How does god feel about human pain, sufering, poverty, sickness?

[blazer]

God either is omni-benevolent or is not? Regardless which scenario, many mysteies remains unaswered. Besides, since human beings beings are imperfect, not all-loving, sinful, prone to evil, deviation and mistakes on a constant continuous basis, it would not make since for god to use his omni-benevolent power because automatically HUMANITY FREE-WILL is ekiminated in order to have a utopian world free of pain, suffering, evil, sickness, poverty, and everything we know and don't yet comprehend.

Just because all these non- benevolent problems exist in our society, this does not rule out god's existence in any shape or form. He gave us free-will, which means all our actions are subjective, different, individualized, and based on choice which may or may reflect god's will (totality) on what is or isn't?

Ultimately, even if god is omni-benevolent and perfect, what makes it so. What makes his morals, standards, will, objectives, etc higher and more suitable than humans IF HE NEVER HAS CAME TO EARTH IN A PHYSICAL FORM AND SHOWED US OR BETTER YET, TOOK US A FIELD TRIP TO SEE WHAT HIS ALMIGHTY KINGDOM IS LIKE COMPARED TO WHAT EXIST HERE ON EARTH.

Finally, as to the questions as to how does god feel about the all the problems we have here on Earth is rather complex and difficult. If he had a major plan for our existence and is waiting to see how good or bad things get before he decide to step in to congratulate us or shake things up to clean house.

But if does not exist, did not create us, or is out of the question like atheist and non-believers believe, then all the problems we have can not be objectively good or bad. They all considered subjective. On top of that, they would all all be man-made, no more satan, devil, lucifer, god punishment for sinning and not believing, thy don't exist. Everything we consider good or bad would be subjective, man-made, unproven becuase there is no standard of comparison eg we have not seen other sentient life-forms, extraterrestrials, aliens, spirits, gods, higher powers, etc.

[blazer]

There is so many questions to answer.

[Malintent]

But if does not exist, did not create us, or is out of the question like atheist and non-believers believe, then all the problems we have can not be objectively good or bad. They all considered subjective. On top of that, they would all all be man-made, no more satan, devil, lucifer, god punishment for sinning and not believing, thy don't exist. Everything we consider good or bad would be subjective, man-made, unproven becuase there is no standard of comparison eg we have not seen other sentient life-forms, extraterrestrials, aliens, spirits, gods, higher powers, etc.

Correct. Morals are human-invented and subjective. Humans have created societies that dictate what is moral and what is not... and they are culturally based on the betterment of the population. Why is that a problem?

[blazer]

It is a problem because humans keep complaining, making excuses, blaming satan the devil for everything, getting angry with god and ruling out his existence and taking responsibility. If god does not exist, then everything that has occured, is occuring, and will occur good or not IS ALL HUMANITY'S FAULT. We can't blame nobody but ourselves because we have free-will, the power to change, recreate, undo, etc.

[Kharakov]

If god does not exist, then everything that has occured, is occuring, and will occur good or not IS ALL HUMANITY'S FAULT. We can't blame nobody but ourselves because we have free-will, the power to change, recreate, undo, etc.

I don't see how it matters if our behaviors are caused by experiences caused by the natural world (evolution) or God: they are still preceded by causes outside of our control: we did not dictate what mental abilities we would have, what benevolent and malevolent desires we have, etc. so cannot truly be held responsible for our actions. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't lock someone up (or kill 'em) if they do stuff we believe is detrimental to us in order to prevent them from doing these actions. If someone is going to keep raping children, it doesn't matter that they can't help themselves, go ahead and kill 'em or lock 'em up.

Of course, if those in power approve of child-rape, they can use their power to kill those who defend children from rape, so... you know...

[DancesWithCoffeeCups]

It is a problem because humans keep complaining, making excuses, blaming satan the devil for everything, getting angry with god and ruling out his existence and taking responsibility. If god does not exist, then everything that has occured, is occuring, and will occur good or not IS ALL HUMANITY'S FAULT. We can't blame nobody but ourselves because we have free-will, the power to change, recreate, undo, etc.

Humans are indeed responsible for their actions both good and bad. No god(s) required. No devils or goblins either.

[Malintent]

It is a problem because humans keep complaining, making excuses, blaming satan the devil for everything, getting angry with god and ruling out his existence and taking responsibility. If god does not exist, then everything that has occured, is occuring, and will occur good or not IS ALL HUMANITY'S FAULT. We can't blame nobody but ourselves because we have free-will, the power to change, recreate, undo, etc.

Perhaps theists do this. I wouldn't know. I don't have an invisible friend I can blame for why a cookie is missing from the jar.

Why don't people take control of their socio-political environment more? I think it is one of two things: Fear, or Laziness.

And this thing you say people have called "free will"... I don't necessarily believe such a thing actually exists. Can you give me an example of this?

[Blackbird]

That's the price god had to pay to give us free will. Man chose, for example, to have sex with monkeys, which in turn led to aids, which in turn led to the innocent suffering. God can't stop this since it was due to our free will. If he intervened, he would take away our free will.

The only thing that I think has merit, as far as the problem of evil goes, is the fact that there exists natural disasters.

[premjan]

I thought AIDS was due to eating monkeys (and then conversion of SIDS to AIDS) rather than having sex with them.

[Anaximanchild]

Man chose, for example, to have sex with monkeys, which in turn led to aids, ...

It's god's fault for making them so damn sexy ...


Oh, did i say that out loud? :blush:

God can't stop this since it was due to our free will. If he intervened, he would take away our free will.

I don't kill people. Do I have free will? Is killing people necessary for free will?

(in case you're wondering, the answers are yes, and no)

[mrunicycler]

I thought a monkey (or one of our evolutionary cousins) attacked a human, and the virus was spread that way (by bite).

[Blackbird]

Man chose, for example, to have sex with monkeys, which in turn led to aids, ...

It's god's fault for making them so damn sexy ...


Oh, did i say that out loud? :blush:

God can't stop this since it was due to our free will. If he intervened, he would take away our free will.

I don't kill people. Do I have free will? Is killing people necessary for free will?

(in case you're wondering, the answers are yes, and no)

Yes it is necessary because humans can do whatever they want if they have free will. God cannot stop any of our actions. A few of the possible choices we can make are: murder, raping monkeys, etc.

I don't follow your logic.

[Kharakov]

I've read that a male researcher isolated monkey pheromones from a monkey in heat and one of their lab assistants played a practical joke on one of their male colleagues that went horribly wrong.

[Anaximanchild]

I don't kill people. Do I have free will? Is killing people necessary for free will?

(in case you're wondering, the answers are yes, and no)

Yes it is necessary because humans can do whatever they want if they have free will. God cannot stop any of our actions. A few of the possible choices we can make are: murder, raping monkeys, etc.

It is necessary for us to kill other people in order to have free will?! Well, like I said, I've never killed anyone. So that means I don't have free will? What if everyone in the world decided not to kill anyone else. Would we no longer have free will?

I think what you mean is that it is necessary for us to be allowed to kill people if we want. But is it necessary that we want to kill?

No one wants to eat dog crap (well not anyone I know, and I think it's safe to say it's pretty rare). Are we not free because we don't eat dog crap? Are we not free because we don't want to eat dog crap? If there is a creator god out there, he created us to dislike eating dog crap. Why didn't he also make us to dislike killing each other? We can lack the desire to eat dog crap without risking our free will, why can't we lack the desire to kill, rape, steal, etc.?

[Blackbird]

Yes it is necessary because humans can do whatever they want if they have free will. God cannot stop any of our actions. A few of the possible choices we can make are: murder, raping monkeys, etc.

It is necessary for us to kill other people in order to have free will?! Well, like I said, I've never killed anyone. So that means I don't have free will? What if everyone in the world decided not to kill anyone else. Would we no longer have free will?

I think what you mean is that it is necessary for us to be allowed to kill people if we want. But is it necessary that we want to kill?

No one wants to eat dog crap (well not anyone I know, and I think it's safe to say it's pretty rare). Are we not free because we don't eat dog crap? Are we not free because we don't want to eat dog crap? If there is a creator god out there, he created us to dislike eating dog crap. Why didn't he also make us to dislike killing each other? We can lack the desire to eat dog crap without risking our free will, why can't we lack the desire to kill, rape, steal, etc.?

No, sorry, I suppose I left out the key word: allow. It is necessary for god to allow us to do anything we choose. Killing a man is a possible choice, so he has no power to stop us from murdering people; that is, if he wants us to have free will.

[DancesWithCoffeeCups]

It is necessary for us to kill other people in order to have free will?! Well, like I said, I've never killed anyone. So that means I don't have free will? What if everyone in the world decided not to kill anyone else. Would we no longer have free will?

I think what you mean is that it is necessary for us to be allowed to kill people if we want. But is it necessary that we want to kill?

No one wants to eat dog crap (well not anyone I know, and I think it's safe to say it's pretty rare). Are we not free because we don't eat dog crap? Are we not free because we don't want to eat dog crap? If there is a creator god out there, he created us to dislike eating dog crap. Why didn't he also make us to dislike killing each other? We can lack the desire to eat dog crap without risking our free will, why can't we lack the desire to kill, rape, steal, etc.?

No, sorry, I suppose I left out the key word: allow. It is necessary for god to allow us to do anything we choose. Killing a man is a possible choice, so he has no power to stop us from murdering people; that is, if he wants us to have free will.

Therefore this particular version of god allows pain and suffering, etc. See how easy that was?

[Anaximanchild]

It is necessary for us to kill other people in order to have free will?! Well, like I said, I've never killed anyone. So that means I don't have free will? What if everyone in the world decided not to kill anyone else. Would we no longer have free will?

I think what you mean is that it is necessary for us to be allowed to kill people if we want. But is it necessary that we want to kill?

No one wants to eat dog crap (well not anyone I know, and I think it's safe to say it's pretty rare). Are we not free because we don't eat dog crap? Are we not free because we don't want to eat dog crap? If there is a creator god out there, he created us to dislike eating dog crap. Why didn't he also make us to dislike killing each other? We can lack the desire to eat dog crap without risking our free will, why can't we lack the desire to kill, rape, steal, etc.?

No, sorry, I suppose I left out the key word: allow. It is necessary for god to allow us to do anything we choose. Killing a man is a possible choice, so he has no power to stop us from murdering people; that is, if he wants us to have free will.

Right, but why must we want to murder? Why didn't he make us so that we didn't want to murder? There are so many things that we don't want to do, why not add that to the list?

Another thing, it's not the wanting to murder that causes the pain. It's not even the trying. It's the succeeding. Why doesn't god just whisper in our ear "Psst. That guy's about to try to kill you." or "Hey. Better keep an eye on your kid today. Someone's going to try to grab him." The free will of the perpetrator is intact, and the pain is averted.

If god exists, he's one sick fucker to allow all of this to happen.

[Kharakov]

If god exists, he's one sick fucker to allow all of this to happen.
Mortal life is God's HBO/Showtime original drama show. Mortals: here today, gone tomorrow, don't have to worry about them feeling bad forever, so they might as well not exist except as entertainment for immortals.

The thing is, to be immortal and bored forever is a greater evil than to cause mortals to exist and compete with one another for your entertainment. Sorry, it's a gruesome reality, but that's God's life for you. In fact, mortal evil is so fleeting, and its benefits so great (alleviation of boredom for immortals), that it really is part of the greater good (unless you happen to be a mortal being). Who knows, maybe the whole Jesus bullshit was a way of mortals retiring to immortality after spending their mortal life entertaining immortals, but maybe it's just more bullshit.

[Malintent]

It is necessary for us to kill other people in order to have free will?! Well, like I said, I've never killed anyone. So that means I don't have free will? What if everyone in the world decided not to kill anyone else. Would we no longer have free will?

I think what you mean is that it is necessary for us to be allowed to kill people if we want. But is it necessary that we want to kill?

No one wants to eat dog crap (well not anyone I know, and I think it's safe to say it's pretty rare). Are we not free because we don't eat dog crap? Are we not free because we don't want to eat dog crap? If there is a creator god out there, he created us to dislike eating dog crap. Why didn't he also make us to dislike killing each other? We can lack the desire to eat dog crap without risking our free will, why can't we lack the desire to kill, rape, steal, etc.?

No, sorry, I suppose I left out the key word: allow. It is necessary for god to allow us to do anything we choose. Killing a man is a possible choice, so he has no power to stop us from murdering people; that is, if he wants us to have free will.

Well if this supposed god exists, did it create the universe and all its laws? If so, then how dare he take away my free will with respect to:

Breathing water
Walking on air
Not growing physically older than 30 years
Living forever
Reading other people's minds
Being fully understood by animals
Turning myself into anything
Running / flying faster than the speed of light

There is no free will, only the will that this alleged creator god thing has allowed us. We are severely limited. Free will my ass!

[Blackbird]

I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate here, which I'm sure all of you suspected (though perhaps not), but all I have to do in order to win is say that Satan exists, which, sadly, many Christians believe, and that entirely solves the problem of evil.

(Yes there are many problems with the idea of Satan given that god is all powerful, etc, but regardless....)

[Malintent]

I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate here, which I'm sure all of you suspected (though perhaps not), but all I have to do in order to win is say that Satan exists, which, sadly, many Christians believe, and that entirely solves the problem of evil.

(Yes there are many problems with the idea of Satan given that god is all powerful, etc, but regardless....)

I know of no one that asserts that the "natural laws" are products of Satan. God set up the rules, allegedly, which I assert violates my free will (to violate said laws).

[Anaximanchild]

I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate here, which I'm sure all of you suspected (though perhaps not), but all I have to do in order to win is say that Satan exists, which, sadly, many Christians believe, and that entirely solves the problem of evil.

Only if god didn't create satan, which I believe is not common belief.

[Blackbird]

You guys are underestimating Satan, lol.

The world could have been fine (no natural disasters, no impulse for doing evil things, etc.) before Satan become evil himself. And, of course, after Satan became evil, he created all of the evil things in the world.

Satan gets rid of the problem of evil, I'm sorry.

[Kharakov]

You guys are underestimating Satan, lol.

The world could have been fine (no natural disasters, no impulse for doing evil things, etc.) before Satan become evil himself. And, of course, after Satan became evil, he created all of the evil things in the world.

Satan gets rid of the problem of evil, I'm sorry.
What, besides evil and ignorance, is interesting?

[Anaximanchild]

You guys are underestimating Satan, lol.

The world could have been fine (no natural disasters, no impulse for doing evil things, etc.) before Satan become evil himself. And, of course, after Satan became evil, he created all of the evil things in the world.

Satan gets rid of the problem of evil, I'm sorry.

So satan is responsible for the evil things in the world because he created them. Hmm ... (I'm sure you know what comes next)



And there's no need to apologize. ;)

[rizdek]

[QUOTE=Blackbird;5321829]That's the price god had to pay to give us free will. QUOTE]

Did god have to forever doom man with inbred sin because of two peoples mistakes in the GOE? What's with that? It seems for the sake of justice, each should get the same change AnE had or is there something obscene about giving everyone a fair and equal chance to either "make mistakes" or not "make mistakes" without the leech of a "sinful" nature which befell mankind when adam and eve sinned? And, what's with the serpent deal? It seems a little perverse on god's part to place so much obvious temptation in the way of AnE. Why not just let them "decide" on their own?

Oh wait a minute, I remember, it was his plan all along. From before creation god, jesus and the holy spirit planned it all. Just read 1Peter. From the GOE failure, to the flood where all except noah and a handful of animals are drowned, through the israelites wandering around either slaughtering, or being slaughtered by, their neighbors. And how could he have humans slaughtering and roasting small livestock for thousands of years for the sake of redeeming them for sins if he didn't arrange for them to be likely to sin in the first place? And then, how could he culminate his great master plan where his son gets to come to earth and be a human sacrifice and be brutally whipped and killed. It seems your god has a real lust for blood. That's the only thing that gets his attention and makes him happy. And every few weeks in most christian churches across the world, people celebrate this human sacrifice by pretending to eat the flesh and drink the blood of jesus all in a somber glorious ritual.

[Penelope]

I think there's another point here: xianity depends on the idea of the crucifixion: that god actually shared in our suffering and death. This is what makes it unique in the pantheon of other religions. Xianity's neat trick of fudging the issue with christ (is he god, is he man?) means that the story of suffering and death, which makes most of us here on this board turn against religion, is the one issue ixanity holds up its hands and says, yes, so what, I suffered too. It's the path to heaven; think of all those saints being tortured to death. It positively encourages the masochistic pov: suffering is holy, religious, worthy. It'll get you to heaven, if you try hard enough. A wonderful con trick, which turns normal human instinct for survival topsy-turvey. Would that I could make as much money (as the church has) from such an idea!

[Baalazel]

You guys are underestimating Satan, lol.

The world could have been fine (no natural disasters, no impulse for doing evil things, etc.) before Satan become evil himself. And, of course, after Satan became evil, he created all of the evil things in the world.

Satan gets rid of the problem of evil, I'm sorry.


We Pagans realize that Satan is a Christian god and so the PoW is laid squarely on their shoulders. As they can't seem to solve the problem their entire theological world view is proved false.

Should any one of them provide a reasonable explanation for the existence, actions, and powers of Satan I would be clad to take a less hard position. My experience tells me that no such explanation is forthcoming.

Baal

[mikumiku]

Well how does God feel about these things? It is an interesting question, since if we assume God exists, and we take the full definition of eternal omniscience, eternal omnipotence, eternal or timeless existence. Then it stands to reason all that exists is within God's mind, it's he who would be the prime mover of the whole world, everything his thoughts and ideas, information. All possible information in a vast infinite structure whose 'patterns' or 'relationships' generate , are linked, to qualia such as the 'feeling of the passage of time' or 'redness', 'pain' or 'love'.

There would be infinite instantiations of all possible states for all possible minds, like a living fractal tree that you never finish traversing, yet it seems the same over and over again.

That's why not many people like the idea that everything that can possibly exist, exists, that everything that can possibly occur, occurs. Because then you have infinite atrocities, and it is inevitable that they were, are and will be.

[blazer]

Once again, we absolutely can't blame the devil, satan, lucifer, bad luck, or chance for everything that goes wrong. These excuses for humanity pain, suffering, chaos, unhappiness, and stupidity has no moral grounds whatsoever. Neither god or satan
forced these attrocities on bad karma on us. In fact, more than 90% of our woes could be just plain ignorance, negligence, and foolishness; a trait all mankind possesses and regularly use just because he can!

By the way, as to how god feels about these problems is rather perplexing. But most data seems to indicate that at the time currently, he has chosen neither to come down here on Earth or send someone with miraculous probelsm to shows because once again, man is too foolish to handle such.

For example, when the person comes, people would deny, or just because of their race, religion, creed, sex, values, etc hatred, discrimination, jealousy, intolerance, envy occurs. We live in society where certain people are unwanted, unacceptable, rejected, and turned away. The society does not want them participating or having active role.

I guess god would just rather let us destroy ourselves.

[Solo]

I think there's another point here: xianity depends on the idea of the crucifixion: that god actually shared in our suffering and death. This is what makes it unique in the pantheon of other religions. Xianity's neat trick of fudging the issue with christ (is he god, is he man?) means that the story of suffering and death, which makes most of us here on this board turn against religion, is the one issue ixanity holds up its hands and says, yes, so what, I suffered too. It's the path to heaven; think of all those saints being tortured to death. It positively encourages the masochistic pov: suffering is holy, religious, worthy. It'll get you to heaven, if you try hard enough. A wonderful con trick, which turns normal human instinct for survival topsy-turvey. Would that I could make as much money (as the church has) from such an idea!

I don't think X-ty came about "fudging the issue" or for the church to make a business out of religion. That's a sad misapprehension.

Humans suffered before Xty and outside of it. Maybe all that it took to create the "miracle of Christ" was for one man to relate his own suffering to another man's. He stepped forth a declared that God loves us and that one proves that by acting as a spiritual being, by caring for those no-one cares for. Why would anyone want to argue with that ?

Ok, take God out of it if he bothers you and act like a human being in a community of human beings !

I am sure if you do that for a while you will have no issue with people inventing God if it's for that purpose.

Jiri

[djrafikie]

I have a massive problem with people inventing god. It's nothing but a get out clause for those to weak to cope with real life (IN MY OPINION, stated in capitals, for the sake of clarity).

[Solo]

I have a massive problem with people inventing god. It's nothing but a get out clause for those to weak to cope with real life (IN MY OPINION, stated in capitals, for the sake of clarity).

You have problem with people inventing god: you mean 'with Jews '? :rolleyes:

Jiri

[mikumiku]

"That's the price god had to pay to give us free will."-Blackbird

Did god have to forever doom man with inbred sin because of two peoples mistakes in the GOE? What's with that? It seems for the sake of justice, each should get the same change AnE had or is there something obscene about giving everyone a fair and equal chance to either "make mistakes" or not "make mistakes" without the leech of a "sinful" nature which befell mankind when adam and eve sinned? And, what's with the serpent deal? It seems a little perverse on god's part to place so much obvious temptation in the way of AnE. Why not just let them "decide" on their own?

Oh wait a minute, I remember, it was his plan all along. From before creation god, jesus and the holy spirit planned it all. Just read 1Peter. From the GOE failure, to the flood where all except noah and a handful of animals are drowned, through the israelites wandering around either slaughtering, or being slaughtered by, their neighbors. And how could he have humans slaughtering and roasting small livestock for thousands of years for the sake of redeeming them for sins if he didn't arrange for them to be likely to sin in the first place? And then, how could he culminate his great master plan where his son gets to come to earth and be a human sacrifice and be brutally whipped and killed. It seems your god has a real lust for blood. That's the only thing that gets his attention and makes him happy. And every few weeks in most christian churches across the world, people celebrate this human sacrifice by pretending to eat the flesh and drink the blood of jesus all in a somber glorious ritual.

WELL PUT!

[mikumiku]

I have a massive problem with people inventing god. It's nothing but a get out clause for those to weak to cope with real life (IN MY OPINION, stated in capitals, for the sake of clarity).

Depends on what you mean by 'inventing', if you build an artificial God, I guess you can't have a problem with that?

[Anaximanchild]

If free will was so important (ie more important than prevention of evil), why would god punish us for using it?

[blazer]

[QUOTE=Anaximanchild;5332068]If free will was so important (ie more important than prevention of evil), why would god punish us for using it?[/QUOTE

just becuase, just because, just becuase.

[Blackbird]

You guys are underestimating Satan, lol.

The world could have been fine (no natural disasters, no impulse for doing evil things, etc.) before Satan become evil himself. And, of course, after Satan became evil, he created all of the evil things in the world.

Satan gets rid of the problem of evil, I'm sorry.

So satan is responsible for the evil things in the world because he created them. Hmm ... (I'm sure you know what comes next)



And there's no need to apologize. ;)

God created Satan originally as an angel (with free will).

So there still isn't a problem of evil.

[thentian]

So satan is responsible for the evil things in the world because he created them. Hmm ... (I'm sure you know what comes next)



And there's no need to apologize. ;)

God created Satan originally as an angel (with free will).

So there still isn't a problem of evil.

Got any scriptural evidence for this? Note that Matthew 7:18 says, "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit." How could the "bad fruit" of Satan have come from the "good tree" of God?"

[dr lazer blast]

I actually wanted to respond this thread for quite a while. I assume that God doesn't like the bad stuff that goes on in the world, but everyone has consequences for their actions, also a group of people have consequences for their actions, a the leaders of nations have consequences for their actions, and sometimes people suffer the consequences of somebody elses actions.

We do it to ourselves.

[thentian]

I actually wanted to respond this thread for quite a while. I assume that God doesn't like the bad stuff that goes on in the world, but everyone has consequences for their actions, also a group of people have consequences for their actions, a the leaders of nations have consequences for their actions, and sometimes people suffer the consequences of somebody elses actions.

We do it to ourselves.

Except perhaps when God does it to us in the form of hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc?

[dr lazer blast]

God created Satan originally as an angel (with free will).

So there still isn't a problem of evil.

Got any scriptural evidence for this? Note that Matthew 7:18 says, "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit." How could the "bad fruit" of Satan have come from the "good tree" of God?"

Satan was created good, satan was also created with free will i.e God beared good fruit because first satan was created good. Because of free will satan becomes his own tree. Then because of pride, satans 'tree' turned bad.

[dr lazer blast]

I actually wanted to respond this thread for quite a while. I assume that God doesn't like the bad stuff that goes on in the world, but everyone has consequences for their actions, also a group of people have consequences for their actions, a the leaders of nations have consequences for their actions, and sometimes people suffer the consequences of somebody elses actions.

We do it to ourselves.

Except perhaps when God does it to us in the form of hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc?

who says God does that?

however, for arguments sake lets say that God does do that. Well it would be because the actions of the group of people. California just legalized same sex marriages, could a huge earthquake happen in the near future to that state and other natural disasters in the other states for not doing what God asks. Its possible considering the Noahs flood, however something leads me to believe that tsunamis and hurricans are just nature being nature.

[thentian]

Got any scriptural evidence for this? Note that Matthew 7:18 says, "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit." How could the "bad fruit" of Satan have come from the "good tree" of God?"

Satan was created good, satan was also created with free will i.e God beared good fruit because first satan was created good. Because of free will satan becomes his own tree. Then because of pride, satans 'tree' turned bad.

"For if we believe it to be true, that God foreknows and foreordains all things; that He can be neither deceived nor hindered in His Prescience and Predestination; and that nothing can take place but according to His Will, (which reason herself is compelled to confess; ) then, even according to the testimony of reason herself, there can be no ‘Free will’ - in man, in angel, or in any creature!"

Martin Luther: The Bondage of the Will

I guess you're not a Lutheran, then.

[thentian]

Except perhaps when God does it to us in the form of hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc?

who says God does that?

however, for arguments sake lets say that God does do that. Well it would be because the actions of the group of people. California just legalized same sex marriages, could a huge earthquake happen in the near future to that state and other natural disasters in the other states for not doing what God asks. Its possible considering the Noahs flood, however something leads me to believe that tsunamis and hurricans are just nature being nature.

I was just asking your opinion. (Hence the question mark). Which you just gave! I, too, think it is just nature, so we have no quarrel on that, I guess. :)

[dr lazer blast]

Satan was created good, satan was also created with free will i.e God beared good fruit because first satan was created good. Because of free will satan becomes his own tree. Then because of pride, satans 'tree' turned bad.

"For if we believe it to be true, that God foreknows and foreordains all things; that He can be neither deceived nor hindered in His Prescience and Predestination; and that nothing can take place but according to His Will, (which reason herself is compelled to confess; ) then, even according to the testimony of reason herself, there can be no ‘Free will’ - in man, in angel, or in any creature!"

Martin Luther: The Bondage of the Will

I guess you're not a Lutheran, then.

well if you look at it from Gods point of view there isn't any free will, we can only look at things from a human point of view, but let me give you an example. If God didn't know everything, but knew a lot more than us, how would you know the difference?

[thentian]

well if you look at it from Gods point of view there isn't any free will, we can only look at things from a human point of view, but let me give you an example. If God didn't know everything, but knew a lot more than us, how would you know the difference?

We wouldn't know the difference, of course, and should always strive to do our best whatever the case is.

However, the philosophical problems don't go away if it is only from his perspective that we don't have free-will. How can God justly punish us for our sins if we don't have freewill? If God created you the way you are, knowing full well what all your actions and thoughts would be, how is it not God's own doing what you think and do?

[sschlichter]

But if does not exist, did not create us, or is out of the question like atheist and non-believers believe, then all the problems we have can not be objectively good or bad. They all considered subjective. On top of that, they would all all be man-made, no more satan, devil, lucifer, god punishment for sinning and not believing, thy don't exist. Everything we consider good or bad would be subjective, man-made, unproven becuase there is no standard of comparison eg we have not seen other sentient life-forms, extraterrestrials, aliens, spirits, gods, higher powers, etc.

Correct. Morals are human-invented and subjective. Humans have created societies that dictate what is moral and what is not... and they are culturally based on the betterment of the population. Why is that a problem?

Were talking about earth, right?

[patcleaver]

Some ignorant primitive delusinal savage in the jungle paints his face white and starts worshiping a rock.

Then the savage might wonder - How does the rock feel about human pain, suffering, poverty, and sickness?

I think the best answer is that the rock really doesn't care about those things.