Mysterious
October 3, 2007, 05:48 PM
This thread has been set up to provide a formal debate between Mysterious and Alcyonian who will debate the following resolution:
"Resolved: Pedophilia is misunderstood by society."
Mysterious will affirm and Alcyonian will oppose. The debate will have 5 rounds and Mysterious will go first, per the parameters (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=4819525&postcount=5).
A Peanut Gallery (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=4828965#post4828965) is set up in the Moral Foundations & Principles forum for the rest of us to comment on the debate.
Enjoy the debate!
- KWSN, FD Moderator
Is pedophilia misunderstood by society? Of course it is. It seems society has a extreme and bizarre xenophobia of giving children SEXUAL DEMOCRACY. They keep making excuses, disputes, confrontation, and everything else to close the child out. This form of "child abuse" by impeded, limiting, blocking, or interefering with their universal god given right to have sex is cruel, punishment, injustice, void of democracy, and constitute a serious human right abuse on the basis that the child is being forced to conform when in actuality, they may be interested but can't simply get.
I mysterious strongly oppose society views on pedophilia at large because first and foremosts, where does the moral, ethical, philosophical, religious, etc justification comes from. If many countries especially developing countries eg thailand, phillipines, vietnam, and many african countries freely allow children to engage in sexual relations at will, whats makes the USA more right to impose their sillyness, absurd, lost, unfounded culture of blocking children on this issue.
Absolutely nothing, there is no proof, evidence, data, facts, or any support that shows children in countries that freely allow sex trade as i mentioned earlier grow up deformed, traumatized, long term impacted, or harmed in that severely cripples the emotional, social, physical, etc immediate, short, and long term development.
In fact, many of these children in these countries grow up healthy productive normal lives. It also clear that may of these same children actually enjoy the sex, pleasure, learning experience, and practice of engaing in sexual relations with ANYBODY that has money or incentives to give them. Its a normal part of life.
The proble with pedophilia intolerance, resistance, degrading, or attacks in countries such as the USA is not really a moral, legal, ethic, philosophical, religious, etc phenomenon. The ultimate explanation is BOLD ETHNOCENTRISM, EGOCENTRISM, CULTURAL SUPERIOTY, ETC. People In The USA tend to think they know all, smarter than everybody, has all the power, decisions, rule of law, and control over how society will managed and run to meet the interest of the majority.
This is important because if evidence could prove that pedophilia or child sexual relations don't cause as much harm or no harm, as originaly thought, nothing would change. Thats because people in the USA especially legal authorities will continue to behave, accept/reject, or allow what suits them bests, not what indivuals think works for them.
There hard core line comes in is personal FEAR, MISTRUST, XENOPHOBIA, etc that allowing a child especially to have too much knowledge or understanding of how important things in society eg sex, money, maturity, legal and political power, and how adults live, behave, work, and surive, they may learn too much too soon too quickly and pose a serious threat or risks to the people with power and authority because they they may figure out to how the system so well or even potentially topple it.
The system just want children to pbey, listen, listen, listen, follow, follow, follow, obey, obey, obey, and refrain fom challenge, disent, talking over, or putting authority to the test. As for pedophiles, you may ask, how does this help the support the notion pedophile bheavior and engagement in sexual relations with children is not harmful. It does because how can society sit back and attack an issue that has not even reached the surface enough to discuess because attempts to keep it held down has proven so succesful.
You always hear cases of child abuses, parents not giving the child proper care and treatment, marital divorce and separation, family crisis and extreme lack of cohesiveness, children ending up in adoption, children commiting suicide, children growing up not being sucessful of having the best life can offer them, and everything else, but raraly has the child or minor has even seriously crippled the parent and if the do, its always because of their negligence to provide and care for them as needed so they explode and backlash.
Its just a simple matter of parental and authoritarian dictaorship, control, humilation, managment, and force: EITHER YOU DO AS I TELL YOU OR ELSE... Its a yes or no and zero in betweens, lines, space for competition or challenge, or social and metal experimentation. It seems the children regardless of what society believes can't indefinitely cotinue to live under the cirsumtances they do at least for the majority, change will come extreme pressure and force from both internal and external pressure so that something new can occur.
By all accounts and measures, USA society as a whole has low level of educational achievement. Even more so on the emotional, social, ethical, philosophical, ethcial growunds becuause we think we are so high, important, dominant, controlling, that nobody can change or tell us what to do. We just going to do as we want, people will follow as we say, resistors and outcasts will be put away either jailed, killed, or severely punished, AND WE WILL NOT CHANGE UNLESS WE HAVE TO!
As to pedophiles, the immediate, short, and long impacts are difficult to discuss because there is an uncertainty principle. Meaning, what would happen if society permitted such behavior as opposed to what it is now on the issue. The uncertainty principle is extremely crucial because you never know how people will behave, act, and live until the oportunity and societal changes convince them that they can do so without any significan or conflict of interests.
Its crystal clear, Pedophiles are not violent, malicious, insane, rapist, killers, assailts, or severe harm to children. They are very much normal people. However, their behavior, actions, etc as society thinks is not absolutely their personal choices. It influneced by a large number of childhood, social, emotional, etc circumstances that have experineced prior to full puberty, gowth, and devlopment, and they are just repeating the same abuse that was done to them.
Lets be clear, these pedophiles have histories, implications, backgrounds, and reason for the actions. This cleary does not mean that all pedophiles behavior and actions is not on worse case scenario side. It all depends what circumstances, situations, cause/effects lead up to them doing so. here is a good example.
My personal reason for supporting pedophilia is not based on sex. Its more about child empowerment. JUST READ MY THREAD IN "ELSWHERE" ON "
WHY DO PARENTS HIDE, BLOCK, AND PREVENT THEIR CHILDREN FROM KNOWING THEIR PERSONAL BUSINESS. Its all about what if children could do this or that.This thread really addresses more about what i am talking about just read.
In any ecvent, the psychological, legal, emotional, physical, etc aspects of the effects of pedophile behavior is large unfounded, difficult to analyze, study, critique, evaluate, and understand. This is largely because its illegal and if you do experiment with children, you go to jail, and mosts of results are pedophiles (behavior and actions ) that have been locked up, punished, or taken care is very confidential, hidden, and keep secret with the exception that they are a harm to society. The legal authorties just tell you to keep your children away from them because they are a danger, not what, when, why, and how. JUST STAY AWAY TO BE SAFE!
I attempted to do researsch, legal studies, or find any relevant sources sources to support my findings, but in my opinion, they almost always come up inconclusive, one sided, biased, and in favor of what the majority believes, its evil, wrong, misconduct, insanity, and out of reality. I never found any reference that support what could, possible, what if, maybe, etc pedophilia and child sexual relations could do that is positive. I alos found it difficult to discuss sex with virtually anybody. It very diffiuclt to learn sexual nature, practice, immediate/short/long term effects, by just talking, reading, or trying to visualize. You don't understand until you're in the bedroom and get down to business. Its the experince scenario. You don't know anything until you try and you never know what may or may not result.
As for pedophiles being misundertood by society. I think this statement is out of order. There is no misunderstanding. trust me. If legal authorities and parents have showed virtually no inclination to change the present stance. its simply means its not wanted. It doesn't matter whether its the efffecs prove to be what society say or it proves society is wrong, society just will not allow this behavior and practice at the present and quite possibly not for the long forseeable future!
Its a simple societal cultural norm, value, belief, etc not to do so and engage in sexual acts until they are adults and sexual relations MUST BE WITH OTHER GROWN ADULTS AND NOT MINORS! Society truly belives they are protecting our children and by not doing so, the child's best interest would protected since apparently, they are mature, developed, or competent enough to make personal decisions on ths level.
In conclusion for the first round of this debate, i want to make this crystal clear. I am favor of ging the child power over the parents and their personal choices and actions and not the reverse! If children could run things, make important decisions, and learn how society really works and not bullshit lies, propaganda, deceit, forcing and pressuring on them to conform, and trowing rule of lie by demanding what they can or can't do would be in their best interest. In any event, you can make any child do or follow any rule of law or limited system long term.
Just llok at out children when the reach adult-hood. They lack so much emotional, social, educational, intellectual, sexual, physical, maturity, etc to be sucessful in life and take care of themselves. In fact, i don't belive in adult-hood has a true definition. Age alone doesn't make you an adult nor does the maturity, growth, development, you think you have. Trust me, there are no adults. Somebody is all under check and balance. There is no ultimate person. You always have to listen and obey somebody.
Somebody is always managing, making the big decisions, and calling the shots, and in most cases, they are not suited for the majority but rather they elites. As much as i dislike what these people are doing, i am proud to say that, the current system that exist is probably the best at the moment and there is little or no room for alternative system because society doesn't change overnight. You can't destroy and eliminate one system until you have an alternative tp replace it with and it seems everytime humanity has attempted to do so, the alternative system is usually worse off than the original.
It doesn't matter what system you have, somebody especially the educated, brilliant, know how, technical, financially fit, strong connections, and accepted will always find out to make the system cripple, work against what it was intended for, flawed, and not suited for the best interest of society. We just to accept the fact there is many things we can't change and control and have to live with everyday, and that trying to please, live happy, be accepted, or gain recognition almost always ends with discontent, un-happiness, failure, and defeat at least for the majority of us and the ones that do make it is probably by god's efforts and even though they may not be the best in our eyes, they're are probably the only we will get and attempts to push them out and put others in will only give the same results if not worse.
Alcyonian
October 9, 2007, 02:53 AM
Introduction
This debate is to determine whether society misunderstands pedophilia. My position is that society does understand pedophilia in general, particularly in the relevant areas of law and psychology. Although it is standard practice to debate particular points taken from an opponents post, I am unable to do this with any level of satisfaction due to the lack of coherency of that post. However, I was able to draw out the main issues worthy of discussion, and this is what I wish to present. While addressing some comments from Mysterious’ post, I will discuss the following :
(1) Definition of Pedophilia in Psychology;
(2) Definition of Pedophilia in Law;
(3) Profiling Pedophilia; and
(4) Societal Concerns
Definition of Pedophilia in Psychology
According to the American Psychiatric Association (2007), pedophilia is classified under the general category of paraphilias which are defined as , “ ..mental disorder characterized by sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving non-human objects, suffering or humiliation, children or non consenting person.”
The distinction between psychiatry and psychology can be a gray area, however psychiatry is a medical field which offers diagnoses, preventions, and treatment of mental illnesses, thus the diagnostic definition is warranted. However, psychology (in its classic form), studies the behaviors and processes of the mind. It is through psychology that one is able to distinguish the indicators of pedophilia and cognitive patterns which are most germane to this debate.
Mark Gado, a New York detective who has written extensively throughout his 26 year career on criminal pedophiles states : “pedophilia is a psychological disorder that does not require, and usually does not involve, a criminal act” (Gado, 2006).
This concurs with the operational definition preferred by Richard Hall and Ryan Hall, both M.D.'s (Hall & Hall, 2007). However, though their definitions may hold true and even while a pedophile may not commit a sexual act with a child, mere possession of pornographic depictions involving children hold penalties under USA and New Zealand laws.
Definition of Pedophilia in Law
Relevant US Code includes Title 18 of the US Code, Part I , Chp.109A § 2241 Sec. C, which states:
"Whoever ... knowingly engages in a sexual act with another person who has not attained the age of 12 years, or knowingly engages in a sexual act under the circumstances described in subsections (a) and (b) with another person who has attained the age of 12 years but has not attained the age of 16 years (and is at least 4 years younger than the person so engaging), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both. If the defendant has previously been convicted of another Federal offense under this subsection, or of a State offense that would have been an offense under either such provision had the offense occurred in a Federal prison, unless the death penalty is imposed, the defendant shall be sentenced to life in prison." citation (http://trac.syr.edu/laws/18USC2241.html)
Further penalties are found in U.S. state laws. Both are based on an awareness of the rights of children and the roles of adults in society and the safety and well-being of children.
Accordingly, the New Zealand Crimes Act 1961 (Part 7, Crimes Against Religion, Morality and Public Welfare, Section 132, Sexual Conduct with Child Under 12) also adopts the US criteria, butdiffers in some details: the New Zealand Crimes Act addresses violation, attempted violation, and reason to believe an adult will commit a violation against a child.
Profiling Pedophilia
I. The pedophile:
Various theories have developed through research, about what makes a person a pedophile, or more precisely, what physiological or emotional events contribute towards an adult desiring a child. One third of researched pedophiles were once abused children, according to one study, another theory is that its neurochemical/neuropsychological and another is cognitive-environmental (Cloud, 2002). According to Barry (2007), “the last 30 years have brought radical changes in the way researchers think about pedophiles – who typically desire sex with 8- to 10- old girls and/or slightly older boys. Pedophiles are overwhelmingly male, and according to the APA pedophiles targeting boys are twice as likely to reoffend.” Pedophiles come from all walks of life: politicians, school teachers, priests, actors, janitors and so on. It has no socio-economic confinement. Pedophiles span different cultures. Hall and Hall (2007) state that “national concerns about pedophilia have grown of recent high-profile child abuse and murder cases.. “ (p. 457) and these findings are based upon pedophiles committing acts against children.
II. Child-Victims:
The impact on children of sexual child abuse and sexual violation is a stigma upon society. While some victims may, in later years, come to tolerate their situations, this is commonly due to psychological coping mechanisms whereby the child disassociates and or dislocates themselves from the abuse. Concurrently, increased numbers of post traumatic stress disorder makes itself apparent, whereby the victim relives the abuse in which their lives are affected so drastically, that other psychological afflictions manifests themselves. (Hall & Hall, 2007)
Studies have found that the children abused by pedophiles have higher measures of trauma, depression, and neurosis on standardized psychometric testing. Individuals who experience long-term abuse are significantly more likely to have affective illness (eg, depression), anxiety disorders (eg, generalized anxiety disorders, posttraumatic stress disorder, panic attacks), eating disorders (anorexia in females), substance abuse, personality disorders, and/or adjustment disorders and to make suicidal gestures or actually engage in serious suicide attempts than those who are not abused. These children often have problems with long-term intimacy and feelings of guilt and shame over their role in the incident ( Hall & Hall, 2007).
Longitudinal studies have been conducted in order to have a developmental understanding of the impact of pedophilia. Such studies have produced a direct correlation of dysfunction in adult survivors of pedophilic acts (Simpkin, Tran & Haydon, 2007). Post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a common affliction of adult survivors of child sexual abuse. Depression, mania, paranoia, relationship difficulties, personality disorders and even suicide have been greatly linked to teenagers and adults who have been prey to pedophile/s. Over time the body heals, but the mind does not. Trust is abused in the child.
III. Societal Concerns:
Pro-Pedophilia organisations such as NAMBLA (I will not post the website or reference as I do not condone the content of these organizations) appeal to society in the guise of love, caring, and the understanding of adult-child relationships, or attempted relationships. These organisations seek social sympathy and acceptance, in order to over-turn psychological diagnostics and statistics as well as trying to initiate law changes. These organizations seek to normalize sexual relations with children. Yet in 2005, 7 NAMBLA affiliates (http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=46784) were arrested in Los Angeles for attempting to partake in a cruise whereby they would have a weekend of sexual relations with boys as young as 9 years old. The message being, if society does not agree, then we shall continue regardless. This is an obvious acknowledgement that pedophiles do understand that society is aware of their activities.
In contrast to the ridiculous claim that NO studies are found on the sex trade worldwide, the United Nations (UN) and international human rights groups (Amnesty International and Anti-Slavery International 2004; Human Rights Watch 2004; United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime 2005 have variously concluded that “Trafficking in persons is, in itself, a human rights violation, and one which can result in a series of further abuses, involving debt-bondage, forced labour and slavery-like conditions, as well as rape, torture, imprisonment and evenmurder. They estimate that 700,000 people worldwide are trafficked into forced labour and prostitution each year, and a more recent United States government estimates support this figure” (Fergus, 2005).
Society is aware of pedophilia. Steps are taken within society to caution children of pedophiles such as “stranger danger”. Parents take a responsibility for their children, schools take a responsibility for their students. This is in the hope that their child or children do not fall prey or victim to pedophiles. Does society misunderstand pedophilia? No.
Conclusion
I have introduced the three main players of this debate: Pedophile, Child and Society. One of the most common excuses for pedophiles is that “the child wanted it” implying some kind of love-bond which eventuated to inappropriate behaviour (instigated by the pedophile). It functions around an adult wanting to believe that a child wants their advances. In many cases, no trust factor is built between the pedophile and child. But in most cases (Hall & Hall, 2007) a pedophile gains trust, friendship and even love from a child before violating them. Society understands this. That is why society has laws in place to protect children, and that is why the field of psychiatry and psychology conduct ongoing research to benefit society, gaining a greater understanding of pedophilia.
Bibliography
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