What if God DID give you a sign but you dump it?

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?

I can predict (as the grass-eating prophet in goat skin I am :Cheeky:) an avalanche of quick and cocky answers to this OP, but I think it's something to really think about, if one is still open minded about the whole thing. The christian God is definitely not a Santa Claus (definitely no free lunch in the bible...) so even if you do admit to the possiblity (however unlikely it may seem to me or you) of his existence, it isn't expectable he will/would be "on request" about it.

[GenesisNemesis]

I usually equate any supernatural or paranormal "signs" with "bumps in the night" and they are not worthy of further investigation unless they're really, really annoying. God giving me a sign probably wouldn't change that.

[general_koffi]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

If you don't put your name on the gift, I'm not going to know it's from you. Unlike God, I am not omniscient.

It is far more logical to assume the natural, rather than the supernatural. Particularly a specific version of the supernatural. How do I know that surviving a terrible car accident wasn't by the mercy of Thanatos, for example, instead of the single Jewish/Christian god?

If I was given a sign that was clearly supernatural in its nature, I would first assume that I had lost my sanity.

Sorry. I just don't think magically.

[Deus Ex]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?



How could we distinguish our 'sign' from a coincidental event? How would we know it as a supernatural sign?

[pete]

Actually... giving 'signs' that are ambiguous and uncertain would be entirely in character for the christian god. He is capricious, immature, and cruel... and should be removed from office.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Logos, I think that is a valid question you ask... I feel God's existence in the silence that causes the skeptic doubt. Why must God perform special tricks when she is everywhere observable doing the miraculous through the mundane?

[seanc]

First, I'd ask myself why a god would give me a sign. My guess would be to show some sort of indication that the god exists and/or is directly involved in the goings-on of the world.

With that in mind, why would the god use anything less than an unambiguously divine occurrence to send this message?

[Robin Z]

To put it in Bayesian terms: my current prior on God's existence is extraordinarily low (i.e. I consider the hypothesis to be very nearly completely unlikely), and my current evidence set strongly reinforces that assigned probability. A sign such as that would give a higher posterior probability, true, but even a literally-unbelievable demonstration wouldn't raise it enough to make me consider it likely. It'd be like going from odds of 1:10^387 to odds of 1:10^383 - a major quantitative increase, true, but not one which makes a qualitative difference.

[djrafikie]

surviving a car crash is supposed to be a sign from GOD?
wtf.
by that token you could decide almost anything is a sign from god, I love the way the religious attribute selective successes to god, but not the negatives.
Delusion is a powerful thing.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

surviving a car crash is supposed to be a sign from GOD?
wtf.
by that token you could decide almost anything is a sign from god, I love the way the religious attribute selective successes to god, but not the negatives.
Delusion is a powerful thing.

Are you assigning the negatives of life on God, or just God's negatives? How do you make the difference? How can you be keeping God's scorecard? Ebola virus: a consequence of a world on autopilot or God's batting miss?

[Lógos Sokratikós]

To put it in Bayesian terms: my current prior on God's existence is extraordinarily low (i.e. I consider the hypothesis to be very nearly completely unlikely), and my current evidence set strongly reinforces that assigned probability. A sign such as that would give a higher posterior probability, true, but even a literally-unbelievable demonstration wouldn't raise it enough to make me consider it likely. It'd be like going from odds of 1:10^387 to odds of 1:10^383 - a major quantitative increase, true, but not one which makes a qualitative difference.

I think you're intellectualizing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectualization) a bit (people don't work like calculators), but oh well.

[djrafikie]

surviving a car crash is supposed to be a sign from GOD?
wtf.
by that token you could decide almost anything is a sign from god, I love the way the religious attribute selective successes to god, but not the negatives.
Delusion is a powerful thing.

Are you assigning the negatives of life on God, or just God's negatives? How do you make the difference? How can you be keeping God's scorecard? Ebola virus: a consequence of a world on autopilot or God's batting miss?

Thankyou for highlighting all points made in my original post.
It's always good to be right.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

First, I'd ask myself why a god would give me a sign. My guess would be to show some sort of indication that the god exists and/or is directly involved in the goings-on of the world.

Because he loves you and wants to have a father-child relationship with you, as the christians would put it?


With that in mind, why would the god use anything less than an unambiguously divine occurrence to send this message?

That's the interesting part of the whole deal: What is "unambiguous"? A bit further: What is unambiguous to you? (that's what I was thinking when I opened the thread)

[Mal Malenkirk]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident...

Of all the 'signs' of god, this is the one that riles me the most.

If a bus crashes, kills thirty people but you survive, is that a sign of God? If so, it means God let the thirty other people die and I really have no interest in what he has to say to me.

No, it's all coincidence.

Gods want to tell us something? Resurect someone on national TV.

Seriously. In the bible, people aren't asked to take Jesus word on faith alone. He demonstrate miracles to them. Thomas even doubt the veracity of Jesus divinity and instead of being insulted for his skepticism, he is praised for it and then shown incontrovertible proof. Or so the bible says.

2000 years later we are expected to accept him on the premise of a badly edited and poorly written book. Should we, like Thomas, demand some proof, we are asked to looked into car crash survivor stories to see a sign.

Spare me.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Are you assigning the negatives of life on God, or just God's negatives? How do you make the difference? How can you be keeping God's scorecard? Ebola virus: a consequence of a world on autopilot or God's batting miss?

Thankyou for highlighting all points made in my original post.
It's always good to be right.

Numero uno: Don't fight with me. I'm not a believer.

Numero dos: My reply to you ended in a question mark, it can't possibly be an answer. Actually every sentence in it is a question! We don't live in your head, you know: be explicit.

[Robin Z]

To put it in Bayesian terms: my current prior on God's existence is extraordinarily low (i.e. I consider the hypothesis to be very nearly completely unlikely), and my current evidence set strongly reinforces that assigned probability. A sign such as that would give a higher posterior probability, true, but even a literally-unbelievable demonstration wouldn't raise it enough to make me consider it likely. It'd be like going from odds of 1:10^387 to odds of 1:10^383 - a major quantitative increase, true, but not one which makes a qualitative difference.

I think you're intellectualizing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectualization) a bit (people don't work like calculators), but oh well.

Sorry about that - I've been reading the Overcoming Bias (http://www.overcomingbias.com/) blog a lot recently, and they like to talk in terms of probabilities. The essential point is that God doesn't become plausible just because God becomes more plausible.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Gods want to tell us something? Resurect someone on national TV.

TV? everyone knows TV is fake... Hey, maybe she should resurect everyone who has ever lived? That would be hard to overlook, yes? :rolleyes:

[Keith&Co.]

On an old WKRP episode, Johnny was sure that God spoke to him
But he missed part of the message when God mumbled.

His boss pointed out: Lissen, mister. If GOD sends you a message, you WILL hear it!

Figure if the fairy powers that sort my deck can know that putting the Hanged Man in a certain position of the spread to make me realize that my new boss has to be put to death, God will know how i will interpret a sign.
His Divine Message certainly may be ambiguous in general terms, or when i share it with you guys, but He would know in advance if I would interpret it as coincidence, or would suddenly recognize his divine hand...

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Personally, I don’t think that God is at all concerned about proving anything. I think She is happy about the way things are progressing just they way they are. If some accept her, then fine, if not, that’s fine too. It’s all good and as it should be. I know this because I asked her and she told me so. :)

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident...

Of all the 'signs' of god, this is the one that riles me the most.

If a bus crashes, kills thirty people but you survive, is that a sign of God? If so, it means God let the thirty other people die and I really have no interest in what he has to say to me.

No, it's all coincidence.


That's not the example in the OP. And before you start typing, Christ on a toast either.


Gods want to tell us something? Resurect someone on national TV.


There are Catholic miracles on video. Ricardo Montalbán hosts a program about miracles all over the world. Some are very interesting: like when the children open their mouths to receive the eucharist (from Archangel Michael?) the eucharist apparently (and clearly) appears on the tongues of each of the kids. I've been trying to get the name of the program over the web but I've been unable to. I don't accept the miracles just because I'm not a Catholic ( got out 16 or 17 years ago when I became an atheist) but still those are things I cannot explain.


2000 years later we are expected to accept him on the premise of a badly edited and poorly written book. Should we, like Thomas, demand some proof, we are asked to looked into car crash survivor stories to see a sign.


I agree. I mean I also would expect proof. I'm just musing about the possibility I got proof but to concerned about discounting events because they we automatically label them coincidences or "they could have faked it", like I usually do.

Just one detail: the OP doesn't mention stories about survivors, it mentions your survival (a highly improbable survival, not something trivial).

[Lógos Sokratikós]

On an old WKRP episode, Johnny was sure that God spoke to him
But he missed part of the message when God mumbled.

His boss pointed out: Lissen, mister. If GOD sends you a message, you WILL hear it!

Figure if the fairy powers that sort my deck can know that putting the Hanged Man in a certain position of the spread to make me realize that my new boss has to be put to death, God will know how i will interpret a sign.
His Divine Message certainly may be ambiguous in general terms, or when i share it with you guys, but He would know in advance if I would interpret it as coincidence, or would suddenly recognize his divine hand...

That is a possibility, yes.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Ok, I'll keep quiet and let the others have a word...

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 11 (8 members and 3 guests)

Please do!

[seanc]

That's the interesting part of the whole deal: What is "unambiguous"? A bit further: What is unambiguous to you? (that's what I was thinking when I opened the thread)

It's a good question. How much are we willing to attribute to coincidence, natural stuff we don't know about, or hell, even aliens?

Just to take the bait, an example of an unambiguous sign for me would be not just surviving a car accident, but for time to seemingly stop, a giant hand to appear and place my car out of harms way, then time to continue going on as usual.

Ok... pick it apart :p :grin:

[Ronin]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?

I can predict (as the grass-eating prophet in goat skin I am :Cheeky:) an avalanche of quick and cocky answers to this OP, but I think it's something to really think about, if one is still open minded about the whole thing. The christian God is definitely not a Santa Claus (definitely no free lunch in the bible...) so even if you do admit to the possiblity (however unlikely it may seem to me or you) of his existence, it isn't expectable he will/would be "on request" about it.

I'm not looking for an ambiguous "sign", Logos.

All I require is simple evidence, not even extraordinary evidence, to support the notion of any God(s)ess(es) existence.

I find it odd that we should be expected to abandon fine levels of human critical analysis regarding evidence for things that do exist for the claims of God(s)ess(es).

Let go of the steering wheel and make any God of your choice your "pilot" while you are driving at 75 mph on the interstate and see what sign you will receive.

I am certainly open to evidence should someone provide it.

:wave:

[Selsaral]

If God were an imaginary being and existed only in the minds of human beings, his 'signs' would be impossible to separate from random coincidences and mis-perceptions.

Fod a God to limit his communication method to this, it can only be deliberate. Therefore God apparently only wants gullible people and those indoctrinated in Christianity to find his 'signs' to be believable.

Besides, Christians don't ever appear to seriously wonder 'the fact that an airplane didn't land on my car this morning just might be a sign from the Cosmic Space Monkeys' because it's obviously ridiculous.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

If God were an imaginary being and existed only in the minds of human beings, his 'signs' would be impossible to separate from random coincidences and mis-perceptions.



Selsaral, that's the best answer to the OP yet. It's a blunt, succinct and elegant criterion. Thanks.

[WVIncagold]

What if it gave you a sign but it was in Aramaic? or Latin? For that matter how would you know it wasn't an alien wanting total world domination without having to go to war to get it? or a demon wanting same? "signs" was also a lousy movie and to make decisions on "signs" is just as lousy an idea.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Aramaic? Even better. Hard to make a forgery in Ancient Aramaic or Patristric Latin. All I need is a translator.

[-Jay-]

surviving a car crash is supposed to be a sign from GOD?
wtf.
by that token you could decide almost anything is a sign from god, I love the way the religious attribute selective successes to god, but not the negatives.
Delusion is a powerful thing.

I've seen the faithful attribute things as mundane as a bird twittering in a tree as they walk by to God. Negatives such as getting one's ass groped on the subway are, of course, the work of the Devil, even though from the gropER's perspective (and depending on the ass in question), that might be a sign from God.

An interesting side effect of such magical thinking is that it tends to absolve one of responsibility. Eh.

regards,

NinJay

[Selsaral]

If God were an imaginary being and existed only in the minds of human beings, his 'signs' would be impossible to separate from random coincidences and mis-perceptions.



Selsaral, that's the best answer to the OP yet. It's a blunt, succinct and elegant criterion. Thanks.

Thanks. I've finally gotten used to the fact that theists don't find this piece of information even remotely suspicious.

[orac]

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?
Fine. You win. All hail Anubis!

Wait, is that wrong?


Why does god have to be a clear communicator? Because I'll be buggered if I'll worship a deity who makes Forest Gump look smart, and if the best communication your deity can manage is indistinguishable from completely random events, he's not worth shit. Seriously, I have cats that are smarter and better communicators than the average deity.

Hmm. Maybe that's why the egyptians worshipped cats. Makes more sense than any of the bullshit I've heard from modern theists.

[trendkill]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign? You don't, but personally, a "sign" wouldn't be what I'd need to believe in God anyway.

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications? Well, if he wants results, shouldn't his actions be tailor-made to evoke those results? It's as if you had stated "I have something to say to an Italian person, it's very important to both of us that he understand my message--but I'll say it in English, because there's no reason I should have to speak to him in a way custom-designed to his specifications." :huh:

I can predict (as the grass-eating prophet in goat skin I am :Cheeky:) an avalanche of quick and cocky answers to this OP, but I think it's something to really think about, if one is still open minded about the whole thing. The christian God is definitely not a Santa Claus (definitely no free lunch in the bible...)Er, if anything you seem to have got it backwards. Santa Claus gives presents on the condition of good behavior; Jesus, arguably, sets no prerequisites for the "lunch" he gives out. Not sure what the point of this part of your post is, except possibly to project a sense that as opposed to Santa Claus, religion is all very serious and philosophical and thus we shouldn't question theistic assumptions too closely while evaluating theism.

[DancesWithCoffeeCups]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?

I can predict (as the grass-eating prophet in goat skin I am :Cheeky:) an avalanche of quick and cocky answers to this OP, but I think it's something to really think about, if one is still open minded about the whole thing. The christian God is definitely not a Santa Claus (definitely no free lunch in the bible...) so even if you do admit to the possiblity (however unlikely it may seem to me or you) of his existence, it isn't expectable he will/would be "on request" about it.


I assume you're referring to the christian god based on your second paragraph. Everything that has ever happened to me has a natural explanation. I have found no evidence for the existence of any god that has so far been described. I expect if a claim is going to be made for a supernatural creature's existence that there will be evidence presented that will somehow persuade me that this creature exists. I don't think that's asking for too much. Do you?

Other people are the ones who are making these god claims. What I expect from a god is NOTHING. I don't believe they exist.

In the event that evidence is presented that convinces me of the existence of any entity that I haven't yet observed to be real, I can assure you that I will acknowledge it's existence. It would be rather silly of me not to, don't you think?

At that point, once I've determined what it is that this creature wants from me personally, I'll then determine whether or not I'll submit to it's wishes.

It seems the most sensible approach to this entire issue, IMO.

[ELECTROGOD]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident...
Please god, don't send me any signs...I can't afford them...but it would be nice if you would feed me like you do with the birds in the field...oh wait...

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42915000/jpg/_42915965_spoonbillednialmoores20.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6649233.stm
http://www.ceh.ac.uk/news/press/pipefish.asp
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=31&set_id=1&art_id=vn20080411054204493C900701
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13559567/
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F01E6D61E31E233A2575BC1A9679C946396D6CF

I guess that a car accident would be par for the course that allows birds to starve.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident...
Please god, don't send me any signs...I can't afford them...but it would be nice if you would feed me like you do with the birds in the field...oh wait...

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42915000/jpg/_42915965_spoonbillednialmoores20.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6649233.stm
http://www.ceh.ac.uk/news/press/pipefish.asp
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=31&set_id=1&art_id=vn20080411054204493C900701
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13559567/
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F01E6D61E31E233A2575BC1A9679C946396D6CF

I guess that a car accident would be par for the course that allows birds to starve.
Wow! The Ace Trump: "Bad things happen therefore No God"
A little well worn, isn't it?

[WWJD4aKlondikeBar]

Suppose God decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?This God, as you speak of it, is indistinguishable from one that does not exist.

[Fish314]

I've always found the simplist answer to the OP's question as:

God would HAVE to give signs that were distinguishable by the person that was intended to receive the sign.

We should assume that if God were providing a sign, it is his intent that the recipient receive the sign as a message, or else, why give a sign at all? So God must have intended the sign to be recognized as such, or else it doesn't really COUNT as a sign.

Second, God, being omnipotent must know exactly which signs are the sort that I will recognize and which signs are the sort that I will not recognize, and he is able to give me either type.

So, if God gives me a sign that ISN'T hand-picked for me to be able to distinguish as a "sign from God", then he would had to have known that before giving the "sign". Therefore, it would had to have been his intention that I not recognize it.

So, if I God is going to be giving out "signs", they must be recognized by their recipients if they truly come from God, and it is truly God's intent that they be recognized. If God performs miracles or gives you a sign, and you DON'T recognize it, it must have been God's fault, not yours that you didn't.

So I KNOW FOR A FACT that God has not given me any signs, because I haven't perceived any Godly signs. Had he given me signs, I would have recognized them, not because of who I am, but because of who He is (allegedly).

[djrafikie]

surviving a car crash is supposed to be a sign from GOD?
wtf.
by that token you could decide almost anything is a sign from god, I love the way the religious attribute selective successes to god, but not the negatives.
Delusion is a powerful thing.

I've seen the faithful attribute things as mundane as a bird twittering in a tree as they walk by to God. Negatives such as getting one's ass groped on the subway are, of course, the work of the Devil, even though from the gropER's perspective (and depending on the ass in question), that might be a sign from God.

An interesting side effect of such magical thinking is that it tends to absolve one of responsibility. Eh.

regards,

NinJay

NinJay, did you not know, the devil is the prince of the earth.
The birds are EVIL for sure!
As for the ass in question, well, from my POV, that could be a little slice of heaven ;)

[GenesisNemesis]

As for the ass in question, well, from my POV, that could be a little slice of heaven ;)

What if God showed you Hell? ;)

[djrafikie]

As for the ass in question, well, from my POV, that could be a little slice of heaven ;)

What if God showed you Hell? ;)

Is it the flip side? Because it you turn it around, it all becomes dependant on what you find there..
do I get to grope before I look, or is it all based on faith?
I'm a strong believer in viewing the package before you sample the goods:devil1:

[Sapho]

Please god, don't send me any signs...I can't afford them...but it would be nice if you would feed me like you do with the birds in the field...oh wait...

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42915000/jpg/_42915965_spoonbillednialmoores20.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6649233.stm
http://www.ceh.ac.uk/news/press/pipefish.asp
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=31&set_id=1&art_id=vn20080411054204493C900701
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13559567/
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F01E6D61E31E233A2575BC1A9679C946396D6CF

I guess that a car accident would be par for the course that allows birds to starve.
Wow! The Ace Trump: "Bad things happen therefore No God"
A little well worn, isn't it?

Maybe the bad things are a sign from god that it hates you.After all why does god have to send nice signs, remember Job!

[Ronin]

Suppose God decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?This God, as you speak of it, is indistinguishable from one that does not exist.

Yep.

:wave:

[Unbeatable]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

You can't know, of course. But then, if a "sign" is indistinguishable from a coincidence, what justifies calling it a sign? It's more like a Rorschach. It doesn't communicate anything; its meaning is a projection from the mind of the viewer. So even if such a "sign" is sent and the recipient actually perceives it as such, they can only really be making a lucky guess, or engaging in wishful thinking, or experiencing a delusion.

I can predict (as the grass-eating prophet in goat skin I am :Cheeky:) an avalanche of quick and cocky answers to this OP, but I think it's something to really think about, if one is still open minded about the whole thing.

Isn't this sort of open-mindedness (seeing hidden messages in events objectively indistinguishable from random coincidence) symptomatic of schizophrenia?

so even if you do admit to the possiblity (however unlikely it may seem to me or you) of his existence, it isn't expectable he will/would be "on request" about it.

Of course. That's why Xians rely on faith.

[ziffel]

The very concept of a god giving obscure 'signs' to his creation seems ridiculous to me.

What is this god's purpose in giving the sign? If it's to prove his existence, or to "win me over", he doesn't need to play silly hide & seek games to do this.

If he wants to achieve a goal, does he not know a better way to do it, than to give a 'sign' that can misinterpreted?

[Keith&Co.]

Maybe manifestation takes it out of God?

I mean, one day to make the entire universe, and by the end of the week he's making Woman from Adam's rib. A little later, he's reduced to flooding the whole world to rebuff 'wickedness.' (Reminds me of the IT guy that could only restore default settings by reinstalling Windows...). Then he can only protect one tribe in one nation of the world, and that requires brainwashing a pharoah.

Now he's like those lost souls in Christmas Carol. No matter how much he wails and tries to exert influence, he's as likely to be interpreted as an underdone potato.

"Psssssssssssssst! Oi! Hey, I'm real! Hey! HEY! Put down that book and look up here! Aw, burn in Hell, you deaf idiot."

[Riley Stone]

The very concept of a god giving obscure 'signs' to his creation seems ridiculous to me.

What is this god's purpose in giving the sign? If it's to prove his existence, or to "win me over", he doesn't need to play silly hide & seek games to do this.

If he wants to achieve a goal, does he not know a better way to do it, than to give a 'sign' that can misinterpreted?

I agree. Having God "give me a sign" that he exists seems about as reasonable as me wanting to give my children a sign that I exist. Now, if I had been kidnapped and was being held hostage somewhere, perhaps I would try to send some sort of sign or message that I was still alive. Hopefully, though if God exists, he hasn't been kidnapped and he isn't being held hostage, in which case he wouldn't need to be sending any signs.

If God can only communicate through "signs," however, I do like the idea GenesisNemesis had of actually showing us hell. Or maybe showing us heaven.

How about this: Jesus floats down from heaven holding onto nothing but three helium balloons, each in a different color. The float to Earth takes 24 hours so it can be captured on national television. Once Jesus gracefully lands on Earth, (in the middle of the White House Rose Garden) he reads, in a booming voice, the names of 20 people who have been chosen to accompany him on a balloon ride to heaven and to hell. In Jesus's intitial announcement, he informs everyone that attendance on the fieldtrip is not optional. Whether they like it or not, the people listed will appear in front of Jesus to begin the fieldtrip at the appointed day and time.

The fieldtrip participants will then be taken on a one day tour of heaven and of hell. They will be allowed to take photos and videos. The tour will be customized so that each person on the fieldtrip is allowed to see and talk with deceased loved ones who are currently residing in heaven or hell. When the fieldtrip participants return to Earth, a video of their entire journey is played back over and over again on television. No matter what channel you turn to on your television, all you'd able to see is the latest video of the hell/heaven field trip.

Better yet, how about providing each person on Earth with a private telephone which can be used to call God and/or to call deceased relatives in heaven or hell. Anyone could, at any time, ask God a question, such as, "Who will win the World Series, who will be the next President, what day will I die?" and God (or if God is too busy, God's people) could provide the correct answers to anyone who called. After making the call, callers would only have to wait a little while to see if God was correct.

Another funky idea might be for God to provide moving pictures in the Bible. Any time you opened the Bible, for example, you could see a moving picture of exactly what was happening in heaven or in hell. And there could be a section of the Bible that you could look at that would contain moving pictures of what your life was going to be like a week from now, a month from now, a year from now, or several years from now. There could be a section that would contain "historical" pictures as well. This would allow people to see actual moving pictures of God's soldiers busting into homes and killing terrified women and their children, of God flooding the world, and of God's followers stoning to death people who didn't keep the Sabbath.

These are just a few ideas for what God could do to prove that he existed. But even more to the point, I'm sure that God, if he existed and if he wanted everyone to know without a doubt that he existed, could come up with ways of making his existence known in a way that everyone would accept.

Christians frequently say things like: "During the end times, we'll ALL know that Jesus is Lord. I can't think how many times I've had Christians say something to me like: "One day you'll know, but then it will be too late. The Bible says that one day every knee will bow and every voice confess that Jesus is Lord."

If Christians believe that we'll all KNOW one day that God exists, why can't we know right now?

[Smullyan-esque]

Suppose God decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?

I can predict (as the grass-eating prophet in goat skin I am :Cheeky:) an avalanche of quick and cocky answers to this OP, but I think it's something to really think about, if one is still open minded about the whole thing. The christian God is definitely not a Santa Claus (definitely no free lunch in the bible...) so even if you do admit to the possiblity (however unlikely it may seem to me or you) of his existence, it isn't expectable he will/would be "on request" about it.All I would really expect from a "sign from God" is that it should look like any other attempt at communication from any other person. When my wife wants to let me know that she is home, she says "Honey, I'm home!" in a clear, unambiguous voice. If she wants me to go to the store to pick up groceries, she leaves me a list, written in English, in a place that I can find it.

I would expect at least equally unambiguous communication from God, if He existed. In fact, I bet an all-powerful God would be even clearer and less able to be misunderstood than my wife.

But, instead, we get things that look exactly like coincidences. No one I know communicates by dropping bird poop in funny shapes that MIGHT look like a picture of a toaster, or by leaving an extra coin in the car's ashtray for use in a meter. That's just not how people communicate with each other.

So, if God wants to communicate with people, chosing that particular method just isn't smart or effective. And an all-powerful, omniscient God should be both smart and effective.

[Doug Shaver]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?
How do I know it is a sign? Because a believer tells me it is a sign?

Your God seems to have an obsession with guessing games. If he wants to makes his existence unambiguously obvious to us skeptics, he knows how to do it. If he really does exist, of course.

[Trout]

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?.

Believe that surviving a car wreck was due to chance and circumstance or find jesus in your corn flakes.

The choice is yours

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Selsaral, that's the best answer to the OP yet. It's a blunt, succinct and elegant criterion. Thanks.

Thanks. I've finally gotten used to the fact that theists don't find this piece of information even remotely suspicious.

Worry not, some do, but they're very hard to find. Surprisingly, some of them are as logical and suspicious as you and I but it's incredibly hard to get an interview with them, pity.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?
Fine. You win. All hail Anubis!

Wait, is that wrong?


Why does god have to be a clear communicator? Because I'll be buggered if I'll worship a deity who makes Forest Gump look smart, and if the best communication your deity can manage is indistinguishable from completely random events, he's not worth shit. Seriously, I have cats that are smarter and better communicators than the average deity.

Hmm. Maybe that's why the egyptians worshipped cats. Makes more sense than any of the bullshit I've heard from modern theists.

No one could seriously blame me if I don't consider your example of cynicism a serious contribution to the subject.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign? You don't, but personally, a "sign" wouldn't be what I'd need to believe in God anyway.

Well, if he wants results, shouldn't his actions be tailor-made to evoke those results? It's as if you had stated "I have something to say to an Italian person, it's very important to both of us that he understand my message--but I'll say it in English, because there's no reason I should have to speak to him in a way custom-designed to his specifications." :huh:

I can predict (as the grass-eating prophet in goat skin I am :Cheeky:) an avalanche of quick and cocky answers to this OP, but I think it's something to really think about, if one is still open minded about the whole thing. The christian God is definitely not a Santa Claus (definitely no free lunch in the bible...)Er, if anything you seem to have got it backwards. Santa Claus gives presents on the condition of good behavior; Jesus, arguably, sets no prerequisites for the "lunch" he gives out. Not sure what the point of this part of your post is, except possibly to project a sense that as opposed to Santa Claus, religion is all very serious and philosophical and thus we shouldn't question theistic assumptions too closely while evaluating theism.

Christians say God tests people's faith, not grants it by default like your nose.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

What I expect from a god is NOTHING. I don't believe they exist.


That is implicitly the subject of the thread. Basically that's the epistemic and existential issue. In a way each of us (1) is standing on an epistemic island and we get messages in a bottle once in a while, one of them saying, "Leap of faith requested: swim and you shall, I am at the next beach waiting for you. -Yours truly truly I say to you, God"; and in a nother way (2) we're not on an epistemic island, we're surrounded by sights and sounds of knowledge developed threough the ages, an astoundingly varied menu needing only for us to chose, and everybody has, and everyone clings on his/her choice even though we can change our selection any time.

Aaah... Whatever, I'm just musing for fun. I like to think my possibilities are radically open, that every new day is a new episode on Star Trek. Is that a new planet, a new snare of the Ferengi, or is it that dastardly Q guy? LOL

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident...
Please god, don't send me any signs...I can't afford them...but it would be nice if you would feed me like you do with the birds in the field...oh wait...

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42915000/jpg/_42915965_spoonbillednialmoores20.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6649233.stm
http://www.ceh.ac.uk/news/press/pipefish.asp
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=31&set_id=1&art_id=vn20080411054204493C900701
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13559567/
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F01E6D61E31E233A2575BC1A9679C946396D6CF

I guess that a car accident would be par for the course that allows birds to starve.


My reply to someone else seems to me appropriate here:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=5344372#post5344372

Copy-pasting below:
surviving a car crash is supposed to be a sign from GOD?
wtf.
by that token you could decide almost anything is a sign from god, I love the way the religious attribute selective successes to god, but not the negatives.
Delusion is a powerful thing.

Are you assigning the negatives of life on God, or just God's negatives? How do you make the difference? How can you be keeping God's scorecard? Ebola virus: a consequence of a world on autopilot or God's batting miss?

The world is on autopilot, be there a God or not. It doesn't hurt the God idea, even though they do affect us emotionally. Where was God at Auschwitz? Some would say he was waiting for folks like Maximilian Kolbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe) and Martin Niemöller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller) to make a stand, but the only ones who did were Maximilian, Martin and a few others.

[Headache]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?

I can predict (as the grass-eating prophet in goat skin I am :Cheeky:) an avalanche of quick and cocky answers to this OP, but I think it's something to really think about, if one is still open minded about the whole thing. The christian God is definitely not a Santa Claus (definitely no free lunch in the bible...) so even if you do admit to the possiblity (however unlikely it may seem to me or you) of his existence, it isn't expectable he will/would be "on request" about it.
If a god is too stupid to give me a sign that can only be understood as a message for a god, then it's not my fault.

If this god gives me a message that can be interpreted or understood in many ways, he is willingly trying to confuse me. Why should I care about such a god?

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?

I can predict (as the grass-eating prophet in goat skin I am :Cheeky:) an avalanche of quick and cocky answers to this OP, but I think it's something to really think about, if one is still open minded about the whole thing. The christian God is definitely not a Santa Claus (definitely no free lunch in the bible...) so even if you do admit to the possiblity (however unlikely it may seem to me or you) of his existence, it isn't expectable he will/would be "on request" about it.
If a god is too stupid to give me a sign that can only be understood as a message for a god, then it's not my fault.

If this god gives me a message that can be interpreted or understood in many ways, he is willingly trying to confuse me. Why should I care about such a god?


Really naughty, isn't it? ;)

[dr lazer blast]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?

I can predict (as the grass-eating prophet in goat skin I am :Cheeky:) an avalanche of quick and cocky answers to this OP, but I think it's something to really think about, if one is still open minded about the whole thing. The christian God is definitely not a Santa Claus (definitely no free lunch in the bible...) so even if you do admit to the possiblity (however unlikely it may seem to me or you) of his existence, it isn't expectable he will/would be "on request" about it.

Good question, I assume that since people deny God anyway, i'm sure they would be denying His signs as well, i.e. if you don't know God, then how can you know that the signs from God come from God since you don't know who he is or believe He exists?

People that believe in God know what signs are from God and what isn't a sign from God, because they know him, know his traits, the tug at the heart, etc. etc. (whatever you want to call it, I have a feeling that this paragraph will be commented on the most)

[Lógos Sokratikós]

It is a possibility. Folks are known to have cogntive biases depending what they already believe, ever confirming what they already believe. Works in every direction, to and fro christianity (and any other worldview).

[Hyndis]

Whatever happened to all the miracles in the Bible? Assuming that such events actually happened, why have they stopped happening? Back then people didn't need faith, not with booming voices from the sky, being able to produce food for thousands of people from nothing, instantly healing the blind and crippled, parting the waters of an ocean, sustaining thousands of people in a desert for 40 years, so on and so forth.

Faith wasn't needed back then (again, assuming the Bible is true) because ample evidence was provided to just about everyone.

Did god just decide to take a nap? Maybe he's senile in his old age? Why has all of the modern day "evidence" been of such a pathetically ambiguous nature as to warrant laughs instead of getting the attention of the people who most need it?

I'm seriously not that hard to convince. My cat is more powerful than god is. My cat can at least convince me that he exists, as well as convince everyone else. My atheism is not etched in stone either. If new evidence comes to light, then I'll reevaluate my position. But right now, there's as much evidence for the Abrahamic god as there is for Zeus or Thor.

[nanaimo]

Personally, I don’t think that God is at all concerned about proving anything. I think She is happy about the way things are progressing just they way they are. If some accept her, then fine, if not, that’s fine too. It’s all good and as it should be. I know this because I asked her and she told me so. :)

I'm seriously curious: how did she tell you? An audible voice in your head? Or some other way?

[Fish314]

Suppose Go decided to give you a sign, like surviving a car accident, or a good Samaritan at the right place right time, etc, but you disregarded it by telling yourself it was just an coincidence? How do you know God didn't really give you a sign?

I've been thinking about that a lot. Why does God have to give you or me a sign custom designed on your/my specifications?

I can predict (as the grass-eating prophet in goat skin I am :Cheeky:) an avalanche of quick and cocky answers to this OP, but I think it's something to really think about, if one is still open minded about the whole thing. The christian God is definitely not a Santa Claus (definitely no free lunch in the bible...) so even if you do admit to the possiblity (however unlikely it may seem to me or you) of his existence, it isn't expectable he will/would be "on request" about it.

Good question, I assume that since people deny God anyway, i'm sure they would be denying His signs as well, i.e. if you don't know God, then how can you know that the signs from God come from God since you don't know who he is or believe He exists?

People that believe in God know what signs are from God and what isn't a sign from God, because they know him, know his traits, the tug at the heart, etc. etc. (whatever you want to call it, I have a feeling that this paragraph will be commented on the most)

I don't see how anyone could possibly deny a true "SIGN FROM GOD", if God is indeed OMNIPOTENT and OMNISCIENT. Via his omniscience, wouldn't he be able to know before hand exactly what sort of a sign would convice each of us that he exists? If he does in fact "send us a sign" then wouldn't he pick a sign that he knew before hand would convince us?

It seems to me, based on this, that someone who claims to have never received a sign from God, says this ONLY because they have never received a sign from God. No one would be able to deny a true "sign from God". While it may be possible to miss a sign from your Grandmother, or the tax department or your dog, isn't it impossible to miss a sign from God, because of the fact that he is omniscient and omnipotent? If he intends to convince you, he WILL convince you. It wouldn't violate free will, either. It would still be your decision, but it would be based on "perfect arguement" on the part of God.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Personally, I don’t think that God is at all concerned about proving anything. I think She is happy about the way things are progressing just they way they are. If some accept her, then fine, if not, that’s fine too. It’s all good and as it should be. I know this because I asked her and she told me so. :)

I'm seriously curious: how did she tell you? An audible voice in your head? Or some other way?I have regular conversations with her; she is quite the talker. :)

[ELECTROGOD]

Wow! The Ace Trump: "Bad things happen therefore No God"
A little well worn, isn't it?
Well...IF you are familiar with the Christian Bible/god-claim then you ought to recognize that little reference...and I don't think that "worn" would be the word to try to tag my post with...maybe this would have been a better way to put it:

"Wow! god doesn't actually feed the birds in the field as it's stated that he does in the Bible.
Yet another thing that shows such a god claim to be total bullshit.
I guess that something which a god-believer assumes must be a sign, though it is exactly the way it would be if their god didn't actually exist, might not actually be a sign after all since that would go along with so many other things which they claim their god does but in reality doesn't actually do."

[Jedi Mind Trick]

"Wow! god doesn't actually feed the birds in the field as it's stated that he does in the Bible."The birds where I live seem to be doing quite well. Are you a "the glass is half empty" sort of skeptic?

[ELECTROGOD]

My reply to someone else seems to me appropriate here:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=5344372#post5344372

"Are you assigning the negatives of life on God, or just God's negatives? How do you make the difference? How can you be keeping God's scorecard?
Well...IF you are familiar with the Christian Bible/god-claim...(no assumption needed)

However...assumption IS needed if you want to believe that an omnipotent god would need to give you a "sign" by allowing/putting you in a car accident with all of it's possible consequences beyond the instance of only survival (death, dismemberment, lifelong health problems, death or injury to other people in or outside of your car, property damage to you or others, etc.)
Again, would need to be exactly as if no god existed at all anyway.

[ELECTROGOD]

"Wow! god doesn't actually feed the birds in the field as it's stated that he does in the Bible."The birds where I live seem to be doing quite well. Are you a "the glass is half empty" sort of skeptic?
So...if you see birds doing ok then ALL birds must be ok?
(I'd examine your own logic first)

[Jedi Mind Trick]

The birds where I live seem to be doing quite well. Are you a "the glass is half empty" sort of skeptic?
So...if you see birds doing ok then ALL birds must be ok?
(I'd examine your own logic first)
Yep, half empty...

[ELECTROGOD]

So...if you see birds doing ok then ALL birds must be ok?
(I'd examine your own logic first)
Yep, half empty...
But you're not indicating that you have the faintest clue (despite my explaining above) about the claim that god feeds the birds in the "field". :huh:
...you know, the same god who sends signs by allowing or even putting people into traffic accidents.
If you are going to try and paint me as pessimistic maybe you ought to first look at the god-claim that allows birds to die and allows or puts people into car accidents......and creates and allows "evil" to flourish in his own supposed creation. Eh? 'Cause I can't even begin to compare to that with my simple observations in relation to claims. :wave:

[Jedi Mind Trick]

And he says that not one sparrow falls without the father taking notice. Death is not a bad thing; it is all as it should be.

[Fish314]

And he says that not one sparrow falls without the father taking notice. Death is not a bad thing; it is all as it should be.

Doesn't it raise another facet to the "signs from God" idea? Specifically, if a theist can claim the sun rising each morning or surviving a car accident and everything in between as "signs from God" can't the atheist similarly claim everything from birds dying to the sun rising each morning as "signs" that God doesn't exist?

[ELECTROGOD]

And he says that not one sparrow falls without the father taking notice. Death is not a bad thing; it is all as it should be.
And thus you illustrate a contradiction: god feeds the birds...but also notices when they starve.
Yes, most of us realize that death is not always a bad thing and is part of life, but if you go back to the Garden of Eden tale, death came about because of disobedience (sin) to god...so death to Christians would actually be a bad thing (always) by default just like sin is.
Yes, I realize they associate the chance to go to heaven via death (or whatever they imagine the end of Earthly life to be)...but it's just another part of their convoluted god claim.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

I'm seriously curious: how did she tell you? An audible voice in your head? Or some other way?I have regular conversations with her; she is quite the talker. :)

:)

I know what you mean perfectly, for I have read between the lines.