that is, because Christians won't do so.

The New Testament says not to accept non-believers. You are supposed to love sinners, as long as they believe in God, but good people who don't believe are "evil people" that you should shun...

And here is more information:

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/smalko1.htm

False charges were fabricated by the Christians against her father, and he had to go to court to defend himself, which he won.

[Malachi151]

This looks like a potentially fruitful conversation:

http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=18&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews&tid=27863

The post I was trying to link to here was also deleted. It was:

This is one of the oldest arguments for religion, and has been used by people of every culture to argue in favor of every kind of belief. The idea boils down to saying that the only way people can be good is if we lie to everyone.

"A time there was when disorder ruled
Human lives, which were then, like lives of beasts,
Enslaved to force; nor was there then reward
For the good, nor for the wicked punishment.
Next, it seems to me, humans established laws
For punishment, that justice might rule
Over the tribe of mortals, and wanton injury be subdued;
And whosoever did wrong was penalized.
Next, as the laws held [mortals] back from deeds
Of open violence. but still such deeds
Were done in secret,--then, I think,
Some shrewd man first, a man in judgment wise,
Found for mortals the fear of gods,
Thereby to frighten the wicked should they
Even act or speak or scheme in secret.
Hence it was that he introduced the divine
Telling how the divinity enjoys endless life,
Hears and sees, and takes thought
And attends to things, and his nature is divine,
So that everything which mortals say is heard
And everything done is visible.
Even if you plan in silence some evil deed
It will not be hidden from the gods: for discernment
Lies in them. So, speaking words like these,
The sweetest teaching did he introduce,
Concealing truth under untrue speech.
The place he spoke of as the gods' abode
Was that by which he might awe humans most,--
The place from which, he knew, terrors came to mortals
And things advantageous in their wearisome life--
The revolving heaven above, in which dwell
The lightnings, and awesome claps
Of thunder, and the starry face of heaven,
Beautiful and intricate by that wise craftsman Time,--
From which, too, the meteor's glowing mass speeds
And wet thunderstorm pours forth upon the earth.
Such were the fears with which he surrounded mortals,
And to the divinity he gave a fitting home,
By this his speech, and in a fitting place,
And [thus] extinguished lawlessness by laws.
...
Thus, I think, for the first time did
someone persuade mortals to believe in a race of deities."
- Critas, 5th century BCE, Greek statesman (and tyrant who was an atheist that believed in the power of religion to rule the people)

The idea that the highest in morality can proceed from a lie is totally absurd. For secular humanists, like myself, truth is paramount, and solutions for living have to be developed that are based on facts, which put people in contact with reality and truth. Sure it may seem easier to lie to people and convince them to horrible terrors that will happen to them after they die if they do bad things, but #1 this doesn't really work, #2 its a lie, and #3 these lies feed on themselves and lead to deepening delusion and out of control destructive social behavior such as we witness with religion on a regular basis. The idea that you can "control" religious belief is absurd and proven to be false by history.

And actually, as in the case of Critas, with such religious claims you put potentially malevolent atheists in charge of society. Take, for example, that Karl Rove (Bush's brain) is probably an atheist. This sets up a situation where the people who know that it really isn't true simply take advantage of that facts.

There are two basic types of atheists in the world, those who oppose religion and want to see it go away for the sake of mankind (like myself) and those who embrace religion and want to use it as a tool to exploit and control others, such as Karl Rove and probably some of the big faith healers, etc., the frauds.

In truth, atheists like myself are in greatest conflict with the atheists like Karl Rove, the atheists who do more to support religion that anyone else. Look at all of the powerful people in the world, and all of the billions of dollars that some of these people have. We know that there are billionaire atheists out there who do nothing to support atheism. Why? They like religion. Just as was said by the aristocrats before the French Revolution, religion is for the masses, and for us, atheism. Hell I think that there have been atheist Popes during the Middle Ages, and its a fact that there have been at least high level atheist priests and bishops.

In Greece we know that many of the temple priests were atheists. They engineered temples to trick people into believing in supernatural forces. They commissioned advanced technology to build automated devices that would appear to operate at the commands of the priests and when people have offerings. It was just out and out exploitation, and the temples were in competition with each other economically. The temples with the biggest wonders drew more people, and thus raised more money. They whole thing was a business basically a of fooling people, which is why so many very elaborate temples were built in the late period.

Sorry, but as an atheist and secular humanism, I am too ethical to condone such exploitation, and the people I feel sorry for the most are the religious people who are believing in ancient lies that have been used from early times to manipulate and deceive the public.

If religion is such a great tool for making society better and preventing crime, then why do they still have to stone people and cut off their hands and even heads in the Middle East? Doesn't fear of Allah alone keep everything in check? Is the Middle East a place free from crime, with a happy healthy society? Hardly, far from it. Look at any theocratic country on earth, now or at any time in the past. They are all dysfunctional hell holes.

Look at how long the pious Puritan colonies lasted in America, not very long. Why? They became completely impossible to live in, people were running away from them, fleeing in terror. They were killing people for simply speaking out. They killed Quakers over minor doctrinal issues. They killed people for being suspected of being witches. They restricted life so much that no one could function and suspicion was rife and people were depressed.

This is the twisted road that religion always ultimately leads down. It's a fine line that people try to walk between control and insanity.

The Secular Humanist position is, start with reality and then work on how to develop an ethical society from there, don't start with an ideal and then invent stories to try and manipulate people into following your ideal. History hass shown that this doesn't work anyway.

I have now reposted it.

[McDiggy]

The night of the verdict, tornados of unusual violence descended on the panhandle of Oklahoma. The home of the Principal who had brought the false charges against Chuck Smalkowski was severely damaged.

Ha!

[Alter]

This looks like a potentially fruitful conversation:

http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=18&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews&tid=27863

The argument is a bit specious, because it presumes the mindset of the disadvantaged. The fact is, they are MORE likely to believe in religion, not less. So why do they commit crimes?

Well, there has been some recent studies that show that there is a correlation between crime rates and certain types of religion. "Certain types" means those with a strong heaven-hell-type pronouncement. "Liberal" religion has much less of a correlation.

So why would this make a drug dealer in the hood not care about the consequences of his actions?? Simple: he already thinks he's going to hell, so it can't get any worse.

[Malachi151]

The argument is a bit specious, because it presumes the mindset of the disadvantaged. The fact is, they are MORE likely to believe in religion, not less. So why do they commit crimes?

Well, there has been some recent studies that show that there is a correlation between crime rates and certain types of religion. "Certain types" means those with a strong heaven-hell-type pronouncement. "Liberal" religion has much less of a correlation.

So why would this make a drug dealer in the hood not care about the consequences of his actions?? Simple: he already thinks he's going to hell, so it can't get any worse.

Good point.

[post tenebras lux]

The admin on that forum keeps deleting my posts, even though there is nothing
wrong with this, not hostile, etc.

I've made the following post about 5 times, it gets deleted every time "Do you own thing" thread:The post I was trying to link to here was also deleted. It was:
I have now reposted it.Maybe I'm misreading it, but doesn't their software leave a gap in the numbering whenever they delete/suppress a post?

In this thread (http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews&tid=27863), it seems to me that posts 1, 4, 6, 9, 12, 13, 17, 19 and 23 have been cut from a total of just twenty three posts! :huh:

PS Which I guess is why, from the main page it claims that there are only fourteen posts in that thread.

[Steve Schlicht]

So much to easily refute...yet, "Login Error".

Guess I'll just have to lurk for a change.

:cool:

Steve

[Stacey Melissa]

Maybe I'm misreading it, but doesn't their software leave a gap in the numbering whenever they delete/suppress a post?

In this thread (http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews&tid=27863), it seems to me that posts 1, 4, 6, 9, 12, 13, 17, 19 and 23 have been cut from a total of just twenty three posts! :huh:

PS Which I guess is why, from the main page it claims that there are only fourteen posts in that thread.
Malachi151/RationalRev had quite a few post in that thread when I viewed it yesterday, and none seemed to be rules violations (I actually read their legalese terms of service before logging in), yet every single one of his posts is gone today. I haven't checked other threads yet, but I suspect something similar will await me when I do. :(

[Malachi151]

Maybe I'm misreading it, but doesn't their software leave a gap in the numbering whenever they delete/suppress a post?

In this thread (http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews&tid=27863), it seems to me that posts 1, 4, 6, 9, 12, 13, 17, 19 and 23 have been cut from a total of just twenty three posts! :huh:

PS Which I guess is why, from the main page it claims that there are only fourteen posts in that thread.

Yes. Some of the threads have been totally gutted. As you point out many of them have over half the posts cut out of them. I think we need to bring this up to Daily KOS and some others like that.

Please write to Daily KOS, and I will too.

http://www.dailykos.com/

I'll also bring it up with CFI.

[Stacey Melissa]

Mod hat: This is just a little preemptive guidance, but I want to make sure this thread doesn't turn into an "I wuz banned from the ABC News forum!!!11one" internet drama fest (as EverLastingGodStopper would put it). If that happens we'll have to move or split stuff to ~E~.

Right now, with the focus on getting our ideas to a new audience, and also getting fair treatment from ABC News, this thread seems fine in PA&SA. Let's keep it that way.

Stacey Melissa
PA&SA Moderator

[Malachi151]

The message I have sent to a few people:

Recently, ABC News aired a debate between the "Rational Responders" and Kirk Cameron, etc., which you probably know about.

They now have a section on their web forum that is dedicated to talking about "atheists". I have been active on there discussing issues with people, and over a period of several days they have systematically deleted most or all of my posts and the posts of other atheists. I have had to repost them repeatedly, and they continue to be deleted, such that atheists are denied the ability to express their point of view on the forum, even though we are not violating any rules and we are not being banned.

You can clearly see the evidence of this my looking at the threads:

http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?folderId=6&listMode=13&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews&redirCnt=1

Here is a specific example:

http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews&tid=27794

Look at the post counts. You see that it goes 1 or 11, 2 of 11, 4 of 11, 8 of 11, etc. This is because the other posts have all been deleted. I have made several posts in that thread which have all been deleted, and the replies to my posts have been deleted, and the posts of other atheists have been deleted.

None of these posts were hostile, violated any rules, or were even negative at all. I have saved some of my posts that have been deleted, but not this particular example unfortunately, but there are dozens of examples. This is a case of a major media company taking sides and actively manipulating the presentation of ideas to skew the discussion and misrepresent atheists and deny atheists the ability to represent themselves in a public forum.

[Mathew Goldstein]

I have an old ABC account, so I dusted it off for a few posts. Good times!

I assume that only Malachi151's posts are deleted because no one else has complained. Is that correct?

[benjdm]

I assume that only Malachi151's posts are deleted because no one else has complained. Is that correct?
I had a post deleted, but I thought it was because of having too many external links. It was linking to the pre-broadcast reviews of the debates.

[Underseer]

The message I have sent to a few people:

Recently, ABC News aired a debate between the "Rational Responders" and Kirk Cameron, etc., which you probably know about.

They now have a section on their web forum that is dedicated to talking about "atheists". I have been active on there discussing issues with people, and over a period of several days they have systematically deleted most or all of my posts and the posts of other atheists. I have had to repost them repeatedly, and they continue to be deleted, such that atheists are denied the ability to express their point of view on the forum, even though we are not violating any rules and we are not being banned.

You can clearly see the evidence of this my looking at the threads:

http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?folderId=6&listMode=13&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews&redirCnt=1

Here is a specific example:

http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ABCWorldNews&tid=27794

Look at the post counts. You see that it goes 1 or 11, 2 of 11, 4 of 11, 8 of 11, etc. This is because the other posts have all been deleted. I have made several posts in that thread which have all been deleted, and the replies to my posts have been deleted, and the posts of other atheists have been deleted.

None of these posts were hostile, violated any rules, or were even negative at all. I have saved some of my posts that have been deleted, but not this particular example unfortunately, but there are dozens of examples. This is a case of a major media company taking sides and actively manipulating the presentation of ideas to skew the discussion and misrepresent atheists and deny atheists the ability to represent themselves in a public forum.

Well, you are expressing an unapproved opinion espousing an unapproved religious viewpoint. What do you expect?

What do you expect from the same company responsible for Path to 9/11? If the moderation on the ABC forums seems indistinguishable from Rapture Ready or Free Republic, there is a very good reason for that.

[DreamBotCaptain]

Its nice that it looks like there's a near 50% distribution between theists and atheists, but such heavy moderation is retarded and defeats the purpose of the board. In one case, the opening piece was deleted while the responses remained - LOL - and the thread made no sense. With my quick scanning, it seemed only atheists' posts were deleted (based upon how people responded to a post, I guessed whether it was pro/anti-atheist). That may have just been because they used external links to provide evidence or I may have just clicked on the wrong threads.

[blastula]

Well, there has been some recent studies that show that there is a correlation between crime rates and certain types of religion. "Certain types" means those with a strong heaven-hell-type pronouncement. "Liberal" religion has much less of a correlation.

Do you have a cite?