Miracle workers needed; inquire within

[Vicious Love]

Heya. Welcome to the thread. Are you a True Believer? Is your faith greater than a mustard seed, and can it move mountains? Are you looking for a way to spread the word of your god and/or end war, famine, pestilence, and all those other fruits of human sin? You are? Then I believe I have just the thing. But first, I shall require some godless volunteers.

Atheists, agnostics, pantheists, and anyone else who questions or denies the existence of miracles or supernatural powers, do you accept the following pledge?

I, <insert name>, being of sound mind and scant faith in miracles, do hereby attest that I have thought of a 30-digit number, and recorded this number on a piece of paper, text file, or some other long-lasting medium. Furthermore, I do solemnly pledge that, should any member of these boards successfully guess this number, in full, in a single attempt, and correctly attribute said number to myself, I shall earnestly dedicate what remains of my life to bettering the world howsoever said member (henceforth "the miracle worker") sees fit.

This may include, but is not limited to, sincerely accepting the existence of any god, gods, or supernatural forces in which the miracle worker believes, expending any and all resources at my disposal in the course of spreading the miracle worker's message to the world via whatever avenues are open to me, or simply accepting whatever systems or codes of ethics or conduct the miracle worker prescribes.

I imagine it won't be long before we get an appreciable number of signatories; we've already got one in myself, and let me just assure you I would like nothing, and I do mean nothing, quite so much as evidence of the supernatural.

So why not try your luck? It sure beats trying to convince us via Internet debates. Just pray or meditate for a little clairvoyance, and just like that, you'll win a dozen or so missionaries, all of them doing good works, all of them spreading the word via any academic, political, media-related, or financial channels open to them, probably even selling their homes and possessions to raise money for your cause. Agreed?

Users who answered "1" to the above poll are requested to identify themselves in this thread. Users who chose "4", thereby accepting the challenge, are asked to do the same, and to post their guesses in this thread, rather than by PM or other means. Users who answered "5" are asked to briefly explain why they cannot or will not accept this particular challenge, as well as to propose alternate, comparably rigorous tests.

Many thanks to forum member ziffel for originally coming up with this challenge. I hope you endorse my promoting it in this fashion?

Edit: A thought occurs: Lurkers can't actually vote, can they? Stupid, stupid, stupid. Well, "new user" still applies, at least.

[eifion]

I accept the pledge. 30 digit number in a safe location.

[Deleet]

I accept the pledge. 30 digit number in a safe location.

I second that.

[Sven]

I, Sven, being of sound mind [I]and scant faith in miracles, do hereby attest that I have thought of a 30-digit number, and recorded this number on a piece of paper, text file, or some other long-lasting medium. Furthermore, I do solemnly pledge that, should any member of these boards successfully guess this number, in full, in a single attempt, and correctly attribute said number to myself, I shall earnestly dedicate what remains of my life to bettering the world howsoever said member (henceforth "the miracle worker") sees fit.

This may include, but is not limited to, sincerely [I] accepting the existence of any god, gods, or supernatural forces in which the miracle worker believes, expending any and all resources at my disposal in the course of spreading the miracle worker's message to the world via whatever avenues are open to me, or simply accepting whatever systems or codes of ethics or conduct the miracle worker prescribes.

[eifion]

In fact I'll add to that pledge.

A 30 digit number might be too much, so lets make it just one digit. One specific digit. My thumb. (see what I did there...?)

I had a nasty cooking accident a week ago. Chopped the end of my thumb off. If anyone on these boards wishes to undertake to pray, or lay on hands, or wave a crystal at it to make it regrow, and such a regrowth occurs then I'll consider the challenge met and dedicate the rest of my days to the furthering of prayer / hand-laying / crystal mining.

[Revolutionary]

What's a safe location? People steal information all the time.

[Howard]

I had a nasty cooking accident a week ago. Chopped the end of my thumb off. If anyone on these boards wishes to undertake to pray, or lay on hands, or wave a crystal at it to make it regrow, and such a regrowth occurs then I'll consider the challenge met and dedicate the rest of my days to the furthering of prayer / hand-laying / crystal mining.Can’t help with your thumb, but have you considered a second career as a mohel?

[Cheerful Charlie]

Heya. Welcome to the thread. Are you a True Believer? Is your faith greater than a mustard seed, and can it move mountains? Are you looking for a way to spread the word of your god and/or end war, famine, pestilence, and all those other fruits of human sin? You are? Then I believe I have just the thing. But first, I shall require some godless volunteers.

Atheists, agnostics, pantheists, and anyone else who questions or denies the existence of miracles or supernatural powers, do you accept the following pledge?

I, <insert name>, being of sound mind and scant faith in miracles, do hereby attest that I have thought of a 30-digit number, and recorded this number on a piece of paper, text file, or some other long-lasting medium. Furthermore, I do solemnly pledge that, should any member of these boards successfully guess this number, in full, in a single attempt, and correctly attribute said number to myself, I shall earnestly dedicate what remains of my life to bettering the world howsoever said member (henceforth "the miracle worker") sees fit.



This is an idea from Sam Harris, who has made this challenge. I took some pennies and marked them 1 - 0 with a magic marker, and drew them from a well skaken bag to create a 30 digit number. I returned each drawn penny and shook the bag again for a new draw and a new digit.

Come and get it suckers!

Cheerful Charlie

[rjf]

I've got my number.

[Vicious Love]

This is an idea from Sam Harris, who has made this challenge.

It is? Damn. I thought I was just ripping off ziffel. Ah, well. A miracle is a miracle, no matter who ends up eating crow.

[Vicious Love]

What's a safe location? People steal information all the time.

There's always an actual safe, if you're genuinely worried about some stealth-missionary or other breaking into your place. Not on my list of top 10 concerns, personally.

[purple_kathryn]

I also accept the pledge and I'm putting my number in a safe place right now.
I'd also be impressed if a psychic could come up with it.

[Cheerful Charlie]

It is? Damn. I thought I was just ripping off ziffel. Ah, well. A miracle is a miracle, no matter who ends up eating crow.


I don't know if Harris ripped off Ziffel. Its hip, its a fad. Everybody has to have their 30 digit number now.


Cheerful Charlie

[Revolutionary]

There's always an actual safe, if you're genuinely worried about some stealth-missionary or other breaking into your place. Not on my list of top 10 concerns, personally.Well, no, but then again I don't normally make a promise to become a mindless zombie follower of someone who guesses random numbers.

[Vicious Love]

Well, no, but then again I don't normally make a promise to become a mindless zombie follower of someone who guesses random numbers.

Point taken. Though I wouldn't worry about random guesses, if I were you. I'd imagine they're at least one or two orders of magnitude less likely to get you than a meteorite to the face.

[Vicious Love]

I don't know if Harris ripped off Ziffel. Its hip, its a fad. Everybody has to have their 30 digit number now.

I'm just tired of so-called true believers evading this sort of challenge in other threads, and then carrying on as though it never happened. That should be comparably difficult in this thread; they're free to ignore it (which is telling in itself), but they can't pretend to accept and then hold out on us.

Edit: Though I do wonder why the two users who voted 4 and 5 have opted to remain mute. Kinda defeats the point.

[BioBeing]

So who has accepted the challenge so far?

My 30 digit number was generated by random number generator in MatLab. If you can hack my computer you might be able to find it.

[pob14]

Got my number. I further agree to pay expenses for Randi's preliminary testing for anybody who gets my number, in exchange for the book rights.

Caveat as to mine, though (and I would recommend this for the whole thread, assuming there are ever any real guesses): No fishing. I will answer no questions along the lines of "I see a six somewhere in there, is that right?" Nor will I respond to any guesses other than with "Right" or "Wrong"; no hints like "you got six of the first nine and were one off on the 24th digit." No partial guesses will be acknowledged, and no guesses not specifically tied to my number will be considered. (I saw a bunch of this going on in the other thread, so just being clear.)

[Vicious Love]

My 30 digit number was generated by random number generator in MatLab. If you can hack my computer you might be able to find it.

Kinda defeats the point of the challenge, doesn't it? If someone does guess the number, you'll assume they did just that. I figured numbers in .txt files would be used to pad out the last few bytes of a burnt CD or DVD, or something like that.

[Revolutionary]

Point taken. Though I wouldn't worry about random guesses, if I were you. I'd imagine they're at least one or two orders of magnitude less likely to get you than a meteorite to the face.I wouldn't be worried about random guessing. The chances of someone breaking into my place knowing that I promised to be their slave are much higher than meteorites smacking me in the face.

[Vicious Love]

I wouldn't be worried about random guessing. The chances of someone breaking into my place knowing that I promised to be their slave are much higher than meteorites smacking me in the face.

Hm. I suppose you could always revise the pledge to state that you will think of a number and write it down once someone accepts your challenge, and no sooner. Keep it somewhere unsnaggable on your person for however long it takes the challenger to respond (presumably not more than a day or two. Anyone who needs longer than that to pray should raise all sorts of red flags). Should they fail, discard the number, and think up a new one next trial. Sound secure enough?

[Sven]

Edit: Though I do wonder why the two users who voted 4 and 5 have opted to remain mute. Kinda defeats the point.
You should have made this a public poll. Perhaps a mod can change it?

[eifion]

Can’t help with your thumb, but have you considered a second career as a mohel?

I did that for a while but got the sack.....



Sorry, I'll get my coat.

[pu8l1u5]

My number is in a safe place.

I used a Fortran random number generator for my number. I added my own little spin to this as well – I don’t know what my number is. I ran the code several times to make sure it was working then ran it once more without looking at the results.

[BioBeing]

Kinda defeats the point of the challenge, doesn't it? If someone does guess the number, you'll assume they did just that. I figured numbers in .txt files would be used to pad out the last few bytes of a burnt CD or DVD, or something like that.

Wherever anyone saves their number, there is going to be some chance that, if someone does guess it, they managed to sneak a peek at it somehow. I'm just pointing out that to get mine they would have to hack their way to my PC. And yes, I do think there is a higher chance of them doing that than actually divining it by supernatural means. Which is why I encrypted it too.

[Vicious Love]

You should have made this a public poll. Perhaps a mod can change it?

I'd mistakenly assumed that was the default. Request seconded.

[Revolutionary]

Hm. I suppose you could always revise the pledge to state that you will think of a number and write it down once someone accepts your challenge, and no sooner. Keep it somewhere unsnaggable on your person for however long it takes the challenger to respond (presumably not more than a day or two. Anyone who needs longer than that to pray should raise all sorts of red flags). Should they fail, discard the number, and think up a new one next trial. Sound secure enough?It does, but do people actually take up the challenge?

[Vicious Love]

Wherever anyone saves their number, there is going to be some chance that, if someone does guess it, they managed to sneak a peek at it somehow.

Obviously enough. The idea is to make that so difficult that the larceny skills required to do so undetected might as well be miraculous.

I'm just pointing out that to get mine they would have to hack their way to my PC.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I didn't think anyone would save theirs on a rig with 'net access, nor any storage medium which leaves their sight/home. The odds of anything happening are ludicrously low, but the stakes are comparably high. Who knows? We just might run afoul of the fundie Prince of Thieves.

And yes, I do think there is a higher chance of them doing that than actually divining it by supernatural means.

I suppose you could always revise your pledge as suggested above, which would make the chances of trickery downright infinitesimal (pretty much nil if we discount Descartes' demon, our being brains in vats, our homes being monitored by fundie spy cameras, and other such propositions). I'd imagine an omniscient god can read numbers made up on the spot as well as he can those prepared a week in advance.

Which is why I encrypted it too.

Sound thinking.

[Sven]

I'd mistakenly assumed that was the default. Request seconded.
A PM to a mod certainly works better. Or report yourself. :D

[Vicious Love]

It does, but do people actually take up the challenge?

In the day or so since I started this thread, I've gotten one such response to the poll, though the respondent has yet to identify him/herself.

I personally don't expect anyone to accept the challenge (excepting the occasional basket case who will proceed to fail spectacularly), and I feel that that is precisely why the challenge should exist, and be as close to airtight as possible. We've set the stage for the miracle workers, provided them with an ideal opportunity to make good on their claims, left them with no choice but to put up, shut up, or pretend this thread doesn't exist.

A PM to a mod certainly works better. Or report yourself. :D

Heh. Done and done. I should probably get some sleep, while I'm at it. I'm totally out of focus.

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

I'll go even further and post my number, here, in this forum and know they'll still get it wrong!

[TomboyMom]

I'm in, got my randomy random number. Why are skeptics so much more confident than supernaturalists of all stripes?

[Revolutionary]

I personally don't expect anyone to accept the challenge (excepting the occasional basket case who will proceed to fail spectacularly), and I feel that that is precisely why the challenge should exist, and be as close to airtight as possible. We've set the stage for the miracle workers, provided them with an ideal opportunity to make good on their claims, left them with no choice but to put up, shut up, or pretend this thread doesn't exist.Has any miracle worker claimed this sort of miracle? If someone claims they can levitate, for instance, then their inability and unwillingness to guess a number does not address that claim. It only shows they themselves are not omnipotent.

[Vicious Love]

Has any miracle worker claimed this sort of miracle?

I figure it's well within the abilities of an omniscient god. Obviously, the challenge is no good for those who claim to only be able to dowse for water, read vague fortunes, levitate objects when no one is looking, or describe people's auras in flowery language.

[Revolutionary]

People call God omnipotent, but I can't recall people saying that they can control God and essentially become omnipotent themselves. There's the moving mountains thing, but they always say something about it not being God's will.

[Vicious Love]

People call God omnipotent, but I can't recall people saying that they can control God and essentially become omnipotent themselves.

A lot of them do believe that God regularly answers prayers, though, even for relatively minor, everyday things. If this is the case, I find it difficult to reconcile God's willingness to cure mild cases of the flu with His unwillingness to save us from the flames. To say nothing of His unwillingness to keep that Human Immunodeficiency Virus He created in check, but that's going off topic.

[pob14]

People call God omnipotent, but I can't recall people saying that they can control God and essentially become omnipotent themselves. There's the moving mountains thing, but they always say something about it not being God's will.

Mark 11:22-24 (NIV):

"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

So the fundies don't believe the Bible either? Cool.

[Ghostdog]

Ha! You must be mad if you think miracles do not exist! Why just yesterday I saw a little 4 year old blind kid on tv healed by the Lord Jesus! Her faith in God gave her life. And don't try to argue that there was no evidence on the show to suggest she wasn't still blind! She eagerly showed her newfound sight by running into chairs and people! So there you go...

P.S.- TV has never lied to me... yet.

[Ruiner]

I pledge to do whatever if they can match every numeral in this number. Their answer does not have to exactly match the order, but there may be no extra occurrences of the number. To be fair I am using base 10, ie not cheating.

Other stipulations: Guess the first 3 digits in the correct order and I will devote the same amount of seconds to meditation/prayer/reading that the guesser chooses. Guess the first 6 digits in any order and I will devote the equivalent amount in seconds to meditation/prayer/church/reading/etc that the guesser chooses. If you manage to guess the first 9 digits (from the left) I will devote my life to your God(s)ess(es) or general faith and forever spread the message of that Deity/idea/etc and everything that the Deity/idea/leaders/etc desire of me (as expressed by the leaders of the faith or the book.)

If you guess 30 digits out of order with no extra or omitted numbers I will worship and praise whatever you want me to. If they're in order I will go to seminary/synagogue/bible college etc. and become a priest/pastor/leader of a congregation of the faith you choose me to.

I've laid out my terms and they seem rather fair. I will only respond if you are using too many guesses on the smaller numbers or if you get the number(s) right.

Good Luck/God be with you/Allah be with you/In Jesus' name/etc

[spamandham]

So why not try your luck? It sure beats trying to convince us via Internet debates. Just pray or meditate for a little clairvoyance, and just like that, you'll win a dozen or so missionaries, all of them doing good works, all of them spreading the word via any academic, political, media-related, or financial channels open to them, probably even selling their homes and possessions to raise money for your cause. Agreed?

Seems fair enough. Your number is 10, in base 'your number' notation.

Perhaps you should have thought of this little loophole before signing your life away. :D

[NZSkep]

standard excuse why this challange will not work: blah blah blah don't test god blah blah blah

Never mind that by praying at all they are testing god all the time.

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

Some of the stuff we ask for might require God to actually look up the answer or cheat off Satan.

[Vicious Love]

Seems fair enough. Your number is 10, in base 'your number' notation.

Curses! Foiled again!

Perhaps you should have thought of this little loophole before signing your life away. :D

I probably should've. Oh, well. What's the good word, your Holiness?

[Ruiner]

You know, if someone can just guess the first 3 numbers I'd be impressed... 9 i'd be convinced... 30 I'd just be in awe.

There was this one website that could 'guess' your number from a range of 0-99. I was freaked. Could this be god's website?

It was something where you didn't input your number, you just thought of it. The accuracy was 100% unless I lied. I should have bookmarked it. =\

[IconoclasticGoat]

You know, if someone can just guess the first 3 numbers I'd be impressed... 9 i'd be convinced... 30 I'd just be in awe.

There was this one website that could 'guess' your number from a range of 0-99. I was freaked. Could this be god's website?

It was something where you didn't input your number, you just thought of it. The accuracy was 100% unless I lied. I should have bookmarked it. =\

Was it 37?

[Weltall]

Not only do I accept the pledge, I pledge that if any believer guesses someone else's number I'll convert. Thus, don't bother doing whatever it is you've gotta do to learn my number, for purposes of this exercise all you have to do to convince me is get anyone else's correct.