Immigration effects on society

[Hooboy !!]

I purposefully did not include the word "illegal" in the thread title. A disregard for the rule of law is another topic. I am more interested in the effects of immigration on society in general, which should then lead to an understanding of laws regulating immigration.

There are a lot of reasons why an individual or an entire population might seek to emmigrate to another geographical location: natural disaster, war, economics, etc... It is difficult to find fault with any of these motivations and to not feel empathy. However, borders exist for a reason: security, economic stability, political stability, etc...

Personally, I believe freedom of movement should be an inalienable right. It has been a necessity throughout our evolution to at times move out of harms way rather than try and adapt to the changing environment. There must be limits though.

For me, the key to peace and security begins with satisfying the most basic requirements of survival: food, shelter, security, etc... The best way to satisfy these requirements is through individual work. But, people need a way to work.

In the United States there are basically two camps on the immigration issue that are opposed to immigration: protectionists and nationalists. Protectionists seek to sustain a certain standard of living and see immigrants who are willing to work for much less as a threat to this. Nationalists see immigrants as a threat to the political fabric of society, with differing political views, cultures, and values. I see no problem with either of these things.

First, the US standard of living is far better than most other places in the world and compared to places like Mexico, it is a nirvana. From an economic perspective, I have no problem what-so-ever with hard working people wanting to come to this country to earn an honest living. The only concern that I have is with too rapid growth that results in a break down in society. As a community grows, there must be time enough to build infrastructure such as schools, hospitals, housing, etc... Also, the immigrants must be making a positive contribution to the community as opposed to taking advantage of entitlements without giving anything back to the community. This is why I am in favor of things like guest worker programs and strong border enforcement. Allow people to come here to meet the demands of the market place, but regulate and manage that flow so that communities are not overwhelmed.

Second, the US culture is a function of immigration. It is the pluralism of this country that is what made it great. Societies that seek to assimilate immigrants into their culture by compelling them to adopt their existing way of life, values, and culture is a huge mistake in my mind. Diversity is the key to being able to adapt to an every changing environment. We have an obligation to preserve the fundamental rights and strategies of social organization that have proven to work effectively to create opportunities for everyone, but we do not have an obligation to "Americanize" anyone.

[Trout]

Restaurants generally get better, it's easier to find many art and dance classes and the dating pool opens up for the plus side.

[nixon]

I support immigration here in America, but due to the climate in certain countries, I feel there needs to be a controlled influx from those places. And yes Mexico is #1 on that list. The reason, is that just as uncontrolled urbanization has cost us a lot of land and resources, uncontrolled immigration has a similar effect. The reason I single out certain countries is because those places at this time, if no checks existed, we could end up with nearly their entire population in a very short time. Then we would become Mexico, which helps neither us or them.

[travc]

Generally, adding diversity into the gene pool is a good thing. Hybrid vigor!

For a large nation with diverse (genetically) people from the outset, this isn't much of a factor. But for small nations and on smaller scales (towns, communities, ect), public health can be seriously depressed over the long term by too much xenophobia.

I know this thread is about bigger political, social, and economic effects, but I just thought I'd throw this out there.

[Hooboy !!]

Generally, adding diversity into the gene pool is a good thing. Hybrid vigor!
This is a bit of a taboo subject, but the consequences of inbreeding are pretty well understood. So, I tend to agree with this assessment, but I think it is a two edged sword. So I tend not to advocate anything one way or the other. I prefer to just let nature take its course.

[toth8]

Barriers to immigration are unnecessary.

And I find it amusing that US citizens hate immigration. OK, where did you ancestors come from? And why did they have the right to immigrate into the US whilst some Joe Mexican doesn't?!

Borders should always be open.

[Hooboy !!]

Barriers to immigration are unnecessary.

And I find it amusing that US citizens hate immigration. OK, where did you ancestors come from? And why did they have the right to immigrate into the US whilst some Joe Mexican doesn't?!

Borders should always be open.
A community that has done a good job of managing themselves should be able to defend themselves from migrant populations trying to enter their borders who have done a poor job of managing their community and bringing with them their world view that facilitiated the poor management.

[dancer_rnb]

Barriers to immigration are unnecessary.

And I find it amusing that US citizens hate immigration. OK, where did you ancestors come from? And why did they have the right to immigrate into the US whilst some Joe Mexican doesn't?!

Borders should always be open.


We should treat immigrants no worse than Mexico herself does.:devil1:

Why does no one critisize how Mexico treats Hondurans and Guatemalans
who want to come to Mexico?

[Hooboy !!]

We should treat immigrants no worse than Mexico herself does.:devil1:

Why does no one critisize how Mexico treats Hondurans and Guatemalans
who want to come to Mexico?
There is near open rebellion in southern Mexico as a consequence of class division in Mexico. Mexicans of European decent, who basically own and rule Mexico, treat the natives there with very little respect or dignity.

[toth8]

A community that has done a good job of managing themselves should be able to defend themselves from migrant populations trying to enter their borders who have done a poor job of managing their community and bringing with them their world view that facilitiated the poor management.

So? Didn't Americans' ancestors bring their "world views" with them? Let them all in, I say.

[toth8]

We should treat immigrants no worse than Mexico herself does.:devil1:

Why does no one critisize how Mexico treats Hondurans and Guatemalans
who want to come to Mexico?

Because it's poor. duh.

Immigrants simply want to improve their lot in life. Why is that so bad?

[dancer_rnb]

Because it's poor. duh.

Immigrants simply want to improve their lot in life. Why is that so bad?


Being poor is not excuse for evil behavior.
Immigrants to Mexico also want to improve their lot in life.
I sense a double standard here.

By the way, my Mom's parents left Mexico.

[Hooboy !!]

So? Didn't Americans' ancestors bring their "world views" with them? Let them all in, I say.
Do you then also support colonization? Why should we then not be allowed to invade and colonize other countries and impose our world view on others?

[toth8]

They wouldn't be forcing their world view on you. And I don't see how it's linked to colonialism.

[Loren Pechtel]

Barriers to immigration are unnecessary.

And I find it amusing that US citizens hate immigration. OK, where did you ancestors come from? And why did they have the right to immigrate into the US whilst some Joe Mexican doesn't?!

Borders should always be open.

No. This would be catastrophic.

Immigration is fine in moderation and probably even beneficial.

The problem is that people can move around faster than the labor market can react. When immigration exceeds the rate at which the labor market can react the result is bad.

Open the borders and we become just another third-world country.

[gargoyle]

What about a different tack: Immigration is one of the most important ways that western values are spread back to the countries where immigration originates. Much more effective than bombing them into democratic nations. Immigrants bring their values to their new nation but their children and their grandchildren adopt the value of the nation they now live in (it is 60 year process). During that time the family exports its new values back to their country of origin, it is these ideas that create grassroots institutions for democratic reform. The flow of ideas, and economic activity between the two countries is beneficial to both. Mexico's birth rates will stabilize, the micro infusion of american money will continue to increase economic activity at the root of mexican society, liberal democratic ideas will continue to transform Mexican politics. The best course Canada and the US could take with Mexico is to allow registration of illegal immigrants, give them a process to achieve citizenship and apply all of the benefits and protections of our society to them - this will hasten the transformation of Mexico.

[Hooboy !!]

They wouldn't be forcing their world view on you. And I don't see how it's linked to colonialism.
If they achieve a majority, how is not forcing their world view on you in a democratic society?

[Hooboy !!]

What about a different tack: Immigration is one of the most important ways that western values are spread back to the countries where immigration originates. Much more effective than bombing them into democratic nations. Immigrants bring their values to their new nation but their children and their grandchildren adopt the value of the nation they now live in (it is 60 year process).
Excellent point. Trade has been the greatest means of human growth in intellectual terms. This is why I am a huge fan of globalization.

[Jay GW]

The number 1 problem with immigration has nothing to do with destination countries.

The problem is the fact the places people are leaving do not improve because of immigration.

[Hooboy !!]

The number 1 problem with immigration has nothing to do with destination countries.

The problem is the fact the places people are leaving do not improve because of immigration.
Another good point. There are limits of course. Not all regions are as capable of supporting communities as others. Some times... Sam Kinison had it right, you have to move where the food is.

[Mister Agenda]

Mexico has a supply of labor and we have a demand for it. Mexicans have a demand for jobs and we have a supply of them. We have restricted the flow of labor from Mexico, I feel for arguably racist reasons, in the last century. I think it is at least possible that both Mexico and the USA would be in better shape today if Mexicans could have come to and from America as freely as Americans (used to be able to) go to and from Mexico and Canada. The fact that in order for a sufficient number of job-seeking Mexicans to be matched to labor-seeking USA businesses, serious trespassing must be involved, causes the USA more problems than if it allowed free entry of Mexicans for business or pleasure.

[Hooboy !!]

Mexico also has natural resources that are being inefficiently exploited so that jobs could be created in Mexico for the labor that is in Mexico, for clearly nationalistic/bigotted reasons.

[toth8]

If they achieve a majority, how is not forcing their world view on you in a democratic society?

I see no reason why America's wealth would deteriorate with excess immigration.

I see no evidence that Mexico is poor because of a difference in values. It also depends on whether one believes in assimilation or multiculturalism. If guided by the former, then Mexicans would adapt to US culture and values and nothing would be harmed in that respect.

[gargoyle]

The number 1 problem with immigration has nothing to do with destination countries.

The problem is the fact the places people are leaving do not improve because of immigration.

I do not think this is true in all cases. If the immigration is because of natural disaster - like famine etc, or because of war the situation will not improve.

Immigration for economic activity does improve the nation that is losing people because there is less social, political and economic turmoil from unemployment and lack of opportunity. Also the people who have left send money back to their families - this has a wide based stimulative effect on the economy of the country losing citizens - think of it like micro finance by family.

[gargoyle]

Excellent point. Trade has been the greatest means of human growth in intellectual terms. This is why I am a huge fan of globalization.

I am in favor of regulated and managed globalization. I think that trade is the other hammer that can be used to transform a nation from within to democratic reform - but the key is to force employers to improve working conditions in their countries with western style labour reforms, regulations and laws.

laizze-faire globalization is as abusive as dictatorial communism.

[Hooboy !!]

I see no evidence that Mexico is poor because of a difference in values.
Then why are they poor? Mexico is rich in natural resources.

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

1. Value is determined by supply and demand, therefore a world in which human life is precious is a world in which human life is scarce.

2. The world’s human population cannot grow without limit, therefore it will not grow without limit.

3. The world’s human population will stop growing when either:
3.1 the death rate rises to meet the birth rate or
3.2. the birth rate falls to meet the death rate.

4. The world’s human population will stop growing as a result of either:
4.1 non-human causes or
4.2 human agency.

5. Human agency is either:
5.1 Democratic or
5.2 Undemocratic.

6. Voluntary programs for population control breed non-compliant individuals.

7. Human misery is like heat: in the absence of barriers, it flows so as to distribute itself equally.

Your choices are limited.

Humans displace wilderness. Organisms (including people) which can reproduce at high density have a selective advantage over organisms which require lots of open space. The Earth's surface area and solar budget are finite. No positive rate of human population growth is sustainable in the long run.

The big business position and traditional Republican party position has been pro-mmigration. This is still the editorial position of the Wall Street Journal. The private-sector union position and traditional Democratic Party position has been anti-immigration. What has changed about the Democratic Party is the growing influence of public-sector unions (e.g., teachers and social workers), who gain from an increase in their client base.

Build a wall.

The issue in not the color, religion, or language of immigrants; it’s the absolute number of immigrants. Mexican politicians will not address Mexican population growth until Mexico can no longer use the USA as a sink for excess population. Don’t bother seeking illegals; just deport them when they are caught for other crimes.

[Fedor Emelianenko]

when you have forced integration it leads to social upheaval. that's why i support the libertarian model on immigration, where everyone becomes their own gate keeper.

[toth8]

Then why are they poor? Mexico is rich in natural resources.

Natural resources mean jack. Japan has few natural resources yet is a wealthy country.

[Hooboy !!]

Natural resources mean jack. Japan has few natural resources yet is a wealthy country.
Actually, Japan is also fairly rich in natural resources, however... you are helping me make my point. Japan is an example of a hard working, industrious, and innovative society that has learned how to get the most out of what is available.