feminists, do you think men suffer from sexist oppression?

[gnosis92]

Certainly some feminists might embrace the idea that hetero men might be sexist against other men, in favor of attractive women, but what about the idea of women oppressing men? For example, for social cliques that excludes and mistreats some men.

[DietCoke]

Yes. I mean no. Oh, I'm so confused.

[EricK]

About the only mainstream example of sexism against men that I can think of is the prejudice in our society against men who want to work with young children (eg as a nanny or as a teacher) or indeed who just want to interact with them in any way.

[DietCoke]

Certainly some feminists might embrace the idea that hetero men might be sexist against other men, in favor of attractive women, but what about the idea of women oppressing men? For example, for social cliques that excludes and mistreats some men.

Ah! Thank you for the additional clarification. I don't have the faintest idea what you mean by "hetero men might be sexist against other men, in favor of attractive women" but I do know something about being excluded from social cliques because I am a man.

I'm a full time, stay at home dad. I closed my business to stay home, and my wife works full time. I regularly suffer odd looks at the playground from the women there. My children have been excluded from "playdates" because of me. People regularly react with sympathy when I tell them I'm a stay at home dad. They usually assure me that I'll find work soon, if I just keep trying.

I don't see what any of this has to do with feminism, but if you would care to connect the dots, I'd be happy to elaborate on my story.

[gnosis92]

About the only mainstream example of sexism against men that I can think of is the prejudice in our society against men who want to work with young children (eg as a nanny or as a teacher) or indeed who just want to interact with them in any way.

You don't think women treating nerds/geeks by marginalizing them is a mainstream example?

[DietCoke]

You don't think women treating nerds/geeks by marginalizing them is a mainstream example?

A mainstream example of what?

[ravenscape]

I married a geek. I find geekyness attractive. I guess I'm not mainstream.

[EricK]

You don't think women treating nerds/geeks by marginalizing them is a mainstream example?

Aren't they marginalised because they are nerd/geeks rather than because they are men? For one thing, other men marginalise geeks too. For another, nerdesses/geekesses are equally marginilised (also both by men and women).

If this thread were about anti-intellectualism you might have a point here.

[DietCoke]

If this thread were about anti-intellectualism you might have a point here.

Will someone please explain what this thread is about?:confused: :)

[Jolly_Penguin]

I was once fired for being male.

It was an all female workplace and one of them hired me without checking with the others. They grudgingly let me work there for a while before finally deciding in a meeting I did not attend to get rid of me. My work performance was well above the norm and it was rather obvious why I was let go. I considered legal action, but got another job so fast I didn't care to pursue it. Years later though I met up with one of the ladies I worked with there and she confirmed the reason for my firing (at this point the orginization no longer existed).

[Metaphor]

I don't know about my 'feminists' credentials (although according to the right wing, anyone who thinks women should be free to participate in the workforce are 'feminists', anyone who thinks they should be free to participate in anything beyond that are 'radical feminists'), however the very same gender roles that restrict women go hand in hand with gender roles that restrict men.

As has already been pointed out, men who choose to work with young children are sometimes regarded with suspicion (primary school teachers, nannies, any kind of child care). I think there are also barriers to male participation in other female-dominated areas like nursing.

[Dryhad]

Those stupid domestic violence ads they show over here. Basically saying "All men are guilty of domestic violence, and women can do no wrong". They have a man and a woman in the exact same situation (witness to another's domestic violence) but the man is evil and the woman is a victim. Ridiculous.

Ok, yeah, got that off my chest. I think most sexism today (towards men and women) is really more social predjudices. You won't find men in the positions feminists originally spoke out against, but neither will you find women. There have been great improvements. There's little left but how society views male child care workers and whatnot.

[toth8]

You don't think women treating nerds/geeks by marginalizing them is a mainstream example?

So the girls at school picked on you for being a geek?

First, no one cares and second how is that related to sexism?

[aegis]

You don't think women treating nerds/geeks by marginalizing them is a mainstream example?

Of women opressing men? No, I would bet men marginalize nerdy/geeky females as well and I doubt it has anything to do with sexism and more with wanting to have sex with attractive women and the social perception of geeks/nerds as unattractive.

[gnosis92]

Aren't they marginalised because they are nerd/geeks rather than because they are men? For one thing, other men marginalise geeks too. For another, nerdesses/geekesses are equally marginilised (also both by men and women).

If this thread were about anti-intellectualism you might have a point here.

While I agree with what you say, feminists consider rape and breast cancer funding a feminist issue since they primarily affect women. By analogy to this kind of thinking I reject, geekiness/nerdiness affects mostly men, and therefore when women mistreat such men, they are "sexist"

[lisarea]

I don't see what any of this has to do with feminism, but if you would care to connect the dots, I'd be happy to elaborate on my story.

It actually has quite a bit to do with it, really.

Pretty much any kind of cultural marker traditionally seen as feminine is devalued in our society. Sex equality did provide opportunities for women to enter traditionally male professions and wear pants and such, but the pejorative connotations of femininity haven't changed much at all. Men are still ostracized for staying home to care for their kids, working as nurses or secretaries, and so forth. Hell, people criticize men just for wearing pink clothes.

And some of the most common and hostile insults used against men are those that imply they're like women.

You're being ostracized because you chose a traditionally female path, and that is seen as beneath you.

[jeffevnz]

I wouldn't argue that women have it better than men, but they don't have it nearly as bad as feminists tell us. For example, the fact that, among full-time year-round workers, women make on average about 3/4 of what men make, is routinely cited as evidence of sexism in pay. However, when you compare men and women working in the same jobs, with the same education and experience, the gap disappears... The way we handle divorce settlements in this country is pretty slanted against men... Lastly, although there's no way to measure it, it's my feeling that women tend to be in control of personal interactions with men, both socially and professionally.

[DietCoke]

It actually has quite a bit to do with it, really.

Pretty much any kind of cultural marker traditionally seen as feminine is devalued in our society. Sex equality did provide opportunities for women to enter traditionally male professions and wear pants and such, but the pejorative connotations of femininity haven't changed much at all. Men are still ostracized for staying home to care for their kids, working as nurses or secretaries, and so forth. Hell, people criticize men just for wearing pink clothes.

And some of the most common and hostile insults used against men are those that imply they're like women.

You're being ostracized because you chose a traditionally female path, and that is seen as beneath you.

The OP seems to be casting out some sort of accusation against feminism, but since it is unclear what that accusation is, I was trying to get him to clarify. My experience is that many feminists (myself included) are generally opposed to all forms of sexual discrimination. I presented my example of being ostracized because I was prepared to demonstrate how a feminist would be opposed to such treatment.

[DietCoke]

While I agree with what you say, feminists consider rape and breast cancer funding a feminist issue since they primarily affect women. By analogy to this kind of thinking I reject, geekiness/nerdiness affects mostly men, and therefore when women mistreat such men, they are "sexist"

Rape and breast cancer effect everyone. Some of my dearest friends have been raped. My mother had breast cancer. These are societal issues that feminists stepped up to take on. I'm not clear how fighting for breast cancer research or campaigning to reduce the incidence of rape is antithetical to the rights of men. Can you clarify, please?

[lisarea]

I wouldn't argue that women have it better than men, but they don't have it nearly as bad as feminists tell us. For example, the fact that, among full-time year-round workers, women make on average about 3/4 of what men make, is routinely cited as evidence of sexism in pay. However, when you compare men and women working in the same jobs, with the same education and experience, the gap disappears...

This is not true. The gap gets smaller, but I've never seen a credible study that said it didn't exist at all. There was a study of male vs. female physicians' salaries that did a very thorough job of adjusting for age, education, experience, hours worked, and practice areas, and it still found that female physicians earned considerably less than male ones.

[jeffevnz]

There's nothing bad about fighting breast cancer. What I find sexist is that breast cancer research gets more than twice the federal funding that prostate cancer does, even though men catch and die of prostate cancer in the almost exactly the same proportions that women catch and die of breast cancer.

[DietCoke]

There's nothing bad about fighting breast cancer. What I find sexist is that breast cancer research gets more than twice the federal funding that prostate cancer does, even though men catch and die of prostate cancer in the almost exactly the same proportions that women catch and die of breast cancer.

Funding for research has to do with who can garner the most attention for a cause. The problem isn't sexism, it's the way we fund research. Surely you aren't suggesting that it would be less "sexist" if we cut funding for breast cancer research and let more women die? If you think more should be done in terms of prostate cancer research, then there is room for you to advocate for the cause. Feminists aren't stopping you.

[lisarea]

Breast cancer research is a strange case, and it's all about influence and marketing. The most influential breast cancer organization, the Susan G. Komen Foundation, has gained its position in large part because of its connections with politicians (notably Shrub, who once appointed the founder ambassador to somewhere), drug companies, and medical device manufacturers. They focus almost exclusively on after the fact developments--medical treatment for breast cancer, and breast cancer detection, rather than prevention. They actively avoid addressing environmental factors, as that wouldn't be in their better interests.

They are very politically motivated, often in issues only tangentially related to breast cancer. For example, they played a huge role in advocating the patient-hostile Patients' Bill of Rights. They play funny little games with their accounting so they can claim that all of their proceeds go toward breast cancer research, but they're using a definition of 'all' isn't inclusive of everything. (Which is what I used to think 'all' meant.)

That really doesn't have anything to do with feminism, and in a lot of ways, the research they're doing is a dangerous distraction from a lot of the research that needs to be done.

[toth8]

While I agree with what you say, feminists consider rape and breast cancer funding a feminist issue since they primarily affect women. By analogy to this kind of thinking I reject, geekiness/nerdiness affects mostly men, and therefore when women mistreat such men, they are "sexist"

Heh, non sequitur.

[charley63]

Certainly some feminists might embrace the idea that hetero men might be sexist against other men, in favor of attractive women, but what about the idea of women oppressing men? For example, for social cliques that excludes and mistreats some men.

Your example of geeky men being "oppressed" by pretty attractive women by not dating them, etc., doesn't seem to me to fall into oppression, though I would suggest that it does have something to do with sexism.

Sexism is a system that disadvantages women in the workforce and other social arenas http://www.pay-equity.org/PDFs/occupation2000.pdf . This system has psychological consequences in that women become dependent on men for access to basic living necessities. This is most extreme in pre-modern societies where women have no independent financial resources.

In such a sexist society, women are compelled to compete for higher economic status by attracting a man from a social class above them, as opposed to competing more directly in the workforce, where sexism impedes women from higher wages.

Feminism arose as a protest to these exclusionary and discriminatory practices. In the past, the classic geeky man was not socially influential or wealthy, although the information technology boom has mitigated this. It is more common these days for a geeky man to become wealthy and this attract more desirable women.

I also submit that not all men benefit equally from systemic sexism, nor do all men have the same level of power to perpetuate or change this systemic sexism. This is a feature which grows out of class economics combined with our patriarchal history.

peace! Charley

[purple_kathryn]

I think you're far more likely to be marginalised by pretty much everyone if you're a geeky/nerdy female

and while I agree that about the attitude to stay at home dads I don't think that's only from women - other men are going to be more likely to have a problem with it.

[gnosis92]

I think you're far more likely to be marginalised by pretty much everyone if you're a geeky/nerdy female

and while I agree that about the attitude to stay at home dads I don't think that's only from women - other men are going to be more likely to have a problem with it.

I disagree.

There's like a 10:1 ratio of geeky men to geeky women, so like bees around a hive, they get plenty of attention but the reverse is not true.

I think that the sexist oppression feminists write about is mostly of historical interest, at least as far as college campuses go.

[toth8]

But these women who berate you for being geeky aren't singling you out for being male? So how is it sexism?

[ravenscape]

I disagree.

There's like a 10:1 ratio of geeky men to geeky women, so like bees around a hive, they get plenty of attention but the reverse is not true.

I think that the sexist oppression feminists write about is mostly of historical interest, at least as far as college campuses go.

Gender gap in a geek profession (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/30/BU61554.DTL&type=printable).

I post this article because it's mostly in direct conflict with my own experience. I'm a computer professional and have been for 20 years. In my own company, the gender demographics are nearly equal and have been for the last 15 or so years. The age demographics, though -- whoa. We have a huge crater in the 30-40 year age range that is going to seriously bite as more and more boomers retire. And in that 30-40 year age range, the gender count is skewed strongly in the male direction. I wasn't heavily involved in campus recruiting while the age gap began to develop, but I wonder if a gender disparity at the college level may have trickled into the workplace.

Although there was a pay gap in my company 20-30 years ago, it's been pretty much equal pay for equal productivity, responsibility and experience in the last 15 years or so.

[purple_kathryn]

I disagree.

There's like a 10:1 ratio of geeky men to geeky women, so like bees around a hive, they get plenty of attention but the reverse is not true.


Except geeky guys don't necessarily go for geeky women do they?!

[jeffevnz]

Funding for research has to do with who can garner the most attention for a cause. The problem isn't sexism, it's the way we fund research. Surely you aren't suggesting that it would be less "sexist" if we cut funding for breast cancer research and let more women die? If you think more should be done in terms of prostate cancer research, then there is room for you to advocate for the cause. Feminists aren't stopping you.
Fair enough.

[gnosis92]

Except geeky guys don't necessarily go for geeky women do they?!

i do :wave:

[ravenscape]

We need to focus this discussion a little more and add some rigor beyond pure personal experience to keep it within the areas covered by PE&ST.

Thanks
Raven
PE&ST Moderation Team

[Samhain]

I don't know about the whole "geeky" or "nerdy" thing....However, I will say that I feel like men in general do get marginalised in the media quite a bit, especially in advertising. Now, perhaps I'm completely inaccurate in saying that since I don't really have any "data" to back it up, it just stems from what I see on the television, and perhaps, because I'm a man, I miss out on the advertising that marginalises women.

Come to think of it, there is quite a lot of advertising that attempts to portray women as objects of desire. Of course in just about everything else it seems to be geared towards women. I can elaborate with a few examples if necessary.

[DietCoke]

We need to focus this discussion a little more and add some rigor beyond pure personal experience to keep it within the areas covered by PE&ST.

Thanks
Raven
PE&ST Moderation Team

I really think that if the OP would simply state his thesis, that would help tremendously.

[ravenscape]

I really think that if the OP would simply state his thesis, that would help tremendously.
I agree, that would be a good start.

[Metaphor]

I don't know about the whole "geeky" or "nerdy" thing....However, I will say that I feel like men in general do get marginalised in the media quite a bit, especially in advertising. Now, perhaps I'm completely inaccurate in saying that since I don't really have any "data" to back it up, it just stems from what I see on the television, and perhaps, because I'm a man, I miss out on the advertising that marginalises women.

Come to think of it, there is quite a lot of advertising that attempts to portray women as objects of desire. Of course in just about everything else it seems to be geared towards women. I can elaborate with a few examples if necessary.

Oh, advertising! I was thinking too much about economic participation.

There are advertisements in Australia that range from gently mocking of men to downright hostility.

There is the quintessential incompetent male when it comes to parenting - eg nappy (diaper) commercials where the 'father' is too incompetent to change a nappy and the 'mother' comes in to relieve the situation.

An ad that ran recently in Australia involved a man working on his car. An angry woman emerges from the house with a shiny spanner in her hand and then actually hits him on the head with it. The ad then flashes back to an earlier time when the man had put the greasy spanner in the dishwasher - it is an ad for the dishwasher.

If there had been an ad where a woman gets hit in the head with a spanner by a man....I can only imagine the outcry.

[ghetto astronaut]

Girls not liking you because you're nerdy [or any other reason] isn't 'oppression.'

[Matty]

i get the impression that anti male sexual bias is alive and well in terms of divorce settlements and custody of children. The general rule is usally taken that the woman wins custody UNLESS she can be shown to be an unfit mother. Thats simply not right in my book.

In the workplace however i think things are massively levelled out, not that there isnt still room for improvement in both directions in some traditionally gender biased fields, and especially at the higher levels in those fields, but in my arena of biological/medical research fro example, men and women are fairly evenly represented across the board, as it should be.

As per teh examples given above I have a friend who is a male nurse and who commonly cops flak for it from men and women alike, like hes less of a man for choosing a caregiving career. Not particularly hostile flak, more like piss taking but it still shows the bias in atitudes that its even thought worthy of taking the piss out of by some people. He does occasionally get grief from men with regard to changing and bathing them sometimes too by all acounts, thats more of an olds school bigoted homophobic reaction though.

"You want to bath me? What are you GAY?" type shit.

[Ellis]

I think society puts labels and restrictions on everybody, which limits their potential as human beings. Historically, it has tended to repress women more strictly and brutally than men, and give men the advantage, but everyone is affected. I think the feminist goal needs to shift from getting women recognized as equal to men, to combating restrictive gender roles and unhealthy attitudes about sex and gender.