Why did God have to kill Jesus to save us?

[Manwe]

God can do whatever he wants right? Why could he have not just appeared himself, and told people to ask for forgiveness? He could if he desired forgive people without blood shed. Why then did he send Jesus to die? This suggests to me, that he is a blood thirsty god. Why do you think Jesus had to be tortured?

[Gamer4Fire]

Why would a god sacrifice himself to himself to change a rule he made himself. Yeah, makes a lot of sense.

[EmpiricalGod]

Well the christian reasoning, if you can it that, goes something like this. Got required a sinless person to die to forgive the sins. none of us are sinless hence jesus was the only one, and we couldn't ask for forgiveless if we are not sinless.

OF course that doesn't answer your type of question, it just pushes it to the side.

the questions remains, why does someone even if sinless have to die to forgive sin?

It doesn't make sense. If i can forgive my neighbor why can't god just forgive us?

It's like he is bound up to some arbitary rule that sin requires someone to die....

[Manwe]

Well the christian reasoning, if you can it that, goes something like this. Got required a sinless person to die to forgive the sins. none of us are sinless hence jesus was the only one, and we couldn't ask for forgiveless if we are not sinless.

OF course that doesn't answer your type of question, it just pushes it to the side.

the questions remains, why does someone even if sinless have to die to forgive sin?

It doesn't make sense. If i can forgive my neighbor why can't god just forgive us?

It's like he is bound up to some arbitary rule that sin requires someone to die....

Exactly. As soon as you claim that he had to follow that rule you deny his omnipotence, and also stipulate there is something greater than him to which he must adhere to ( a rule which he can not alter).

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, the whole Jesus story makes zero sense whatsoever.

God is supposed to be both omnipotent and omniscient. If He's omnipotent, then there cannot be any requirement that He must follow certain laws or rules before He does something. If that's not why Jesus was here and he came down to allow God to get some kind of firsthand knowledge about humanity that He didn't have before to see if we were worthy or something, then He's not omniscient.

I just don't think that the people who wrote the Bible put as much thought into the plotline as they should have. They really could have benefitted from a better editor.

[Porky Pine]

I asked the same question a few weeks ago and didn't get any good replies. It mainly got sidetracked to something totally unrelated.

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=242200

[john_v_h]

Start with the page (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13309a.htm) on "sacrifice" in the Catholic Encyclopedia. There you will find the theology behind the "Christian sacrifice." You will also need to read the entry on "sin."

[Apostate1970]

why do people ask stupid questions instead of just killing us?

[firebug]

This suggests to me, that he is a blood thirsty god. Why do you think Jesus had to be tortured?

The god of old testament sure is a maniac. Of course, he is not real, and that is why I can sleep at night :)

BTW, there wasn't anything unusual in the way Romans treated Jesus. 6,600 of Spartacus's followers were crucified along the via Appia after Roman soldiers suppressed the revolt.

[Metaphor]

Of course it doesn't make sense, and I knew this even when I was a child, but questioning it is blasphemy.

[Gamer4Fire]

Come to think of it, I think it means that god isn't all powerful. I don't mean that he isn't powerful, but that he has limits. He can make a rock so big that he couldn't lift it type limits.

[ELECTROGOD]

Why would a god sacrifice himself to himself to change a rule he made himself. Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
Got required a sinless person to die to forgive the sins. none of us are sinless hence jesus was the only one...
the questions remains, why does someone even if sinless have to die to forgive sin?
If i can forgive my neighbor why can't god just forgive us?
It's like he is bound up to some arbitary rule that sin requires someone to die....
Actually, if one takes the Christian god-claim at face value, "god" needs "sin" as part of his method of operation (and created it so).
This means that if there was actually a sinless person then that person would muck up his whole racket/game. So, that person would have to die to keep the whole created game-for-god's-amusement going.
However, one would think that an all-knowing god would already see ahead to this...especially if it's himself who is wrecking his own game.
Again...complete nonsense is all that god-claims add up to.

[J.F. Gaul]

God can do whatever he wants right?

There is no god.

Why could he have not just appeared himself, and told people to ask for forgiveness?

Because otherwise we wouldn't have the misanthropic Christian narrative.

He could if he desired forgive people without blood shed. Why then did he send Jesus to die?

Because Yahweh is a dick.

This suggests to me, that he is a blood thirsty god.

No, he's a dick.

Why do you think Jesus had to be tortured?

He didn't, because he wasn't.

[Manwe]

God can do whatever he wants right?

There is no god.



Because otherwise we wouldn't have the misanthropic Christian narrative.



Because Yahweh is a dick.



No, he's a dick.

Why do you think Jesus had to be tortured?

He didn't, because he wasn't.

Listen I am also an atheist. You are missing the point of this thread. It is trying to point out to believers that their beliefs are illogical, and rather silly.
These questions are meant for them to answer.

Understand?

[Porky Pine]

why do people ask stupid questions instead of just killing us?

Huh, wha?

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Why do you think Jesus had to be tortured?
He didn't have to be sacrificed and he was no sacrifice. He was a failed martyr because he did not die from crucifixion; he lived to be 120 years old and died in Kashmere.

[Tom Sawyer]

Why do you think Jesus had to be tortured?
He didn't have to be sacrificed and he was no sacrifice. He was a failed martyr because he did not die from crucifixion; he lived to be 120 years old and died in Kashmere.

They should have stabbed him then. Crucifixion apparently just got him out in the open air.

Also, if he was 120, I would hope he died in cashmere. Old people get the chills easily and we should always make sure they're wearing decent sweaters. It's just good manners.

[Howard]

I've always suspected that it was a hoax concocted by the people in the wine and wafer industries.

[joedad]

God can do whatever he wants right? Why could he have not just appeared himself, and told people to ask for forgiveness? He could if he desired forgive people without blood shed. Why then did he send Jesus to die? This suggests to me, that he is a blood thirsty god. Why do you think Jesus had to be tortured?There’s never any consistency in a Wizard’s behavior. One minute the Wizard is using it’s superpowers to defeat a foe or make right prevail. The next minute it seems to have forgotten its superpower abilities. Such is the nature of fantasy. The actors can be whatever we want them to be.

[apatura_iris]

The theological answer: to fulfill prophecy. The rational answer: there isn't one.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

He didn't have to be sacrificed and he was no sacrifice. He was a failed martyr because he did not die from crucifixion; he lived to be 120 years old and died in Kashmere.

They should have stabbed him then. Crucifixion apparently just got him out in the open air.

Also, if he was 120, I would hope he died in cashmere. Old people get the chills easily and we should always make sure they're wearing decent sweaters. It's just good manners.
Okay, Ive seen it spelled both ways smart ass. ;)

The correct spelling is Kashmir, though. MY BAD! Sheesh! :D

[premjan]

Cashmere is from Kashmir anyway (the Kashmir goat / pashmina at least).
http://kathmanduaffairs.com/images/pashmina_sheep-close.jpg

[Tom Sawyer]

They named their country after a goat? That's got to be a bit of a blow to the ego.

[premjan]

The Nilamata Purana describes the Valley's origin from the waters, Ka means "water" and Shimir means "to desiccate". Hence, Kashmir stands for "a land desiccated from water". There is also a theory which takes Kashmir to be a contraction of Kashyap-mira or Kashyapmir or Kashyapmeru, the "sea or mountain of Kashyapa", the sage who is credited with having drained the waters of the primordial lake Satisar, that Kashmir was before it was reclaimed. The Nilamata Purana gives the name Kashmira to the Valley considering it to be an embodiment of Uma and it is the Kashmir that the world knows today. The Kashmiris, however, call it Kashir, which has been derived phonetically from Kashmir, as pointed out by Aurel Stein in his introduction to the Rajatarangini.

In the Rajatarangini, a history of Kashmir written by Kalhana in the 12th century, it is stated that the valley of Kashmir was formerly a lake. This was drained by the great rishi or sage, Kashyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma, by cutting the gap in the hills at Baramulla (Varaha-mula). When Kashmir had been drained, Kashyapa asked Brahmans to settle there. This is still the local tradition, and in the existing physical condition of the country, we may see some ground for the story which has taken this form. The name of Kashyapa is by history and tradition connected with the draining of the lake, and the chief town or collection of dwellings in the valley was called Kashyapa-pura name which has been plausibly identified with the Kao-1r6.nupos of Hecataeus (apud Stephen of Byzantium) and Kaspatyros of Herodotus (3.102, 4.44). Kashmir is the country meant also by Ptolemy's Kao-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir#Etymology

[Tom Sawyer]

Ah, I see. I guess it's just a coincidence that there's a species of goat with the same name that lives in the area.

My bad.

[premjan]

No, the goat is named after the country. The country is named based on the etymology posted.

[Draconis]

If Jesus is God, therefore he's immortal, so how does being stuck on a cross kill him?
I'd imagine it would take quite a bit more than that.

[Sapho]

Hi didnt really have to kill jesus. Its just that hes pissed at him, so he makes poor old jesus slum it around the cosmos getting nailed to tree anolouges to save the souls of inumerable intelligent beings in galaxys near and far.

he thinks its funny.

[EmpiricalGod]

Why do you think Jesus had to be tortured?
He didn't have to be sacrificed and he was no sacrifice. He was a failed martyr because he did not die from crucifixion; he lived to be 120 years old and died in Kashmere.

Dude, we are discussing from a christian point of view, that they see his death as a requirement.

Alot of us don't believe in jesus, it doesnt stop us speculating the mind set of people who do and how they find it logical.

[Dirge]

God can do whatever he wants right? Why could he have not just appeared himself, and told people to ask for forgiveness? He could if he desired forgive people without blood shed. Why then did he send Jesus to die? This suggests to me, that he is a blood thirsty god. Why do you think Jesus had to be tortured?

From the Biblical standpoint, when man ate the fruit from The Tree Of Knowledge (intelligence), he was no longer just a mere part of nature, but could now conquer nature, and was like a lesser god himself, and thus had free will, and could do as he pleased, not just governed by mere instinct, or even his Father. Humanity could choose good or evil, and would do likely both, and thus needed his sins forgiven. Jesus symbolically showed that the good within was greater than the bad, if we admit to our failure as lesser gods.

[Porky Pine]

God can do whatever he wants right? Why could he have not just appeared himself, and told people to ask for forgiveness? He could if he desired forgive people without blood shed. Why then did he send Jesus to die? This suggests to me, that he is a blood thirsty god. Why do you think Jesus had to be tortured?

From the Biblical standpoint, when man ate the fruit from The Tree Of Knowledge (intelligence), he was no longer just a mere part of nature, but could now conquer nature, and was like a lesser god himself, and thus had free will, and could do as he pleased, not just governed by mere instinct, or even his Father. Humanity could choose good or evil, and would do likely both, and thus needed his sins forgiven. Jesus symbolically showed that the good within was greater than the bad, if we admit to our failure as lesser gods.

This was a lot of words that in no way answered the question.

[Manwe]

God can do whatever he wants right? Why could he have not just appeared himself, and told people to ask for forgiveness? He could if he desired forgive people without blood shed. Why then did he send Jesus to die? This suggests to me, that he is a blood thirsty god. Why do you think Jesus had to be tortured?

From the Biblical standpoint, when man ate the fruit from The Tree Of Knowledge (intelligence), he was no longer just a mere part of nature, but could now conquer nature, and was like a lesser god himself, and thus had free will, and could do as he pleased, not just governed by mere instinct, or even his Father. Humanity could choose good or evil, and would do likely both, and thus needed his sins forgiven. Jesus symbolically showed that the good within was greater than the bad, if we admit to our failure as lesser gods.

Why would god need symbols to forgive us for making rules he himself made?

[fatpie42]

The answer to this from a Christian perspective? "No one knows. It's a mystery."

Here are some theories of the atonement:
The Ransom Theory (God deceitfully pays off Satan with a bribe) Introduced by Origen in the third century CE.

The Satisfaction Theory (Jesus appeases God by being a ritual human sacrifice) Introduced by Anselem, in the late 11th century CE.

The Moral Theory: (Jesus' death is an example for the rest of humanity to emulate) Introduced by Abelard in the 12th century CE.

The Acceptance Theory (Atonement comes from the arbitrary choice of God) Introduced by Scotus circa 1300 CE.

The Penal (a.k.a. Penal-Substitution) Theory (God's mercy replaces his wrath after the infinite sacrifice of Jesus) Introduced by Reformation theologians circa 1520 CE.

Christus Victor Theory: Jesus voluntarily allowed himself to be executed. This defeated the power of evil and released humanity from its sin: Being written

Narrative Christus Victor Theory: Being written

Non-violent atonement theories - Recent theories primarily by African-American and feminist theologians: Being written
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_atone5.htm

The one in bold is probably the one people hear most often since it is not only followed by many protestant churches but it is also the one favoured by those evangelical types who shout the loudest.

Angela2 has claimed in the past on this forum that there is no doctrine of the atonement, only theories of atonement (such as the ones above). If true, that basically means that the Christian denominations give free reign to their various believers to 'make sh*t up' in regards to this particular issue. Odd that they should decide not to be dogmatic about possibly one of the most important (and confusing) elements of the faith.

[Deleet]

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Easy enough.

[Apostate1970]

why do people ask stupid questions instead of just killing us?

Huh, wha?

i would rather just be killed than subjected to endless questions of immense stupidity.