Split from SL, What if it's true?

[MrTunaFace]

split from here (http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=243867)


It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that God doesn't exist and that the Bible is a fairy tale and not to trust Christians? Is that fair? What if the God of the Bible is real and Heaven and Hell is real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no God and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hell for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?

[Bartender]

It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that God doesn't exist and that the Bible is a fairy tale and not to trust Christians? Is that fair? What if the God of the Bible is real and Heaven and Hell is real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no God and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hell for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?

I'm an atheist and my son is now 9 years old. The subject of religion very rarely comes up but when it does I explain that my beliefs are just that, mine. I also explain to him that he is free to believe whatever he choses to. I really don't believe agnostic or atheist parents tell their children that the bible is a fairy tale or not to trust Christians unless they are insensitive jerks. That may be the case with some but I would hope it would be a very small minority.

The same could be said of Christian parents; it seems to me that it would be equally wrong for them to tell their children not to trust agnostics or atheists.

As for a child growing up as an atheist and rotting in hell for eternity? I find that part of Christianity laughable.

[MrTunaFace]

It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that God doesn't exist and that the Bible is a fairy tale and not to trust Christians? Is that fair? What if the God of the Bible is real and Heaven and Hell is real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no God and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hell for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?

I'm an atheist and my son is now 9 years old. The subject of religion very rarely comes up but when it does I explain that my beliefs are just that, mine. I also explain to him that he is free to believe whatever he choses to. I really don't believe agnostic or atheist parents tell their children that the bible is a fairy tale or not to trust Christians unless they are insensitive jerks. That may be the case with some but I would hope it would be a very small minority.

The same could be said of Christian parents; it seems to me that it would be equally wrong for them to tell their children not to trust agnostics or atheists.

As for a child growing up as an atheist and rotting in hell for eternity? I find that part of Christianity laughable.

Laughable huh? What if it is true? (WHAT IF?) Those parents have just condemned their child to Hell for eternity right? Is that fair?

Yes, it is wrong for parents of any religion/faith/belief/lack of belief to force anything on their children.

[Bartender]

Laughable huh? What if it is true? (WHAT IF?) Those parents have just condemned their child to Hell for eternity right? Is that fair?

Yes, it is wrong for parents of any religion/faith/belief/lack of belief to force anything on their children.


Yes, the teaching of eternal damnation is laughable. I would never subject my child to such superstitious nonsense. If he asked to go to church I would allow him to attend but I would also recommend he explore different religions before settling on a certain one. He will make those choices when he is ready.

He is not of an age were he can make a cognizant choice about religious beliefs. And I am certainly not going to indoctrinate him in some 2000 year old religion that even its own followers can't agree on.

[MrTunaFace]

Laughable huh? What if it is true? (WHAT IF?) Those parents have just condemned their child to Hell for eternity right? Is that fair?

Yes, it is wrong for parents of any religion/faith/belief/lack of belief to force anything on their children.


Yes, the teaching of eternal damnation is laughable. I would never subject my child to such superstitious nonsense. If he asked to go to church I would allow him to attend but I would also recommend he explore different religions before settling on a certain one. He will make those choices when he is ready.

He is not of an age were he can make a cognizant choice about religious beliefs. And I am certainly not going to indoctrinate him in some 2000 year old religion that even its own followers can't agree on.

Good for you. I never said you had to indoctrinate your kid in anything. That would be wrong. So what if he were to choose Christianity, would you be pissed off at him for it?

[Bartender]

Good for you. I never said you had to indoctrinate your kid in anything. That would be wrong. So what if he were to choose Christianity, would you be pissed off at him for it?

Absolutely not. He is free to choose and to believe or disbelieve whatever he chooses.

[Hyndis]

It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that God doesn't exist and that the Bible is a fairy tale and not to trust Christians? Is that fair? What if the God of the Bible is real and Heaven and Hell is real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no God and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hell for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?

It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that Zeus doesn't exist and that the Zeus is a fairy tale and not to trust Zeus' worshipers? Is that fair? What if Zeus is real and Elysian Fields and Hades are real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no Zeus and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hades for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?



See what I did there? Simply replace one set of nouns with another, referring to another set of mythology, and you have the exact same kind of argument for another religion that nearly everyone todays considers is false.

Why is your religion special? Why is your particular flavor of the Abrahamic god true, and every other religion on the planet false?

From where I sit, I don't see one bit of difference between Zeus and the Christian god. Muslims will argue that their god is true and the Christian god is false. Christians say their god is true and the Muslim god is false. And so on and so forth...

Again, why is your god special? What does your set of mythology have that no other mythology has?

[GenesisNemesis]

split from here (http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=243867)


It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that God doesn't exist and that the Bible is a fairy tale and not to trust Christians? Is that fair? What if the God of the Bible is real and Heaven and Hell is real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no God and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hell for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?

Does it have to be fair? In my opinion, parents can do what they want with their children so long as it doesn't abuse or injure them in any "physical" way.

[joedad]

I'm an atheist and my son is now 9 years old. The subject of religion very rarely comes up but when it does I explain that my beliefs are just that, mine. I also explain to him that he is free to believe whatever he choses to. I really don't believe agnostic or atheist parents tell their children that the bible is a fairy tale or not to trust Christians unless they are insensitive jerks. That may be the case with some but I would hope it would be a very small minority.

The same could be said of Christian parents; it seems to me that it would be equally wrong for them to tell their children not to trust agnostics or atheists.

As for a child growing up as an atheist and rotting in hell for eternity? I find that part of Christianity laughable.Laughable huh? What if it is true? (WHAT IF?) Those parents have just condemned their child to Hell for eternity right? Is that fair?

Yes, it is wrong for parents of any religion/faith/belief/lack of belief to force anything on their children.If there were gods and hells we’d all know. There’d be no need to be taught these things.

If gods were real, religious snake oil salesmen would be out of a job. The fact that religious people come to my front door selling their gods is proof to me that their gods aren’t real.

[MrTunaFace]

It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that God doesn't exist and that the Bible is a fairy tale and not to trust Christians? Is that fair? What if the God of the Bible is real and Heaven and Hell is real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no God and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hell for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?

It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that Zeus doesn't exist and that the Zeus is a fairy tale and not to trust Zeus' worshipers? Is that fair? What if Zeus is real and Elysian Fields and Hades are real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no Zeus and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hades for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?



See what I did there? Simply replace one set of nouns with another, referring to another set of mythology, and you have the exact same kind of argument for another religion that nearly everyone todays considers is false.

Why is your religion special? Why is your particular flavor of the Abrahamic god true, and every other religion on the planet false?

From where I sit, I don't see one bit of difference between Zeus and the Christian god. Muslims will argue that their god is true and the Christian god is false. Christians say their god is true and the Muslim god is false. And so on and so forth...

Again, why is your god special? What does your set of mythology have that no other mythology has?

Oh you're clever. You like putting words in my mouth don't you? Again, for the 6th or 7th time, I am not forcing my beliefs on anyone. I am simply asking questions. Is that a crime? Also, I have stated many times that I am against forcing beliefs.

I never said that there was no other God. Great job at misquoting me. I said that there is a possibility of any god of any religion or faith or even a possibility of no god at all. I never said my God is special. Did I? Can you show me the quote where I said "my God is special" I want those exact words.

Anything else you want to misquote me on?

[MrTunaFace]

split from here (http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=243867)


It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that God doesn't exist and that the Bible is a fairy tale and not to trust Christians? Is that fair? What if the God of the Bible is real and Heaven and Hell is real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no God and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hell for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?

Does it have to be fair? In my opinion, parents can do what they want with their children so long as it doesn't abuse or injure them in any "physical" way.

So any parent of any belief can brainwash their children with whatever they want? I thought atheists hated it when Christian parents "brainwashed" their kids with Christianity. But now you are for it?

[MrTunaFace]

Laughable huh? What if it is true? (WHAT IF?) Those parents have just condemned their child to Hell for eternity right? Is that fair?

Yes, it is wrong for parents of any religion/faith/belief/lack of belief to force anything on their children.If there were gods and hells we’d all know. There’d be no need to be taught these things.

If gods were real, religious snake oil salesmen would be out of a job. The fact that religious people come to my front door selling their gods is proof to me that their gods aren’t real.

How is that valid proof?

[joedad]

If there were gods and hells we’d all know. There’d be no need to be taught these things.

If gods were real, religious snake oil salesmen would be out of a job. The fact that religious people come to my front door selling their gods is proof to me that their gods aren’t real.

How is that valid proof?If a god is real, why do you think a god would use the same stupid humans to teach other same stupid humans about itself?

Isn’t that rather like a University claiming that it has on its staff a professor that has the answers to all the questions that anyone could ever ask, and that this professor instructs all the other professors?

Why would this University not just trot out this super-professor that it claims exists? The fact that the University even exists proves that it doesn’t have a super-professor, and further that there aren’t any super-professors anywhere, as demonstrated by the fact that there are Universities.

But if you believe in super-professors, and if you send me enough tuition money, I’ll teach you what the super-professor wants you to know, because I actually have the “in” on a School with a super-professor. I happen to know that there really are super-professors.

Of course, with the exception of the super-professor, the staff being just more stupid humans like ourselves, I can’t guarantee anything except that after you die you will get to meet the super-professor and then you will understand and have no more questions.

:snooze:

[Natural]

I think fear on either side of a child learning about any and all religious, & non-religious pursuits shows a great amount of insecurity.
The parent that attempts brainwash may succeed, but a smart youth may pick up on that. That fear of allowing the youth to learn may influence the youth's decision down the line.

I was forced to go to church by a stepmother for a time. My mother had us go, but explained the choice. My father simply went along w/whatever the women were doing.
Though I never knew until I asked, that my father and his father did not believe. I chose to be agnostic. (leaning heavily towards atheism)
My stepmother's influence in dragging me to church against my will definitely helped me to my original mistrust of religion. Then many other things began to sink in.

[GenesisNemesis]

So any parent of any belief can brainwash their children with whatever they want? I thought atheists hated it when Christian parents "brainwashed" their kids with Christianity. But now you are for it?

No, brainwashing isn't good.

[fatpie42]

What if it is true? (WHAT IF?) Those parents have just condemned their child to Hell for eternity right? Is that fair?


You're asking us to imagine not only that there is a God out there who sends people He doesn't like to a place of fiery punishment after they've died, but also that He would send little children to this place on the basis of what they are taught by their parents too?

And you expect us to take this rather twisted fairytale seriously? :huh:

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

split from here (http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=243867)


It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that God doesn't exist and that the Bible is a fairy tale and not to trust Christians? Is that fair? What if the God of the Bible is real and Heaven and Hell is real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no God and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hell for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?

I would have no hesitation in telling a child of mine that the bible, like all so-called "holy" books, is merely a man-made set of myths and tales from a primitive age. Children deserve to hear the truth. I wouldn't tell it god doesn't exist but I would tell it that the god of the bible (and those of other "holy" books") is at best highly unlikely to exist. I wouldn't tell it not to trust xians; there are some very trustworthy xians in the world. I would, however, strongly advise against buying the snake-oil or drinking the KoolAid.
If, after all this, my child decided to become a believer of whatever stripe, I would accept that as their decision while trying my utmost to explain why I think it's a wrong decision.
As for your "what if..hell" argument, I share Bartender's view of its risibility. The whole heaven and hell deal is just such transparent wish-fulfillment that it's impossible to take seriously.

C_M_S

[chrisengland]

It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that God doesn't exist and that the Bible is a fairy tale and not to trust Christians? Is that fair? What if the God of the Bible is real and Heaven and Hell is real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no God and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hell for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?

I'm an atheist and my son is now 9 years old. The subject of religion very rarely comes up but when it does I explain that my beliefs are just that, mine. I also explain to him that he is free to believe whatever he choses to. I really don't believe agnostic or atheist parents tell their children that the bible is a fairy tale or not to trust Christians unless they are insensitive jerks. That may be the case with some but I would hope it would be a very small minority.

The same could be said of Christian parents; it seems to me that it would be equally wrong for them to tell their children not to trust agnostics or atheists.

As for a child growing up as an atheist and rotting in hell for eternity? I find that part of Christianity laughable.

I don't come from a religious family and I was never pushed into anything.
Although my Dad does actually beleive in God and that Jesus was the son off God I think.
But he doesn't really know alot about Christianity.
I don't think most atheist and agnostics parents would shove that down their kids throughts.
Maybe some do I don't know.
Chris

[Pragmatista]

Laughable huh? What if it is true? (WHAT IF?) Those parents have just condemned their child to Hell for eternity right? Is that fair?

Is hell fair?

[Half-Life]

split from here (http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=243867)


It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that God doesn't exist and that the Bible is a fairy tale and not to trust Christians? Is that fair? What if the God of the Bible is real and Heaven and Hell is real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no God and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hell for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?

It is wrong to force anything on children no matter what your beliefs. But, what if the parents of a child tell their child that Allah doesn't exist and that the Quran is a fairy tale and not to trust Muslims? Is that fair? What if the God of the Quran is real and Heaven and Hell is real (which I believe it is) and the parents tell their child that there is no Allah and the child grows up and dies and rots in Hell for eternity? Is that fair? Shouldn't children, or anyone, be allowed to have the freedom of religion and faith?

:rolleyes:

Theists seem to getting lazier and lazier these days. God stumped on new arguments for you guys, huh? Tell you what. Pray to Jesus your absolute hardest and tell him to give you the best argument ever for his existence that no one can refute.

Surely Jesus would answer your prayer, right?

......right?

[Kassiana]

Hell isn't real and has no chance of being real, so we don't need to worry about this at all.

[Half-Life]

Hell isn't real and has no chance of being real, so we don't need to worry about this at all.

This reminds me of theists:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_yJCNNwHUOE

:rolling:

[TheRealityOfMan]

There is a scripture somewhere in the NT stating that person a might have blood on their hands if they fail to convert person b to christianity having squandered a good chance to offer up the good news.

When I was a Christian I lived in tremendous fear that I might fall foul of this scripture by sometimes deciding to be discrete and not go over to that old lady who might die soon and warn her to convert or else -and thus disclaim my responsibility over her soul.

[Pragmatista]

There is a scripture somewhere in the NT stating that person a might have blood on their hands if they fail to convert person b to christianity having squandered a good chance to offer up the good news.

When I was a Christian I lived in tremendous fear that I might fall foul of this scripture by sometimes deciding to be discrete and not go over to that old lady who might die soon and warn her to convert or else -and thus disclaim my responsibility over her soul.

I would go even further. Consider two analogous situations:

1. You know that a guy is planning on releasing poison in the town square. Maybe you have sole knowledge that he has already done so once, and you are aware of his capabilities and plans.

2. You know that a guy is planning on speaking heresy in the town square. Maybe you have sole knowledge that he has already done so once, and you are aware of his capabilities and plans.

In the first case, the person is making an immediate threat to the lives of the townspeople, including innocent children. In the second case, he is making an immediate and mortal threat to the eternal life of their souls.

Which is more serious? Which one justifies a police investigation and possible prosecution? What if you call the police and they don't take it seriously. Would you be responsible for taking drastic action, including the use of physical force, to prevent the person from carrying out their threat?

[Gawen]

Please note that MrTunaFace is no longer with us.

[Pragmatista]

Please note that MrTunaFace is no longer with us.

Dang small print. I always forget to look. Thanks!