God?

[Clivedurdle]

Why do we accept the assumption that the choice is between one and none? Look at thread titles - why this capital letter singular God? I am going to start writing Electron or Atom or Parasitic Wasp!

Why shouldn't the universe be the result of arguments between many gods?

Surely any argument "if God this" should first explain why we are dealing with a singular specimen?

[OldYgg]

That is the funny thing about the 'clockwork' universe god. You know, blah blah blah, universe looks like it was designed like a watch, therefore the universe was designed.

But the analogy actually would lean toward polytheism, not monotheism. After all, the watch is the culmination of many people's work. People providing food to the clockmaker, pencils for design, tools for modifying metals, metals from the ground, etc. If god is the watchmaker, then clearly he had a lot of help. These other beings helping would be... gods.

Old Ygg

[Biff the unclean]

I thought that was elves?

[OldYgg]

Yeah, but who could tell who is the top guy - an elf or god? All I know is that god makes a lot of things, but those elves make some really good cookies. The entity that makes the cookies, wins.

[ziffel]

Even the Christian story, if looked at it objectively, contains gods, plural. There are 3 gods in the godhead, and Satan is arguably a god as he certainly has godlike powers. There's a hierarchy there, same as other god stories. Christians simply assert that 3 people are 1, and that Satan isn't a god. The facts of the biblical story show otherwise.

[Clivedurdle]

Are saints gods?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6645555.stm

Is the pope manufacturing new gods?

[OldYgg]

I never understood the whole bit with saints. They were people, ok? They were good people, ok, I'm with you there. They demonstrated their faith. Good.

So, after you die, we decide (not god) that you were good enough people and faithful enough and did some good stuff that you should become a saint?

What? How can you become a saint without god coming down and - I don't know - etching a block of staone - Old Ygg - is a saint?

Clearly saints exist (at least in the idea that people decide people should be saints) and it isn't entirely clear that these saints are, well, any more or less than regular people. But they do get prayed to - so why would that make them anything less than gods? I'm soooo confused!

Old Ygg

[Clivedurdle]

It is as if this concept of monotheism is a propaganda term - everyone has always believed in a myriad gods - including muslims with their djinn, and been very pragmatic about such things - that old nutter - yep we will make him a saint.

They are all polytheists! Some go out of their way to deny it - were Satan and angels and djinn created by god?

[cajela]

Saints seem rather like demigods to me. I suspect they are remnants of ancient Roman and Greek beliefs where mortals could become semi-divine, either after life or assumed to the heavens without dying first - to be a constellation or a cupbearer or the like. A lot of Roman emperors became "gods" at death, too. Apotheosis is the term.

(Or pumpkins. A cookie to the first to get that.)

[OldYgg]

You know - this is all very weird. One of the things that the Mormons get attacked for - is that they believe people alive now can become Jesus-Like - and perhaps even ascend to Heaven.

But, this doesn't sound any different than sainthood....

Old Ygg

[OldYgg]

Oh, I like the demi-god idea; however, mythologically speaking, I always thought that Jesus was on the level of Hercules. If that would be accepted, then Jesus is a demi-god. The saint dudes, would all be even lower on the ladder.

Old Ygg

[Clivedurdle]

Why Saints? A very good reason. It's hard to identify with an awe-inspiring Mono God.

Mankind has always wanted something nearer to his heart. Something or someone he can identify with and approach. As God's go-betweens, the Saints are reassuringly human, full of flaws and foibles.

There is a Saint for every location and occasion. You can have your own patron saint. Saints have Holy Wells and work miracles as they become — to the untrained eye — demi-deities in their own right. It's the Saints, Angels and Holy Artefacts that drew pagans to Christianity.

http://www.godchecker.com/saints/index.php

[Joan of Bark]

That is the funny thing about the 'clockwork' universe god. You know, blah blah blah, universe looks like it was designed like a watch, therefore the universe was designed.

But the analogy actually would lean toward polytheism, not monotheism. After all, the watch is the culmination of many people's work. People providing food to the clockmaker, pencils for design, tools for modifying metals, metals from the ground, etc. If god is the watchmaker, then clearly he had a lot of help. These other beings helping would be... gods.

Old Ygg

Thanks for that argument, OY. I can't wait to use it the next chance I get ... (er, it's not copywrited, is it?).

[Clivedurdle]

I think angels, satan etc are also uncreated - what is the theology about this? - so any hierarchical structure with god on top must have been negotiated or won by conquest.

Maybe we should ask the gods to leave us alone and go play somewhere else!

God really needs to get his act together and learn about democracy - time he retired, was voted out or overthrown in a coup! Like Mugabe he is been around too long!

The Social, Economic and Political Structure of Heaven)

[Clivedurdle]

Angels on pinheads? Adam Smith discussed manufacturing pins. Now to manufacture watches requires an even more complex economy!

http://www.anst.uu.se/larsoest/pmwiki.php?n=Research.NeedleIndustryExample

[OldYgg]

Thanks for that argument, OY. I can't wait to use it the next chance I get ... (er, it's not copywrited, is it?).

It isn't copywrited or anything like that. I've used it a few times and I read something similar to it in something by Michael Martin or other atheistic philosophical resources.

Old Ygg

(Oh, and it annoyed me to no end, the universe as a clock analogy - when it was used in an HBO series on religion. The used that as if it wasn't refutable - that was it, and then they interviewed some giggling teenage Chinese girls about if they believed in a god and asked them 'well what created everything and they giggled and said 'I don't know, I don't think anything did it.' A show that wasn't too bad about religion, but when it came to atheism they just loaded it on....)

BTW - there is an excellent book by Isaac Asimov on Beginnings/Origins. It starts by tracing the origin of flight using "First In Flight" license plates from NC. Pursues the origins of flight, humanity, Earth, Universe. It is good, but it needs some updating.

[OldYgg]

Angels on pinheads? Adam Smith discussed manufacturing pins. Now to manufacture watches requires an even more complex economy!

http://www.anst.uu.se/larsoest/pmwiki.php?n=Research.NeedleIndustryExample

And Milton Friedman talked about all the resources it took to create a Pencil. His discussion was talking about a global economy and basically stated that we can't do anything ourselves. Even the simplest needs come from other places.

Economics grad, college. IT by trade.

Old Ygg