Some serious thought about Creation

[Brett89]

I was thinking.....All the animals and species we see today must have been on the ark(THATS ALOT OF ANIMALS, some we dont even know about i guess) if it really happened. There is no way in hell that the ark could hold all those animals. They also cant explain why we have fossils of dinos, and sabertooth cats and all that stuff...why would they have died out after the flood even if they were on the ark, they were the most powerful creatures around. where do the creationist get their basis for the flood and all the species we have today on earth, inless after the flood they admit that evolution took place to create all that we have today, but evolution cant work that quickly.

[Sven]

I was thinking.....All the animals and species we see today must have been on the ark(THATS ALOT OF ANIMALS, some we dont even know about i guess) if it really happened. There is no way in hell that the ark could hold all those animals. They also cant explain why we have fossils of dinos, and sabertooth cats and all that stuff...why would they have died out after the flood even if they were on the ark, they were the most powerful creatures around. where do the creationist get their basis for the flood and all the species we have today on earth, inless after the flood they admit that evolution took place to create all that we have today, but evolution cant work that quickly.
Nice that you came up with this all on your own. These are actually among the most common objections to Noah's flood.

There are many, many more. If you are interested, we can give you links.

Creationists somehow manage to convince themselves that the flood happened depsite this problems; in doing so, they have to invent scientific "facts" out of thin air and claim a bunch of (additional to the flood!) miracles which somehow were forgotten to be mentioned in the bible.

[Iacchus]

I believe that Noah's flood was a regional flood, local to Asia Minor and whatnot, which may have occurred around 5,000 BC.

[Brett89]

Well after looking at alot of info on this topic, thats the conclusion i came to Sven, never said it was my own idea. It kind of shocks me though that people believe events with no backing at all from science or the physical world around them.

[Wolfie]

It kind of shocks me though that people believe events with no backing at all from science or the physical world around them.

Well said.

The words of a true Internet Infidel!

[Brett89]

^?? is that sarcastic or not?

[Vicious Love]

^?? is that sarcastic or not?

Nope. I don't think Sven was being sarcastic, either. It's just hard to tell over the Internet.

[Sven]

Well after looking at alot of info on this topic, thats the conclusion i came to Sven, never said it was my own idea. It kind of shocks me though that people believe events with no backing at all from science or the physical world around them.
Problem is: Many of those really think that they are backed up by science - because of their sheer ignorance and because of so-called creation scientists lying to them.

[Scifinerdgrl]

Space was the least of Noah's problems. How did he keep all the animals from breaking out of his homemade cages and eating each other? How did he know what foods to bring and how much? Did he bring a few thousand extra of some species to feed the carnivores? And what about food for themselves? If he only brought two of everything, does that mean the dinosaurs went extinct because Noah's family got hungry and ate them?

And what about disease in those tight quarters? The typical animal shelter with only cats & dogs spreads all sorts of diseases. Why didn't Noah's animals get sick?

[Brett89]

good point^

[BriAnna]

cause everyone is love and light in god's world... oh wait, isn't that why they created the ark to begin with :P

i think the bible is about things that happened at the time, like there was a huge flood but since the people of that time had no way of knowing it wasn't the entire world, got caught in the perspective of things and determined it to be true after time. (this is how legends are made) after a while the church decided to put it in its book of legends...

[GenesisNemesis]

No one has told me where the fresh-water creatures went, or why the Saber Tooth tigers had such huge teeth if God gave "every plant for meat".

[RAFH]

The best probabilities for the Noachian Flood tradition is it was borrowed from other older cultures in the region, most likely those of Mesopotamia though possible some Egyptian influence. These are relatively arid areas, the most distinctive features are those involving water, because water is the stuff of life. Without it, everything dies. But too much water is also a serious problem. All of these areas have large rivers, rivers flood occasionally, about every 500 to 1000 years they do so catastrophically. This is a good possible source of the flood traditions and since floods occur worldwide its also why there are flood traditions throughout the world.

The Mesopotamia region would be exceptionally susceptible to both riverine flooding and storm surge/tsunami flooding. The region around the Shatt-al-Arab has been steadily infilling due to sedimentation from the rivers. Previously the swamps there were likely much more extensive and more easily flooded.

The same is true with the Nile, while it floods annually, there is the probability of mega-floods that cover the entire flood plain.

There is also the refilling of the Black Sea, either from the Mediterranean or from the Caspian. Its been established the Black Sea was about 100 meters lower than current some 7000 to 8000 years ago. There are signs of substantial settlements at that prior shoreline. From either source or both the refilling would have been catastrophic for those living there.

But as to a global flood in recent times, ie - less than 100,000 years, no way. There is nothing to confirm or eve suggest such.

[uberhobo]

Space was the least of Noah's problems. How did he keep all the animals from breaking out of his homemade cages and eating each other? How did he know what foods to bring and how much? Did he bring a few thousand extra of some species to feed the carnivores? And what about food for themselves? If he only brought two of everything, does that mean the dinosaurs went extinct because Noah's family got hungry and ate them?

And what about disease in those tight quarters? The typical animal shelter with only cats & dogs spreads all sorts of diseases. Why didn't Noah's animals get sick?

Mark Twain had a funny take on that idea, but he insisted that all the world's diseases had to be loaded onto the ark as well, so they could survive until today and that Noah and his family must have had all sorts of oozing boils and sores from all the nasty bugs. It's from his story, Letters From The Earth (http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/twain/letearth.htm). It gets a little preachy towards the end, but it's pretty good.

[Scifinerdgrl]

Mark Twain had a funny take on that idea, but he insisted that all the world's diseases had to be loaded onto the ark as well, so they could survive until today and that Noah and his family must have had all sorts of oozing boils and sores from all the nasty bugs. It's from his story, Letters From The Earth (http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/twain/letearth.htm). It gets a little preachy towards the end, but it's pretty good.

You'd think God would have had the foresight to take out the Scorpions & cockroaches while he was knocking off the evil humans. And what about Leprosy? It survived, so obviously Noah's family was carrying it! :eek:

[Jobar]

From the *complete version* Genesis, Chap. 7:

16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him; and the Lord shut him in with a Slaver stasis field. (http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=206)

And *that*, my children, solved all Noah's problems. :D

Aha, but I just realized! The ark obviously contained many stasis fields. Noah first released all the plants, then insects, then small herbivores, then small carnivores, large herbivores, large carnivores, in a careful pattern designed to prevent ecological catastrophe!

The reason we don't see things like sabretooths and dinosaurs is, obviously, because they haven't been released yet. Somewhere in a secret cave, concealed by God's angels no doubt, the descendants of Noah are carefully following a precise plan given them by God, and perhaps one day soon will unleash the tyrannosaurs and dragons. No doubt as a prelude to the Second Coming!

;)

[Morgana]

Mark Twain had a funny take on that idea, but he insisted that all the world's diseases had to be loaded onto the ark as well, so they could survive until today and that Noah and his family must have had all sorts of oozing boils and sores from all the nasty bugs.Except that disease isn't caused by "bugs". It's caused by bad hair, evil humours, and Satan.

[RBH]

Aha, but I just realized! The ark obviously contained many stasis fields. Noah first released all the plants, then insects, then small herbivores, then small carnivores, large herbivores, large carnivores, in a careful pattern designed to prevent ecological catastrophe!

The reason we don't see things like sabretooths and dinosaurs is, obviously, because they haven't been released yet. Somewhere in a secret cave, concealed by God's angels no doubt, the descendants of Noah are carefully following a precise plan given them by God, and perhaps one day soon will unleash the tyrannosaurs and dragons. No doubt as a prelude to the Second Coming!

;)That sounds like the proposal sheet for a cheesy novel or a cheesier 1957 scifi movie. :D

RBH

[espritch]

I believe that Noah's flood was a regional flood, local to Asia Minor and whatnot, which may have occurred around 5,000 BC.

It has been hypothesized that there was a massive flood around the Black Sea around 7000 years ago (caused by the opening of the Bosphorus Strait). However, whether the Noah flood story was inspired by this flood or not, the story as presented in Genesis is a tribal myth that only people completely ignorant of science like primitive tribesmen or Creationists could possibly take seriously.

[travc]

I think you are all missing the obvious. The "ark" was really a Tardis. Damn Timelords. ;)

Though seriously... yeah, it appears an adaptation of a Mesopotamian tale (certain matching details), though lots of other cultures have flood myths too.

I never did understand the point of that story though. Many of the parables have a pretty valid "lesson" in them, but the flood thing neither elucidates what is bad (enough for god to wipe everyone out) nor what made Noah good enough to be spared. Overall, it seems more like a crude plot device to reset the stage.

[Mike Elphick]

Creationists somehow manage to convince themselves that the flood happened depsite this problems; in doing so, they have to invent scientific "facts" out of thin air and claim a bunch of (additional to the flood!) miracles which somehow were forgotten to be mentioned in the bible.Something they hide under the carpet is the fact that animals consume between 5 and 10 percent body weight as food. Over a period of a year, this represents many times the mass of animals. How do creationists hide this little problem? They tell us the animals hibernated! The also tell us that dinosaurs were take on board as eggs, despite the fact that the Bible tells us the animals made their own way to the Ark.

The creationists' so-called 'scientific interpretations' of the Noahacian Flood story are typical of the inventions and distortions they apply to all the rest of their anti-evolution propaganda.

[Queen of Swords]

The also tell us that dinosaurs were take on board as eggs

It's a little-known fact that dinosaurs laid color-coded eggs - pink for female, blue for male - making it easy for Noah to pick one of each gender as the Lord had told him to.

[Plognark]

Something they hide under the carpet is the fact that animals consume between 5 and 10 percent body weight as food. Over a period of a year, this represents many times the mass of animals. How do creationists hide this little problem? They tell us the animals hibernated! The also tell us that dinosaurs were take on board as eggs, despite the fact that the Bible tells us the animals made their own way to the Ark.

The creationists' so-called 'scientific interpretations' of the Noahacian Flood story are typical of the inventions and distortions they apply to all the rest of their anti-evolution propaganda.

I did the math once, and for a pair of juvenile elephants you'd need to take 1% of the volume of the ark in water and hay. That's just for a pair of elephants alone...

[Mike Elphick]

It's a little-known fact that dinosaurs laid color-coded eggs - pink for female, blue for male - making it easy for Noah to pick one of each gender as the Lord had told him to.Good point! Alternatively, if they were skilled enough (thought the help of God :rolleyes: ), they could have candled (http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/eggs/res26-candling.html) the eggs to determine the 'kind' and sex.

[Jet Black]

They tell us the animals hibernated! The also tell us that dinosaurs were take on board as eggs, despite the fact that the Bible tells us the animals made their own way to the Ark.


Think of it like the evacuations during WW2, the parents bringing their babies and eggs to noah, before striding valiantly towards their deaths at God's hands.

[Mike Elphick]

Think of it like the evacuations during WW2, the parents bringing their babies and eggs to noah, before striding valiantly towards their deaths at God's hands.Have you ever tried tying a luggage label to an egg?

[skinumb]

I'm no expert, but my guess is that the Bible only mentions the key details. I reckon Noah would have built a flotila of supply boats to pull behind the Ark. He'd certainly need a sealed aquarium-type boat to keep fresh fish in.

As for disease, it's all in the miasma surely.

rich

[Wolfie]

^?? is that sarcastic or not?

No - I promise you that my sarcasm is heavy and very obvious!

Sven is not the sarcastic type.

I'm genuinely praising you for displaying exactly the right attitude that will serve you well on this discussion board.

Hehehehe - Getting respect from Wolfie - you are doing well! Don't knock it!


Oh - and thanks for the props, VL.

[Wolfie]

I'm no expert, but my guess is that the Bible only mentions the key details. I reckon Noah would have built a flotila of supply boats to pull behind the Ark. He'd certainly need a sealed aquarium-type boat to keep fresh fish in.

As for disease, it's all in the miasma surely.

rich

Ummmm - the ark was a barge - it had no motive capability, so it was incapable of pulling anything anywhere. Totally at the mercy of wind and tide...

I doubt if Noah would have been allowed to do anything off his own bat. God gave him the dimensions of the ark, told him what wood to use, told him to put a door in the side and allowed him one minute window.

The whole ark story is ludicrous in the extreme and defies rational analysis.

[Wolfie]

Hmm - Skinumb's comment has given me food for thought.

The bible claims that the flood was global.

OK - let's go with that as the fundies claim that the bible is inerrant. The waters eventually recede to what is pretty much the modern coastlines - which means that about 70% of the globe is still covered with water.

Does not that infer that, statistically, even when the waters have receded, the ark is still likely to be 'at sea'? Months could pass before it sights land and, with no motive power, there is no guarantee it would ever be capable of making landfall.

But the argument can be taken beyond that 70% chance.

Surely, as the waters receded, currents would flow in the direction of recession - so the ark woiuld be carried along with them. This would virtually guarantee that the ark would be left 'at sea' when the water level stopped falling.

Unless you want to argue that the water all evaporated - yeah, all 29,000 feet of it - globally.

[Scifinerdgrl]

Ummmm - the ark was a barge - it had no motive capability, so it was incapable of pulling anything anywhere. Totally at the mercy of wind and tide...

I doubt if Noah would have been allowed to do anything off his own bat. God gave him the dimensions of the ark, told him what wood to use, told him to put a door in the side and allowed him one minute window.

The whole ark story is ludicrous in the extreme and defies rational analysis.

It's easier to believe in Santa Claus. He has an army of slave laborers, only works his magic once a year, and has the same magical power to see into the soul as jesus, mary & god, who are of course, real. ;)

[Wolfie]

It's easier to believe in Santa Claus. He has an army of slave laborers, only works his magic once a year, and has the same magical power to see into the soul as jesus, mary & god, who are of course, real. ;)

You mean *gulp* that Polar Exress was made up? But I saw elves!