Bible History Versus Documented Texts

[Kelly]

There is tablet from the Atrahasis Epic deals with the Flood story. I know many of you realistically doubt the Biblical tale of Noah, and this is one of the original stories about the Flood as it was actually written. In the Bible story we are told that God made a flood in order to kill off giants that had overrun the world but that certainly is not what the other Middle Eastern texts which are far older that the Bible have to say. They say "the gods" created the floods for the purpose of getting rid of human beings, and there is no mention of giants in the tales. I just thought all of you might be interested in reading some of the original versions from these texts. They are rather revealing, and tend to support the conclusion that many people on this forum hold that the Bible version of history has been manipulated by the priesthoods.

In the following text, the part played by the god named Ellil seems to be the role Yahweh plays in the biblical version of the tale. Ellil is called Enlil in the Sumerian texts but since the Israelites also referred to Yahweh as "El Shaddi" or "El Elyon," it seems to me that all of these names are referring to exactly the same god. If I am right, then the Bible version of the tale amounts to a cover up. Like the "official White House Version" of any number of crucial moments in recent history, the official tale told in the Bible attempts to whitewash the role Yahweh (El-Enlil-Ellil-El Shaddi-El Elyon-Jehovah) played in these events.

http://www.earthhistory.org.uk/genesis-6-11-and-other-texts/flood-texts-from-mesopotamia/

In the Rig Veda texts from India the part of El-Ellil-Enlil-Yahweh is played by the Vedic Aryan god known as Indra who is also called by the names of Shiva "the destroyer," and Rudra in other Vedic texts. Regardless of where a text originates from, they all seem to basically be telling the same stories but every nation seems to be attributing the tale to their own national god. However, it doesn't appear that there were necessarily a whole lot of different gods; instead it looks like each of the gods involved were known by a multiple number of different names and the gods apparently used all these multiple names in order to keep the general population confused about their real identities and real agenda. That agenda invariably involved the continued rule of an elitist class of people over the masses of humanity. As long as the gods could keep everybody fighting with one another, it served to reduce human populations and kept the bulk of the populations so busy fighting one another that they didn't stop to look at what was really taking place. It was macheveillian manipulation to the extreme.

There also seems to have actually been several floods rather than one great big one. As far as I can tell, there were at least three different primary floods that appear in the texts, and you can only arrive at this conclusion by comparing one text to another. From the scientific and geological evidence we can surmise that each of these primary floods occurred during the melt down of the last ice age. There seems to have been two early eras of flooding at the time of the primary meltdown; one about 11,000-12,000 years ago, and another occurring sometime around the Younger Dryas melt down which began around 9620 BC. And then there was the later Black Sea flood that occurred some time around 5600 BC which occurred when many of the glaciers surrounding the highest mountains around the Black Sea began to melt down.

While some may be understandably incredulous to think the gods may have had a role in these events, it would have actually been rather easy for any advanced society that had developed at least airplanes and bombs to develop an agenda aimed at destroying targeted populations with flooding during the periods of glacial melt down. Doing so would have necessitated an Air Force and there is certainly plenty of evidence indicating that an elitist group within advanced human societies had indeed developed an aeronautical technology in the distant past. The people who had access to this technology were obviously called "angels" or "gods" in the bible and they were called the "Igigi" in some Middle Eastern texts. In the Vedic texts of India they were apparently called the "Nagas," and "Asuras". The word "demon" was thrown around with great abandon at this time and it appears to be a word that was applied to the Air Force of any nation one was at war with. Inevitably "the gods" of one nation were called "demons" by another and vice versa. The word "demon" had a completely different meaning in antiquity than it does today.

During the ice age melt down the run off from the melting ice and glaciers would flow down the sides of the mountain ranges and then slip beneath the ice sheets and glaciers that still covered the valley floors and gorges. Huge ice dams developed during the melt downs and these ice dams literally held back billions and billions of cubit feet of water that was trapped between the ridges of mountain ranges. If aircraft of some kind and bombs were indeed available as hundreds of texts clearly imply, it would have been entirely possible to bomb those ice dams and create horrendous floods in the valleys below where most human settlements existed at the time. Of course, those ice dams would have probably eventually burst anyway and caused flooding. But the point is that absolutely none of the ancient texts say the floods were natural events. Every single one of them attributes the flood epics to the act of "gods" that flew through the skies in some sort of aircraft.

When those airplanes or saucers were flying through the air, they were described in the Mesopotamian texts as being "in the heaven of Anu." Some modern day alternative historians have convinced millions of people that "the heaven of Anu" must mean the gods were some sort of extraterrestrial race. But the fact is, every time you've climbed into an airplane, you were flying through the "heaven of Anu" because the term simply seems to be a reference to local air space. Anu actually seems to be someone that was the known head of the main air force that was operating throughout the Near and Middle East.

One of the best books I've read to date on the flood era is called "Before the Flood" by Ian Wilson and it details the scientific evidence for a major flood that occurred late in the Younger Dryas Ice age melt down. According to Collins' research, this specific flood raised the sea levels around the world by at least 400 feet and occurred around 5600 BC. This specific flood occurred when the ice dams that once prevented the Mediterranean Sea from flowing into the Black Sea suddenly burst through and the scientific evidence Collins presents is simply profound. As the Mediterranean flowed into the Black Sea, the Black Sea overflowed and it took out a huge part of the Near and Middle Eastern populations. I suspect the flood of Noah and the Black Sea flood were probably one and the same. If so, then the Noah story probably began as the flood tale of Utnapishtum as it is told in the ancient tale called The Epic of Gilgamesh. Here is the particular tablet that deals with that event.

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab11.htm

It is doubtful however if the Black Sea flood accounts for the flood stories in India. Rising sea levels certainly would have flooded out the populations along the coastlines around the world, but it doesn't account for the flooding that apparently existed far inland and at much higher altitudes. The stories in the Rig Veda actually suggest that Indra bombed an ice dam in the Himalayas to create flooding that took out many ancient inland settlements in India. Once the flood waters receded, Indra then turned those lands over to his descendants and followers who became the elitist Aryan ruling class of ancient India. The following verses are just a few of the stanzas that describe Indra's floods in the Rig Veda.

"I was the Father of the human race and the Sun. I am seer Kakshivan. I humbled the sage Kutsa. I am the seer Ushanas, behold me. I gave the Earth to the Aryans, the rain to my mortal worshipper. I led the roaring floods. The Gods moved according to my direction. IV.26.1-2)

"You destroyed the dragon who withheld the waters. Earth in her awareness furthered your thunderbolt. You gave energy to the ocean-going floods. You became the Lord through strength, thou daring hero (IV.16.7)

He slew the dragon lying at the mountain. The creator fashioned for him his flashing thunderbolt. As milk cows bellowing as they flowed, directly the waters entered the ocean (I.32.2).

By which you released the great floods to the ocean, Indra that power of yours is vigorous (VIII.3.10).
From the looks of things, when one examines the multitude of flood texts that exist and the role "the gods" are said to have played in these events, it basically looks to me like a specific group of elitist men bent on being worshipped as gods devised a plot to wipe out existing populations and then they divided up the land amongst themselves, declared themselves "gods" and demanded that the survivors worship them as such.

There was apparently a huge flood even before Genesis One, because in the Bible chapter the God of Genesis One creates human beings and obviously cares deeply about them because he calls human beings "good" and then tells them to go and "replenish" the earth. (Gen 1:28) Most Bible scholars seem to have missed this crucial little word. The implications are, of course, that the people of Genesis One were created after an earlier flood event had taken place. After what is called "the first creation", there is another flood, and we see in the Babylon Creation Text that Marduk (who was called Ra in Egypt) takes responsibility for both the first and second floods. Some historians believe that Ra/Marduk and El-Ellil-Enlil were one and the same but the evidence indicates that while Ra indeed became the head of the Egyptian pantheon of gods, he was only second in command to Enlil who was considered "the god most high" and the ultimate ruler over the entire earth. That Ra/Marduk and his pantheon played a primary role in the flood events is a conclusion that seems to be backed up by the Papyrus of Ra which is stored in the in the Leyden Museum and the Papyrus of Ani residing in the British Museum; both were written during the Nineteenth Dynasty but were undoubtedly based upon far older texts. In this story, "Ani, the Scribe" stands before the god Thoth who was second in command to Ra. One of Ra's many Egyptian names was "Tem" or "Atum Ra" in the texts. Ani declares to Thoth…

'Hail, Thoth! What is it that hath happened unto the divine children of Nut? They have done battle, the have upheld strife, they have done evil, the have created the fiends, they have made slaughter, they have caused trouble; in truth, in all their doings the mighty have worked against the weak. Grant, O might of Thoth, that that which the god Tem (Atum) hath decreed (may be done)! And thou regardest not evil, nor art thou provoked to anger when they bring their years to confusion and throng in and push to disturb their months; for in all that they have done unto thee they have worked iniquity in secret. I am thy writing palette, O Thoth, and I have brought unto thee thine ink-jar. I am not of those who work iniquity in their secret places; let not evil happen unto me." Thoth answers, 'I am going to blot out everything which I have made…into the watery abyss of Nu by means of a raging flood…"

After the second flood, which seems to kill off most of the people of Genesis One, "the gods" create the "Adama" (Adam is the singular form and the Adumu is the multiple form of the same word) of the Genesis Two Garden of Eden tale. In some texts the Adam is also called "Adapa." And Adam, as detailed in any number of texts was a genetically manipulated human being whose sole purpose was to be a slave to the gods.

During this same era there is indeed also fossil evidence that giants certainly did appear on the earth, although there is much to suggest that like the Adam, the giants were actually the result of genetic manipulation.

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html

Yep. Those are real skeletons. And no, they are not the result of boards being applied to the head to manipulate head shape. The cranial mass of these skulls is much, much larger than that of typical Homo sapiens and each of these skeletons have been through rather rigorous scientific analysis. Pretty creepy, huh? While there are many authors speculating today that these skulls offer proof of extraterrestrial visitation, there is far more evidence that a group of elitist men with access to advanced genetic technologies in antiquity had the knowledge to genetically manipulate human DNA and in part used that knowledge in order to create a race of giants.

The Bible stories that so many of you have grown to mistrust do indeed look to be very convoluted and manipulated versions of some of the same texts I've just pointed out to you. Instead of atheists and agnostics spending so much energy being angry about the fact that the Bible misrepresents much of history, why don't you simply read the texts the Bible stories were based on and save yourselves a lot of time being upset about something that is actually being remedied today?

However there is one NT bible verse that apparently seems to be very accurate and it is found in Luke 8:17 when Jesus tells people; "For nothing is secret that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." As far as I can tell, this is one prophesy that evidently appears to be coming true today. For the first time in thousands of years, the texts the Bible stories were based upon are available to the common man. Most of these texts were only available to a select group of priests during the Old Testament days. And there is little doubt that many of these same texts were hidden away in the Vatican archives of the Church of Rome for centuries as well. By the time copies of these texts were made available to the Universities of official academia, these texts were immediately dubbed "myths" because even as short as 75-100 years ago our own civilization had not yet developed the technological expertise to recognize the technologies these texts are talking about. However in recent generations, thousands of dedicated researchers and scholars have been working their butts off in order to bring these texts to light and have them published so the general public can actually read them.

These texts present the evidence that Jesus already apparently knew when he said, "Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees; hypocrites!" There would have been no need for him to have been so angry at the scribes unless Jesus was well aware of the fact that the scribes had been manipulating history in order to cover up the very questionable deeds and identities of "the gods."

The one thing that is very, very evident in all the ancient texts is the fact that in antiquity there were two kinds of people; there were those elitist families that had access to very advanced technologies and then there was the multitudes of the common people, most of whom were the descendants of flood victims who'd lost everything including all the trappings of civilization. History is basically a story of "the haves" and "the have nots." Within decades of the flood epics the elitists who still had access to technology had convinced the common man and poor people that they were ruled by "gods."

Don't miss out on these texts! Many of your gripes about the Bible are actually being vindicated.

[Tom Sawyer]

In regards to the flood myths, I really don't see why any actual flood is necessary to come up with it. I really don't see why a large flood would be interpreted as a worldwide one. Ancient people were quite aware of floods and knew that they occured on larger and smaller leves - it seems like a bit of a stretch to me that people would assume that the entire world had flooded just because a larger one happened.

A much more logical genesis of the myth to me would be that people are walking through mountains, etc and finding bones of fish and the like there. Knowing that these fossils are found in high lands everywhere, they make the quite rational and correct assumption that the whole place used to be underneath the sea. Not knowing anything about tectonic movement, they have no way of coming to the actual conclusion of how the mountains used to be underwater, but they do "know" that floods are caused by angry gods.

Using the best scientific reasoning available to them, they then assume that at some point, a god became so angry that he flooded the entire world. That, however, leads to the followup question of how anyone managed to survive it. Answer that with the god selecting some good man to save himself, his family and a bunch of animals and you eventually get to the various flood myths out there.

There's no flood necessary to come up with these stories.

[Kelly]

Oh, there had to be some very real and very serious floods. The Ice Age happened and so did the Melt Down. The Old Testament authors apparently attempted to condense the various accounts of several different primary floods and roll them all into one big worldwide flood. The melting of the ice age took several thousand years and as it happened the level of the oceans raised worldwide and undoubtedly flooded out all the cities that were situated along the coastlines.

You've got to read the ancient texts to understand the spin the Bible gives to these events. In all cases "the gods" appear to be men who retained possession of a very advanced technology while the common man was reduced to living in caves or had to adapt a nomadic lifestyle. Just as today should some world-wide disaster happen, the government officials, scientists, and the elitists have a plan for their own safety in underground compounds like Mount Weather, which can be closed off from anything happening on the surface of the earth. The elitists and officials have undoubtedly made sure they will be able to retain the present ages' technology, but absolutely no attempt has been made to make sure that the populace in general will be protected.

Every single text from antiquity suggests that mankind had previously held a very advanced level of technology. "The gods" hung onto their technology and used it to take power over the masses.

"The gods" of antiquity inevitably had the technology of flight, and there are just too many texts about "the underworld" suggesting that elitist groups found safety in well-equipped cave compounds that could be closed off, while others, like in the Atrahasis texts, say some of the gods stayed aloft in airplanes or "vimanas" while major flood events were occurring.

You state "There's no flood necessary to come up with these stories." I disagree. Read the texts. It doesn't matter which nation's texts you are looking at, every last nation on earth has their own flood story, and every single nation in the Middle East and India regardless of whether the texts come from Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Hurrian, Canaanite (etc.) stories, attributes the floods to men who were called "gods" and flew through the sky in vessels that were similar to either airplanes or UFOs.

I doubt seriously if these beings were extra-terrestrial. The gods simply sound like men who wanted complete control over the earth and her populations. You don't need to be an ET or some omnipotant extradimensional deity to have that goal. Look around you. There are still plenty of men trying to "play god" today and they are evidently planning to do the something similar should disaster occur in our own day and age...

I agree however, that the "one flood" story of the Bible is a myth. There were many floods and at least three big floods are documented in the ancient texts, but there is nothing to suggest that the entire world was flooded out all at the same time. We have to view the stories from the reality of the people who were living in those times. To them, when the floodwaters raised to take out entire nations, it must have surely seemed like the whole world had been flooded, and certainly "their" whole world had been. They didn't have TV to tell them that South America had not flooded out at the same time.

[Stinger]

Oh, there had to be some very real and very serious floods. The Ice Age happened and so did the Melt Down. The Old Testament authors apparently attempted to condense the various accounts of several different primary floods and roll them all into one big worldwide flood. The melting of the ice age took several thousand years and as it happened the level of the oceans raised worldwide and undoubtedly flooded out all the cities that were situated along the coastlines.

You've got to read the ancient texts to understand the spin the Bible gives to these events. In all cases "the gods" appear to be men who retained possession of a very advanced technology while the common man was reduced to living in caves or had to adapt a nomadic lifestyle. Just as today should some world-wide disaster happen, the government officials, scientists, and the elitists have a plan for their own safety in underground compounds like Mount Weather, which can be closed off from anything happening on the surface of the earth. The elitists and officials have undoubtedly made sure they will be able to retain the present ages' technology, but absolutely no attempt has been made to make sure that the populace in general will be protected.

Every single text from antiquity suggests that mankind had previously held a very advanced level of technology. "The gods" hung onto their technology and used it to take power over the masses.

"The gods" of antiquity inevitably had the technology of flight, and there are just too many texts about "the underworld" suggesting that elitist groups found safety in well-equipped cave compounds that could be closed off, while others, like in the Atrahasis texts, say some of the gods stayed aloft in airplanes or "vimanas" while major flood events were occurring.

You state "There's no flood necessary to come up with these stories." I disagree. Read the texts. It doesn't matter which nation's texts you are looking at, every last nation on earth has their own flood story, and every single nation in the Middle East and India regardless of whether the texts come from Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Hurrian, Canaanite (etc.) stories, attributes the floods to men who were called "gods" and flew through the sky in vessels that were similar to either airplanes or UFOs.

I doubt seriously if these beings were extra-terrestrial. The gods simply sound like men who wanted complete control over the earth and her populations. You don't need to be an ET or some omnipotant extradimensional deity to have that goal. Look around you. There are still plenty of men trying to "play god" today and they are evidently planning to do the something similar should disaster occur in our own day and age... What's your point? Because there are floods in every country that the bible flood must be true? Societies locate near water. We require water to survive. We drink it; use it for transportation, irrigation, and etc. All bodies of water occasionally flood. Ancient people used to build up myths over phenomena that they couldn't explain. Are you really surprised that every civilization has a flood myth?

[Kelly]

What's your point? Because there are floods in every country that the bible flood must be true?

No. My point is to show that the Bible version of these tales and the documented archaeological texts are entirely different. The authors of the Bible very obviously borrowed many of their stories from older texts and changed the stories around so that they were all attributed to their national god, "Yahweh-Jehovah."

The older documents tell a completely different tale than the Bible does.

The biggest difference is that the Biblical Flood supposedly happened to rid the earth of giants, while the much older Mesopotamian texts say the floods were manipulated by various Anunnaki gods for the purpose of killing off most of earth's human populations.

The Biblical version of the Flood is simply not backed up by any of the documented archaeological texts. We can see that the Bible tale was borrowed from the older texts, but the priesthoods and scribes very obviously changed the story to suit their own agenda.

[badger3k]

Sure, the Israelites borrowed legends from the surrounding areas, the same as other individuals. Considering that floods were common around rivers, which is where early civilizations started, there is no need (nor any evidence) for large scale floods as depicted in the myths. Nor is there any evidence of "giants" nor "advanced technology".

The site you linked to (Steve-whatever) has an interesting "research" section. I liked the letter on the cat people of Pennsylvania (if I placed the river correctly, which I may not have). I think Erich von Däniken would be pleased by the quality of the research depicted there. All you seem to be doing is bringing in a lot of the "ancient astronaut/atlantis" mythology/pseudohistory. If you want to bring up giants as a historical reality, why not give us the papers these findings were published in? Surely there is some peer-reviewed article on these skeletons. You know, I hadn't checked to see if that site lists the work of Ron Wyatt as evidence.

Another bit - flight is common in mythology the world over, but this is not evidence that humans (or other beings living on this planet) ever had the capability. It is common to ascribe to supernatural beings powers and abilities that lie beyond those of humans. It's one of the ways of showing their powers - they are above humans.

How you can go from mythology to reality is beyond me, even if I used to be a believer like you seem to be. There is no archaeological evidence for any historical basis for these myths.

[Kelly]

People who take either the Atheist or Agnostic point of view can realistically point out hundreds of inaccuracies and contradictions in the Bible. However, doing so does not do anything what-so-ever to discount the incredible number of tales that were very obviously the basis for the Bible stories. True, the priesthoods and scribes attempted to spin the stories into one conflicting hodgepodge of tales that tried to make the national god of Israel omnipotent on a world-wide scale, but all your atheistic and agnostic tirades against the Bible does absolutely nothing to discount the main body of historical evidence documented in the archaeological texts.

No matter how many times you seek to discredit the existence of the Old Testament god system, absolutely no attack you can make on the Bible is going to disprove the fact that the "God" of the Old Testament is a composite god based on the ancient pantheon of the Anunnaki gods of old.

There are hundreds if not thousands of texts documenting the Anunnaki and as a group, the Anunnaki pantheon is composite and one and the same with the Old Testament god.

Here is a list of sites that have at least some of the texts the Bible stories were based upon. You can see for yourself that the Hebrew priesthood elected to manipulate and spin these tales and attempted to mold them into a story attributed to their idea of their national god.

So okay, the Bible stories can be discredited as a manipulation of the Jewish priesthoods and scribes. So what? You've really accomplished nothing. Until you can completely disprove and discredit the body of documented historical accounts that detail the actions of the Anunnaki god system, none of you have been very effective at proving the non-existence of the Old Testament god system.

http://www.earth-history.com/

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/index.htm

http://www.piney.com/BabIndex.html

http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/edition2/etcslbycat.php

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_myth_gods_index.htm

What's the bottom line? It's that you're going to have to work a hell of a lot harder to prove the Anunnaki didn't exist because you cannot entirely disprove the Old Testament god until you can prove that there were no Anunnaki.

[Kelly]

Badger3K posted:
Another bit - flight is common in mythology the world over, but this is not evidence that humans (or other beings living on this planet) ever had the capability.

Surely you are joking!

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc161.htm

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc116.htm

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc110.htm

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc111.htm

http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=military_ancient_india

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/ancatomicwar1.html

http://www.geocities.com/dipalsarvesh/viman1.html

http://ufo.whipnet.org/creation/india.4000BC.ufo/index.html

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vimanas/vs/default.htm


The Vimanas texts are documented over and over again, and those texts deal with ancient aerial flight. Today we call Vimanas "UFOs". The Bible calls the gods who rode around in these things "the angels" and "God." Regardless of what you call them, the Vimanas were one and the same with the Anunnaki aerial technology described in the Mesopotamian texts AND the Bible!

The beings who rode around in them were either extraterrestrial "gods" or they are men attempting to con people into believing that they are, but you've got a real job ahead of you if you think you can "prove" the ability to fly wasn't within the power of the Anunnaki gods.

[Kelly]

This site is a fairly good synthesis of the texts.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vimanas/vs/default.htm

Go ahead and "proove" these texts are only myths! And while you are at it, you'll probably also have to proove there are no UFOs today.

I wish you luck. I tried to proove to myself that UFOs don't exist for 35 years, and so far, I've completely failed at that task.

What there is no real proof of is the hypothesis that UFOs are being flown by extraterrestrial beings from other worlds. According to the ancient texts, MEN who defined themselves as "gods" built Vimanas and UFOs...

[badger3k]

What's the bottom line? It's that you're going to have to work a hell of a lot harder to prove the Anunnaki didn't exist because you cannot entirely disprove the Old Testament god until you can prove that there were no Anunnaki.

Already done centuries ago.

I still have no idea what you are saying.

Do you listen to Coast-to-Coast? I know that there are looneys there who believe that the mythical gods of Mesopotamia were space aliens (or highly evolved humans from the future, or some other bizarre theory). Is that what you believe? I really want to know, because that is what it looks like.

A bit on the Annunaki:

From the Dictionary of Mythology, J. A. Coleman (pulled from Wowio - free ebooks):Annunaki1 Mesopotamian
[Anunaki.Ennuki.]
earth-gods created by Marduk
These beings are regarded as spirits,
appearing in the form of stars below
the horizon. In some accounts they are
equated with, or confused with, the
Igigi who appear above the horizon.
Annunaki2 Mesopotamian
[Anunaki.Ennuki.Seven Judges]
judges in the Babylonian underworld

From the Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Morris Jastrow (p184+, ebook from Project Gutenberg #20758):Anunnaki and Igigi.
Regarding these names it may be said that the former has not yet been
satisfactorily interpreted. On the assumption that the union of the
syllables A-nun-na-ki[216] represents a compound ideograph, the
middle syllable nun signifies 'strength,' whereas the first is the ordinary
ideograph for 'water.' Hommel[217] proposed to interpret the name
therefore as 'gods of the watery habitation.' The artificiality of this
manner of writing points, as in several instances noted, to a mere 'play'
upon the real name. Anunna reminds one forcibly of the god Anu and of
the goddess Anunit, and the element ak is quite a common afformative
in Babylonian substantives, conveying a certain emphatic meaning to
the word. If therefore we may compare Anun with the name of the god
of heaven, the name Anunnak embodying, as it does in this case, the
idea of power, would be an appropriate designation for the spirits, or a
group of spirits collectively. Be it understood that this explanation is
offered merely as a conjecture, which, however, finds support in the
meaning attached to the term 'Igigi.' This, as Halévy and Guyard have
recognized, is a formation of a well-known stem occurring in
Babylonian, as well as in other Semitic languages, that has the meaning
'strong.' The ideographic form of writing the name likewise designates
the spirits as 'the great chiefs.' The 'Igigi,' therefore, are 'the strong
ones,' and strength being the attribute most commonly assigned to the
Semitic deities,[218] there is a presumption, at least, in favor of
interpreting Anunnak, or Anunnaki,[219] in the same way. The 'Igigi' are
at times designated as the seven gods, but this number is simply an
indication of their constituting a large group. Seven is a round number
which marked a large quantity. At an earlier period five represented a
numerical magnitude, and hence the Anunnaki are at times regarded as
a group of five.[220] The Anunnaki and Igigi appear for the first time in
an historical text in the inscription of the Assyrian king Ramman-nirari
I., who includes them in his appeal to the great gods. He designates the
Igigi as belonging to heaven, the Anunnaki as belonging to the earth.
The manner in which he uses the names shows conclusively that, at this
early period, the two groups comprehended the entire domain over
which spirits, and for that matter also the gods, exercised their power.
Indeed, it would appear that at one time the two names were used to
include the gods as well as the spirits. At least this appears to be the
case in Assyria, and the conclusion may be drawn, from the somewhat
vague use of the terms, that the names belong to a very early period of
the religion, when the distinction between gods and spirits was not yet
clearly marked.

An interesting book that I have not read enough of. Need to get a Kindle.:)

The Annunaki were a group of ancient gods/spirits (either/or/both). That's all. Too many people read ancient legends and want to find some historical basis, and they read into the texts what they want to see. A quick memory hit of the Garuda bird being a spaceship or plane came to mind as I wrote this. The "lightbulb" of ancient Egypt, "astronauts" in Mayan artwork, and the whole Atlantis = technology bit also comes to mind.

I have been doing quick searches to try to find out when this "Annunaki = aliens/evolved beings/technological society/reptoids" business began, but I haven't been able to find anything. I suspect it is a recent adoption, probably from the ancient astronaut craze of the 70s. Anyone who wants to try to show that these mythological beings actually existed need to find better evidence than some old stories, misinterpreted artwork, recovered memories from UFO abductees, and channelers. Sorry if this is a bit of a rant, but these farcical attempts to destroy archaeology and history make me a bit crazy. Anybody reading this have any idea where this bit of pseudothought came from?

Finally - (to restate) - the burden of proof is on those who are making a claim. Those who want to show that YHVH or the Annunaki exist have the burden of proof. Skeptics have no burden to disprove anything (although in the case of ancient mythologies, we have been doing a pretty good job, but then, we have all the evidence on our side). :Cheeky:

[badger3k]

This site is a fairly good synthesis of the texts.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vimanas/vs/default.htm

Go ahead and "proove" these texts are only myths! And while you are at it, you'll probably also have to proove there are no UFOs today.

I wish you luck. I tried to proove to myself that UFOs don't exist for 35 years, and so far, I've completely failed at that task.

What there is no real proof of is the hypothesis that UFOs are being flown by extraterrestrial beings from other worlds. According to the ancient texts, MEN who defined themselves as "gods" built Vimanas and UFOs...

Well, I see you answered my question. Seriously, you first need to prove your claims. Everything so far has been debunked, but I suspect you reject such feeble claims of science and reality. I can tell that for 35 years you have been going about it completely back-asswards, starting with the conclusion that they exist and that someone has to prove they don't. Try it the other way.

According to ancient texts, the world has been destroyed four times in the past, with bird people, reptile people, insect people, and one other, being the races destroyed. The world was also formed from the body of a frost giant. The world was hatched from an egg. The universe was made when the god Ptah jacked off and his seminal fluid became everything (that's my favorite - it clearly explains why humans are F'ed).

But, I think the "keep an open mind but not so much that your brains fall out" is going to fall on deaf ears.

I assume that this is going to go nowhere, so unless you can come up with some evidence that supports such lame claims, I'm not going to bother responding. I've found that dealing with the tinfoil hat brigade is like dealing with the mercury militia and 9-11 "truthers".

Sorry to have wasted all of our time.

[anders]

... the Vedic Aryan god known as Indra who is also called by the names of Shiva "the destroyer," ...
If this were true, how come there are places like Kadambur or the Minakshi temple in Madurai, where Indra is said to have worshipped Shiva?

[Kelly]

Well, I see you answered my question. Seriously, you first need to prove your claims.

No. You seriously need to prove your claims. I don't care whether you are looking at the Bible texts, the Mesopotamian texts or the texts written by the Vedic Aryans, the texts invariably say that human armies with reasonably low tech weapons like maces, bows and arrows and swords were battling it out on land, but they were being led by "gods" who flew through the air in aerial craft.

If these texts are just "myths" then people dating back to at least 2500 BC must have surely had extraordinary imaginations; in fact, they must have been science fiction authors par excellence and unparalleled by even the best sci-fi writers of today.

You could take any one of the diagrams detailed in the various Vimana texts and present them as drawings taken from the eye witness accounts of the present day UFO phenomenon, and you couldn't tell them apart.

So in my view, you cannot define the extra-Biblical accounts as "myths" until you can factually disprove the eyewitness accounts of UFOs today.

Can you do that?

Unfortunately, the Old Testament god appears to fly a UFO/Vimana. How are you going to debunk that?

I assume that this is going to go nowhere, so unless you can come up with some evidence that supports such lame claims, I'm not going to bother responding. I've found that dealing with the tinfoil hat brigade is like dealing with the mercury militia and 9-11 "truthers".

You are resorting to labeling people rather than presenting any evidence, and if you have to do that in order to prove your point, you've already lost the debate.

Sorry to have wasted all of our time.

So you take a cheap shot and run? That's crap and you know it.

[Kelly]

If this were true, how come there are places like Kadambur or the Minakshi temple in Madurai, where Indra is said to have worshipped Shiva?

The adjective śiva meaning "auspicious" is used as an attributive epithet not particularly of Rudra, but of several other Vedic deities. In the Rig Veda, Indra uses this word to describe himself several times....

… The Indologist, Koenraad Elst proposes that Shiva of Puranic Hinduism is a continuation of the Vedic Indra. He gives several reasons for his hypothesis. Both Shiva and Indra are known for having a thirst for Soma. Both are associated with mountains, rivers, male fertility, fierceness, fearlessness, warfare, transgression of established mores, the Aum sound, the Supreme Self. In the Rig Veda the term śiva is used to refer to Indra. Indra, like Shiva, is likened to a bull.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva

Another visitor enters the hall. He is Shiva, in the form of a hermit. On his chest lies a circular cluster of hairs, intact at the circumference but with a gap in the middle. Shiva reveals that each of these chest hairs corresponds to the life of one Indra. Each time a hair falls, one Indra dies and another replaces him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra

Indra, is called "the storm god" in the Vedic texts and in all his forms he corresponds to the Canaanite and Mesopotamian tales of Baal/Adad/Hadad, the "storm god" of the Middle East, who is one and the same as "Seth" in the Egyptian texts.

There are hundreds of Hindu sects. In many sects, Indra is considered the most ancient form of Shiva, while Shiva is his more modern counterpart. Shiva is particularly connected to the tales of Shambala, and Shambala is common to both Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism.

Like all of the Mesopotamian and Egyptian gods, the gods of India and Tibet are considered "immortal" because they continually reincarnate under different names. All the gods have multiple names and are thought to reicarnate as men.

[badger3k]

Well, I see you answered my question. Seriously, you first need to prove your claims.

No. You seriously need to prove your claims.

Bzzp - try again pal. You need to provide one bit of evidence, not myths written by long dead people. Try again. For starters, here is one bit, from this very site even (shifting burden of proof (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#shifting))

I don't care whether you are looking at the Bible texts, the Mesopotamian texts or the texts written by the Vedic Aryans, the texts invariably say that human armies with reasonably low tech weapons like maces, bows and arrows and swords were battling it out on land, but they were being led by "gods" who flew through the air in aerial craft.

So you believe everything you read? I am representing a Nigerian prince who has died....
If these texts are just "myths" then people dating back to at least 2500 BC must have surely had extraordinary imaginations; in fact, they must have been science fiction authors par excellence and unparalleled by even the best sci-fi writers of today.

Obviously, looking at birds, I have no idea where they would get the concept of flight. :confused: Looking at lightning, I have no idea where they would get the concept of mass destruction (not to mention such things as YHVH being unable to triumph over iron chariot wheels - even a simple bit of metallurgy can have a big impact on combat). If this is the best evidence, then you need to read some good science fiction authors. Believe me, they are much better.
You could take any one of the diagrams detailed in the various Vimana texts and present them as drawings taken from the eye witness accounts of the present day UFO phenomenon, and you couldn't tell them apart.

What part of delusion don't you get. Try Pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia) to start, give sleep paralysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis) a try, look through the Klass files (http://www.csicop.org/klassfiles/Home.html), and go on from there. So far, these "abductees" have no evidence. That some misthinking nutter can see a UFO in ancient drawings is exactly zero evidence. Look up Daniken for FSMs sake!
So in my view, you cannot define the extra-Biblical accounts as "myths" until you can factually disprove the eyewitness accounts of UFOs today.

Can you do that?

Once again, you try to shift the burden of proof. Nice try. First you need to provide evidence. Still haven't seen any. Also, get a clue - these "eyewitness accounts" are not really good. Start with the Skepdic (http://skepdic.com/ufos_ets.html) and go from there.

Unfortunately, the Old Testament god appears to fly a UFO/Vimana. How are you going to debunk that?

I assume this is going to be the "throne" argument? Surely you don't mean the Ezekial "Wheel UFO" crock. I'll give one article that is based on actual evidence, on the off chance that this is it (here (http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/05-07-28.html))

You are resorting to labeling people rather than presenting any evidence, and if you have to do that in order to prove your point, you've already lost the debate.

Was this a debate? I haven't seen any evidence presented that suggests that ancient myths are real. All I've seen is literary references presented as facts, and appeal to UFO abductees. You've got a long way to go before you rise to the level of debate. Keep trying. Let me know when you get there.

Sorry to have wasted all of our time.

So you take a cheap shot and run? That's crap and you know it.
Nope. My time is valuable to me. Since my cleaning-up-after-minor-flooding-and-bug-bombing-my-house break has already led me to some interesting research topics into pre/non-christian exorcisms in history (for example), time spent responding to a UFOlogist really is wasted time. Been there, done that, found there was no evidence to support my prior beliefs in UFO visitation (going back to about when I was old enough to walk, about the same as yours). Discarded them, and I have no respect for those who would misuse scholarship and insult the cultures of ancient people in their drive to prove an advanced civilization hypothesis that has never had one iota of evidence for it other than wishful thinking.

That about sums it up. Unless you seriously have something real to bring to the table, you can join the rest of the crackpots. If that's insulting, then so is your "logic". It's up there with flat-Earthers, moon-landing deniers, and those who believe in the manufactured "Bermuda triangle" mythology. That's how I feel, and I make no apologies.

Put up or not. The balls in your court, but don't waste my time unless you have real evidence to support your claim.

[Kelly]

What part of delusion don't you get. Try Pareidolia to start, give sleep paralysis a try, look through the Klass files, and go on from there. So far, these "abductees" have no evidence. That some misthinking nutter can see a UFO in ancient drawings is exactly zero evidence. Look up Daniken for FSMs sake!

So, you are going to categorically deny both present-day and ancient eye-witness accounts of UFO/Vimana's as "delusional"?

Unfortunately then, you are claiming that President Ronald Reagan was delusional
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1738.htm

as well as President Jimmy Carter.
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case294.htm

Looks like the ball is back in your court….

[GenesisNemesis]

Badger3K posted:
Another bit - flight is common in mythology the world over, but this is not evidence that humans (or other beings living on this planet) ever had the capability.

Surely you are joking!

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc161.htm

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc116.htm

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc110.htm

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc111.htm

http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=military_ancient_india

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/ancatomicwar1.html

http://www.geocities.com/dipalsarvesh/viman1.html

http://ufo.whipnet.org/creation/india.4000BC.ufo/index.html

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vimanas/vs/default.htm


The Vimanas texts are documented over and over again, and those texts deal with ancient aerial flight. Today we call Vimanas "UFOs". The Bible calls the gods who rode around in these things "the angels" and "God." Regardless of what you call them, the Vimanas were one and the same with the Anunnaki aerial technology described in the Mesopotamian texts AND the Bible!

The beings who rode around in them were either extraterrestrial "gods" or they are men attempting to con people into believing that they are, but you've got a real job ahead of you if you think you can "prove" the ability to fly wasn't within the power of the Anunnaki gods.

LOL, ufos? Seriously? There are a lot of links there...

[Kelly]

LOL, ufos? Seriously? There are a lot of links there...

Yep. There sure are. That's because there is a whole lot of information documenting the existence of Vimanas in antiquity. And it is simply faster to review these links that it is to try to sit down and read the whole dang Rig Veda, Mahabharata, and Ramayana. True Story...

And then there are the Mesopotamian texts, which repeatedly talk about "gods" flying in vehicles through the air. As far as you can go back in written human history, these damn UFO type vehicles seem to exist.

[Ronin]

So the OP is basically an examination of the issue of God-belief and UFO belief being synonymous due to lack of proof for their non-existence and only offers anecdotal "experiences".

I cannot disprove the existence of fairies (no one can) but I can still state that the lack of evidence for their existence means that they don't exist beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't doubt that there are many references to real historical events written in the sacred texts of all traditions...made into myth and legend over time.

This doesn't prove that the supernatural elements are also true and correct.

There is a Mt. Olympus...but there is no Zeus.

Or is it that the OP claims this is so as well?

In any event, this is more of an observation of BC&H and less a General Religious Discussion.

:wave:

Why limit history to just Bible texts...why not an examination of the Rig Vedas, the Dhammapada, etc. as well?

May Sri Krishna bring you the peace and wisdom of Arjuna.

[Ronin]

Google search links instead of actual study?

I think I'm beginning to see the problem here.

:)

[GenesisNemesis]

As far as you can go back in written human history, these damn UFO type vehicles seem to exist.

All we have are written texts. Do you know how to distinguish mythology from history? If there was any such evidence (archaeological, for example) that UFO's did exist, we would be happy to investigate it.

[Kelly]

So the OP is basically an examination of the issue of God-belief and UFO belief being synonymous due to lack of proof for their non-existence and only offers anecdotal "experiences".

Yeesh. ALL of history is "anecdotal" except for the last hundred years or so. You can deny what is in the texts all that you want, but you can't deny that Baalbek and countless other inexplicable archaeological sites exist.

So you tell me how somebody got stones of this size into place…
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_baalbek_1.htm

To this day we don't have a technology that is capable of doing this. The stones of Baalbek virtually dwarf anything found at Giza. I don't have a good explanation of how those rocks were placed into the foundation of Baalbek, so if you do, well then have at it. As far as I am concerned somebody had to have had a technology was extremely advanced or those damn rocks wouldn't even be there.

Those rocks are not "mythological." They exist and unless you can explain them away, I think we are going to have to discern that some sort of phenomenol technology had to have been responsible.

[GenesisNemesis]

Yeesh. ALL of history is "anecdotal" except for the last hundred years or so. You can deny what is in the texts all that you want, but you can't deny that Baalbek and countless other inexplicable archaeological sites exist.

So you tell me how somebody got stones of this size into place…
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_baalbek_1.htm

To this day we don't have a technology that is capable of doing this. The stones of Baalbek virtually dwarf anything found at Giza. I don't have a good explanation of how those rocks were placed into the foundation of Baalbek, so if you do, well then have at it. As far as I am concerned somebody had to have had a technology was extremely advanced or those damn rocks wouldn't even be there.

Those rocks are not "mythological." They exist and unless you can explain them away, I think we are going to have to discern that some sort of phenomenol technology had to have been responsible.

"We do not know how these rocks were put in place by humans at this point in ancient history, therefore aliens did it". :rolleyes:

The ancient Romans were a lot smarter than you think they were. Here's (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/roman_engineering.htm) a good preview on Roman engineering.

[Kelly]

"We do not know how these rocks were created by humans at this point in ancient history, therefore aliens did it".

Quit putting words in my mouth. I have never claimed that I thought "the gods" were alien extraterrestrials, and I adamently disagree with that concept. I think there is far more evidence suggesting that prior to the melt down of the ice age, there were several very advanced human civilizations and India was one of those places.

The Romans did not build the foundation of Baalbek. The Romans put their temple to Jupiter on a foundation that was already there. I am very familiar with Roman building technologies. The Romans were pretty good builders, but they sure as hell were not capable of building the foundation at Baalbek.

[GenesisNemesis]

Quit putting words in my mouth. I have never claimed that I thought "the gods" were extraterrestrial, and I adamently disagree with that concept. I think there is far more evidence suggesting that prior to the melt down of the ice age, there were several very advanced human civilizations and India was one of those places.

Did these "very advanced human civilizations" have laser-cutting tools? If they did, then they are analogous to aliens.

[Kelly]

Did these "very advanced human civilizations" have laser-cutting tools? If they did, then they are analogous to aliens.

On what grounds do you say that? We have nothing much left but textual evidence and buildings to testify that "somebody" had an advanced technology. To my knowledge the Rig Veda tells the oldest stories that human beings have recorded to date. Those texts indeed suggest a very high level of technology existed, but they seem to suggest that "the gods" were men, rather than aliens.

I am not saying that aliens "couldn't" have come here. I am only saying that a huge number of people merely "assume" aliens were here, when there is more qualified evidence for extraordinarily advanced human societies existing in antiquity in the parts of the world that were not covered by ice during the ice ages.

Where there was ice, the human societies seem to be fairly backward. Where the ice didn't exist, human societies appear to have made huge technological advances. Please remember that the human brain has remained pretty much the same for tens of thousands of years.

How long did it take our society to go from the horse and buggy days of little more than one hundred years ago to the technology that we possess today? Do we have lasers today?

We aren't any smarter than our ancesters were. Our brains are virtually the same size. If we can make these kinds of advances in little more than one hundred years, what makes you think that our ancestors were not capable of doing the same thing?

[GenesisNemesis]

On what grounds do you say that? We have nothing much left but textual evidence and buildings to testify that "somebody" had an advanced technology. To my knowledge the Rig Veda tells the oldest stories that human beings have recorded to date. Those texts indeed suggest a very high level of technology existed, but they seem to suggest that "the gods" were men, rather than aliens.

I am not saying that aliens "couldn't" have come here. I am only saying that a huge number of people merely "assume" aliens were here, when there is more qualified evidence for extraordinarily advanced human societies existing in antiquity in the parts of the world that were not covered by ice during the ice ages.

Where there was ice, the human societies seem to be fairly backward. Where the ice didn't exist, human socities appear to have made huge technological advances. Please remember that the human brain has remained pretty much the same for tens of thousands of years.

How long did it take our society to go from the horse and buggy days of little more than one hundred years ago to the technology that we possess today? Do we have lasers today?

We aren't any smarter than our ancesters were. Our brains are virtually the same size. If we can make these kinds of advances in little more than one hundred years, what makes you think that our ancestors were not capable of doing the same thing?

What makes you think they were capable? I have not seen any evidence at all that ancient civilizations had lasers, information technology, cars, airplanes, etc. Do you think the Inca had lasers, simply because their stones were so finely-placed? Do you think the Mayans had cranes, simply because their temples are so "perfect"? None of the modern conveniences we have today were in the hands of ancient civilizations. Why? Because they didn't have the knowledge we have now in order to create them. It is not a simple matter of "ice or no ice" which makes a civlization technologically advanced or backwards, it is a matter of resources, logistics, and ideas.

[Kelly]

Google search links instead of actual study?

I think I'm beginning to see the problem here.


I have a huge library of books dealing with this subject. Some of those books cost $130 or more, and many are quoted by this nations top archaeological scholars. However, I don't expect most people on this forum to have access to those same books. When I can supply Google links to the data I have already become familiar with through reading and research, I do so, but not because I haven't spent years researching. I do so simply because most people do not have a whole lot of books on the texts from antiquity. I do.

If all I did was supply the info from books, then somebody would bitch because there were no internet links.

When I first started studying the subject, there was no internet and when the internet did become a reality, there were very few online texts at first, but that has all changed in the last few years. Not all the texts that are online are necessarily the best or most reliable translations, but at least they are there and give people who don't have the books in their own librabries a basis for research.

[GenesisNemesis]

I have a huge library of books dealing with this subject. Some of those books cost $130 or more, and many are quoted by this nations top archaeological scholars.

Which archaeological scholars, specifically? I would like to see their credentials.

[Marduk]

I would have an easier time accepting the Igigi et. al. as aliens or alien collaborators than an advanced group of humans. The infra structure needed to produce flying machines, nuclear weapons, genetic manipulation techniques, etc would be enormous, as they are today. Surely remnants of all this would still exist today for easy confirmation, but they don’t. and it was Sitchin who started all this in the 1970’s with his book the "12th Planet", with lots of press from Van Daniken “Chariots of the God’s” though the idea is much older and dates to at least the 1920’s.
I’ve read Sitchin, and found him less than honest, he picks and chooses his translations, and pulls things out of context to make his points. Though the old coot did get me interested in ancient history and mythology.
For an alternative look at the ancient God’s of Sumer that is not quite so fanciful I like Andrew Collins “From the Ashes of Angels" and "Gods of Eden". The is also a fun conspiracy theory book by William Bramley called "The Gods of Eden". Ian Lawton dissects whaky Pyramid theories quite well in “Giaz the Truth". And Lynn Picknett has at the ancient astronauts crew in "The Stargate Conspiracy”

[TheRealityOfMan]

So the OP is basically an examination of the issue of God-belief and UFO belief being synonymous due to lack of proof for their non-existence and only offers anecdotal "experiences".

Yeesh. ALL of history is "anecdotal" except for the last hundred years or so. You can deny what is in the texts all that you want, but you can't deny that Baalbek and countless other inexplicable archaeological sites exist.

So you tell me how somebody got stones of this size into place…
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_baalbek_1.htm

To this day we don't have a technology that is capable of doing this. The stones of Baalbek virtually dwarf anything found at Giza. I don't have a good explanation of how those rocks were placed into the foundation of Baalbek, so if you do, well then have at it. As far as I am concerned somebody had to have had a technology was extremely advanced or those damn rocks wouldn't even be there.

Those rocks are not "mythological." They exist and unless you can explain them away, I think we are going to have to discern that some sort of phenomenol technology had to have been responsible.




All of history is anecdotal except for the last 100 years? Can you explain that further please?

[Kelly]

Do you think the Inca had lasers, simply because their stones were so finely-placed? Do you think the Mayans had cranes, simply because their temples are so "perfect"?

The Mayans and the Inca's were fairly recent civilizations. I don't see anything "impossible" with their archaeological sites. I do see Baalbek as "impossible" though, just as I see Tiwanaku in Bolivia as "impossible" without some sort of advanced technology. The Inca civilization had no idea who built that place and claimed Tiawanaku was there long before they were. The further back we go in history, the more "impossible" the archaeological sites become.

[GenesisNemesis]

The Mayans and the Inca's were fairly recent civilizations. I don't see anything "impossible" with their archaeological sites. I do see Baalbek as "impossible" though, just as I see Tiwanaku in Bolivia as "impossible" without some sort of advanced technology. The Inca civilization had no idea who built that place and claimed Tiawanaku was there long before they were. The further back we go in history, the more "impossible" the archaeological sites become.

No doubt that these constructions might seem "impossible" to us, since we cannot conceive of how the ancient civilizations could possibly done it without our modern technology, but that only shows that they could have done it without modern technology, if we're using Occam's Razor. I see no reason to think that any ancient civilization used similar technologies like ours to build their structures.

[Marduk]

... the Vedic Aryan god known as Indra who is also called by the names of Shiva "the destroyer," ...
If this were true, how come there are places like Kadambur or the Minakshi temple in Madurai, where Indra is said to have worshipped Shiva?


Brahma the Creator, Shiva the Destroyer and Vishnu the Preserver, all parts of the same whole. IIRC

[TheRealityOfMan]

If you build your reality on ancient mythologies you fall into the trap of becoming... a little religious right?

[Kelly]

I’ve read Sitchin, and found him less than honest, he picks and chooses his translations, and pulls things out of context to make his points. Though the old coot did get me interested in ancient history and mythology.
For an alternative look at the ancient God’s of Sumer that is not quite so fanciful I like Andrew Collins “From the Ashes of Angels" and "Gods of Eden". The is also a fun conspiracy theory book by William Bramley called "The Gods of Eden". Ian Lawton dissects whaky Pyramid theories quite well in “Giaz the Truth". And Lynn Picknett has at the ancient astronauts crew in "The Stargate Conspiracy”

I've read all of Sitchin's books and find his works inaccurate and wanting. The word "Nibiru" only exists twice in the Enuma Elish, and I've found it in no other texts. I consider that extremely scanty evidence to base his entire Nibiru hypothesis on. By the way, I have a good friend who made an appointment to meet Sitchin in his office several years ago. Sitchin's office was a huge, posh thing in Rockefeller Plaza. Though it is admittedly just hearsay, my friend knows many Washington DC insiders, and the scuttlebutt was that Sitchin received a grant through the Laurence Rockefeller Group to "prove" the existence of extraterrestrials. Laurence Rockefeller is now dead, but his foundation did indeed hand out substantial grants to several groups providing that they "prove" aliens exist. I honestly don't know how true it is, but Sitchin has made some utterly ENORMOUS mistakes in his work. I guess if all anyone reads is Sitchin and they don't bother to actually read the ancient texts to verify things, then Sitchin does a pretty good job of convincing people to swallow his Nibiru theory hook, line and sinker. Sitchin is not all wet though. Some of what he says is accurate, but there is just no proof that the Anunnaki were aliens from Nibiru.

I've read Collins and Bramley and Picknett as well. A lot of what Collins says is so simplistic it's just ludicrous. Collins however, does a pretty good job of his synopsis of the Edfu texts. I've read "The Mythological Origin of the Egyptian Temple" by Reymond. It's out of print and a very difficult book to find. This excerpt by Collins is very accurate...

"The texts at Edfu are many and varied, and it seems certain that much of their contents are derived from several now lost works, with titles such as the 'Specification of the Mounds of the Early Primeval Age, accredited to the god Thoth, the 'Sacred Book of the early Primeval Age of the Gods' and one called 'Offering the Lotus. 5 All of these extremely ancient works begin with the gradual emergence out of Nun, the primeval waters, of a sacred island, synonymous with the primeval mound of Heliopolitan tradition. This even is said to have occurred during a time-frame spoken of by Reymond as the 'first occasion' – her interpretation of the Egyptian expression 'sep tepi' or the 'First Time.

Surrounding this mound or hill, known then as the Island of the Egg, was a circle or 'channel' of water, 7 and by the edge of this lake was a 'field of reed' and a sacred domain named Wetjeset-Neter 8 ( sometimes Wetjeset-hor). Here were erected posts or columns referred to as 'djed-pillars, which served as perches for the domain's first divine inhabitants, said to number 60. 9 Theses mysterious beings were led by a group of individuals known as the 'drty-falcons', or Sages, who were ruled by an enigmatic figure called the Pn-god, or simply, This one. 10 Other groups and individuals also bore peculiar names such as the Kas, the Flying Ba and Heter-ber. These faceless forms were said to have been the seed of their own creation at the time when the rest of the world had not yet come into being. The most astonishing fact about this strange collection of characters is that they are said to have preceded the appearance of the netjeru, 11 the gods of the Greater and Lesser Ennead revered so highly in Heliopolitan tradition.

The Edfu account speaks at length of the events surrounding the Island of the Egg and the Wetjeset Neter, collectively referred to as the 'homeland', and alludes to some kind of violent conflict which brought to a close the first period of creation. 12 An enemy appears in the form of a serpent known as the Great Leaping One. 13 It opposes the sacred domain's divine inhabitants, who fight back with a weapon known only as the Sound Eye, which emerges from the island and creates further destruction on behalf of its protectors 14 . No explanation of this curious symbol is given, although Reymond felt it to be 'the center of the light that illumines the island.' 15 As a consequence of this mass devastation, the first inhabitants all die, 16 and darkness returns to the world, as it had been before the moment of First Creation. Death and decay are everywhere – a fact recorded in the alternative names now given to the 'Island of the Egg', which include the 'Island of Combat' 17, the 'Island of Trampling' 18 and finally, the 'Island of Peace.' 19

More important, after the violent conflict with the enemy serpent, a major transition occurs in the conception of the sacred island. For a time it vanishes beneath the primeval waters of Nun amid the perpetual darkness that has consumed the world, yet then it emerges again and henceforth is given the title Underworld of the Soul. 20 It also becomes known as the Place of the First Occasion in memory of the death of the drty-falcons and their leader, This One, the Pn-god, who are now collectively referred to as the 'ddw-ghosts and the Ancestors of the First Occasion. 21

We are told that the only 'relic' of the first period of creation to survive the time of conflict is a single 'djed-pillar' located in the Field of Reeds, situated by the side of the waters of Nun. 22 It is subsequently replaced by a new 'perch', or djeba, which becomes the focus of a renewed period of creation involving a second generation of divine inhabitants. They include an important group of individuals known as the Shebtiu,23 the leaders of which are names as 'Wa and Aa, who are described as the "Lords of the Island of Trampling'. 24 Another group of eight Shebtiu – corresponding with the eight Ogdoad, or builder gods, of the Theban creation myth – are given enigmatic titles such as 'The Far Distant, 'The Sailor' and 'The Lord, mighty-chested, who made slaughter, the Soul who lives on Blood.' 25

These gods of Wetjeset-Neter are joined by other important divinities, such as the god Ptah-Tanen, (Enki-Ea) and his 'Children of Tanen' 26 as well as an enigmatic figure named the Falcon, who is known as the 'Lord of the Perch' and 'The Winged One. 27 He commands a further group of individuals called the 'crew of the Falcon'. 28 Collectively, these ancestral gods are also described as the Senior Ones or the Eldest Ones,29 from which we derive the term 'Elders' 'Elder gods' and 'Elder culture to denote Egypt's divine race. (Collins, Andrew, Gods of Eden, Bear & Company, 1998, 2002 pp 174-176)

We can identify "The Far Distant" as Utnapishtum, the Mesopotamian Noah in the Gilgamesh text; they both have precisely the same epitaph. "The Sailor" was the epitaph of the god "Yam" in the Canaanite texts found in Ugarit, and Yam corresponds to "Yama" in the Vedic texts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama Both Yam and Yama appear to be alternative names for the Egyptian god, Osirus. Baal kills Yam in the Canaanite texts just as Seth kills Osirus in the Egyptian texts. Osirus was the Egyptian god who "sailed" in Ra's "boat of a million years."

And the "P-n god" of the Edfu texts was, in my opinion, a word akin to the Vedic term, "Panis." According to the Vedic scholar, David Frawley, author of "Gods, Sages and Kings," the ancient Vedic Aryans considered all foreign nations who would not worship their gods "Pani" and as the Vedic Aryans colonized the Middle East, they evidently attempted to kill off the leaders of all the civilizations that would not bow to them or sacrifice to their gods. This is very, very evident in the Babylonian Enuma Elish and other texts.

There is much to suggest that Apsu (Abzu Rishtu) of the Babylonian Creation Text was one and the same with "Alalu" of the Hurrian texts, and these names were one and the same with original creator god, "The Amen," recognized as the original creator god by Egypt, (not Ra/Marduk) who is apparently also named in Rev. 3:14. Since all these texts clearly state that the Anunnaki killed Apsu-Alalu-Amen "in the beginning" I conclude he had to be one and the same with the "P-n god" or "This one" in the Edfu texts. If I am correct, then this being was evidently revered from Eridu to Egypt prior to the Anunnaki invasion of the Middle East.

[Kelly]

Brahma the Creator, Shiva the Destroyer and Vishnu the Preserver, all parts of the same whole. IIRC

Well, you've gotta admit, all Vedic gods were seen as aspects of Brahma. Vishnu, however, was called "the god of a thousand names" and both Rama and Krishna were considered avatars (incarnations) of Vishnu. The Rama Empire of India ended about the same time that the Anunnaki took over Eridu, and soon after that, Enki-Ea-Ptah and his sons, Ra and Thoth (and possibly Nergal,) then take over Egypt. There is much to suggest that Rama was considered one and the same with Ra/Marduk; a very powerful dude, and Ra/Marduk was also a god of many, many names like Vishnu.

"Rama ruled the earth for 11,000 years.
He gave a year-long festival
In this very Naimisha Forest.
All of this land was his kingdom then;
One age of the world ago'
Long before now, and far in the past.
Rama was king from the Center of the World,
To the Four Oceans' shores."
(From the Ramayana)

You will note that there is absolutely no place in India where a land mass touches "Four Oceans' shores." And according to everything I've read, there was only one place that was considered "the Center of the World" by the Ancients, and that place was the Giza Plateau, which was called "the Rostau" or "the Island of the Egg" in the Edfu texts. If Rama was actually one and the same with Ra/Marduk, then his Epitaph could certainly be "'The Lord, mighty-chested, who made slaughter, the Soul who lives on Blood," and that slaughter is clearly described in both the Edfu texts, and the Enuma Elish not to mention the slaughters in the Mahabharata and the Ramayana.

Apparently the blood really flowed...

Curiously enough, Ra's second in command, Thoth-Hermes-Mercury, had animal totems of both the Ibis and the Monkey in the Egyptian religion. You will note in the Ramayana, Rama's sidekick "Hanuman" was also called "the Monkey God." I conclude that Thoth and Hanuman were one and the same. And by the way, the Vedic Vimanas were powered by "Mercury vortex engines" according to the Vedic texts. As Thoth was the Egyptian god of science who was also called Mercury, we may will suspect he had much the same role in the Vedic histories.

Obviously, in the Edfu texts, "Aa and Wa" are "Ea and Ra." "Aa," by the way is a spelling that was unique to the Hurrians for Ea. In the Hurrian texts, Alalu was the ancient god who supposedly ruled the heavens before the Vedic-Mesopotamian deity, Anu, led a revolt against him. Alalu's son, Kumarbi, corresponds to "Kingu" or "Qingu" in the Babylonian Enuma Elish. He is the god who is killed and then bled, and it is his blood that is genetically manipulated to produce the human slaves talked about in the Mesopotamian texts.

Ea's famous totem (Enki in Sumerian, Ptah in the Egyptian, Varuna in the Vedic) was indeed the Serpent. It is Ea, also known as Nudimmud in the Enuma Elish, who was the head scientist in charge of manipulating the human gene pool into slavery to the Anunnaki gods. Ea corresponds to the Serpent or the Snake in the Garden of Eden tale found in Genesis Two. He is the god who creates the Adam as a slave (or the Adamu/Adapa) in the Mesopotamian tales.

If you build your reality on ancient mythologies you fall into the trap of becoming... a little religious right?

My forte' is ancient history. One cannot research ancient history without researching the ancient texts. You might make the same observation of every professor teaching the histories of the ancients in every major university around the world. You simply can't study those texts without becomeing familiar with ancient religious thought. So what was your point?

[Ronin]

So the OP is basically an examination of the issue of God-belief and UFO belief being synonymous due to lack of proof for their non-existence and only offers anecdotal "experiences".



Yeesh. ALL of history is "anecdotal" except for the last hundred years or so. You can deny what is in the texts all that you want, but you can't deny that Baalbek and countless other inexplicable archaeological sites exist.

Yeesh. That is not true.

I am a collector or original texts and I have accumulated some historical works from further than the last hundred years or so.

Archeological sites are not "inexplicble", Kelly, unless you just want to dream up your own claims and expect others to blindly accept them.

So you tell me how somebody got stones of this size into place…
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_baalbek_1.htm

To this day we don't have a technology that is capable of doing this. The stones of Baalbek virtually dwarf anything found at Giza. I don't have a good explanation of how those rocks were placed into the foundation of Baalbek, so if you do, well then have at it. As far as I am concerned somebody had to have had a technology was extremely advanced or those damn rocks wouldn't even be there.

Again, disproof is not proof of anything at all.

Show your work.

You are the one making the claims.

Those rocks are not "mythological." They exist and unless you can explain them away, I think we are going to have to discern that some sort of phenomenol technology had to have been responsible.

:rolleyes:

[Ronin]

Google search links instead of actual study?

I think I'm beginning to see the problem here.


I have a huge library of books dealing with this subject. Some of those books cost $130 or more, and many are quoted by this nations top archaeological scholars. However, I don't expect most people on this forum to have access to those same books. When I can supply Google links to the data I have already become familiar with through reading and research, I do so, but not because I haven't spent years researching. I do so simply because most people do not have a whole lot of books on the texts from antiquity. I do.

If all I did was supply the info from books, then somebody would bitch because there were no internet links.

When I first started studying the subject, there was no internet and when the internet did become a reality, there were very few online texts at first, but that has all changed in the last few years. Not all the texts that are online are necessarily the best or most reliable translations, but at least they are there and give people who don't have the books in their own librabries a basis for research.

Emphasis mine.

The fact that you seem so sure, however wrong, speaks volumes.

The fact that you would assert this without evidence...even more so.

:wave:

[Ronin]

My forte' is ancient history. One cannot research ancient history without researching the ancient texts. You might make the same observation of every professor teaching the histories of the ancients in every major university around the world. You simply can't study those texts without becomeing familiar with ancient religious thought. So what was your point?

Your "forte'"?

My forte' is as well and I find your credulity stark and amazingly naive.

Moving on...

[Ronin]

This thread would really be better served in BC&H, in my view.

[Kelly]

Emphasis mine.

The fact that you seem so sure, however wrong, speaks volumes.

The fact that you would assert this without evidence...even more so.


So what is your problem, Ronin? You may indeed have a good library of the ancient texts. I believe I said "most people" rather than "all people." I was simply trying to include online references that "most people" could easily access.

Your "forte'"?

My forte' is as well and I find your credulity stark and amazingly naive.


And I find your credulity pompous with no discernable evidence to back your statements up. Where are your references? At least I endevor to provide them.

If you are going to make such grandious statements, try a little honest debate if you disagree. So far you've resorted to labeling and grandstanding.

Whoopie doo...

I thought your "forte'" was being an "athiest and a secular humanist" and your specialty was "Criminal Justice with a split minor in Forensic Science and Business Law". Has your online public profile magically changed?

[Kelly]

Archeological sites are not "inexplicble", Kelly, unless you just want to dream up your own claims and expect others to blindly accept them.

Is that so? Will then I openly invite you to carve out megalithic blocks of granite (like exist in the Great Pyramid) with nothing but hardened copper hand tools. Good luck! :notworthy:

[Ronin]

Emphasis mine.

The fact that you seem so sure, however wrong, speaks volumes.

The fact that you would assert this without evidence...even more so.


So what is your problem, Ronin?

Why does it have to be that I have a "problem"?

What is your problem?

:Cheeky:

You may indeed have a good library of the ancient texts. I believe I said "most people" rather than "all people." I was simply trying to include online references that "most people" could easily access.

Nice song and dance.

The point is that assuming the intellectual level of readers and participants is irrelevant.

Get on with providing your proof.

Your "forte'"?

My forte' is as well and I find your credulity stark and amazingly naive.


And I find your credulity pompous with no discernable evidence to back your statements up. Where are your references? At least I endevor to provide them.

Yeah...google search and fringe websites that just happen to agree with your view.

Come on...is this the level of "proof" you accept?

If you are going to make such grandious statements, try a little honest debate if you disagree. So far you've resorted to labeling and grandstanding.

Pot/kettle.

Whoopie doo...

:notworthy:

I thought your "forte'" was being an "athiest and a secular humanist" and your specialty was "Criminal Justice with a split minor in Forensic Science and Business Law". Has your online public profile magically changed?

That is my career, Kelly.

I can actually walk and chew gum at the same time as well.

:Cheeky:

What happened to all the peace and love that is imbued upon others..oh...that's right...you have to first agree with them on some mystical level first.

:wave:

[Ronin]

Archeological sites are not "inexplicble", Kelly, unless you just want to dream up your own claims and expect others to blindly accept them.

Is that so? Will then I openly invite you to carve out megalithic blocks of granite (like exist in the Great Pyramid) with nothing but hardened copper hand tools. Good luck! :notworthy:

What, you never heard of slavery before?

[Kelly]

What, you never heard of slavery before?

Oh, there were plenty of slaves in antiquity, Ronin, no doubt about that. Never-the-less, I doubt that slaves would have been able to carve granite with hardened copper tools regardless of how many slaves there might have been.

There is plenty of granite stone available at most quarry suppliers. So go get yourself a piece of granite, and carve it into a perfect block using nothing but hardened copper hand tools. Go ahead and "proove" it can be done!

I dare you (or anybody else) to try it. :Cheeky:

Oh, and while you are at it, do explain how slaves managed to haul 100,000 pound blocks of stone up to an altitude of over 12,000 feet to build Tiahuanacu. Most human beings could barely manage to breath at that altitude, let alone manage to drag megalithic blocks of stone around.

[Ronin]

What, you never heard of slavery before?

Oh, there were plenty of slaves in antiquity, Ronin, no doubt about that. Never-the-less, I doubt that slaves would have been able to carve granite with hardened copper tools regardless of how many slaves there might have been.

There is plenty of granite stone available at most quarry suppliers. So go get yourself a piece of granite, and carve it into a perfect block using nothing but hardened copper hand tools. Go ahead and "proove" it can be done!

I dare you (or anybody else) to try it. :Cheeky:

Oh, and while you are at it, do explain how slaves managed to haul 100,000 pound blocks of stone up to an altitude of over 12,000 feet to build Tiahuanacu. Most human beings could barely manage to breath at that altitude, let alone manage to drag megalithic blocks of stone around.

What you doubt and what you assert "most human beings" can do is irrelevant.

Can you build an space shuttle?

Can humans build a space shuttle?

You've been playing far too much Tomb Raider, in my view.

:wave:

[Kelly]

Yeah...google search and fringe websites that just happen to agree with your view.

Come on...is this the level of "proof" you accept?

No, as a matter of fact Ronin, I can quote word for word from books written by Mark S. Smith, Skirball Professor of Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies at New York University; Harry A Hoffner Jr. who is the John A. Wilson Professor and Co-Director of the Chicago Hittite Dictionary, University of Chicago; Michael David Coogan, Professor of Religious Studies, Stonehill College, North Easton Massachusetts; Nicolas Grimal, Professor of Egyptology at the University of Paris, Sorbonne; and Stephanie Dalley, professor of Akkadian Studies at the Universities of Edinburgh and Oxford, just to name a few. Oh and let's not forget Budge and Pritchard and a few more well-respected reliables either!

Furthermore none of the textual sites I have pointed people to which have a fairly decent number of online copies of documented texts can be considered "fringe." The texts are what they are. The online translations may not be the best translations available, but they are free, and they give anyone who has never actually read any of the texts the opportunity to do so.

Before you accuse me of being nothing more than a student of "fringe websites" you'd better know what in the hell you are talking about, because you are really out in left field.

Don't dis my sources. Scholars from one end of the earth to the other have been working their butts off to bring those sources online! You might show the grace to have a little respect for the labor of others.

[Ronin]

Yeah...google search and fringe websites that just happen to agree with your view.

Come on...is this the level of "proof" you accept?

No, as a matter of fact Ronin, I can quote word for word from books written by Mark S. Smith, Skirball Professor of Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies at New York University; Harry A Foffner Jr. who is the John A. Wilson Professor and Co-Director of the Chicago Hittite Dictionary, University of Chicago; Michael David Coogan, Professor of Religious Studies, Stonehill College, North Easton Massachisetts; Nicolas Grimal, Professor of Egyptology at the University of Paris, Sorbonne; and Stephanie Dalley, professor of Akkadian Studies at the Universities of Edinburgh and Oxford, just to name a few. Oh and let's not forget Budge and Pritchard and a few more well-respected reliables either!

Before you accuse me of being nothing more than a student of "fringe websites" you'd better know what in the hell you are talking about, because you are really out in left field.

I'm not out in left field, Kelly...just because I happen to disagree with you.

You've absolutely no proof to back up your inferences that humans could not have built those very primitive sites using the tools and cultural knowledge at hand at the time.

It is an even further stretch to assert some sort of alien (intergalactic) intervention.

I was raised in the 1970's, Kelly...I'm long past "Chariots of the Gods" by now.

:cool:

For those really interested in furthering their actual knowledge base:

Tiahuanacu (http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/research/Exp_Rese_Disc/Americas/tiwanaku/questions.shtml)

Tiwanaku is a magnet for Atlantis hunters and a variety of new agers. The idea that Tiwanaku is 14,000 years old is based on a rather faulty study done in 1926. Since then, there has been a huge quantity of work both on the archaeology and geology of the area, and all data indicates that Tiwanaku existed from around A.D. 300-500 to 900-1000.

Still, the Atlantis hunters flock to the site. I believe the Discovery Channel is even making another documentary on the possibility that the Andes is the lost continent described by Plato.

As for the elephants and other animals that are supposed to be on the Gateway, I really can't find them myself. One carving that is frequently cited as an elephant (including by several guides) is in fact a condor.

[Kelly]

It is an even further stretch to assert some sort of alien (intergalactic) intervention.

You are actually very funny. The very LAST thing I would do is endevor to tell people that the Anunnaki were "aliens" from some intergalactic space federation. I think it is claptrap.

I don't believe that at all. What I do believe is that the evidence suggests that thoroughly HUMAN societies reached very high levels of technology in the very ancient past.

I believe the Anunnaki were an elitist group from a technologically advanced HUMAN society. Period!

Quit assuming you think you know what I am talking about. I am perfectly capable of expressing myself, and I really don't need you to put words in my mouth.

In fact, I think "alien intervention" was just as useful a smokescreen in antiquity as it is for the powers that be today.

I was raised in the 1970's, Kelly...I'm long past "Chariots of the Gods" by now.

And I was raised in the 50's and 60's so it looks like I've got a few more years under my belt than you do.

And I also maintain "the gods" had the philosophical scrupels of gnats; not much different than Dick Cheney and his gang...

[anders]

If this were true, how come there are places like Kadambur or the Minakshi temple in Madurai, where Indra is said to have worshipped Shiva?
… The Indologist, Koenraad Elst proposes that Shiva of Puranic Hinduism is a continuation of the Vedic Indra. He gives several reasons for his hypothesis. Both Shiva and Indra are known for having a thirst for Soma. Both are associated with mountains, rivers, male fertility, fierceness, fearlessness, warfare, transgression of established mores, the Aum sound, the Supreme Self. In the Rig Veda the term śiva is used to refer to Indra. Indra, like Shiva, is likened to a bull.
I'm not exactly alone in finding Elst not very convincing.

Another visitor enters the hall. He is Shiva, in the form of a hermit. On his chest lies a circular cluster of hairs, intact at the circumference but with a gap in the middle. Shiva reveals that each of these chest hairs corresponds to the life of one Indra. Each time a hair falls, one Indra dies and another replaces him.
So, clearly Shiva is not a successor of Indra. Thank you.

There are hundreds of Hindu sects. In many sects, Indra is considered the most ancient form of Shiva, while Shiva is his more modern counterpart.
That's interesting. Please name a few of them.

[Ronin]

It is an even further stretch to assert some sort of alien (intergalactic) intervention.

You are actually very funny. The very LAST thing I would do is endevor to tell people that the Anunnaki were "aliens" from some intergalactic space federation. I think it is claptrap.

I don't believe that at all. What I do believe is that the evidence suggests that thoroughly HUMAN societies reached very high levels of technology in the very ancient past.

I believe the Anunnaki were an elitist group from a technologically advanced HUMAN society. Period!

And yet you posted this:

No. You seriously need to prove your claims. I don't care whether you are looking at the Bible texts, the Mesopotamian texts or the texts written by the Vedic Aryans, the texts invariably say that human armies with reasonably low tech weapons like maces, bows and arrows and swords were battling it out on land, but they were being led by "gods" who flew through the air in aerial craft.

If these texts are just "myths" then people dating back to at least 2500 BC must have surely had extraordinary imaginations; in fact, they must have been science fiction authors par excellence and unparalleled by even the best sci-fi writers of today.

You could take any one of the diagrams detailed in the various Vimana texts and present them as drawings taken from the eye witness accounts of the present day UFO phenomenon, and you couldn't tell them apart.

So in my view, you cannot define the extra-Biblical accounts as "myths" until you can factually disprove the eyewitness accounts of UFOs today.

Can you do that?

Unfortunately, the Old Testament god appears to fly a UFO/Vimana. How are you going to debunk that?

What do you expect readers to make of that?

Quit assuming you think you know what I am talking about. I am perfectly capable of expressing myself, and I really don't need you to put words in my mouth.

I don't think that you are expressing yourself well at all, Kelly.

Do you assert that UFO/Vimana "gods" provided "advanced technologies" to primitive civilizations or not?

If not, why keep up the facade of the "you can't disprove fairies so you're all being ignorant" arguments?

In fact, I think "alien intervention" was just as useful a smokescreen in antiquity as it is for the powers that be today.

Okaaay...when should we wrap our heads in tin foil?

Are you claiming some sort of governmental coverup ala Men in Black or Independence Day?

I was raised in the 1970's, Kelly...I'm long past "Chariots of the Gods" by now.

And I was raised in the 50's and 60's so it looks like I've got a few more years under my belt than you do.

The age reference was simply to tie in to the nonsense being purported here in this thread with that which was being purported by Von Däniken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_Gods) in his book of new age theoriesl

And I also maintain "the gods" had the philosophical scrupels of gnats; not much different than Dick Cheney and his gang...

Man, I have no idea where you're going with this...good luck.

:wave:

[everettf]

This planet has been around for 4.5 billion years. I personally think that there has been a few life cycles. Periods of time when life evolved to a similar technology we have now or maybe further. I mentioned in another post just how far we have come. http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=5320684#post5320684

I have brought this up a few times and it usually gets side tracked.

[WVIncagold]

Archeological sites are not "inexplicble", Kelly, unless you just want to dream up your own claims and expect others to blindly accept them.

Is that so? Will then I openly invite you to carve out megalithic blocks of granite (like exist in the Great Pyramid) with nothing but hardened copper hand tools. Good luck! :notworthy:

Wow! this sentence is incredibly naive for someone who supposedly speaks from a historical knowledge. Please inform us how you make hardened copper? what is the metallurgical composition?:rolleyes:

[Kelly]

Anders posted:
I'm not exactly alone in finding Elst not very convincing…. So, clearly Shiva is not a successor of Indra. Thank you.

Anders, if you will note, I was quoting from Wikipedia sources. If you see Indra and Shiva as two entirely different deities, fine; I have no problem with that. There are hundreds of different Hindu sects and they appear to be as different in their opinions as any numbers of Christian denominations have differing views.

My intent here is not to discuss the various intricacies of Vedic philosophy. My interest in the Vedic texts is primarily because I see them as a reference to the oldest examples of earth's historical accounts that we have available to date. Perhaps someday we will uncover texts that reference parts of history that go back before the Rig Veda does. Never-the-less, it is my opinion that the Rig references an age that specifically deals with the era when the Big Melt Down of the last ice age(s) was/were occurring.

Everttf posted
This planet has been around for 4.5 billion years. I personally think that there has been a few life cycles. Periods of time when life evolved to a similar technology we have now or maybe further. I mentioned in another post just how far we have come. http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthr...84#post5320684

I have brought this up a few times and it usually gets side tracked.

Thank you Everett! This is precisely where I am going! :)

WVincagold posted:
Wow! this sentence is incredibly naive for someone who supposedly speaks from a historical knowledge. Please inform us how you make hardened copper? what is the metallurgical composition?

This is not my "incredibly naïve" theory, but has been the standard theory posited by traditional Egyptologists for decades and decades. To this day, Zawi Hawass and the Supreme Council of Egyptian Antiquities maintains that the megalithic blocks that make up the Great Pyramid were chiseled out with hardened copper tools. I find the concept completely ludicrous myself, never-the-less, it’s the generally accepted theory among the so called experts…

"Copper may have been the first metal to be worked in Egypt, even before the metallic gold. The ores had a 12% copper content and given the scarcity of fuel and the difficulties of transportation one may well marvel at the fact, that they succeeded at extracting copper at all. In the beginning it was probably worked cold. In early Egyptian graves copper ornaments, vessels and weapons have been found as well as needles, saws, scissors, pincers, axes, adzes, harpoon and arrow tips, and knives.

This wide array of tools made of a metal difficult to cast and even with tempering too soft to be of use with any but the softest stone and wood shows the urgent need people felt for tools more flexible than what could be made of wood and stone.

Pure copper (like silver or gold) has a hardness factor of 2.5 to 3 on the Moh scale which is just about the same as limestone's. Naturally occurring copper is somewhat harder due to metallic impurities. Thanks to tempering, copper chisels and saws could be used to work freshly quarried limestone from the 4th dynasty onwards, but annealing with fire and hammering also rendered the tools more brittle. Because of the metal's softness, copper tools lost their edge quickly and had to be resharpened frequently.

When cutting and drilling grit was probably used, which lodged itself in the edges of the soft copper bits and performed the abrasive action.

At first copper and bronze tools were similar to their stone equivalents, but soon the properties of the metal, among them malleability, began to influence their design. Fishing hooks were given barbs. Knives grew longer. Sowing needles were fashioned less than 1½ mm thick."
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/tools.htm

[Kelly]

Ronin posted:
Are you claiming some sort of governmental coverup ala Men in Black or Independence Day?...Man, I have no idea where you're going with this...good luck.

Ronin, like it or not, Project Paperclip DID occur, and at the end of WWII, beginning in 1945, the US brought over somewhere between 600-1600 (the numbers very greatly in the accounts) top Nazi scientists at the end of WWII. It's common knowledge; there is no "cover-up" to it, at least today there isn't, however at the time these events occurred, the common citizen was not apparently informed of this plan. Personally, I rather suspect that most Americans would have been horrified, but the government didn't bother to ask the US citizens what they thought. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Paperclip

Those Nazi scientists were evidently used in various top secret military, CIA and NASA projects and unless you happen to have a top-secret clearance, we may assume that whatever knowledge those Nazi scientists had was used to America's full technological advantage and those projects were withheld from the general population's knowledge. If that qualifies as a "cover-up" in some people's view, I rather suspect that opinion may indeed be justified.

It is well known that during WWII Russian, American and allied pilots all witnessed "foo fighters" and other strange, inexplicable disk-shaped aircraft in the skies over Europe and particularly Germany. Today we absolutely know that the Nazi's were indeed working on advanced aeronautical devices that by most opinions would indeed fall under the category of flying saucers or UFOs.

http://www.eyepod.org/Nazi-Disc-Photos.html

These photographs look quite real to me. Do they look genuine to you? After all, you have experience in forensics, so I am actually quite interested in your professional opinion. These are not alien built craft; they very obviously were built by human beings.

A great number of authors today have been researching the Nazi flying disk operation, and actually a great deal of information has been brought to light.

Although I can find no documented confirmation for it, in the book, "Secret Societies" by the German author, Jan van Hilsing, (pen name) he writes extensively about the German secret societies that influenced the Nazi rise to power and he states…

"In 1917 the occultist Baron Rudolf Von Sebottendorf; the Gurdjeff disciple, Karl Haushofer; the ace pilot, Lothar Waiz; Prelate Gernot of the secret "Societas Templi Marcioni" (The Inheritors of the Knights Templar) and Maria Orsic, a transcendental medium from Zagreb met in Vienna. They all had extensively studied the "Golden Dawn", its teachings, rituals and especially its knowledge about Asian secret lodges. Sebottendorf and Haushofer were experienced travelers of India and Tibet and much influenced by the teachings and myths of those places. During the First World War Karl Haushofer had made contacts with one of the most influential secret societies of Asia, the Tibetan Yellow Hats (dGe-lugs-pa). This sect was formed in 1409 by the Buddhist reformer Tsong-kha-pa. Haushofer was initiated and swore to commit suicide should his mission fail. The contacts between Haushofer and the yellow Hats led in the Twenties to the formation of Tibetan colonies in Germany."(ibid. page 167)

This is, to my knowledge, one of the first times Germany officially sent people into Tibet on an information gathering mission. According to the research from any number of authors, Germany continued to send teams of explorers into Tibet, India and Mongolia between WWI and WWII. At the end of WWII, Russians entering Berlin found six Tibetan men apparently from the Tibetan Yellow Hat sect lying dead in a circle who had apparently committed suicide together. A few days later somewhere around 1000 additional Asians were reportedly found dead who were dressed in German military uniforms and had apparently died in combat alongside of the German soldiers. We have really no idea whether those people were from India, Tibet or Mongolia; we only know that they were recognized as coming from that general area.

Needless to say, there seems to have been a very explicit connection between Nazi Germany and the various inheritors of ancient Vedic literature. I am of the personal opinion that all the hoopla about Nazi Germany's interest in Tibet and India's occult histories was primarily a convenient smokescreen. I think the evidence to date indicates that the Germans continued to send teams into India, Tibet and Mongolia because they were looking for one thing in particular, and that was people from ANY religious sect within the entire region that may have had access to additional unpublished ancient data dealing with the subject of Vimanas and nuclear warfare and any of the other technologies suggested by any number of Vedic texts. I adamantly suspect the Germans, who are by their nature a very pragmatic bunch, were looking specifically for lamas and monks who had access to additional unpublished technological data who were willing to work with the Nazis and share that information. The German Nazis were opportunists. I frankly think they would have avowed a belief in any sect's specific doctrine if they thought doing so would have enabled them to lay their hands on ancient scientific knowledge about these subjects that had previously not become a part of the published Vedic accounts.

And apparently at least one of the religious sects with access to additional unpublished technological information did indeed decide to cooperate with the Germans between WWI and WWII, because Nazi Germany does evidently appear to be the first modern industrial society to successfully build a Vimana. The photographs of the German flying disks look exactly like the detailed drawings found in any number of the Vimana texts.

But what you may not realize, Ronin, is that Germany was apparently being funded by a group of international bankers, and unfortunately, there is much to suggest that specific group of bankers were one and the same with the private banking corporations that just happen to own the Federal Reserve Bank. As evidence, I bring to the table part of a speech spoken before congress in 1931 by Congressman Lewis T. McFadden (D PA) who served as the Chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee for 12 years. His testimony is, by the way, duly recorded in the congressional records. McFadden stated…

"After WWI, Germany fell into the hands of the German International Bankers. Those bankers bought her and they now own her, lock, stock and barrel. They purchased her industries, they have mortgages on her soil, they control her production; they control all her public utilities. The International German Bankers have subsidized the present government of Germany and they have also supplied every dollar of the money Adolf Hitler has used in his lavish campaign to build up a threat to the government of Bruening. When Bruening fails to obey the orders of the German International Bankers, Hitler is brought forth to scare the Germans into submission. Through the Federal Reserve Board over thirty billions of dollars was pumped into Germany…You have all heard of the spending that has taken place in Germany…modernistic dwellings, her great planetariums, her gymnasiums, her swimming pools, her fine public highways, her perfect factories….All this was done with our money. All this was given to Germany through the Federal Reserve Board. The Federal Reserve Board has pumped so many billions of dollars into Germany that they dare not name the total."

McFadden said these words just eight years before Nazi Germany invaded Poland in 1939. His speech was made during the onset of the Great Depression when countless millions of Americans were homeless and starving. No doubt McFadden was furious. He was one of the few men on earth who would have actually had access to records that provided the intimate details of where the Fed's money was being spent. To give you an idea of just how much money the Fed owners were pumping into Germany between WWI and WWII, thirty billion dollars in 1931 would have been the equivalent of about $750 billion dollars in today's inflated currency.

Today a significant number of qualified and intelligent researchers have been digging pretty deep into just who owns the Fed. The best research to date tells us the following eight banking families privately own the Federal Reserve Bank.

1. The Rothchilds (Rothchild Banks of London and Berlin)
2. Lazard Freres (Eugene Mayer) (Lazard Brothers Bank of Paris)
3. Israel Sieff (Israel Moses Sieff Banks of Italy)
4. Kuhn Loeb Company (Jacob H. Schiff) (Warburgs) (Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York)
5. Warburg Company (Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Germany and Amsterdam)
6. Lehman Brothers (Lehman Brothers Bank of New York)
7. Goldman Sachs (Goldman Sachs Bank of New York)
8. The Rockefeller family and J.P. Morgan interests (JP Morgan Chase Bank of New York which just bought out Bear Stearns with money "borrowed" from the Fed)

These are the banks that were apparently funding Germany between WWI and WWII. Seven out of eight of these banking families, including the Rockefellers, have their family roots in Germany. Inevitably, I must conclude that these were the people who were actually funding Germany's research into flying disks and ancient Vedic technologies. Adolf Hitler was probably quite unaware of where the money was really coming from as he repeatedly expressed his hatred of the international banking families. I suspect most of the 30 billion in Fed money was funneled through one occult society or another in order to disguise its source.

Any way you look at it, the money that paid for Nazi Germany's rise to power was earned from the interest Americans were paying on debts owed to the Federal Reserve Banking system. And America also ended up with the scientists who were working on Germany's flying disk project.

So, do I think the UFOs witnessed by millions of people in the world today necessarily means that our planet is being "visited" by aliens from other worlds? No, I do not. I think a great many of those craft are very advanced American experimental aircraft. In the 40s, 50s and 60s, I think most of the UFO witnesses must have been sighting German disks. Since Russia also inherited a large number of Germany's scientists as well, they too likely have advanced UFO type aircraft today. Additionally, many Nazi scientists are said to have escaped to South America, and for all we know they also continued to build these vehicles.

During the time that Germany evidently scoured Tibet, India and Mongolia looking for unpublished technological information, those Asian nations were still locked in poverty and though they must have had additional access to texts on the ancient Vedic technologies, none of these nations had the money or scientific where-with-all at the time to attempt to develop those technologies on their own. It's no wonder that monks and lamas from some of the Vedic sects apparently decided to cooperate with Germany. But those earlier limiting conditions have radically changed, particularly for India in the last few years. India now very definitely has everything they need to rebuild the flying vimanas of yesteryear.

China remains the wild card in all of this, for the "Great Dragon" and "flying Nagas" (snake demons) that Indra battled in the Rig Veda certainly implies that China too may have inherited ancient technological information on flying craft, and if they have, I suspect China would certainly be interested in developing a space program around Vimana type technologies. After all, the Bhardwaj text describes Vimanas as being of three classes; (1) those that can travel from place to place; (2) those that travel from one country to another; and (3) those that travel between planets. Is there a space agency in any modern nation that wouldn't be interested in developing Vimana technologies? I seriously doubt it.

I think it's extremely reasonable to conclude that any number of nations today would be either secretly building these craft, or planning to do so in the very near future. And, having researched the UFO phenomenon for a significant number of years, (since 1959) I also suspect that any modern nation engaged in said endeavors would find the "space alien" scenario an extremely convenient cover for those operations.

So do I believe that the UFO phenomenon represents "alien extraterrestrials" or "angels" or "gods"? No, I do not. I think those aircraft are being flown by men, albeit, no doubt some of those men probably do indeed have "god complexes."

As a matter of fact, I suspect that somewhere in the many caverns and caves between Afghanistan and Mongolia is a stash of ancient vimanas and Vedic weapons of war that is known about by a handful of people and is now being back-engineered. At the very least, I am reasonably certain that those vehicles and weapons were hidden away in antiquity, because when the Sumerian god, Enlil, wanted additional weapons to fight his enemies in the Middle East, the Mesopotamian texts state he appealed to Anu, and Anu agreed to bring "weapons of old" out of their ancient hiding places. According to everything