Can you critique my efforts?

[rational dude]

Hi,

I have been talking about evolution on a different board. The thread is here:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion/78482-america-evolution.html

As I note later in the thread, I am not a scientist, simply an interested layman. This is also my first effort at discussing the ToE, although I am an ardent lurker on this IIDB forum.

I post over there as stretch00.

I think that I have done well enough in my efforts, but if somebody better versed that I has few minutes to render an opinion, I would appreciate it.

[TomboyMom]

Wow, that place is tough. Very high concentration of stupidity and ignorance there. You really have to start from scratch. I only got to page 5 so far before my eyes started to hurt.

Anyway, you're saying true stuff, but (so far) it's not getting you very far.

I find that 90% of the people who disagree with ToE are utterly ignorant of what it is, what it says, and what the evidence is. They're usually also ignorant of what science itself is. I usually try to find an opportunity to explain it to them, or create one by finding a post by someone who obviously doesn't have a clue ("If evolution is true, why don't cats give birth to dogs" type thing) and get them to agree to stick around while I explain it to them. Then I take them through a tutorial as if they were in around 5th grade, taking nothing for granted, explaining first just what the theory says on the most basic level. That right there will often win over some lurkers. (Possibly you do this later in the thread.)

Then it's good to find someone who posts that there is no evidence or no proof. After explaining the role that proof has (not) in science, I ask them to agree to stick around while I go through the evidence, and respond to it. The evidence takes pages before you even get to the fossils: nested heirarchy, homologies, vestigial organs, DNA, age of earth, etc. etc. At this point two things happen: all the creationists disappear (evidence is like kryptonite to them) and a couple of lurkers come around or at least stop denying.

All the while, I repeat over and over that creationism is not science, that creationist websites are full of lies (you can offer to let them pick one and you will find a lie on page one) that all biologists use this theory, that evolution is not a religion, and try to get in a bit about the scientific method.

Good luck, will check back when I can stand more stupidity. Someone actually asked why there are still apes!

[RAFH]

I don't see it as so tough. True there are some very serious believers but at least you have some compatriots. Such is life. Seems you are doing a pretty good job considering its a nearly impossible task. I mean, you are trying to take someone with the scientific knowledge and attitude from the early 1800s and bring them up to date in a few paragraphs. Shock treatment might be more effective. You just have to accept the posters most likely won't ever wake up and smell the coffee. However, there are lurkers out there who will.

Your best bets are to go through some of the threads here, I think nearly every issue and question has been done here, check out the IIDB archives and TalkOrigins.org.

Just don't give in to the temptation to over claim. Stick to the facts and work at getting them to stick to the facts.

[TomboyMom]

Still on page 5 and reeling from the sheer ignorance.
Have you pointed out a few times that evolution has nothing to do with Christianity or God, is not incompatible with either, and you are not, nor is modern biology, trying to persuade them to doubt their God? However, if they think believing in God requires them to accept stupid shit like 6 day poofing 6000 years ago, then they've got a choice between giving it up and believing stuff that is just plain wrong. Fortunately for them, it doesn't.

[rational dude]

Thanks for the feedback.

Yes, there is a high degree of absolute ignorance and refusal to see facts laid out in front of people.

Many of my statements are synthesized from here and talkorigins. And The Blind Watchmaker, college texts, etc. I am not a scientist, merely a layman interested in the field. The threads here have been very good at increasing my knowledge of the subject.

Last, I really did not go into it with the expectation of being able to convince any of the creationist posters of anything. If you are going to post on a subject, you most likely feel pretty strongly about it, and are not going to change your mind because of some anonymous guy's comments on a random BB. Writing for the uncommitted lurkers has always been on my mind however.

[Gamera]

Still on page 5 and reeling from the sheer ignorance.
Have you pointed out a few times that evolution has nothing to do with Christianity or God, is not incompatible with either, and you are not, nor is modern biology, trying to persuade them to doubt their God? However, if they think believing in God requires them to accept stupid shit like 6 day poofing 6000 years ago, then they've got a choice between giving it up and believing stuff that is just plain wrong. Fortunately for them, it doesn't.

The Catholics have a doctrine called "invincible ignorance." It applies to many fundis on this topic.

[TomboyMom]

Having read further, you're doing great. I suggest dumbing it down a bit.

You may want to point out to some of the more extremists there, and there are some doozies, that they are rejecting science and the scientific method itself, in which case they may want to stop typing immediately. That is, evolution is biology is science, which either works or it doesn't. If not, their computer is clearly the work of the devil.

[rational dude]

Dumb it down even more??!!?

I have not even used the term nested hierarchies yet.

I do tend to agree with you though. I am describing things at a high school level, and that does seem to be too much for some people.

[TomboyMom]

The average person has no idea what an allele is.

[TomboyMom]

For my penance I read to p. 21 before bedtime. Some thoughts:

Never ever ever let them sidetrack you into a discussion about atheism vs. Christianity. Say over and over again, as many times as necessary, that ToE does not conflict with Christianity and has nothing to say on the subject of whether God exists. If they say anything along the lines of God existing, seize that opportunity to agree heartily that ToE does not, cannot, and does not try to disprove that.

As often happens, they are attacking from the end without understanding the theory at all. They have no clue what it is. I advise: tell them that, offer to explain it to them (the payoff for them, if they still disagree, they will become stronger opponents if they actually understand the theory they are arguing against) and then do so, exactly as you would to a room full of 5th graders. I promise, there will still be some who will struggle to understand.

For example, you can hypo some little creatures, fishies or cute little lizards or whatever. They have babies. The babies are not all the same. A lot of the babies die. Which ones? Anyone? Anyone? That's right, the ones that are slightly less adapted to their environment. Take them through the huge number of generations, each one a little different. Isolate part of the population via flood or landslide or whatever. Another 1000 generations apart. They get more and more different. Then, the kicker, you bring in the somewhat arbitrary nature of the concept of species, that at some point they're so different we call it a new species. Bingo, evolution.

Only after you've thoroughly explained it do you need to start slogging through the evidence. What do you think?