Feminists, does specific examples of women being mistreated in antiquity upset you?

[gnosis92]

Feminists, does specific examples of women being mistreated in antiquity upset you? I know of a philosophy professor who was very upset about this.

What about the fact men were killed in battle, or tortured or enslaved in antiquity?

[DietCoke]

Feminists, does specific examples of women being mistreated in antiquity upset you?

You mean like Joan of Arc? Why, yes, I get nervous about the burning heretics. Don't like it. Probably never will.

I know of a philosophy professor who was very upset about this.

That's really fascinating.


What about the fact men were killed in battle, or tortured or enslaved in antiquity?

Yes, I heard that happened too. Pity.

[Karalora]

Yes, but only because I know that the same attitudes that spawned the mistreatment are still floating around.

[Chris Porter]

Feminists, does specific examples of women being mistreated in antiquity upset you? Yes. I know of a philosophy professor who was very upset about this. I know someone who perfers vanilla ice cream over chocolate. (in other words, the last sentence of yours was a non-squitur, it has nothing to do with the issue)
What about the fact men were killed in battle, or tortured or enslaved in antiquity?Yes, I find that equally upsetting.

[ghetto astronaut]

Feminists, does specific examples of women being mistreated in antiquity upset you?

Sure, but I don't dwell on it.

What about the fact men were killed in battle, or tortured or enslaved in antiquity?

Yeah, but not any more than it bothers me that it still happens now.

[gnosis92]

Sure, but I don't dwell on it.



Yeah, but not any more than it bothers me that it still happens now.

My philosophy professor "dwelled" on it. This is more important than Plato or Aristotle evidentally. He's a feminist, he reads feminists literature as I do not, and I wonder if feminists dwell on how women 3000 ago were raped, and he made no mention of the fact that men 3000 ago were murdered and enslaved.

[DietCoke]

My philosophy professor "dwelled" on it. This is more important than Plato or Aristotle evidentally. He's a feminist, he reads feminists literature as I do not, and I wonder if feminists dwell on how women 3000 ago were raped, and he made no mention of the fact that men 3000 ago were murdered and enslaved.

I was in a class once called African American Women Writers. Teacher never mentioned Mark Twain once. She was all yak, yak, yak, Toni Morrison, yak, yak, yak, Alice Walker, so I totally know what you mean.

[purple_kathryn]

Yes I'm a feminist
Yes I find it upsetting
but I find all abuses upsetting

I'm an empathic kind of person

Does anyone ever start any threads bashing whatever the male equivalent of the feminist is?

[DietCoke]

Perhaps this thread needs a small boost. :)

Generally speaking, academic disciplines are approached from various perspectives. Scholars tend to gravitate towards a particular perspective, and then apply this perspective to their research and writing. Some go on to teach and publish. When I read an article or sign up for a class, the first thing I do is try to understand the author's/teacher's perspective, because this helps me to understand how to interpret the material the author/teacher is presenting. I prefer teachers and writers who identify their perspective, up front, to those who adopt the position that they are "fair." The former leaves determinations of fairness up to me. The latter tries to keep determinations about fairness in the author's/teacher's hands.

[AthenaAwakened]

Feminists, does specific examples of women being mistreated in antiquity upset you? Don't they upset you?I know of a philosophy professor who was very upset about this.

What about the fact men were killed in battle, or tortured or enslaved in antiquity?Are feminists NOT suppose to care?

[Samhain]

At what point do we finally consider history just that...history...and stop applying the emotional connotation to people we don't even know or never even heard of who were marginalised in the past? How long should it take before we can "move on" per se and say "well, the past is the past, all those people are dead and gone and it's a new age where such acts could never happen again"? Can't we just treat it as history? Sort of like how Christians treat the Inquisition and the Crusades?

[gnosis92]

Don't they upset you?Are feminists NOT suppose to care?

I don't dwell on it. If feminists are not supposed to care, why not mention that men in antiquity also suffered brutal short violent lives?

[AthenaAwakened]

I don't dwell on it. If feminists are not supposed to care, why not mention that men in antiquity also suffered brutal short violent lives?

Depends on the discussion. If we are discussing past wrongs against humanity or the male of the species, then of course you talk about men, but if you are talking about the witch trials in Salem per se, then you will most like spend the bulk of the conversation talking about women. (BTW -- 14 women and 6 men were hanged in Salem MA). Discussion of the Sufferagettes, same thing.

Think about it. If you were discussing the NY Giants, mentioning the Average rbi's for the Yankees would be a little silly.

[gnosis92]

Yes I'm a feminist
Yes I find it upsetting
but I find all abuses upsetting

I'm an empathic kind of person

Does anyone ever start any threads bashing whatever the male equivalent of the feminist is?

How is it bashing if I am putting the abuse of women in antiquity in context to the violent lives of men in antiquity?

[ravenscape]

Specifically what is the professor upset about? What aspect of past atrocities or abuses concerns him?

[gnosis92]

Depends on the discussion. If we are discussing past wrongs against humanity or the male of the species, then of course you talk about men, but if you are talking about the witch trials in Salem per se, then you will most like spend the bulk of the conversation talking about women. (BTW -- 14 women and 6 men were hanged in Salem MA). Discussion of the Sufferagettes, same thing.

Think about it. If you were discussing the NY Giants, mentioning the Average rbi's for the Yankees would be a little silly.

I am well aware that all kinds of bad things happened in history to people.

I am suggesting that the way some feminists promote feminism is to bring up the way women were historically mistreated as a marketing device to drive recruitment.

[ravenscape]

Do you think your professor is recruiting? Why do you think he would want to do that?

[gnosis92]

Do you think your professor is recruiting? Why do you think he would want to do that?

Yes I do. For the same reasons Christians do. It is the nature of a proseltyzing ideology to try to convert others.

[gnosis92]

Specifically what is the professor upset about? What aspect of past atrocities or abuses concerns him?

He cited Aristotle's definition of women as lack, and he claimed that the word hysteria is connected with a description of the response women had in the 19th century when eletrical current applied to the clitoris, and that in ancient greece when men fought and they thought their opponents did well, they would draw a penis, and he drew a U on the chalkboard, and when they thought their opponents did poorly, they drew a vagina on their remains, and hew drew an O on the chalkboard. He had us read feminists writings including Simone de'Bourvair, excerpts of bell hooks, Trin min mah, Hooker. He mentioned Luci Iragay.

And unlike Anita Hill, I reported him to the faculty at the end of the semester.
not 20+ years later.

[ravenscape]

Yes I do. For the same reasons Christians do. It is the nature of a proseltyzing ideology to try to convert others.

It is the nature of a pedagogue to engage in pedagogy.

What is the name of the course you're taking with this professor?

[ravenscape]

He cited Aristotle's definition of women as lack, and he claimed that the word hysteria is connected with a description of the response women had in the 19th century when eletrical current applied to the clitoris, and that in ancient greece when men fought and they thought their opponents did well, they would draw a penis, and he drew a U on the chalkboard, and when they thought their opponents did poorly, they drew a vagina on their remains, and hew drew an O on the chalkboard.

And unlike Anita Hill, I reported him to the faculty at the end of the semester.
not 20+ years later.

Was he incorrect in any of these assertions?

[gnosis92]

It is the nature of a pedagogue to engage in pedagogy.

What is the name of the course you're taking with this professor?

Introduction to philosophy. www.uiuc.edu philosophy 101.

[gnosis92]

Was he incorrect in any of these assertions?

I don't know. He did not deny telling students Plato's Vagina Dentata interpretation of Plato's Allegory of the Cave in the classroom.

The UIUC philosophy department chair was not pleased to hear this.

[CelticChic]

You seem to be really stuck on this guy. I had a history teacher in HS who was completely sexist, but that didn't detract from learning history (except when he ranted about women deserving to be raped...but I digress). How about you move on and maybe start picking up books on your own? You can come to your own conclusions about what you read as well, this professor is just one man and there's lots of others out there.

[Christina Mirabilis]

I am suggesting that the way some feminists promote feminism is to bring up the way women were historically mistreated as a marketing device to drive recruitment.

The rest of us are just offering free toasters for anyone that signs up for a tour of duty.

[Elijah]

I have way more hard feelings towards the mistreatment of the women for sure. Men are responsible for the deaths of men in wars, just as they are responsible for the mistreatment of women, then and today.

It’s my view that men have an obligation/responsibility to protect the women of this planet from other men who would do them harm or enslave them. But we shun that duty because this is a planet of cowards too eager to bend over for the authority.

Keeping women down is how you keep the status quo in place.

Luke 11:31 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

[orpheus last chant]

He cited Aristotle's definition of women as lack, and he claimed that the word hysteria is connected with a description of the response women had in the 19th century when eletrical current applied to the clitoris, and that in ancient greece when men fought and they thought their opponents did well, they would draw a penis, and he drew a U on the chalkboard, and when they thought their opponents did poorly, they drew a vagina on their remains, and hew drew an O on the chalkboard. He had us read feminists writings including Simone de'Bourvair, excerpts of bell hooks, Trin min mah, Hooker. He mentioned Luci Iragay.


*gasp* How dare he! That's not philosophy. That's not philosophy at all!


And unlike Anita Hill, I reported him to the faculty at the end of the semester.
not 20+ years later.

Yeah, you weren't an idiot like her at all.

[gnosis92]

*gasp* How dare he! That's not philosophy. That's not philosophy at all!



Yeah, you weren't an idiot like her at all.

hmmm do I sense sarcasm?
Anita Hill was a feminist cause celebre

[AthenaAwakened]

He cited Aristotle's definition of women as lack, and he claimed that the word hysteria is connected with a description of the response women had in the 19th century when eletrical current applied to the clitoris, and that in ancient greece when men fought and they thought their opponents did well, they would draw a penis, and he drew a U on the chalkboard, and when they thought their opponents did poorly, they drew a vagina on their remains, and hew drew an O on the chalkboard. He had us read feminists writings including Simone de'Bourvair, excerpts of bell hooks, Trin min mah, Hooker. He mentioned Luci Iragay.

And unlike Anita Hill, I reported him to the faculty at the end of the semester.
not 20+ years later.

Reading feminist writings is now a reportable offense worthy of chastisement?

[Samhain]

Reading feminist writings is now a reportable offense worthy of chastisement?

I would say not if it were a class on Feminism or Women's Studies or a philosophy course dealing specifically with Feminist writing, etc. For a Philosophy 101 course though? I would say time would be better spent reading Plato, Kant, Decartes, Heidegger, maybe even some Nietzsche. Intro to Philosophy courses are typically concerned with major philosophical movements of the west, particularly what has branched out from Socratic thinking and followed from there as major philosophical movements. It would be alright to touch on feminism in an intro class, but it seems like a majority of the class was concerned with Feminism...that's something akin to spending an entire semester in an intro class talking about Buddhism and Taoism...they have classes for that, it's called Eastern Philosophy.

[AthenaAwakened]

I would say not if it were a class on Feminism or Women's Studies or a philosophy course dealing specifically with Feminist writing, etc. For a Philosophy 101 course though? I would say time would be better spent reading Plato, Kant, Decartes, Heidegger, maybe even some Nietzsche. Intro to Philosophy courses are typically concerned with major philosophical movements of the west, particularly what has branched out from Socratic thinking and followed from there as major philosophical movements. It would be alright to touch on feminism in an intro class, but it seems like a majority of the class was concerned with Feminism...that's something akin to spending an entire semester in an intro class talking about Buddhism and Taoism...they have classes for that, it's called Eastern Philosophy.

Well that's the question isn't it? Did the professor spend the entire semester studying feminism, or even the majority of the semester, to the exclusion of all other philiosphical thought? And which readings were required, 300 page books or two page articles?

Now if your professor is a feminist, then no matter what philosopher you study, he will teach him/her through the prism of feminism. If he is honest, he will tell you that fairly early on, or if he is a crusader for the cause, you the student will know so very early on. If you can't handle that, change sections, drop the class and wait, or fight it out.

I had a dye in the wool freeper for both Macro and Micro Econ. Markets were the answer to everything from inflation to dandruff. Let's just say I don't share such faith in markets. I chose to fight it out. In the end, at graduation he came over to me and told me that I was one of his favorite students.

Then of course there are tenured teachers who pretty much get to teach whatever they want anyway they want. If that's the case, then you have a whole set of other problems.

At any rate, the actions of one person do not define a group. The actions of the professor, if taken at their worse, reflect not feminism as an ideology but a personality type of an individual. If he were a racist, he would crusade for that. If he were a freeper, he would crusade for that. It's not the message with such people, but the need to deliver the truth to the masses, whatever that truth may be.

[Wretchosoft]

Feminists, does specific examples of women being mistreated in antiquity upset you? I know of a philosophy professor who was very upset about this.

What about the fact men were killed in battle, or tortured or enslaved in antiquity?

Um...

The two situations aren't exactly equal. Remember, the men are doing the enslaving and torturing of other men--no similar (widespread) precedent exists for women.

[credoconsolans]

Feminists, does specific examples of women being mistreated in antiquity upset you?

Yes.

What about the fact men were killed in battle, or tortured or enslaved in antiquity?

More male violence, this time against their fellow men instead of women.

Your point seems to be that you're not happy with your Philosophy professor. I read you went ahead and reported him. OK, your choice, but if he's tenured, won't mean a hill of beans.

[Ghostdog]

Feminists, does specific examples of women being mistreated in antiquity upset you? I know of a philosophy professor who was very upset about this.

What about the fact men were killed in battle, or tortured or enslaved in antiquity?

Well crying about it isn't going to change anything...

[dancer_rnb]

It’s my view that men have an obligation/responsibility to protect the women of this planet from other men who would do them harm or enslave them. But we shun that duty because this is a planet of cowards too eager to bend over for the authority.






STRANGE .......... FRUIT .............
:(

[dancer_rnb]

Um...

The two situations aren't exactly equal. Remember, the men are doing the enslaving and torturing of other men--no similar (widespread) precedent exists for women.

You should read Fredrick Douglas' comments about slave
owning white women. Though he did kind of excuse them for becoming more brutal because of men's opinion.

But then, a few of them didn't let
proper opinion affect their dislike of slavery

Add: come to think about it, my mom had a lot of nasty things to say
about white women' prejudice/racism when she was alive.
Shit rolls downhill, I think, and women are no more innocent of it then men are.

[Octavia]

I would say not if it were a class on Feminism or Women's Studies or a philosophy course dealing specifically with Feminist writing, etc. For a Philosophy 101 course though?

Remember though that how philosophers historically perceived women impacted heavily on some of their writings (for example Plato's take on gender in the Republic). How does this not pertain to philosophy? It does cross over into women's/gender studies, yes, but many parts of philosophical history that one would come across in a Philosophy 101 course will cross over into other disciplines - history, economics, the sciences... should they stop teaching philosophy as it relates to these as well?

If so, I begin to wonder what is left...

[gnosis92]

I would say not if it were a class on Feminism or Women's Studies or a philosophy course dealing specifically with Feminist writing, etc. For a Philosophy 101 course though? I would say time would be better spent reading Plato, Kant, Decartes, Heidegger, maybe even some Nietzsche. Intro to Philosophy courses are typically concerned with major philosophical movements of the west, particularly what has branched out from Socratic thinking and followed from there as major philosophical movements. It would be alright to touch on feminism in an intro class, but it seems like a majority of the class was concerned with Feminism...that's something akin to spending an entire semester in an intro class talking about Buddhism and Taoism...they have classes for that, it's called Eastern Philosophy.

Well the department chairman agreed with you.

[gnosis92]

Remember though that how philosophers historically perceived women impacted heavily on some of their writings (for example Plato's take on gender in the Republic). How does this not pertain to philosophy? It does cross over into women's/gender studies, yes, but many parts of philosophical history that one would come across in a Philosophy 101 course will cross over into other disciplines - history, economics, the sciences... should they stop teaching philosophy as it relates to these as well?

If so, I begin to wonder what is left...

FOr some, the LEft is all that what's left.

[Samhain]

Remember though that how philosophers historically perceived women impacted heavily on some of their writings (for example Plato's take on gender in the Republic). How does this not pertain to philosophy? It does cross over into women's/gender studies, yes, but many parts of philosophical history that one would come across in a Philosophy 101 course will cross over into other disciplines - history, economics, the sciences... should they stop teaching philosophy as it relates to these as well?

If so, I begin to wonder what is left...

Of course you shouldn't stop teaching courses as they relate to other subjects, as it is important to know under what influences a philosopher wrote. In philosophy courses there is much that is distinguished as influence even from other philosophers...many write their philosophical views as a response to a predecessor's teachings (much like science), and the origins of all of the ideas and ways of thinking are very important. However, I would say that to concern yourself too much with the history is to miss what is really important in this case, mainly, the philosophies themselves.

These students should be reading The Republic...and maybe there could definitely be a touch in there regarding feminism if that's where your stances lie for where the origins or influences may have been. But it shouldn't take away from what is really important in this course, which is the philosophy itself. I would think that even a heavy smattering of feminist thinking for most people wouldn't warrant a reporting to the dean, however, it would seem to me that a large portion of the class was based around feminism, albeit it's not that it's an unworthy subject even in a philosophy 101 course, but not as it's main focus unless the class was called Feminism in Philosophy or something like that. The main focus should be philosophy, not feminism, and I'll go one step farther and say that there's enough philosophy out there that could fill the space of a 1 semester course by their own rights, to add anything else should be nothing more than novelty information against the focus of the course, which is philosophy.

[Octavia]

These students should be reading The Republic...and maybe there could definitely be a touch in there regarding feminism if that's where your stances lie for where the origins or influences may have been. But it shouldn't take away from what is really important in this course, which is the philosophy itself.

I think you may have missed my point. In the specific example of the Republic, looking at gender is not about where my stances lie - it is about where Plato's did. How he perceived gender influenced the social model that he created in a way that was rather surprising for the time. You can't study one without studying the other.

Now obviously gender studies or feminism isn't going to crop up in some philosophical subjects (logic, for instance, or aesthetics). But in areas of ethics, and socio-political theory, how half the population is treated is going to be part of that subject. In a historical overview, this can include covering what the philosopher's thought about women's place in society in general - or what they failed to think about.

I would agree that an over-emphasis on any philosophical viewpoint in a 101 course is inappropriate. But feminism/treatment of women is a philosophical subject, and has been treated as such (or not) for thousands of years - contrast the views of Plato, Aquinas and Wollstonecroft, for example. As such it belongs in a philosophy course, regardless of where "your" or "my" stance is. It's not something that is different from "the philosophy itself" - it is part of it.

[Samhain]

Sorry, I don't buy it. Feminism is not a philosophical movement, it is a social movement. Discuss it in sociology, or, more appropriately, in a Women's Studies course. If most courses of 101 Philosophy don't even hardly discuss Eastern Philosophy (since these are covered in Eastern Philosophy courses), then I see no reason why Feminism should get preferential treatment, especially considering that it is not a philosophical movement, but a social one.

I'm not saying that there should be no discussion of feminism at all within a philosophy course...Philosophy itself seeps into many different subjects as well, such as mathematics, politics, history, etc. and thus all of these things have to do with Philosophy as well, but calling feminism a philosophical movement is about the same as calling slavery a philosophical movement.

Before responding, however, please note that I am discussing this under the setting that the OP laid...As I said, I don't have any problem with feminism being taught within philosophy courses, but too much of it is a problem, and when faced with the most important philosophical movements of the West, I would say it doesn't deserve much more than a brief overview and maybe one reading in a philosophy course (and the reading would be concerned specifically with feminist influence within Western philosophy). If you want to learn more on the subject then take a Sociology or Women's Studies course if your school offers them.

[Octavia]

Well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree then, because I do think that the perception of women has a place in philosophy - one that should be covered in a Philosophy 101 course, if only to provide a context for the socio-political philosophies put forward by the core thinkers.

I'd be interested in seeing the course outline for gnosis's course, and just who and what the teacher was supposed to cover. Perhaps we in PEST can do better?

[gnosis92]

Well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree then, because I do think that the perception of women has a place in philosophy - one that should be covered in a Philosophy 101 course, if only to provide a context for the socio-political philosophies put forward by the core thinkers.

I'd be interested in seeing the course outline for gnosis's course, and just who and what the teacher was supposed to cover. Perhaps we in PEST can do better?

http://courses.uiuc.edu/cis/schedule/urbana/2007/Fall/PHIL/101.html

PHIL 101
Introduction to Philosophy

Credit: 3 hours.

This course satisfies the General Education Criteria for a
Hist&Philosoph Perspect course.

Consideration of some main problems of philosophy concerning, for example, knowledge, God, mind and body, and human freedom Credit is not given for both PHIL 101 and PHIL 100.

others in the department include:
Associate Chair
Professor William Schroeder

Director of Graduate Studies
Professor Timothy McCarthy

Director of Undergraduate Studies
Associate Professor Robert Wengert

Academic Advisors
Associate Professor Robert Wengert & Professor William Schroeder

PATRICK MAHER, Professor (Ph.D. Pittsburgh)

[gnosis92]

Sorry, I don't buy it. Feminism is not a philosophical movement, it is a social movement. Discuss it in sociology, or, more appropriately, in a Women's Studies course. If most courses of 101 Philosophy don't even hardly discuss Eastern Philosophy (since these are covered in Eastern Philosophy courses), then I see no reason why Feminism should get preferential treatment, especially considering that it is not a philosophical movement, but a social one.

I'm not saying that there should be no discussion of feminism at all within a philosophy course...Philosophy itself seeps into many different subjects as well, such as mathematics, politics, history, etc. and thus all of these things have to do with Philosophy as well, but calling feminism a philosophical movement is about the same as calling slavery a philosophical movement.

Before responding, however, please note that I am discussing this under the setting that the OP laid...As I said, I don't have any problem with feminism being taught within philosophy courses, but too much of it is a problem, and when faced with the most important philosophical movements of the West, I would say it doesn't deserve much more than a brief overview and maybe one reading in a philosophy course (and the reading would be concerned specifically with feminist influence within Western philosophy). If you want to learn more on the subject then take a Sociology or Women's Studies course if your school offers them.

I certainly agree with this.

I used to think during the time that I was a believing Christian, that there was this thing called truth, that truth was important, and that philosophy was important for that reason.

My philosophy professor is a leftwing sociopolitical activism, and to him, social justice and social awareness is what is most important.

[Cynical-Chick]

Feminists, does specific examples of women being mistreated in antiquity upset you? I know of a philosophy professor who was very upset about this.

What about the fact men were killed in battle, or tortured or enslaved in antiquity?

Um...

The two situations aren't exactly equal. Remember, the men are doing the enslaving and torturing of other men--no similar (widespread) precedent exists for women.
Yes. Total red herring.

Read this story (http://itech.fgcu.edu/faculty/wohlpart/alra/gilman.htm#INSERT%203) by Charlotte Perkins Gillman. How can that not enrage you?

At any rate, this thread was started to be "HA HA FEMINISTS R DUM."

[Octavia]

http://courses.uiuc.edu/cis/schedule/urbana/2007/Fall/PHIL/101.html


Yes, I found the link on your university website before you posted it, but it really didn't tell me much. You have to admit it's not very informative. I was looking for something more like a list of the philosophers studied, how long each was studied for, and what part of their work you focussed on (reading lists etc.). Knowing this will give some indication of just how far your professor is going off-track.

[Octavia]

Read this story (http://itech.fgcu.edu/faculty/wohlpart/alra/gilman.htm#INSERT%203) by Charlotte Perkins Gillman. How can that not enrage you?


I've read it before, and it does upset me. Is she the one who wrote "Herland"? Because that was cringe-worthy for completely different reasons...