Do you think the evidence East Asians score higher in Math due to genes is credible?

[gnosis92]

A significant number of IIDB'ers believe that there is scientifically credible evidence Jews have higher IQ's.

Do you think the evidence East Asians score higher in Math due to genes is credible?

i.e
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p102636_index.html
Why Do Asian American Students Do Better on Mathematics Tests?

The Bell Curve provides references of East Asian test scores, both in Asia and as immigrants in the US.

Obviously one fact is whether East Asians elementary students score higher in math tests, and if they do, whether it is cultural or genetic or both.

If you think it is genetic or both genetic and cultural.

[premjan]

Culture is capable of magnifying small genetic differences. For instance, why do Chinese use an ideographic rather than a phonetic language? Their classical music also seems tonally a bit poorer to me. Maybe they have compensated aural processing for visual processing? It could be a marginal genetic effect which has been accentuated by culture, identity etc. Evidently the Koreans have switched back to a phonetic language so it is not a big genetic effect. Maybe also the greater cultural conformity causes better learning culture among East Asian students. IIRC, this correlation was not found to hold for Vietnamese immigrants who happened to be poorer (also maybe their country was more ravaged by war). So it is at least partly a cultural effect.

[Fish]

From the link:
This result implies that Asian American students might have higher pressure from their parents on their education.

There you go.

As an east asian myself, I can also vouch that the stereotypical asian student who spends after school hours cramming and receiving extra external tuition lessons teaching far beyond the syllabus (just to get an edge over others) with the stereotypical asian parents who pressure him to get good grades and do better than his peers is hardly an exagerration.

[aegis]

What are the selection criteria for Asians who want to come to America? Are only the highly educated wealthy ones given visas?

[Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ]

What are the selection criteria for Asians who want to come to America? Are only the highly educated wealthy ones given visas?

I doubt that's it. What is more likely to be the case is that either the immigrants are people who are more highly educated/wealthy or that the immigrants are poorer and put an emphasis on education to their children to improve their chances for financial success.

[anders]

For instance, why do Chinese use an ideographic rather than a phonetic language?
Premjan-ji, all languages are phonetic, except sign languages.
Maybe they have compensated aural processing for visual processing?
Sorry, makes no sense to me.

But there's one factor about Chinese: It's a very economical language, leaving out many unnecessary details, supposing that the person spoken to is sufficiently intelligent to understand the rest from context. "Yesterday at rink girl skate" compared to "Yesterday, there was a girl skating at the rink". So, logical thinking is required from a child's first spoken/encountered words.

Anyway, I'm for cultural effects. Not only do many parents press their children to get into something lucrative, for social standing and to function as old age pension providers, but children are brought up to revere and obey their parents, and so the younger generation probably feels the pressure to live up to expectations in a more intense way than "westerners" do.

Maths is an interesting field to excel in. You can work there even if you are foreign to the local culture - it's all about logic.

[Super Squirrel]

Another theory that I've heard is that it has to do with the way Asian languages deal with numbers.

My understanding is that in English, 33 is referred to as 'thirty three', whereas in Asian languages, it is referred to as 'three tens three' or something to that effect. Since their method of numbering is very similar to the base 10 number system, it takes them less time to perform operations, as there are fewer mental operations required to make the numbers easier to use.

I imagine much of it is social as well, though.

[premjan]

If they use their visual cortex for numbers (e.g. due to their language) that could explain why they can do arithmetic faster.

[Loren Pechtel]

What are the selection criteria for Asians who want to come to America? Are only the highly educated wealthy ones given visas?

There are four ways to get an immigrant visa:

Investing sufficient money. There aren't that many such visas issued as the required amount is in the millions. It's not just a matter of catering to the wealthy, the investment requirements include the creation of jobs for Americans. Obviously this generally indicates something about the abilities of the people immigrating.

Marriage. This will tend to eliminate the lower end of the spectrum. Such marriages usually either happen because the person is already here (implying something about their abilities) or because the American is there--and when the American is there they are generally above the local standard of living and thus will choose superior partners. In this case, however, superior often involves physical characteristics rather than mental ones.

Family reunification. Citizens can apply for visas for immediate family members. Again, this says something about the people as they tend to be like the people that originally immigrated.

The diversity lottery. The lower end of the spectrum are again excluded as it costs something. There is less effect here, however.


Note that all of these methods mean that immigrants will average better than the population they came from and thus you would expect the immigrant population to be better on average.

Furthermore, the fact that someone chose to move to another country says something about them. Even with no laws affecting things those who move to another country tend to be above average.

[ninewands]

Math and computer science, not intending to be insulting to any East Asian Infidels, seem to be the perfect field for the non-Westernized East Asians I have been acquainted with. They are so thoroughly acculturated to the "work like good little ants," behavior they are saddled with by their stereotype and, frankly, I look on these two fields as being those where Edison's "perspiration" factor is a lot higher than 90%.

Now, once Asians begin westernizing significantly (most I've known are second or third generation ABC (American-Born Chinese)), they break out of that mold and become a lot more laid back and mentally flexible while seeming to retain the good parts of their "cultural work ethic."

[ninewands]

A significant number of IIDB'ers believe that there is scientifically credible evidence Jews have higher IQ's.
Actually, I only believe this about Jews of Ashkenazi heritage, and it is because the non-subsistence-level-farming professions in which they were permitted to engage tended to be those that selected for superior intelligence. Since being a successful provider is a significant factor of reproductive success in societies where arranged marriage was the norm, artificial selection brought about generally higher IQs, along with genetic diseases like Tay-Sachs and all the other disadvantages of being part off a small, self-isolated social group.

It has been my observation that those who descend from predominantly Sephardic roots come closer to the Western European norm, so no ... this is NOT a racially based evaluation.

[Scifinerdgrl]

I don't know what you consider a "significant number of IIDB'ers." A few fringe posters are hardly "significant." Most of the rest of us blow off their idiocy and don't waste our time posting in their silly threads.

On the topic - I've known some Asians who are incredible morons. Consider that they believe in accupuncture and astrology in large numbers.

There are so many factors involved in brain development, early childhood learning, and education that any correlation between test scores and race alone are completely bogus. Socioeconomic status, prenatal nutrition, preschool opportunities, parental involvement in homework assistance, teacher-student ratio at school, etc. all play a role.

[DanBZ]

From the link:

As an east asian myself, I can also vouch that the stereotypical asian student who spends after school hours cramming and receiving extra external tuition lessons teaching far beyond the syllabus (just to get an edge over others) with the stereotypical asian parents who pressure him to get good grades and do better than his peers is hardly an exagerration.

I am a successful student (just about to graduate high school) of Eastern European Jewish ancestry. And I would like to say that I attribute my success to the same factors that you attribute your success. Not only did I do well because of my intelligence, but I also did well because of intense pressure from my parents to succeed. I was motivated enough (some might say insane enough) to take on extra work (such as independent study courses) because I wanted to learn more and to make myself look good to colleges.

[Scifinerdgrl]

Actually, I only believe this about Jews of Ashkenazi heritage, and it is because the non-subsistence-level-farming professions in which they were permitted to engage tended to be those that selected for superior intelligence. Since being a successful provider is a significant factor of reproductive success in societies where arranged marriage was the norm, artificial selection brought about generally higher IQs, along with genetic diseases like Tay-Sachs and all the other disadvantages of being part off a small, self-isolated social group.

But also, a heritage of learning plays a factor. If your ancestors have valued learning for 600 years you are far mor likely to value it than someone whose ancestors didn't learn to read until after the U.S. Civil War, for instance. If Ashkenazi jews were forbidden to learn to read from 1500-1865 they'd probably have a different cultural heritage.

[James T]

On the topic - I've known some Asians who are incredible morons.Great example of a common fallacy in use on this topic.

[JamesBannon]

I don't think this poll is at all credible but for what it's worth it's almost certainly cultural. Might as well have polls about why women aren't as good at maths. This spate of polls reminds me of nineteenth century arguments for not giving women the vote among other completely nonsensical ideas. Bah! Sometimes I wonder why I even bother.:mad:

[James T]

Why is it necessary for so many people here to trot out what even they should recognise as obvious fallacies.

I commented on scifinerdgirl's earlier and very briefly. Because I know someone who is a fast runner who is white does not mean all whites are fast runners. This should be bloody obvious.

Now we have JamesBannon's idiotic claim that it's almost certainly cultural. On what basis might you make this claim. It's not even close to scientific to trot out dogma as knowledge.

In this one area, it seems there are a large number of atheists who are willing to support the very methods they claim gnostics may not use in their defence of a belief in god. Why the hypocrisy? Are you all *really* unable to see this contradiction in your own positions?

[JamesBannon]

*sigh* I'm off to bed but very briefly. We all, barring developmental problems, have an innate capacity for language, yes? Which language(s) we use depends almost exclusively on evironmental considerations (education, teaching methodologies & culture generally). Mathematics & Logic are nothing more than formal languages so it is reasonable to suppose that one's ability in these languages is subject to the same kinds of influences as ability in other natural languages.

Yes there are those who find mathematics easier than others but in precisely the same vein there are some who find natural languages easier than others. Further, this applies to any ability be it riding a bike, driving a car, playing the piano, playing baseball or whatever. Are we then to argue that all such abilities are genetically determined and that those abilities appear in clumps related to something we call "race"? I am extremely sceptical of such claims and I have every right to be because there is no clear scientific consensus on any of these questions.

[Vicious Love]

Now we have JamesBannon's idiotic claim that it's almost certainly cultural. On what basis might you make this claim.

Occam's razor and the absence of evidence to the contrary? Cultural differences can easily account for the differences between ethnic groups' math scores. Find me a remotely credible study establishing genetic differences as the culprit, and I just might revise my opinion. Every such study I've seen thus far has been highly suspect.

[Cosmo]

Please do yourselves a favour and innoculate yourselves against the nonsense peddled by Jensen, Rushton and Lynn et al....

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~maccoun/PP279_Flynn.pdf


Or at least mount some sensible arguments against Flynn's expose and analysis.

[Febble]

Please do yourselves a favour and innoculate yourselves against the nonsense peddled by Jensen, Rushton and Lynn et al....

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~maccoun/PP279_Flynn.pdf


Or at least mount some sensible arguments against Flynn's expose and analysis.

Thanks for posting that link to the paper. I hadn't managed to find an online pdf. It should be posted early in any thread about IQ, and all posters should read it before commenting further.

[premjan]

I think Flynn puts into perspective those "subhuman" IQs for e.g. African populations. They were not so subhuman barely 50 years ago in the USA. Most of intelligence has to do with generational changes in IQ. A gap of 15 points is nothing when considered with the passage of years. IQ has more to do with the "cultural sophistication" of a group or generation IMO.

[Answerer]

As a Asian and a Math/science pro cum fanboy living in the modern Asian society, I can tell you all that the notion of Asians being good in Math/Science is true academically at least until they reach high school standard. But after a few years in their working life (Which got nothing to do with science/Math), most can't even solve a simple factorization/trigo equation and they even need calculators to do their arithmetic sums at work. And they love to tell me that science is boring.

Well, that pretty sums up what most Asians feel and do with their Math & science. And whether its in our genes or culture is probably unimportant and not going to change a shit.

[nightwyrm]

I think asians being better at math mostly has to do with the much more intense mathematical education at early grades. Multiplication is introduced in grades 2 or 3 and students are expected to have the multiplication table (from 1 x 1 to 10 x 10) memorized by rote. Drilling with the multiplication table is probably easier in say Chinese because of the way we say our numbers (each number has one sylleble and the names of the numbers from one to a hundred is standardized when compared to English, ie. as someone has said before, 14 is ten four and 44 is four ten four in Chinese, none of this fourteen and forty-four nonsense) and how we do multiplications (four times six equals twenty-four is shortened to four six twenty-four). It's almost like a song or little rhyme that kids repeat and even after going through 15 years of elementary, high school and university education in Canada, I still do multiplication in my head in Chinese.

This head start may have given asians the advantage in elementary or highschool and this may give the perception that asians are better at math. But I find that the inequality in math ability starts to become evened out in grade 11 and 12, and by university, everyone is pretty much equal.

[JamesBannon]

As a Asian and a Math/science pro cum fanboy living in the modern Asian society, I can tell you all that the notion of Asians being good in Math/Science is true academically at least until they reach high school standard. But after a few years in their working life (Which got nothing to do with science/Math), most can't even solve a simple factorization/trigo equation and they even need calculators to do their arithmetic sums at work. And they love to tell me that science is boring.

Well, that pretty sums up what most Asians feel and do with their Math & science. And whether its in our genes or culture is probably unimportant and not going to change a shit.
It's the same as any other skill ... use it or lose it.

[Answerer]

I think asians being better at math mostly has to do with the much more intense mathematical education at early grades. Multiplication is introduced in grades 2 or 3 and students are expected to have the multiplication table (from 1 x 1 to 10 x 10) memorized by rote.

Probably true for many but just in case, you guys got the wrong idea. I didn't undergo any tuitions or intensive lessons for Math/science, hell, at higher level, I don't even study at all, playing games like Warcraft 2/Starcraft the night before exam next day. There was no pressure coming down from my teachers and parents for me to score well for both subjects but I did anyway. But the homework given every week were really monstrous.

[Yosei]

I'm an East Asian and I almost failed math.

I break almost every academic stereotype about Asians. My majors are philosophy and religion, and the subject I did best in high school was ancient and modern history. I despised math as a subject and thought it was dead boring, and just barely passing. The only thing that makes come even close to having ANY interest in "Asian" subjects is the study of Hua-Yen Buddhism.

Clearly there's something weird with my genes, or it really is cultural (I do have my own misgivings about certain aspects of Chinese culture).

[MrFrosty]

East Asians have gosu micro skills. :notworthy:

[Yosei]

Hm? :confused:

[JamesBannon]

I'm an East Asian and I almost failed math.

I break almost every academic stereotype about Asians. My majors are philosophy and religion, and the subject I did best in high school was ancient and modern history. I despised math as a subject and thought it was dead boring, and just barely passing. The only thing that makes come even close to having ANY interest in "Asian" subjects is the study of Hua-Yen Buddhism.

Clearly there's something weird with my genes, or it really is cultural (I do have my own misgivings about certain aspects of Chinese culture).
It's just you being who you happen to be. Neither genes nor culture rigidly determine these things. To be sure, they play a significant role but they do not rigidly define what kind of person you will be. What needs to be factored into these relations is that every individual is unique, even homozygotic twins are not completely identical. There is no-one quite like you in existence, who has existed or who will exist.

[Answerer]

The only thing that makes come even close to having ANY interest in "Asian" subjects is the study of Hua-Yen Buddhism.

You mean Avatamsaka Sutra?

East Asians have gosu micro skills.

I'm better at macro skills. Thats why I don't fancy DOTA that much.

[youngalexander]

Actually, I only believe this about Jews of Ashkenazi heritage, and it is because the non-subsistence-level-farming professions in which they were permitted to engage tended to be those that selected for superior intelligence. Since being a successful provider is a significant factor of reproductive success in societies where arranged marriage was the norm, artificial selection brought about generally higher IQs, ...
So, how many generations for this adaptive increase in intelligence?

No matter. Very brief compared to that of european and asiatic human groups 'being a successful provider' leading to 'reproductive success in societies' faced with the exigencies of ice ages.

Would you not agree?

[Yosei]

You mean Avatamsaka Sutra?



I'm better at macro skills. Thats why I don't fancy DOTA that much.

The Avatamsaka Sutra is my favourite spiritual text. The copy I have is a full translation by Thomas Cleary. I am particularly interested in the philosophy of interconnectedness and interpenetration in the Sutra.

I don't like DOTA, but I like Bomberman and most 2-D fighting games.

[Random Evil Guy]

A significant number of IIDB'ers believe that there is scientifically credible evidence Jews have higher IQ's.

Do you think the evidence East Asians score higher in Math due to genes is credible?

i.e
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p102636_index.html
Why Do Asian American Students Do Better on Mathematics Tests?

The Bell Curve provides references of East Asian test scores, both in Asia and as immigrants in the US.

Obviously one fact is whether East Asians elementary students score higher in math tests, and if they do, whether it is cultural or genetic or both.

If you think it is genetic or both genetic and cultural.

do east asians score better in general or is this just cultural differences with the us? timms tries to measure 'mathematical literacy' in general while pisa looks more at the specific curriculum goals.

http://www.pisa.no/pdf/P03_ma.pdf
http://nces.ed.gov/TIMSS/timss03tables.asp?figure=5&Quest=5

as we can see, the likes of japan, hong kong, korea, singapore are all doing quite well in both studies. however, there are several european countries up there as well and the difference is negligeble.

[Answerer]

The Avatamsaka Sutra is my favourite spiritual text. The copy I have is a full translation by Thomas Cleary. I am particularly interested in the philosophy of interconnectedness and interpenetration in the Sutra.

I know, its a great work given the fact that it was written centuries ago before the birth of modern science. It constantly reminds me that there are always other universes out there and our universe might just be a small dot in the face of the true infinite cosmos. And our human mind might seen to be too small comprehend that vastness.

I don't like DOTA, but I like Bomberman and most 2-D fighting games.

Well, DOTA is for kids.

[Yosei]

Either way, I'm not sure if East Asians score higher in maths due to their genes. Can we say that Englishmen or Americans score higher in English literature due to their genes? No. It's because they are more familiar with the genre and have been exposed to it more. I find it unlikely that it's different with East Asians' high scores in Maths.

It's a pity that not many people outside of Buddhism know about the Avatamsaka Sutra. To me it's a lot more cosmic in scope than the Bible.