Excorcism on 20/20. How can we explain it?

[Unsavedsinner]

Hi there, I recently watched 20/20 on ABC about Excorcisms. I really do not know how to explain this one; The girl posessed had no psychological disorders, and before this event occured, she claimed that chairs, along with other furniture were toppled over by some "invisible force". There were also bite marks along her back, places she could not reach herself. After the priest gave her an excorcism, she had no further problems. Can anyone explain this? I'm not sure how. :P

[Writer@Large]

Having not seen the episode in question, I would not presume to offer a certain or complete explanation based solely on your brief recollection. However, from the way you described it, there's *nothing* that could not have a perfectly natural explanation. Just theorizing here ...

1) "The girl possessed had no psychological disorders." Says whom? She had no *diagnosed* disorders. Thinking you're possessed seems to me to be a definite mental problem.

2) "She claimed that chairs ... were toppled over by some invisible force." She claims is the key here. She could be lying, flat-out.

3) "bite marks on her back, in places she could not reach." Two things come immediately to mind: someone else bit her, either abusively or in collusion; or, she used some implement to create them (I'm guessing they didn't have the bites foresically examined, but just said "Yup, those look like bite marks").

4) "After the exorcism, she had no purther problems." Again, says who? If the exorcism was part of her mental psychosis, then the exorcism itself becomes a sort of "cure." It doesn't me she isn't still mentally disturbed.

--W@L

[VitalOne]

Hi there, I recently watched 20/20 on ABC about Excorcisms. I really do not know how to explain this one; The girl posessed had no psychological disorders, and before this event occured, she claimed that chairs, along with other furniture were toppled over by some "invisible force". There were also bite marks along her back, places she could not reach herself. After the priest gave her an excorcism, she had no further problems. Can anyone explain this? I'm not sure how. :P

Well here's how an atheist/skeptic would explain it:
- Chairs topple over all the time (by the wind, gravity and other forces)
- Bite marks could be anything, possibly her own nail marks or someone elses
- The priest giving her an excercism is just a placebo....

[Unsavedsinner]

Well, I don't think that is good enough. They also said they had about 5 witnesses. Unless they are all making this up to be on TV, I don't know.

[VitalOne]

Well, I don't think that is good enough. They also said they had about 5 witnesses. Unless they are all making this up to be on TV, I don't know.
Witnesses don't matter at all...

[Carin Nel]

Exorcism is nothing new for christians. It is part of the commission Christ gave His disciples to drive out demons, heal the sick, etc.
Regards,
Carin Nel

[purple_kathryn]

Watch Derren Brown

[Vicious Love]

Hi there, I recently watched 20/20 on ABC about Excorcisms. I really do not know how to explain this one; The girl posessed had no psychological disorders, and before this event occured, she claimed that chairs, along with other furniture were toppled over by some "invisible force". There were also bite marks along her back, places she could not reach herself. After the priest gave her an excorcism, she had no further problems. Can anyone explain this? I'm not sure how. :P

I'm going to need more (verifiable) details about the case before I treat it as any more real than that guy who had the archangel Gabriel dictate a book to him.

Well here's how an atheist/skeptic would explain it:

I, for my part, can speak for myself. Thanks for the pre-emptive strawman, though. It should save time later in the discussion.

- Chairs topple over all the time (by the wind, gravity and other forces)

Attributing a chair's toppling over to gravity alone is absurd. Wind is seldom sufficient explanation for anything, unless the girl's furniture was terribly designed, or she lived in some sort of wind tunnel.

- Bite marks could be anything, possibly her own nail marks or someone elses

Pretty much. I don't think anyone without intent to believe or to deceive could possibly mistake nail marks for bite marks (unless whoever made those marks was awfully talented at faking bite marks), but I very much doubt whoever came to the conclusion that the marks were bite marks was wholly impartial. Not that it would be all that hard for an accomplice to just bite her.

- The priest giving her an excercism is just a placebo....

If there was actually a mental illness involved, then I suppose that's one way of putting it. Though I doubt going from one delusion to another qualifies as a placebo response.

Witnesses don't matter at all...

Don't be absurd. Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence, though, and a handful of alleged witnesses without physical evidence are... well, rather ordinary. And not averse to a spot of publicity or a movie deal, I'd imagine.

Exorcism is nothing new for christians. It is part of the commission Christ gave His disciples to drive out demons, heal the sick, etc.
Regards,
Carin Nel

I don't suppose you, as a Christian, possess such powers? Immunity to snake venom and whatnot? That sort of thing can be easily tested, you know, and a successful test would rock the scientific world, make you rich and famous (use the money for good works and use the fame to spread the word, if you're worried about being too wealthy for Heaven), and probably win over thousands upon thousands of converts, at the very least.

[Writer@Large]

Well, I don't think that is good enough. They also said they had about 5 witnesses. Unless they are all making this up to be on TV, I don't know.
You've never heard of people conspiring for fame and fortune? It would certainly make the bite marks on her back easier.

But, again, we're relying on your vague recollection of a show you watched. Do you have any details of the case? A link to the video you saw? A website telling this story? In this day and age, I find it hard to believe a claim like this doesn't have any Internet coverage.

--W@L

[dettus]

Clearly a demon possessed this girl and the excorsist cast it out.

The toppled furniture could be the demon's telekenic powers. Or maybe the inner struggle within the girl awakened latent mental powers.

The bite marks are from the demon, although I wonder if the marks were compared to the girl's teeth. Again the inner struggle thing, the girl attempts to fight the demon by biting it, and the wound shows up on her own flesh.

Did the girls speak languages she wouldn't normally know? Those could be from the demon or past lives from the girl. The struggle with the demon awakens these sort of memories and powers.

[RAFH]

Another case of someone recalling an instance of someone else presenting a scenario wherein someone else claims to have experienced various phenomena. Gee, I wonder if I should sign up now?

I remember my grandfather telling me about how he was the last living King of Hawaii and upon his death I would be the next King of Hawaii. He explained the whole thing very logically. But for some reason my Hawaiian friends make fun of me every time I suggest I am their King.

Oh yeah, VO, you still owe me $100,000. Prove you don't or pay up. If I remember correctly Unsavedsinner does too. Yahzi and Wayne Delia and KLK and a couple of others will back me up on this. I have the papers here somewhere. All signed and sealed.

[aa5874]

Clearly a demon possessed this girl and the excorsist cast it out.

So, this girl can recognise demons even though these demons are internal. That's very odd, isn't it?

How can it be ascertained that a person actually has demons, how do you know demons have left a body and through which orifice do they leave?

Clearly, there is something not right here. And, why is it that demons seem to like to possess girls? I was a member of a church and only the girls got demons.

By the way, I know how to put demons in a coconut. I have seen it done on TV, and it worked, or should I say, the scam worked very well.

[Jaggers]

After the priest gave her an excorcism, she had no further problems. Can anyone explain this? I'm not sure how. :PI saw the same segment, and this is wrong. First of all, the woman died from cancer before the making of the segment, so we have no testimony from her. The only witnesses presented were the woman's daughter and a "paranormal investigator" who has just written a book about the "phenomena." Hardly disinterested witnesses. Next, the woman did not have just one exorcism but MULTIPLE (can't remember the exact number, but it was more than two), and it was not clearly stated that the "demon possession" was successfully terminated by any of the exorcisms. The daughter gave a very vague statement that her mother was "helped" by the procedures. They showed a VERY short clip of video tape of one of the exorcisms. All it depicted was some people holding a screaming woman while somebody stood over her chanting some nonsense. No pictures of any bite marks, no speaking in strange languages, nothing remotely extraordinary in the video footage. They claimed that, in an exorcism performed on her in a church, the woman, who was restrained in a pew, stood up in the middle of the exorcism, thereby ripping the pew from the floor to which it was secured. Strangely, no video footage of that was shown, nor any evidence beyond the anecdote from the daughter. Finally, no specific descriptions or detailed accounts of any medical or diagnostic tests were presented at all (especially regarding the cancer, its onset, and possible effects on her psychological state), leading me to wonder if any scientific measures were even taken to explain her condition before jumping to the exorcism angle. Frankly, I'm surprised that a "skeptic" would have found anything by the segment remotely convincing.

[Carin Nel]

I was a member of a church and only the girls got demons.


Which church was that, and how do you know?
Carin Nel

[Carin Nel]

I don't suppose you, as a Christian, possess such powers? Immunity to snake venom and whatnot? That sort of thing can be easily tested, you know, and a successful test would rock the scientific world, make you rich and famous (use the money for good works and use the fame to spread the word, if you're worried about being too wealthy for Heaven), and probably win over thousands upon thousands of converts, at the very least.

I have, as a matter of fact, prayed for a boy last Wednesday and his neck was healed.
I have prayed for people who had been afflicted by demons and they were delivered.
I have, however, not been in a situation where I had to drink poison for the sake of the Kingdom of God because of scoffers who know of the same verse that you are referring to and use it against God's evangelists in communist countries where they still kill people for their faith. I know of missionaries who had to drink poison to "prove" the Scriptures to their torturers and who lived to tell of their ordeal.
It is not our power, but God's power in us as Christians who does the miracles. We can't boast about anything we ourselves do.
So to answer your question, no, I don't have such powers.

Regards,
Carin Nel

[WWJD4aKlondikeBar]

I have, as a matter of fact, prayed for a boy last Wednesday and his neck was healed.We have absolutely no reason to believe that those two things are related, other than your having put them in the same sentence. I suppose that I could pray for all sorts of stuff and sometimes I'd get it right and sometimes God works in mysterious ways. Whoop-tee-doo!

I have prayed for people who had been afflicted by demons and they were delivered.How did you know that they were afflicted by demons or that they were "delivered"? Should you take me as seriously when I tell you that I prayed to FSM to remove your demons and it worked?

[modernPrimitive]

Exorcism is a powerful psychological/spiritual tool. If anyone read my thread a couple months ago about deities and the unconscious it would all make perfect sense. Ritual is a powerful tool that can be used to upset or restore balance to unconscious elements inherant to the psyche.

"Possession" could be a tempory form of shizophrenia caused by non-neurological (emotional / guilt) issues or by willingfully opening up parts of the unconscious that should not be messed with by amateurs. We all have our demons both personal and archetypal.

...now where did I leave that necronomicon again....

[RAFH]

I have, as a matter of fact, prayed for a boy last Wednesday and his neck was healed.
I have prayed for people who had been afflicted by demons and they were delivered.
I have, however, not been in a situation where I had to drink poison for the sake of the Kingdom of God because of scoffers who know of the same verse that you are referring to and use it against God's evangelists in communist countries where they still kill people for their faith. I know of missionaries who had to drink poison to "prove" the Scriptures to their torturers and who lived to tell of their ordeal.
It is not our power, but God's power in us as Christians who does the miracles. We can't boast about anything we ourselves do.
So to answer your question, no, I don't have such powers.

Regards,
Carin Nel

Nor any others that you can demonstrate.

All you have are claims and assertions. Oh, yeah, I forgot the feeble excuses for why you don't have anything more.

[RAFH]

We have absolutely no reason to believe that those two things are related, other than your having put them in the same sentence. I suppose that I could pray for all sorts of stuff and sometimes I'd get it right and sometimes God works in mysterious ways. Whoop-tee-doo!

How did you know that they were afflicted by demons or that they were "delivered"? Should you take me as seriously when I tell you that I prayed to FSM to remove your demons and it worked?

Actually WWJD4aKlondikeBar (and someday you will have to explain that nick) I also was cosmically aware of the demons possessing Carin Nel, and I also prayed mightily and even sacrificed many and much and though between us we drove out many hideous demons, you probably are convinced we got them all, but, unfortunately, despite both our best efforts, millions of demons remain. For the sake of Carin Nel's intransubstantiated soul, its going to take the personal attentions of our Supreme Super-Duper Demon Destroyer, the Great, Mysterious and Sublime Yahzi and his Sacred Patented Baseball Bat of the Holy Reality to drive those demons right out of dear Carin Nel. I am convinced its the only true cure in this case.

[Vicious Love]

I have, as a matter of fact, prayed for a boy last Wednesday and his neck was healed.

So you claim, and if I believed you, I would immediately convert to your faith. Unfortunately, neck injuries heal all the time so, pending more rigorous testing, I'll have to chalk this up to wishful thinking.

I have prayed for people who had been afflicted by demons and they were delivered.

So you claim, et cetera. Unfortunately, I've yet to see any compelling evidence of the existence of demons.

I have, however, not been in a situation where I had to drink poison for the sake of the Kingdom of God because of scoffers who know of the same verse that you are referring to and use it against God's evangelists in communist countries where they still kill people for their faith. I know of missionaries who had to drink poison to "prove" the Scriptures to their torturers and who lived to tell of their ordeal.

So you claim. Still no evidence.

It is not our power, but God's power in us as Christians who does the miracles.

Obviously. And God works these miracles through you to save mankind from hellfire, and convert sinners and atheists to His righteous path. So presumably He'd be willing to help you out with a simple challenge (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=206961).

We can't boast about anything we ourselves do.
So to answer your question, no, I don't have such powers.

Of course not. But God is loving and merciful, and wouldn't condemn us skeptics to Hell for want a simple miracle, would He? God works miracles all the time, all we're asking is for a single such miracle under controlled conditions, where we can verify that it is not just another case of luck or natural causes being mistaken for divine intervention. So why not accept the challenge, and pray for the miracle that will make righteous men and women out of us?

[modernPrimitive]

I have, as a matter of fact, prayed for a boy last Wednesday and his neck was healed.
I have prayed for people who had been afflicted by demons and they were delivered.
I have, however, not been in a situation where I had to drink poison for the sake of the Kingdom of God because of scoffers who know of the same verse that you are referring to and use it against God's evangelists in communist countries where they still kill people for their faith. I know of missionaries who had to drink poison to "prove" the Scriptures to their torturers and who lived to tell of their ordeal.
It is not our power, but God's power in us as Christians who does the miracles. We can't boast about anything we ourselves do.
So to answer your question, no, I don't have such powers.

Regards,
Carin Nel

Shows you how powerful your mind is. Attributing it to a higher power is a psychological tool to "subjugate" the ego consciousness to the unconscious.

[aa5874]

Which church was that, and how do you know?
Carin Nel

I used to attend a Pentecostal Church and it was girls or women that would claim to be demon possessed. These 'demonic' episodes would occur at revival meetings and 'holy ghost' sessions, which would include prayer and fastings.

I really didn't know what was happening, except these girls would behave erractically and making strange noises.

[gracebkr]

Did anyone ever see that special on the movie The Exorcist? How all those freak accidents happened during it?

[GenesisNemesis]

Did anyone ever see that special on the movie The Exorcist? How all those freak accidents happened during it?

Things happen. :)

[Carin Nel]

So you claim, and if I believed you, I would immediately convert to your faith. Unfortunately, neck injuries heal all the time so, pending more rigorous testing, I'll have to chalk this up to wishful thinking.
But God is loving and merciful, and wouldn't condemn us skeptics to Hell for want a simple miracle, would He? God works miracles all the time, all we're asking is for a single such miracle under controlled conditions, where we can verify that it is not just another case of luck or natural causes being mistaken for divine intervention. So why not accept the challenge, and pray for the miracle that will make righteous men and women out of us?

Why don't you go to meetings where these things happen and do the tests, speak to the pastors and the people who claim to be healed in stead of joking about it on an atheistic discussion board? At least I have, but have you, or have you just believed what other atheists and journalists said? Be fair to yourself. I can't hurt, can it?

If you really want to find out if demons exist, if prayer can heal the sick, and that signs and wonders do follow thosewho believe as the Bible says, go to those places where the believers claim it happens and see for yourself.
Bill Johnson's Church - http://www.ibethel.org/features//testimonies/index.php?f=testimonies.php
933 college view drive - redding, ca 96003 telephone: (530)246-6000 | facsimile: (530)246-6020 info@ibethel.org
Regards,
Carin Nel

[Yahzi]

Supreme Super-Duper Demon Destroyer, the Great, Mysterious and Sublime Yahzi and his Sacred Patented Baseball Bat of the Holy Reality
After careful consideration of this case, my professional recommendation is...

aluminum.

You just can't get the same whack with wood.

[Yahzi]

Why don't you go to meetings where these things happen and do the tests, speak to the pastors and the people who claim to be healed in stead of joking about it on an atheistic discussion board?
What makes you think we haven't?

Why do you assume we don't have first-hand experience of what we are talking about?

On a possibly unrelated note, do you know what the psychological term "projection" means?

If you really want to find out if demons exist, if prayer can heal the sick, and that signs and wonders do follow those who believe as the Bible says, go to those places where the believers claim it happens and see for yourself.
What, Jesus can only perform on his home turf?

Why don't you invite the Nobel prize committee down there. Or ABC news. Or James Randi. Heck, invite Fox news - they're on your side.

The idea that all of this evidence is easy to obtain, and yet no atheist/scientist has ever bothered to drive to a church and look at it, reveals a depth of ignorance so staggering as to defy description.

Try googling: Peter Popoff, Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart. Just to start.

We atheists have looked. And looked. And looked. Now it's your turn.

[Godless Dave]

Unless they are all making this up to be on TV

And that never happens.

[Godless Dave]

But, again, we're relying on your vague recollection of a show you watched. Do you have any details of the case? A link to the video you saw? A website telling this story? In this day and age, I find it hard to believe a claim like this doesn't have any Internet coverage.

--W@L

How about the date the episode aired?

[Vicious Love]

Why don't you go to meetings where these things happen and do the tests, speak to the pastors and the people who claim to be healed

As Yahzi asked, what makes you think I haven't? 'course, they were all heathen Jews, so you won't be surprised to find out they were frauds, one and all.

in stead of joking about it on an atheistic discussion board?

Who's joking? The challenge is quite serious. Successfully complete it, and every single convert you win over will do absolutely everything in their power to spread the word.

At least I have, but have you, or have you just believed what other atheists and journalists said?

If I believed what journalists say, I'd be convinced there's a demon or a chupacabra around every corner, right next to the terrorist.

Be fair to yourself. I can't hurt, can it?

My thoughts exactly. You claim God will answer prayers to save us from hellfire and spread His word. Demonstrate this. Be fair to us and to yourself.

If you really want to find out if demons exist, if prayer can heal the sick, and that signs and wonders do follow thosewho believe as the Bible says, go to those places where the believers claim it happens and see for yourself.

The beautiful thing about evidence is that you don't have to be surrounded by believers to perceive it. Is there some reason your miracles won't work for unbelievers? I thought half the idea behind them was to convert the infidels.

Bill Johnson's Church - http://www.ibethel.org/features//testimonies/index.php?f=testimonies.php
933 college view drive - redding, ca 96003 telephone: (530)246-6000 | facsimile: (530)246-6020 info@ibethel.org

There's a reason (http://tibetanfoundation.org/products/testimonials.php) hard evidence (http://kabbalah.suite101.com/blog.cfm/testimonials_from_north_america) in a controlled (http://adrienne.smugmug.com/John%20of%20God/163595) environment is preferable (http://www.kabbalah-corner.com/testimonials.asp) to testimonials (http://www.pranichealing.org/intlmd/testimonials.htm) from believers (http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/tsos/sos-21.html).

[WWJD4aKlondikeBar]

What makes you think we haven't [gone and obeserved and tested]?

Why do you assume we don't have first-hand experience of what we are talking about?

On a possibly unrelated note, do you know what the psychological term "projection" means?

The idea that all of this evidence is easy to obtain, and yet no atheist/scientist has ever bothered to drive to a church and look at it, reveals a depth of ignorance so staggering as to defy description.

Try googling: Peter Popoff, Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart. Just to start.

We atheists have looked. And looked. And looked. Now it's your turn.No fuckin' shit, dude! Beautifully put. :cool:

My parents were always very churchy and are now ordained ministers so the idea that I haven't "go[ne] to meetings where these things happen and do[ne] the tests, sp[oken] to the pastors and the people who claim to be healed in stead of joking about it on an atheistic discussion board?" Well, that's just a run-on sentence that I find insulting and ignorant. I know that some atheists join theists in the strawman practice of imagining the worst possible things about people they disagree with, perhaps in order to make dividing from them feel more ideologically centered and "correct". And to be sure, there are theists who can manage to be objective and reasonable to the point of true introspection.

We call them "deconverts". ;)

Let me triple-dog dare you, Carin Nel, to google Peter Popoff, Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson and Jimmy Swaggart. Let me suggest that your search include the top few youtube results of each man.

[joedad]

Why don't you go to meetings where these things happen and do the tests, speak to the pastors and the people who claim to be healed in stead of joking about it on an atheistic discussion board? At least I have, but have you, or have you just believed what other atheists and journalists said? Be fair to yourself. I can't hurt, can it?

If you really want to find out if demons exist, if prayer can heal the sick, and that signs and wonders do follow thosewho believe as the Bible says, go to those places where the believers claim it happens and see for yourself.
Bill Johnson's Church - http://www.ibethel.org/features//testimonies/index.php?f=testimonies.php
933 college view drive - redding, ca 96003 telephone: (530)246-6000 | facsimile: (530)246-6020 info@ibethel.org
Regards,
Carin NelThose titles are too much. Religion can be quite entertaining, which accounts for its sometime popularity. There is no religion without an audience.

[Carin Nel]

Who's joking? The challenge is quite serious. Successfully complete it, and every single convert you win over will do absolutely everything in their power to spread the word.

Not true. I know of many who were healed miraculously of cancer and other diseases, who, after a year or two, forgot Who healed them, and turned back to a godless life. Signs and wonders do not always convince people, as you very well know! The ability to heal is not given to believers to convince people to become christians and save them from hell. The reason God gives believers the power to perform miracles is for service to others.


You claim God will answer prayers to save us from hellfire and spread His word. Demonstrate this. Be fair to us and to yourself.

I did not claim that God heals people to save them from hellfire, because that is a lie. You may think so, but it is not the reason why He heals people. He heals people to make His glory and power known to them without expecting anything in return. Only those who believe that He can heal will be able to pray for sick people with success, because God says in His Word that only those that believe will be able to heal the sick, drive out demons, raise the dead. When the believer has any doubt whatsoever whether it's the will of God for a person to be healed, the sick will not be healed.
I have prayed for an unbeliever oustside of a church environment and that person got healed instantly. He could not believe what had happened to him, because the pain was gone immediately and he had full movement of his neck where he could not move it at all a moment before.

Believers don't need a church environment to perform miracles. Many of the healings take place in Walmart, bars, shopping malls etc.
The miracles that happened in the Houston Dome where the Katrina victoms were housed, are too incredible to mention here. Bill Johnson's youth team went there to pray for the sick and the needy. A guy just happened to walk past them without knowing they were praying for someone else, felt a tingling, burning sensation in his knee which had been operated on a few weeks before, and the pain left his knee and it was healed completely.

The beautiful thing about evidence is that you don't have to be surrounded by believers to perceive it. Is there some reason your miracles won't work for unbelievers? I thought half the idea behind them was to convert the infidels.

No, as I said, it is because God loves all people that He wants them healed, not only infidels. It is not to get them saved that He heals them, but because He loves them. As I said, He knows signs and wonders will never convince people. He does not expect anything in return. His love is unconditional.

Regards,
Carin Nel

[pob14]

Do you have any details of the case? A link to the video you saw? A website telling this story? In this day and age, I find it hard to believe a claim like this doesn't have any Internet coverage.

--W@L

The video is on ABC's website (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3147766&page=1). Some notes on a single viewing (many of them along the lines of Jaggers' post above):

1) There are no before or after pictures of any of the bite marks or other bruises.

2) The entire thing consists statements from the woman's daughter and a "psychic investigator" who is writing a book about the incident.

3) The woman went through sixteen exorcisms. I wonder if the priests were doing it wrong, or if the demon was just way too strong for God. :devil1:

4) The Vatican did not approve the exorcism, suggesting that somebody in the chain of command didn't think they had a case of possession there.

5) They interviewed an old priest who claimed to have performed ten or twelve exorcisms every day for many years. And you think you take a lot of crap at your job . . . .

6) They did show some video that purported to be of an exorcism; I wasn't sure the video was of this exorcism. They were talking about a Paulist Press documentary on exorcisms that was being filmed, and kept conflating that with this incident, to the extent that I was never sure whether the Paulists filmed this incident or not, or even which they were talking about when.

I agree with Jaggers; there was nothing convincing at all about this show.

[Carin Nel]

There is no religion without an audience.
Maybe your religion, yes, but then Christians have a relationship with Someone, not a religion. We don't need an audience at all!!
Regards,
Carin Nel

[Vicious Love]

Not true. I know of many who were healed miraculously of cancer and other diseases,

You have some sort of evidence that their recoveries were "miraculous"? People do recover from cancer, you know.

who, after a year or two, forgot Who healed them, and turned back to a godless life.

Possibly because they had no evidence that it was prayer that had healed them.

Signs and wonders do not always convince people, as you very well know!

Signs are in the eye of the beholder. Every mumbling nutjob on a street corner sees signs from the shadow government in the changing patterns of traffic lights. Miracles are unambiguous. Winning the lottery is coincidental. Regrowing a lost limb is miraculous.

The ability to heal is not given to believers to convince people to become christians and save them from hell. The reason God gives believers the power to perform miracles is for service to others.

If you say so. Can't fathom why God would want to serve others only to damn them to Hell. Isn't salvation a kind of service?

I did not claim that God heals people to save them from hellfire, because that is a lie. You may think so, but it is not the reason why He heals people. He heals people to make His glory and power known to them without expecting anything in return.

You seem to be splitting semantic hairs here. How is God providing evidence of His existence any different from God making His glory and power known to someone? And why does God only seem to make His power known through miracles which can be mistaken for perfectly natural events? Winning the lottery, recovering from cancer, surviving an earthquake or some other disaster, none of these require God, all of these are assumed to be miracles without evidence that this is the case. Now, an amputee regrowing a limb, that's a miracle. As is being able to guess a 30-digit number. There's no mistaking those events for anything else.

Instead of discreetly altering the probabilities of perfectly mundane events, why doesn't God just manifest an angel on national TV, or a booming voice from the heavens for all to hear (and not solely for the benefit of a single person with all the outward signs of mental illness, and no evidence at all that what he heard was really the voice of God, and not hallucination)? Why doesn't he inspire His followers to guess a simple 30-digit number?

Only those who believe that He can heal will be able to pray for sick people with success, because God says in His Word that only those that believe will be able to heal the sick, drive out demons, raise the dead. When the believer has any doubt whatsoever whether it's the will of God for a person to be healed, the sick will not be healed.

Well, do you doubt that God wants to impress His power and glory upon us? Do you doubt that guessing someone's number would be a suitable display of such power, less deniable than all the recovered cancer patients in the world, combined?

I have prayed for an unbeliever oustside of a church environment and that person got healed instantly. He could not believe what had happened to him, because the pain was gone immediately and he had full movement of his neck where he could not move it at all a moment before.

Not that anecdotes of this sort count for much one way or another, but do people always recover fully and instantly the moment you pray for them? Or do they sometimes recover instantly, sometimes slowly, and sometimes only partially, but you tend to focus on the ones whose recoveries happen to coincide with your prayer?

Believers don't need a church environment to perform miracles. Many of the healings take place in Walmart, bars, shopping malls etc.

Can believers heal lost limbs? I suppose that's a viable challenge, too, if God won't let his believes guess numbers.

The miracles that happened in the Houston Dome where the Katrina victoms were housed, are too incredible to mention here.

I suppose surviving a hurricane is vaguely miraculous (statistics be damned). But you know what's even more miraculous? Creating a hurricane in the first place, and sending it to selectively kill off about 1,800 sinners, while selectively preserving the remainder of the population via a series of smaller miracles. And you know what's even more miraculous than that? Praising God for saving people from the hurricane, but not blaming Him for sending the hurricane to kill them in the first place. I would advise you leave this topic be before things get needlessly ugly; many board members here take to this sort of thing a lot less kindly than myself.

Bill Johnson's youth team went there to pray for the sick and the needy. A guy just happened to walk past them without knowing they were praying for someone else, felt a tingling, burning sensation in his knee which had been operated on a few weeks before, and the pain left his knee and it was healed completely.

I know a guy who knows a guy who was abducted by aliens.

No, as I said, it is because God loves all people that He wants them healed, not only infidels. It is not to get them saved that He heals them, but because He loves them.

And yet He refuses to provide a simple 30-digit number which would be the evidence that would save them from Hell. Your god has a strange notion of love.

As I said, He knows signs and wonders will never convince people.

He knows wrong, then. As do his followers. An unambiguous miracle is all I need. The resurrection of the long-dead, the regeneration of an amputee's limb, a voice from the heavens, a 30-digit number, anything remotely objective. But no, God doesn't do that anymore, apparently.

He does not expect anything in return. His love is unconditional.

In return for what? Not providing us with a single piece of tangible evidence of His existence? Nothing gets you nothing.

[Vicious Love]

Maybe your religion, yes, but then Christians have a relationship with Someone, not a religion. We don't need an audience at all!!

Which would explain why no religion is as well-known for its proselytism as Christianity.

[graymouser]

Not true. I know of many who were healed miraculously of cancer and other diseases, who, after a year or two, forgot Who healed them, and turned back to a godless life. Signs and wonders do not always convince people, as you very well know! The ability to heal is not given to believers to convince people to become christians and save them from hell. The reason God gives believers the power to perform miracles is for service to others.
How do you know that God healed these people and not Satan? Here's a hypothetical proposition for you.

You do not follow the one, true religion. (I am deliberately avoiding naming religions here.) Not following the one, true religion will result in your being condemned to Hell forever. If you see people "miraculously" cured of cancer, this will cause you to continue to believe in your false religion and not in the one, true religion. Satan exists, is capable of curing people, and wishes you to be condemned to Hell. It is possible that Satan cured these people in order to keep you believing in your religion and condemn you to Hell.

There are several possible responses to this.

1. You can claim that you do follow the one, true religion. However, any attestation you can make of this - scripture, a personal feeling, personal observation of miracles - can be explained by the fact that Satan has created a clever trap in order to doom you to Hell as well as your preferred explanation (that they are proof that your religion is true).

2. You can deny the possibility that Satan is working to send you to Hell, but it's actually a certainty based on the mutual incompatibility of several religions, that there is at least one person in the world who believes -- on no less evidence than you believe in your religion -- that your religion is a Satanic trap designed to fool you into believing in a false religion and so damning yourself to Hell.

3. You can deny the supernatural altogether, but that's a severe problem for your interpretation of miracles.

Your interpretation is no more or less reasonable than the interpretation that Satan is working to send you to Hell. That you will prefer your version is obvious, but as an outsider, given the multitude of religions in the world, I have to say that statistically speaking, the Satan explanation probably has better odds. Now, I don't believe that Satan is working to send you to Hell, but I do believe that your belief that God and not Satan is responsible for your religious beliefs and experiences is irrational.

[notasheep]

I know of many who were healed miraculously of cancer and other diseases, who, after a year or two, forgot Who healed them, and turned back to a godless life.
Now, that sounds almost miraculous. People get miraculously healed (no doctors involved, right?) and then forget.

Only those who believe that He can heal will be able to pray for sick people with success...
I have prayed for an unbeliever oustside of a church environment and that person got healed instantly. He could not believe what had happened to him, because the pain was gone immediately and he had full movement of his neck where he could not move it at all a moment before.

So, tell me why you, and the other true believers, don't head on down to your local hospitals, and clear them out?

A guy just happened to walk past them without knowing they were praying for someone else, felt a tingling, burning sensation in his knee which had been operated on a few weeks before, and the pain left his knee and it was healed completely.

Nice of you to provide the refutation of your claim in your statement.

No, as I said, it is because God loves all people that He wants them healed, not only infidels. It is not to get them saved that He heals them, but because He loves them. He does not expect anything in return. His love is unconditional.

So we can expect AIDS, cancer, etc. to cease to exist anytime now, right?

[RAFH]

Maybe your religion, yes, but then Christians have a relationship with Someone, not a religion. We don't need an audience at all!!
Regards,
Carin Nel

Uh, maybe it hasn't dawned on you Carin, but ... ...

You are the audience.

[Cheese]

Not sure if this was mentioned elsewhere...

Why is it that Demons only invade the religious?
Have any Atheists or those of the Islamic, Buddhist or other religion been inflicted with Demonic possession?:huh: Is it the same as the Christian variety of possession?

There are days I think the Demon has invaded my body...but I find that a good BM usually takes care of that feeling.

I also wonder...how much of Demon possession is made up by the Church(es) and their flocks to gain numbers...work on peoples fears of the devil? Do you suppose that the Church thru a litany of numbered companies sponsors demonic movies for this purpose? :rolleyes:...nah...Im just possessed!! LOL :wave:

[RAFH]

Originally Posted by Vicious Love

Who's joking? The challenge is quite serious. Successfully complete it, and every single convert you win over will do absolutely everything in their power to spread the word.
Not true.

What's not true? Are you stating VL and associates are lying? How can you know this in advance of testing it? You may know of others who may have reneged on a similar promise but you have not even entered into the agreement and one of your reasons is the other party is lying about fulfilling their obligations. Not a good way to do business, not a good way to live and certainly not very xian. You have no knowledge whatsoever of whether or not VL and associates will honor their pledges, so you are falsely accusing them. That's terribly disrespectful and potentially actionable.

I know of many who were healed miraculously of cancer and other diseases, who, after a year or two, forgot Who healed them, and turned back to a godless life. Signs and wonders do not always convince people, as you very well know! The ability to heal is not given to believers to convince people to become christians and save them from hell. The reason God gives believers the power to perform miracles is for service to others.

First off, what do this have to do with the offer made by VL, etal? You are making assertions about other people, not the VL, etal. As noted above, you can not have such knowledge of their intents. Your statements are libelous and potentially actionable and, at the very least, certainly unxian.

Next, again, this is a simple assertion, nothing more. There is no reason to give it any more credence than any other statement, indeed less as it comes from a probable libeler. Do you have the names and addresses of these people? If not, your assertions regarding them can be dismissed.



Originally Posted by Vicious Love
You claim God will answer prayers to save us from hellfire and spread His word. Demonstrate this. Be fair to us and to yourself.
I did not claim that God heals people to save them from hellfire, because that is a lie. You may think so, but it is not the reason why He heals people. He heals people to make His glory and power known to them without expecting anything in return. Only those who believe that He can heal will be able to pray for sick people with success, because God says in His Word that only those that believe will be able to heal the sick, drive out demons, raise the dead. When the believer has any doubt whatsoever whether it's the will of God for a person to be healed, the sick will not be healed.

Read the two underlined portions and then explain how they are at odds with each other.

I have prayed for an unbeliever oustside of a church environment and that person got healed instantly. He could not believe what had happened to him, because the pain was gone immediately and he had full movement of his neck where he could not move it at all a moment before.

Do you have contact information for this person so we can check to see if your statements are valid? All we have is your unsupported assertion.

I assert you owe me $100,000. Pay up.

Believers don't need a church environment to perform miracles. Many of the healings take place in Walmart, bars, shopping malls etc.
The miracles that happened in the Houston Dome where the Katrina victoms were housed, are too incredible to mention here.

Do you have specifics on these healings? Who did them, when and where, who was healed, what were they suffering from, how can they be contacted to verify your assertions. Because that's all you have offered, assertions and you are known to be a potential libeler, a form of liar. There is no reason to give any statement you make any credibility.

Bill Johnson's youth team went there to pray for the sick and the needy. A guy just happened to walk past them without knowing they were praying for someone else, felt a tingling, burning sensation in his knee which had been operated on a few weeks before, and the pain left his knee and it was healed completely.

Got evidence?

That seems to be the big hole in your whole schtick. A total and complete lack of evidence. And given you have potentially libeled someone, a form of lying, you have no credibility. Even if you did, you would still have to provide evidence. Until you do, your assertions are meaningless.

[RAFH]

Not sure if this was mentioned elsewhere...

Why is it that Demons only invade the religious?
Have any Atheists or those of the Islamic, Buddhist or other religion been inflicted with Demonic possession?:huh: Is it the same as the Christian variety of possession?

There are days I think the Demon has invaded my body...but I find that a good BM usually takes care of that feeling.

I also wonder...how much of Demon possession is made up by the Church(es) and their flocks to gain numbers...work on peoples fears of the devil? Do you suppose that the Church thru a litany of numbered companies sponsors demonic movies for this purpose? :rolleyes:...nah...Im just possessed!! LOL :wave:

Oh yah, we atheists have a special form of possession we believe in, its called theism and belief in unsupported claims. Its about the worst and most difficult form of possession known to man.

[show_no_mercy]

Funny how atheists never get attacked/killed by demons

[HaysooChreesto!]

I did not claim that God heals people to save them from hellfire, because that is a lie. You may think so, but it is not the reason why He heals people. He heals people to make His glory and power known to them without expecting anything in return. Only those who believe that He can heal will be able to pray for sick people with success, because God says in His Word that only those that believe will be able to heal the sick, drive out demons, raise the dead. When the believer has any doubt whatsoever whether it's the will of God for a person to be healed, the sick will not be healed.
I have prayed for an unbeliever oustside of a church environment and that person got healed instantly. He could not believe what had happened to him, because the pain was gone immediately and he had full movement of his neck where he could not move it at all a moment before.

Hmm... Carin, my mom died a little over two months ago after a two year bout with large cell lung cancer. She never smoked a cigarette in her life, she used to run marathons and was racing jet skis competitively at age 63. She was a lifelong Christian as well. The last month of her life my aunt and uncle came and stayed with us in order to care for my mom. They prayed and prayed. Three different pastors came over and my mom even had this fire and brimstone asshole perform the eulogy at her funeral (I think if she'd known, she would have chosen someone else).

My mother was the kindest, warmest person I've ever known. My kids adored her, everyone who knew my mom instantly liked her. She had a circle of friends she maintained since kindergarten.

So tell me Carin, where was Jesus? Are my entire family, all Christian, backsliding sinners, not worthy of God's help? Was my mom, a lifelong believer, secretly some kind of atheist like me? What did my mom do so wrong to have her life taken so cruelly, to have it cut so short? Literally hundreds of people prayed for her but she still died well before she should have. What happened, Carin?

No, as I said, it is because God loves all people that He wants them healed, not only infidels.
Regards,
Carin Nel

How can you say such things and sleep at night?

I'm not bitter at your god or anything else like that because I don't believe in it in the first place---it would be like being angry at Santa when Xmas presents don't arrive by themselves Christmas morning.

When the diagnosis came down it hit me hard but I dealt with the reality that my mom was going to die. Others prayed, I thought and reflected. I helped take care of my mom and saw things that no parent ever wants their child to see; but it was my honor to do so. I will remember her fondly until the die I pass.

What does bother me though is the lies and insulting garbage that's somehow passes for comfort for so many people. "God loves all people..." How, when that statement is contradicted by cold, hard reality every minute of every day, do you still believe?

Sometimes people get better Carin. Sometimes they don't. No supernatural deity has anything to do with it.

[gracebkr]

Not sure if this was mentioned elsewhere...

Why is it that Demons only invade the religious?
Have any Atheists or those of the Islamic, Buddhist or other religion been inflicted with Demonic possession?:huh: Is it the same as the Christian variety of possession?

There are days I think the Demon has invaded my body...but I find that a good BM usually takes care of that feeling.

I also wonder...how much of Demon possession is made up by the Church(es) and their flocks to gain numbers...work on peoples fears of the devil? Do you suppose that the Church thru a litany of numbered companies sponsors demonic movies for this purpose? :rolleyes:...nah...Im just possessed!! LOL :wave:

I found Jewish, Islamic and Hindu exorcisms at wikipedia here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism

[modernPrimitive]

Yip. As far as I know exorcism became prevalant in Christianity during the middle ages. It was used long before that and can even be traced back to tribal religion / psycho-spiritual practices. Similar to magickal banishing rituals just a lot less "directed" and therefore less powerful.

[sourdough]

Hi there, I recently watched 20/20 on ABC about Excorcisms. I really do not know how to explain this one; The girl posessed had no psychological disorders, and before this event occured, she claimed that chairs, along with other furniture were toppled over by some "invisible force". There were also bite marks along her back, places she could not reach herself. After the priest gave her an excorcism, she had no further problems. Can anyone explain this? I'm not sure how. :P
until they perform this kinda "magic" tricks with James Randi (www.randi.org )being present, I shall remain very skeptical

[tjakey]

[QUOTE=Carin Nel;4447524]I have, as a matter of fact, prayed for a boy last Wednesday and his neck was healed.

Really? Then what the hell are you doing sitting in front of a computer? You should be down at the local hospital working your way through the children's ward. You won't be though, because like every other person who claims to be a "healer" you are full... (giving the moderators a break.)

Regards.

[ForensicAtheist]

I think in all of this we're missing something very important. The OP asks "can anyone explain this?", except that when everyone started jumping for explanations people forgot that the person making the claim is required to provide hard physical evidence that is able to be replicated in a controlled environment before someone should have to try to "explain" anything. I see nothing that meets this criteria and therefore everything after it is a pointless discourse about the philosophy of fraud and narcissism.

Skeptics don't forget! Claims require evidence, if none is provided then the claim can be disregarded until evidence is presented...otherwise it inadvertently gives some credibility and validity to bullshit claims by stating that they require explanation as if they have some merit.

[Writer@Large]

The video is on ABC's website (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3147766&page=1).
Well, that was completely pointless. Unsavedsinner, did you actually find that at all convincing?!

--W@L

[sometimesisquint]

You have some sort of evidence that their recoveries were "miraculous"? People do recover from cancer, you know.

More often than not it seems. (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/jun2004/nci-24.htm)

Although you have to take into account that a majority of people who get cancer of one form or another are 65 years of age and older...they're going to die sooner rather than later, and yet, the survival rates for cancer victims 5 years after diagnosis is surprisingly high. It gets even higher when the victim is younger (due to better health and immune systems I would gather...not really "healing" from Jeebus).

This doesn't mean that Cancer is suddenly easy to heal or cure...but it isn't a certain death sentence as some would believe.

[aa5874]

I have prayed for an unbeliever oustside of a church environment and that person got healed instantly. He could not believe what had happened to him, because the pain was gone immediately and he had full movement of his neck where he could not move it at all a moment before.

When you heal an amputee, then I can start to take you seriously. These pain healings are nothing to talk about, I can never know if the unbeliever had pain in the first place.

[RAFH]

Names, addresses, telephones, dates, circumstances.

Start putting reality to your claims Carin. Start putting some calcium on those asserted bones and some protein into your claimed muscles. You are way short on flesh and blood.

Who knows, maybe you cured a million fantasy subjects. Hey, I did two million just now. I'm shooting for 100,000,000 subjects, but I am not sure I can actually imagine that many people.

[Writer@Large]

Who knows, maybe you cured a million fantasy subjects. Hey, I did two million just now.
RAFH has a point, Carin. All you're doing is making claims on a messageboard. Why should be believe you, or be convinced by your claims? To state it plainly, you are an anonymous poster on a public messageboard, making claims too vague to be checked. I could easily post a similar claim, and mine would have the same level of truth, based on evidence and source, as yours. What makes your claim any more true than mine?

--W@L

[pob14]

The miracles that happened in the Houston Dome where the Katrina victoms were housed, are too incredible to mention here.

<spits Pepsi all over keyboard and monitor>

A new winner: most unintentionally funny post on the internet. I don't know how I missed it before. (Well, yes I do, I was paying attention to the exorcism-related posts.)

[Carin Nel]

You have some sort of evidence that their recoveries were "miraculous"? People do recover from cancer, you know.
You may think that we are stupid, but we are not that stupid! Of course I won't put my neck out and make wild statements like that without having made sure they were true! Don't you think I know that people will accuse me of this? Of course I'm sure that these cases were divine healings and not just recoveries that happened by chance. Can a broken bone, sticking through flesh and skin, causing severe pain, bleeding and a gaping wound, just pull back into place and be healed , wound and all, just by chance?
Can club feet grow straight in a matter of minutes by chance?
Can a severe skin disorder heal before one's eyes by chance?
Can a cancerous growth fall off someone's breast by chance?
Can a leg that is much shorter than the other one suddenly grow longer untill it is perfectly just as long as the other one, causing back pain to disappear?
Can HIV Aids be cured unless by a miracle?
Can a Down Syndrome baby, tested positive by a docter in the mother's womb, be cured by chance?


Possibly because they had no evidence that it was prayer that had healed them.
Not true. It is because many people forget to be thankful and take their blessings for granted.
It is recorded in the Bible that Jesus healed ten lepers and only one turned back to thank Him.



Signs are in the eye of the beholder. Every mumbling nutjob on a street corner sees signs from the shadow government in the changing patterns of traffic lights. Miracles are unambiguous. Winning the lottery is coincidental. Regrowing a lost limb is miraculous.

Very true! And we see many of those. We see deaf hear and blind see and lame walk.


Can't fathom why God would want to serve others only to damn them to Hell. Isn't salvation a kind of service?

God damns nobody to hell, except Satan and his demons. Jesus came to save EVERYBODY. Satan takes people to hell with him if they follow him. He has already lost the war at Calvary. Now he is trying to win battles with individuals.

You seem to be splitting semantic hairs here. How is God providing evidence of His existence any different from God making His glory and power known to someone?

His existence is obvious enough to all who want to see. His glory and power is demonstrated through miracles and signs and wonders.

Instead of discreetly altering the probabilities of perfectly mundane events, why doesn't God just manifest an angel on national TV

Are you serious? Would you believe it? I don't think so!!

..or a booming voice from the heavens for all to hear (and not solely for the benefit of a single person with all the outward signs of mental illness, and no evidence at all that what he heard was really the voice of God, and not hallucination)? Why doesn't he inspire His followers to guess a simple 30-digit number?

Umm...wouldn't work either! It did'nt work with the Israelites (over and over again) and it wouldn't work for this generation.
But if you ask Him, He may talk to you in a still, small voice and you will recognise Him. He does that all the time with people who believe He exists.
Sometimes He even speaks to unbelievers and they immediately recognise His voice. It happens all the time! It may happen to you. He knows how to deal with each one individually, because not everyone will react the same way in every circumstance. But I can't speak on His behalf. He just might speak out one day in a thunderous voice for everyone to hear, who knows!

Well, do you doubt that God wants to impress His power and glory upon us?
I know He's notinto showbusiness if that's what you mean. He will never go around showing off His power to impress us and have fun with the universe if that is what you mean. He will heal someone because He hates disease and affliction and through that His power is displayed as well as His love and grace. Never to just bragg.


Do you doubt that guessing someone's number would be a suitable display of such power, less deniable than all the recovered cancer patients in the world, combined?

Guessing someone's number remains just...guessing.
Let's get this straight..this what the evolutionists carry on about - the universe could have come into existence by chance, remember!!!!
No such thing as creation/miracle here, just pure chance!

Not that anecdotes of this sort count for much one way or another, but do people always recover fully and instantly the moment you pray for them? Or do they sometimes recover instantly, sometimes slowly, and sometimes only partially, but you tend to focus on the ones whose recoveries happen to coincide with your prayer?

Always after prayer - immediate recovery for some; some take a day or two (like the cancer growth that started oozing off from the breast and healed completely, wound and all, scar and all)
It happens after prayer - always.
Sometimes a person dos not get healed at all. I do not know why some don't heal, but it does not take away the greatness of the miracles of the ones that do get healed and delivered. There are many things that we as christians must still learn as far as healing is concerned. Sometimes we address the wrong problem, or we doubt our own authority. These are things that maybe you will not understand, but I am being very honest and open-hearted about this to you.
We are all learning in the process.

Can believers heal lost limbs? I suppose that's a viable challenge, too, if God won't let his believes guess numbers.

It has happened before and it will happen again. When someone prays for a challenging problem, like cancer, a lost limb, etc. and it gets healed, that believer will have the faith to pray for that situation again and has reached a new high water mark for himself for the future.
We are still learning to trust in our God-given anointing and authority as believers. Many Christians do not believe that we have been given the anointing and authority to heal and do miracles. That is why they will not experience them, because they will only follow those who believe. You see how important and beneficial faith is to for everyone? Christians as well as non-believers. It carries a benefit that we cannot afford to miss.

I suppose surviving a hurricane is vaguely miraculous (statistics be damned). But you know what's even more miraculous? Creating a hurricane in the first place, and sending it to selectively kill off about 1,800 sinners, while selectively preserving the remainder of the population via a series of smaller miracles. And you know what's even more miraculous than that? Praising God for saving people from the hurricane, but not blaming Him for sending the hurricane to kill them in the first place. I would advise you leave this topic be before things get needlessly ugly; many board members here take to this sort of thing a lot less kindly than myself.
Nothing about a hurricane is miraculous or godly for that matter, even if the law decided to call it an act of God. I wonder why God gets to blame for the bad stuff and does not get credit for the good ones? Not to mention that Satan who is supposed to be the bad guy her, is ignored, or better for him still, his existence denied! Either there is a God and He is good which automatically gives us the opposite, the bad guy, Satan, or there is just us without the miracles and the signs and wonders.
But because I see the signs and wonders with evidence and proof on a regular basis, I know there is a God who hates sickness and disease and therefore wants everybody healed, happy and prosperous-as He says in Scripture"As it is in heaven, so be it on earth." God does not have sickness, therefore he cannot give it. You can only give what you have.
Easy maths for christians: God=good
Satan=bad

An unambiguous miracle is all I need.
I said that you will see it at Bill Johson's Church, so go there if you really want it.

Nothing gets you nothing.
Exactly.

Regards,
Carin Nel

[Cheese]

I said that you will see it at Bill Johson's Church, so go there if you really want it.


Regards,
Carin Nel

Just a stupid question Carin...IF...and this is a BIG if...IF Billy's church by the woods cured all of these people...and IF he continues to do it so well...well...um...dont you think there would be a line 50,000 miles long with sufferers waiting to get cured? Dont you think ABC, NBC, CBS, BBC and every other Television affiliate in the world would be on this like um...stink on Billy's underwear?
Is this a covert operation? Why doesnt Billy simply go to every Hospital he can visit and cure everyone inside? Dont you think THAT would be a real miracle? Can you imagine the headlines?
Yet all we hear is <crickets chirping>.

[Mageth]

Some people believe in demons, some people believe they (or others) can be possessed by demons, some people believe exorcisms are effective at casting demons out of possessed people.

The power of suggestion is strong. A person believes in demons and believes they are possessed by demons. An exorcism is performed, and that person, believing in the efficacy of exorcism, believes the demons have been cast out.

Demons do not have to be real for that to work.

(Add to that the fact that being "demon-possessed" in an environment that believes in demons and possession and exorcism is a real attention-getter - as is getting 'em cast out of you...there's a strong psychological urge for the whole process...the environment enables the "possessed" person).

[Mageth]

Originally Posted by Carin Nel
The miracles that happened in the Houston Dome where the Katrina victoms were housed, are too incredible to mention here.

Were you there in the Astrodome? My sister was...as a volunteer social worker (she's a licensed social worker). I don't recall her reporting on any such "incredible God miracles". Well, there were many "miracles" of the mundane (and human-performed) kind...e.g., she and others working hard to reunite separated families. Shallowly giving "God" the credit for the human effort that she and others poured into helping the refugees is, to me, quite disturbing.

My sister has some tales of "miracles", all right, incredible miracles, but reportable miracles, and miracles that don't need a God to explain. Miracles of human compassion.

[DMC]

Perhaps it's been mentioned. I skimmed through the responses and didn't see it, so if it's been addressed already, I apologize.

Why would a demon feel the need to topple a chair? Isn't that "too vulgar a display of power"? Seriously though, isn't it Hollywoodish to think a demon would do such things?

I have come to the conclusion that there must be several different gods and several different devils, as it seems each religion has their own form of each and the proof for them are so solid (eye witnesses) as to be irrefutable.

Catholics have stigmata (proven), pentecostals have glossolia (tongues, again I have personally witnessed this therefore it's true), other xtians have excorcisms (as have been witnessed on television, ergo true). There are many others that I cannot mention because I don't feel like looking them up, but these three will suffice to make my point.

If evil is a posssession, then humans are, by default, good. That goes completely against the "original sin" concept where each of us must ask for forgiveness prior to our deaths. This is unless humans only reach a higher level of evil through possession.

Basically, why even question if it's real or not? Question why should it even be considered. The evidence required to convince some seems to be much greater than that required to convince others. For the latter, it seems they are teetering on the edge of every alternative explanation, just waiting to be pushed by the slightest wind of suggestion (or demon, whichever floats your boat).

[DMC]

Just a stupid question Carin...IF...and this is a BIG if...IF Billy's church by the woods cured all of these people...and IF he continues to do it so well...well...um...dont you think there would be a line 50,000 miles long with sufferers waiting to get cured? Dont you think ABC, NBC, CBS, BBC and every other Television affiliate in the world would be on this like um...stink on Billy's underwear?
Is this a covert operation? Why doesnt Billy simply go to every Hospital he can visit and cure everyone inside? Dont you think THAT would be a real miracle? Can you imagine the headlines?
Yet all we hear is <crickets chirping>.

No kidding! :notworthy:

St Jude's comes to mind.....

[DMC]

Some people believe in demons, some people believe they (or others) can be possessed by demons, some people believe exorcisms are effective at casting demons out of possessed people.

The power of suggestion is strong. A person believes in demons and believes they are possessed by demons. An exorcism is performed, and that person, believing in the efficacy of exorcism, believes the demons have been cast out.

Demons do not have to be real for that to work.

(Add to that the fact that being "demon-possessed" in an environment that believes in demons and possession and exorcism is a real attention-getter - as is getting 'em cast out of you...there's a strong psychological urge for the whole process...the environment enables the "possessed" person).

Munchausen by Clergy...

:D

[Jaggers]

You may think that we are stupid, but we are not that stupid! Of course I won't put my neck out and make wild statements like that without having made sure they were true! Don't you think I know that people will accuse me of this? Of course I'm sure that these cases were divine healings and not just recoveries that happened by chance. Can a broken bone, sticking through flesh and skin, causing severe pain, bleeding and a gaping wound, just pull back into place and be healed , wound and all, just by chance?
Can club feet grow straight in a matter of minutes by chance?
Can a severe skin disorder heal before one's eyes by chance?
Can a cancerous growth fall off someone's breast by chance?
Can a leg that is much shorter than the other one suddenly grow longer untill it is perfectly just as long as the other one, causing back pain to disappear?
Can HIV Aids be cured unless by a miracle?
Can a Down Syndrome baby, tested positive by a docter in the mother's womb, be cured by chance?
Well, given that we're still only working with an effectively anonymous and nonspecific anecdote off the internet, this post amounts to: "You should believe my [unsubstantiated] claims precisely because they are so extarordinary...I would be a fool to attest to things so outrageous if they weren't true!" :rolleyes:

i'm going to go way out on a limb here and speak for everybody when I say: Still underwhelmed.

[Mageth]

I've had people I know make incredible claims of healings like the ones Carin Nel made above, and offer them as proof to me.

I've asked them for full medical reports, writeups in medical journals, etc. that could be used to corroborate their anecdotes.

So far, nada.

(I find the shorter leg growing longer anecdote particularly amusing...that's a quite common "healing" that's claimed by faith-healer charlatans)

[Coleslaw]

I've had people I know make incredible claims of healings like the ones Carin Nel made above, and offer them as proof to me.

I've asked them for full medical reports, writeups in medical journals, etc. that could be used to corroborate their anecdotes.

So far, nada.

(I find the shorter leg growing longer anecdote particularly amusing...that's a quite common "healing" that's claimed by faith-healer charlatans)

Strictly speaking, Carin Nel did not make claims of healings. She asked a series of questions Can a broken bone, sticking through flesh and skin, causing severe pain, bleeding and a gaping wound, just pull back into place and be healed , wound and all, just by chance?
Can club feet grow straight in a matter of minutes by chance?
Can a severe skin disorder heal before one's eyes by chance?
Can a cancerous growth fall off someone's breast by chance?
Can a leg that is much shorter than the other one suddenly grow longer untill it is perfectly just as long as the other one, causing back pain to disappear?
Can HIV Aids be cured unless by a miracle?
Can a Down Syndrome baby, tested positive by a docter in the mother's womb, be cured by chance? implying that she has seen all of these healings, but she doesn't actually say she has seen these things.

BTW, regarding the Down Syndrome baby, if the baby tested positive but was born without DS, I wouldn't call that a miracle, I'd call it a false positive. The error rate on amniocentesis is 2%.

[Mageth]

Strictly speaking, Carin Nel did not make claims of healings. She asked a series of questions implying that she has seen all of these healings, but she doesn't actually say she has seen these things.

OK, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt...but whether she's seen them or heard of them, medical reports and journal articles would help her case, no? Where are they?

BTW, regarding the Down Syndrome baby, if the baby tested positive but was born without DS, I wouldn't call that a miracle, I'd call it a false positive. The error rate on amniocentesis is 2%.

Good point.

As to the "skin disorder heal before one's eyes ", humans have a capacity to psychosomatically cause such 'disorders', and to subconsciously 'cure' those disorders, e.g. when the stress causing them is removed, or (gasp) when 'prayed for'. Anecdotally, I was once married to a woman whose abdomen would at times visibly distend, causing her pain (when she was under stress). There was no underlying physical condition causing this (other than possibly some disorder in her brain); it was purely a psychosomatic reaction to stress. Relieve the stress, and the swelling would disappear.

[Sauron]

You may think that we are stupid, but we are not that stupid! Of course I won't put my neck out and make wild statements like that without having made sure they were true! Don't you think I know that people will accuse me of this? Of course I'm sure that these cases were divine healings and not just recoveries that happened by chance. Can a broken bone, sticking through flesh and skin, causing severe pain, bleeding and a gaping wound, just pull back into place and be healed , wound and all, just by chance?
Can club feet grow straight in a matter of minutes by chance?
Can a severe skin disorder heal before one's eyes by chance?
Can a cancerous growth fall off someone's breast by chance?
Can a leg that is much shorter than the other one suddenly grow longer untill it is perfectly just as long as the other one, causing back pain to disappear?
Can HIV Aids be cured unless by a miracle?
Can a Down Syndrome baby, tested positive by a docter in the mother's womb, be cured by chance?

Look, Carin. This isn't rocket science, so I'll make it as simple as possible. You repeating these claims over and over isn't going to convince anyone around here. Only evidence carries any weight; anything else is a waste of time.

SO:

1. First - provide the names, addresses and telephone numbers of such people as you list above. If you don't have any such evidence, then be honest and confess to that.

2. Second, provide the contact information for the doctors involved, both before and after the alleged healings. If you don't have it, then the people claiming the healing will need to be able to show this evidence.

[Carin Nel]

Just a stupid question Carin...IF...and this is a BIG if...IF Billy's church by the woods cured all of these people...and IF he continues to do it so well...well...um...dont you think there would be a line 50,000 miles long with sufferers waiting to get cured? Dont you think ABC, NBC, CBS, BBC and every other Television affiliate in the world would be on this like um...stink on Billy's underwear?
Is this a covert operation? Why doesnt Billy simply go to every Hospital he can visit and cure everyone inside? Dont you think THAT would be a real miracle? Can you imagine the headlines?
Yet all we hear is <crickets chirping>.

Maybe....because there are many like you..?

[Mageth]

Maybe....because there are many like you..?

The Power of God fails when it confronts the almighty Cheese?

[halfarock]

Why don't you go to meetings where these things happen and do the tests, speak to the pastors and the people who claim to be healed in stead of joking about it on an atheistic discussion board? At least I have, but have you, or have you just believed what other atheists and journalists said? Be fair to yourself. I can't hurt, can it?

If you really want to find out if demons exist, if prayer can heal the sick, and that signs and wonders do follow thosewho believe as the Bible says, go to those places where the believers claim it happens and see for yourself.
Bill Johnson's Church - http://www.ibethel.org/features//testimonies/index.php?f=testimonies.php
933 college view drive - redding, ca 96003 telephone: (530)246-6000 | facsimile: (530)246-6020 info@ibethel.org
Regards,
Carin Nel
From http://www.ibethel.org/features//testimonies/index.php?f=testimonies.php&d=308
I want to share with all of you the great things God did today in our Sunday service. There is a well-known guy in La Paz who sells doughnuts and some other pastries in Malecon (the street that runs along the shore). And it was well known that he limped as he walked. Today he came to church for the first time. When the service was over, he came to ask for prayer, and he said he had pain in his right leg and foot, and because of that, he limped. 
We prayed for him, and when I laid my hands on his knee, it cracked. I turned to see his eyes and there were tears. And when I asked, “What's up?” he answered, “The pain is gone!!” 
And he walked around the sanctuary giving thanks to God. Now everyone in town will see him selling doughnuts, but he won’t limp any more! 

There is more.
 A lady in a wheel chair also came to church today for the first time. She suffered from great pain in her hip area, and she couldn't walk. Her son brought her for us to pray for her. So we did when the service was over. Today, one of the children's teachers asked me permission for her class to join the prayer servants at the end of the service. And so they did. So there were regular prayer servants and some children praying for her. Right after the doughnut man was healed, the lady in the wheel chair stood up and walked!!!
 She and her son had tears in their eyes. I came to them and asked what had happened, and her son told me that she had had such pain that she was not able to walk, and now she was walking around the place.
That's great. We want more, Lord, more.

What other proof do you need that faith healing works? It happens all the time in remote regions in places like Bolivia. Makes you wonder why we need doctors and hospitals.

[Carin Nel]

Look, Carin. This isn't rocket science, so I'll make it as simple as possible. You repeating these claims over and over isn't going to convince anyone around here. Only evidence carries any weight; anything else is a waste of time.

SO:

1. First - provide the names, addresses and telephone numbers of such people as you list above. If you don't have any such evidence, then be honest and confess to that.

2. Second, provide the contact information for the doctors involved, both before and after the alleged healings. If you don't have it, then the people claiming the healing will need to be able to show this evidence.




I have given the name of the pastor in whose church the miracles and healings take place. All the outreaches and youth teams are under his covering from his ministry.
All the testimonies and evidence will be provided for you by the staff.
Here are the details once again:

Bill Johnson's Church - http://www.ibethel.org/features//tes...estimonies.php
933 college view drive - redding, ca 96003 telephone: (530)246-6000 | facsimile: (530)246-6020 info@ibethel.org

If you want to experience it with your own eyes, go there.

In Africa, closer to home:

http://www.themaninthesynagogue.org/hiv_aids_healed.html

http://www.themaninthesynagogue.org/anus_cancer.htm

Many of my friends have gone there.


Regards,
Carin Nel

[Mageth]

Originally Posted by Carin Nel
Why don't you go to meetings where these things happen and do the tests, speak to the pastors and the people who claim to be healed in stead of joking about it on an atheistic discussion board? At least I have, but have you, or have you just believed what other atheists and journalists said? Be fair to yourself. I can't hurt, can it?

If you really want to find out if demons exist, if prayer can heal the sick, and that signs and wonders do follow thosewho believe as the Bible says, go to those places where the believers claim it happens and see for yourself.

Been there, done that. Many, many, many times. I'm not convinced at all. Well, I am convinced that "faith healing" and "signs and wonders" is a mixture of charlatinism, hysteria, gullibility, and wish fulfillment. If people believe in miraculous healing, they will see miraculous healing, even when it's not really there.

[halfarock]

…He heals people to make His glory and power known to them without expecting anything in return. Only those who believe that He can heal will be able to pray for sick people with success, because God says in His Word that only those that believe will be able to heal the sick, drive out demons, raise the dead. When the believer has any doubt whatsoever whether it's the will of God for a person to be healed, the sick will not be healed….
Why is it then that many, many, many, many more people have been cured by the advent of modern medicine? Medical researchers and practitioners aren’t exactly known for their religious convictions.
… Many of the healings take place in Walmart,…
Says a lot doesn’t it.

[Sauron]

I have given the name of the pastor in whose church the miracles and healings take place.

You don't have any first-hand evidence, then. You have merely been repeating what you read on a website.

That's what I wanted to know.

[gracebkr]

When you heal an amputee, then I can start to take you seriously. These pain healings are nothing to talk about, I can never know if the unbeliever had pain in the first place.

I know this has got off topic, so since it has already I guess I can contribute here. I have never prayed for an amputee an them be healed physically. I have prayed for soldiers who came home wounded for their emotional wellness. Anyways, I went into premature labor with my son. 25 days before his due date. When I first went into labor they were able to stop it, the next day it started again. My doctor made it very clear to me that in all likeliness he would have to stay in the hospital and this was a serious situation. She warned me about his lungs not being fully developed. I prayed. My husband and I prayed in the hospital. 3 hours later I had him. he weighed 6 lbs and 6 oz. He needed help breathing for the first minute, but then began to cry. He went home with me 2 days later. He was fine. Obviously this could mean nothing, if I never prayed I guess it could have been the same outcome, but that I will never know. The only way to test that theory is to repeat the same scenario with the same pregnancy and the same child. I am happy either way and I do credit God with that blessing. I also met another woman when I was a waitress who had a little girl as early as I had my son, this child was sickly. I don't know if she prayed or not, but that could have been me.

[halfarock]

Funny how atheists never get attacked/killed by demons

Dang it. I was so looking forward to one day having to fight off a demon. Any one interested in buying a demon slaying sword - never used.

[Mageth]

gracebkr, I'm so glad your child was OK.

I'm going to be objective here, and don't mean this in any mean-spirited way:

It is possible that the doctor was wrong, and underestimated the age/weight/development of your baby. That happens.

In any case, suppose God did heal your child:

What should I think of a God who would heal your child because you prayed and not heal the child of the other woman you mentioned (because they didn't pray for it? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't?)

What should I think of a God who would only heal your child if you prayed, and that (presumably, or maybe) wouldn't have healed it if you hadn't prayed?

What's up with a God like that? A God that dishes out healings (sometimes) if one asks him to? A God that would allow a child to be born "sickly" when it was within his power to heal the child, but didn't do so because the child's parents didn't ask him to, or maybe they did ask but didn't ask right or didn't have enough "faith"? A God who heals one child but not another for who knows what reason?

[halfarock]

Several years ago my son was watching a program on FOX about if ghost were real or not. The show was presented in a way that seemed to lean towards ghosts being real. My son got a great idea to prove the whole ghost thing. Late at night, with most of the lights out, he walked through the house, camcorder in hand filming his way along. He then loaded the resultant video into his computer, did some manipulating in one of his graphic programs and whala the next morning he had proof that we had a ghost in our house.

I think that he also has a very convincing video clip of his sister turning her head all the way around as the girl in the movie The Exorcist did. For some reason she just can’t do it in the presence of other people.

With a little effort, I’m sure he can get an amputee’s limb to grow back. Unfortunately the amputee will only get to see it on their TV.

[gracebkr]

gracebkr, I'm so glad your child was OK.

I'm going to be objective here, and don't mean this in any mean-spirited way:

It is possible that the doctor was wrong, and underestimated the age/weight/development of your baby. That happens.

In any case, suppose God did heal your child:

What should I think of a God who would heal your child because you prayed and not heal the child of the other woman you mentioned (because they didn't pray for it? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't?)

What should I think of a God who would only heal your child if you prayed, and that (presumably, or maybe) wouldn't have healed it if you hadn't prayed?

What's up with a God like that? A God that dishes out healings (sometimes) if one asks him to? A God that would allow a child to be born "sickly" when it was within his power to heal the child, but didn't do so because the child's parents didn't ask him to, or maybe they did ask but didn't ask right or didn't have enough "faith"? A God who heals one child but not another for who knows what reason?

You are absolutely right. There is no way to know if it was the doctor's error or God. The only way to test it is to repeat everything identical except the prayer.

I don't know why God deals the hands he deals. I used to think I got dealt a bad hand in life and was angry. I was angry my father died and I was angry my brother is so sick. Then I realized that this didn't happen to me, it happened to them. Am I to be angry for them? Would they want me to harbor anger and sadness over them? Then after I started thinking like this, I started thinking of why them and not me? What made me better? Does this make me better or more important somehow? I am now thinking that I have a purpose for watching them experience this. A lot of people have something bad happen to them or their loved ones and deal with it however they can. Some go and try to change the world, and maybe they don't change the whole world, but the change some people's world. I think that is the reason we all have hardships. We are supposed to do something with our experiences. Also in faith, you believe God is trustworthy and whatever happens, His plan will come full circle and that is why I think some have miracles, some do not. God makes what is supposed to happen happen and let's what is supposed to happen happen. Look at Mark Lunsford and what happened to his poor baby girl by that pervert. He is one of those people who devotes his life to saving children, maybe had he never experienced this others he could not help and ultimately completes many plans for certain lives. It is sad either way, but if you trust and believe in God, you believe his daughter is being taken care of by God and he will meet with her after his job here is done. This is all faith though, and not anything else. I have no proof for any of this, it is my explanation though.

[Mageth]

But you can take "God" out of the above, and be left with life. God is not necessary to explain anything that happens in life. And doesn't actually explain anything!

"God makes what is supposed to happen happen and let's what is supposed to happen happen." That statement has no power, no meaning. Things happen, and whatever happens, through this logic God has his hand in it. But leave out God, and the same things happen!

[gracebkr]

But you can take "God" out of the above, and be left with life. God is not necessary to explain anything that happens in life. And doesn't actually explain anything!

"God makes what is supposed to happen happen and let's what is supposed to happen happen." That statement has no power, no meaning. Things happen, and whatever happens, through this logic God has his hand in it. But leave out God, and the same things happen!

If people are supposed to live, this could explain why they recover from cancer when diagnosed to die. If people are supposed to die, then God would not do anything. (but greet them IMO)

[Mageth]

Yup, but I was asked specifically about God.

Your answer tells us nothing about God. Perhaps something about those that believe in God, but nothing about God.

[gracebkr]

Your answer tells us nothing about God. Perhaps something about those that believe in God, but nothing about God. Sorry I misunderstood your statement and corrected this.

[Mageth]

If people are supposed to live, this could explain why they recover from cancer when diagnosed to die. If people are supposed to die, then God would not do anything. (but greet them IMO)

There is no "explanation" in the above.

How could you detect that someone was supposed to live or supposed to die? By the fact that they lived or died, respectively? Can you not see that that is meaningless, and does not point to the existence of God or God's hand in the matter?

That's a NULL response, with no content, and explains nothing. I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it.

[RAFH]

RAFH has a point, Carin. All you're doing is making claims on a messageboard. Why should be believe you, or be convinced by your claims? To state it plainly, you are an anonymous poster on a public messageboard, making claims too vague to be checked. I could easily post a similar claim, and mine would have the same level of truth, based on evidence and source, as yours. What makes your claim any more true than mine?

--W@L

Wow, I just did another megahealing, not quite sure where and what but I am closing in on that magic 100,000,000 mark. This time it was 78,834,766 healed. I'm kinda pooped out but when my powers are recharged I am going for it. The big 100M. HooBoy, I am healing like a demon. I'm a healing like a bat outa hell.

[RAFH]

You may think that we are stupid, but we are not that stupid! Of course I won't put my neck out and make wild statements like that without having made sure they were true! Don't you think I know that people will accuse me of this? Of course I'm sure that these cases were divine healings and not just recoveries that happened by chance. Can a broken bone, sticking through flesh and skin, causing severe pain, bleeding and a gaping wound, just pull back into place and be healed , wound and all, just by chance?
Can club feet grow straight in a matter of minutes by chance?
Can a severe skin disorder heal before one's eyes by chance?
Can a cancerous growth fall off someone's breast by chance?
Can a leg that is much shorter than the other one suddenly grow longer untill it is perfectly just as long as the other one, causing back pain to disappear?
Can HIV Aids be cured unless by a miracle?
Can a Down Syndrome baby, tested positive by a docter in the mother's womb, be cured by chance?



Not true. It is because many people forget to be thankful and take their blessings for granted.
It is recorded in the Bible that Jesus healed ten lepers and only one turned back to thank Him.





Very true! And we see many of those. We see deaf hear and blind see and lame walk.




God damns nobody to hell, except Satan and his demons. Jesus came to save EVERYBODY. Satan takes people to hell with him if they follow him. He has already lost the war at Calvary. Now he is trying to win battles with individuals.



His existence is obvious enough to all who want to see. His glory and power is demonstrated through miracles and signs and wonders.



Are you serious? Would you believe it? I don't think so!!



Umm...wouldn't work either! It did'nt work with the Israelites (over and over again) and it wouldn't work for this generation.
But if you ask Him, He may talk to you in a still, small voice and you will recognise Him. He does that all the time with people who believe He exists.
Sometimes He even speaks to unbelievers and they immediately recognise His voice. It happens all the time! It may happen to you. He knows how to deal with each one individually, because not everyone will react the same way in every circumstance. But I can't speak on His behalf. He just might speak out one day in a thunderous voice for everyone to hear, who knows!


I know He's notinto showbusiness if that's what you mean. He will never go around showing off His power to impress us and have fun with the universe if that is what you mean. He will heal someone because He hates disease and affliction and through that His power is displayed as well as His love and grace. Never to just bragg.




Guessing someone's number remains just...guessing.
Let's get this straight..this what the evolutionists carry on about - the universe could have come into existence by chance, remember!!!!
No such thing as creation/miracle here, just pure chance!



Always after prayer - immediate recovery for some; some take a day or two (like the cancer growth that started oozing off from the breast and healed completely, wound and all, scar and all)
It happens after prayer - always.
Sometimes a person dos not get healed at all. I do not know why some don't heal, but it does not take away the greatness of the miracles of the ones that do get healed and delivered. There are many things that we as christians must still learn as far as healing is concerned. Sometimes we address the wrong problem, or we doubt our own authority. These are things that maybe you will not understand, but I am being very honest and open-hearted about this to you.
We are all learning in the process.



It has happened before and it will happen again. When someone prays for a challenging problem, like cancer, a lost limb, etc. and it gets healed, that believer will have the faith to pray for that situation again and has reached a new high water mark for himself for the future.
We are still learning to trust in our God-given anointing and authority as believers. Many Christians do not believe that we have been given the anointing and authority to heal and do miracles. That is why they will not experience them, because they will only follow those who believe. You see how important and beneficial faith is to for everyone? Christians as well as non-believers. It carries a benefit that we cannot afford to miss.


Nothing about a hurricane is miraculous or godly for that matter, even if the law decided to call it an act of God. I wonder why God gets to blame for the bad stuff and does not get credit for the good ones? Not to mention that Satan who is supposed to be the bad guy her, is ignored, or better for him still, his existence denied! Either there is a God and He is good which automatically gives us the opposite, the bad guy, Satan, or there is just us without the miracles and the signs and wonders.
But because I see the signs and wonders with evidence and proof on a regular basis, I know there is a God who hates sickness and disease and therefore wants everybody healed, happy and prosperous-as He says in Scripture"As it is in heaven, so be it on earth." God does not have sickness, therefore he cannot give it. You can only give what you have.
Easy maths for christians: God=good
Satan=bad


I said that you will see it at Bill Johson's Church, so go there if you really want it.


Exactly.

Regards,
Carin Nel

I notice the names, addresses, telephone numbers, affliction healed, etc, are missing Carin.

Until you present such confirmations and they can be checked, you are no more credible than any fakir anywhere. The more time passes and the longer the questions remain unanswered, the more suspect you and your claims become.

[RAFH]

Munchausen by Clergy...

:D

SCHAAAAAAZZZZAAAMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

[RAFH]

Well, given that we're still only working with an effectively anonymous and nonspecific anecdote off the internet, this post amounts to: "You should believe my [unsubstantiated] claims precisely because they are so extarordinary...I would be a fool to attest to things so outrageous if they weren't true!" :rolleyes:

i'm going to go way out on a limb here and speak for everybody when I say: Still underwhelmed.

Are you by any chance referring to the itsy-bitsy teensy-weensy limb way down by the roots that is about 1/3" long?

[RAFH]

I've had people I know make incredible claims of healings like the ones Carin Nel made above, and offer them as proof to me.

I've asked them for full medical reports, writeups in medical journals, etc. that could be used to corroborate their anecdotes.

So far, nada.

(I find the shorter leg growing longer anecdote particularly amusing...that's a quite common "healing" that's claimed by faith-healer charlatans)

Shorter leg growing longer? Hey, my wife does that for me all the time, is there some tax break we can claim for her being a faith healer?

[RAFH]

The Power of God fails when it confronts the almighty Cheese?

Perhaps its cheese fortified with iron? Or the cheese acts as wheels for an iron chariot?

[RAFH]

I have given the name of the pastor in whose church the miracles and healings take place. All the outreaches and youth teams are under his covering from his ministry.
All the testimonies and evidence will be provided for you by the staff.
Here are the details once again:

Bill Johnson's Church - http://www.ibethel.org/features//tes...estimonies.php
933 college view drive - redding, ca 96003 telephone: | facsimile: info@ibethel.org

If you want to experience it with your own eyes, go there.

In Africa, closer to home:

http://www.themaninthesynagogue.org/hiv_aids_healed.html

http://www.themaninthesynagogue.org/anus_cancer.htm

Many of my friends have gone there.


Regards,
Carin Nel

In other words, you don't have dididly squat.



You are beginning to look and sound more and more like a fraud the longer you put off supporting your claims and the more you deflect and dissemble.

[RAFH]

I know this has got off topic, so since it has already I guess I can contribute here. I have never prayed for an amputee an them be healed physically. I have prayed for soldiers who came home wounded for their emotional wellness. Anyways, I went into premature labor with my son. 25 days before his due date. When I first went into labor they were able to stop it, the next day it started again. My doctor made it very clear to me that in all likeliness he would have to stay in the hospital and this was a serious situation. She warned me about his lungs not being fully developed. I prayed. My husband and I prayed in the hospital. 3 hours later I had him. he weighed 6 lbs and 6 oz. He needed help breathing for the first minute, but then began to cry. He went home with me 2 days later. He was fine. Obviously this could mean nothing, if I never prayed I guess it could have been the same outcome, but that I will never know. The only way to test that theory is to repeat the same scenario with the same pregnancy and the same child. I am happy either way and I do credit God with that blessing. I also met another woman when I was a waitress who had a little girl as early as I had my son, this child was sickly. I don't know if she prayed or not, but that could have been me.

Oh please. Be serious. As you state: "Obviously this could mean nothing, if I never prayed I guess it could have been the same outcome, but that I will never know."

[RAFH]

Several years ago my son was watching a program on FOX about if ghost were real or not. The show was presented in a way that seemed to lean towards ghosts being real. My son got a great idea to prove the whole ghost thing. Late at night, with most of the lights out, he walked through the house, camcorder in hand filming his way along. He then loaded the resultant video into his computer, did some manipulating in one of his graphic programs and whala the next morning he had proof that we had a ghost in our house.

I think that he also has a very convincing video clip of his sister turning her head all the way around as the girl in the movie The Exorcist did. For some reason she just can’t do it in the presence of other people.

With a little effort, I’m sure he can get an amputee’s limb to grow back. Unfortunately the amputee will only get to see it on their TV.

Well, that's better than nothing at all, isn't it?

[Cheese]

Maybe....because there are many like you..?

Hmmm..now if I was you...or better, Billy himself, I think it would be in my best interest to sell my magic to people like...well...me? I mean think about it...all of us skeptics, unbelievers, some with grossly disfigured members, <not me...perhaps some others here>...or some of us with afflictions like MS, RA or CP. Wouldnt Billy be better off fixin us up so the unbelievers could spread his message to the rest of the heathens? Seriously?
Maybe you should take this message to Billy himself...I think we might be able to dig up an afflicted Atheist from this board to come on down and get healed...and IF he does s/he could sell all of us? What do you say? Why dont you get the right Reverend Billy to come on this message board and offer his service to one of us...no tricks.

[Ghostdog]

Hi there, I recently watched 20/20 on ABC about Excorcisms. I really do not know how to explain this one; The girl posessed had no psychological disorders, and before this event occured, she claimed that chairs, along with other furniture were toppled over by some "invisible force". There were also bite marks along her back, places she could not reach herself. After the priest gave her an excorcism, she had no further problems. Can anyone explain this? I'm not sure how. :P

Of course I can explain it! Obviously the priest solved the child's alcoholic problems or prescribed some Prozac. :)

I don't see any evidence at all for this pathetic practice. And having some Christian tell me they witnessed one doesn't count as a true witness because they are already influenced and are more clouded by their beliefs.

[Cheese]

Perhaps its cheese fortified with iron? Or the cheese acts as wheels for an iron chariot?

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of Cheese"
G.K. Chesterton

[Godless Dave]

I have given the name of the pastor in whose church the miracles and healings take place. All the outreaches and youth teams are under his covering from his ministry.
All the testimonies and evidence will be provided for you by the staff.


Why should we believe them? They have a clear motive to lie.

[Ghostdog]

Yeah getting into heaven requires a lot of sinful behavior these days.

[gracebkr]

There is no "explanation" in the above.

How could you detect that someone was supposed to live or supposed to die? By the fact that they lived or died, respectively? Can you not see that that is meaningless, and does not point to the existence of God or God's hand in the matter?

That's a NULL response, with no content, and explains nothing. I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it.

Don't be sorry, you are being honest. Look, we are all going to die. I detect someone is supposed to live because they are here. I detect someone is supposed to die because they died. You think it is meaningless, I do not. Do you think ever ever ever, 'how did I walk away unscathed?' Has something ever happened to you or someone you know that seems to defy all probabilities? Think of the people on Sept. 11 who were late that morning for misc. reasons. To me that means they are not finished here yet, to you it is a lucky coincidence. I believe there is a purpose for every person on this planet, and when they served it, they die. I believe in an afterlife though, you don't. So to you, this is awful, to me it is a fact we all have to live through, but will be free of pain and sorrow in the next world.

This is faith. There is no way to prove anything I say, so of course it is meaningless when it boils down to it. I was just responding to someone who wants believers to heal amputees through prayer, which is why I brought up my son. There is no way to know why he was fine, I credit it with God. As for the amputees, sometimes we can be healed in other ways.

[gracebkr]

Oh please. Be serious. As you state: "Obviously this could mean nothing, if I never prayed I guess it could have been the same outcome, but that I will never know."

Have you ever read about the development of a fetus? The last thing to develop is their lungs. Almost a month premature, it is nothing less than a miracle he went home on time. I guess you had to be there to see him not cry when he was born and the nurses check his vitals which he wasn't responding to. Then they put the mask over his face for like a minute and he began to cry. It was scary, but he is fine. I guess when it is not your child, it can be taken lightly.

[sometimesisquint]

As for the amputees, sometimes we can be healed in other ways.

There is no medical/scientific documentation of a regeneration of a limb. None. Ever. I don't even know of any folk tales or anecdotal stories like Carin Nel's Superdome and neck pain accounts.This seems inconsistent with biblical teachings regarding god's omnipotent abilities.

So, what other possible "way" could an amputee be healed? Emotional healing and supposed ch