List of pagan influences on christianity

[vid]

Don't you happen to know some more exhaustive list of pagan deities / rituals / ideas that got fused into christianity? I mean things like Jesus birthday on Sol Invictus feast, pagan deities converted to christian saints, christmas tree, etc.

I am more interested in catholic church, not eastern christianity (but list for eastern christianity would be interesting too, of course).

If you can remember just few cases, that is welcomed too, maybe we'll compile such list here.

Thank you.

[Malachi151]

Well, these things require more time than I'm willing to put in in order to actually document these things.

Some solid influences are:

> Christian imagery: All Christian artwork basically originated from the Roman pagan traditions. I have some good examples at the bottom of this article: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

> Many of the Saints: Some of the saints are direct conversions of pagan gods into saints. In other cases, however, the saints may have been real people, but they still had pagan legends associated with them after their death, Saint Nicholas and Saint Valentine are good examples of this.

> The date of both Christmas and Easter are related to pagan festivals. Easter of course is originally related to Passover, but the Romans changed it from the Passover date to a different date in order to stop its association with Judaism.

> Christian theology as a whole: Actually, its not so much related to "pagan" religion as it is to Greek philosophy. The core of Christian theology is based on Neo-Platonic philosophy. This includes the belief that God is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving. This was a Neo-Platonic or Stoic claim that the Christians integrated into their theology.

> Heaven and Hell: It's pretty clear that the Christian concepts of afterlife are pagan/ Neo-Platonic. The idea that "Hell" (written as Hades in the New Testament works) was a fiery place under ground is certainly pagan/Neo-Platonic. The idea that heaven was a place up in the clouds above the earth where angels wear white gowns and play harps and fly around with wings is certainly pagan/Neo-Platonic.

I'm not actually sure about Christmas trees. I haven't seen any compelling evidence that there is a direct link there between the pagan tradition and the later Christian tradition, but its certainly not out of the question.

[vid]

Your collection of images is very helpful, thanks. I'd prefer if there was some verifiable source for who is on image (people can challenge date / description of image, and there is nothing to back it up), but still.

Is it okay to reuse those pictures in my article?

[Malachi151]

Is it okay to reuse those pictures in my article?

Sure

[vid]

Thanks

[Clivedurdle]

The term pagan - country bumpkin - is of course xian propaganda to separate xianity from the obvious soil it grew in, in complete contradiction to the commandment about honouring your father and mother!

[dystopian]

i'm fairly certain that some, if not many/most biblical concepts of the OT, and thus judaist concepts/etc were adapted in some form other cultures, who themselves had taken it from Sumerian concepts. Particularly Sumerian epics regarding Enki. The flood story and the tower of babel stories are very similar to stories about Enki (one of the more popular Sumerian gods). Ofcourse, some christians would actually point at this and proves that the stories must be true.

A lot of the 'demons' depicted also seem to have at some point been actual gods; but were demoted to the position of demon (or angel in some cases?) by the hebrews.

[Clivedurdle]

Lucian has heard of Christianity, but seems to have regarded it as an ordinary Oriental cult.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/tsg/tsg05.htm

[djrafikie]

Nearly all the decent bits of xtianity are from paganism, including, but not exhaustively, most of the holidays, some holidays that really don't seem xtian on not very close scruitny (harvest festival), symbolism related to blood (life) and foodstuffs (becoming/or literally being the body), statments that there are "gods" (in genesis) which actually definatively makes the bible pantheistic (very pagan).

It was pretty much utterly manipulated in order to make it more palatable to the locals in most areas (who held a wide variety of earth based faiths which we would say were "paganism".

[vid]

Nearly all the decent bits of xtianity are from paganism, including, but not exhaustively, most of the holidays, some holidays that really don't seem xtian on not very close scruitny (harvest festival), symbolism related to blood (life) and foodstuffs (becoming/or literally being the body), statments that there are "gods" (in genesis) which actually definatively makes the bible pantheistic (very pagan)
yeah, but i am interested in lsit of particular sources and christian equivalents. Can you name a few and their source, from list you mentioned? Thanks.

[djrafikie]

Nearly all the decent bits of xtianity are from paganism, including, but not exhaustively, most of the holidays, some holidays that really don't seem xtian on not very close scruitny (harvest festival), symbolism related to blood (life) and foodstuffs (becoming/or literally being the body), statments that there are "gods" (in genesis) which actually definatively makes the bible pantheistic (very pagan)
yeah, but i am interested in lsit of particular sources and christian equivalents. Can you name a few and their source, from list you mentioned? Thanks.

The pantheistic bit can be easily checked out, just read the bible!
(if adam ate the apple men would become "as gods" (not god, bear in mind only one man existed, it is the plural).


the idea of sacrifice is not enjoined by pagans, it is actually our heritage

http://www.factmonster.com/dictionary/brewers/divine-pagan.html

and in addition, the christian ideas realting to paganism can be easily referenced, again, simply by reading the bible.

It is worth bearing in mind that the term paganism was coined by constantine, previous to this is is not used in any texts, it is effectively a rascist term employed by him to express his distaste. We have reclaimed the term in much the same sense as homosexuals have reclaimed the terms gay and queer, they (and I) are proud to use them, bugger the enemy.

In terms of "sources" what are you after? This is one aspect of scholarly research I am highly familiar with, and I will endevour to help you out, but your question is very general and I could bore the entire thread to tears listing things so minor, or diverse, that they would rather rip their own eyes out than carry on reading (thus creating thread death).

Message me pvt if you like, but do think carefully about specific things you would like (ie - pictures of artefacts, scholarly papers, opposing xtian papers, historical documents), and bear in mind that some people referred to as pagans were often "targets" in the nazi germany sense, and that the term witch, and pagan, were used against people in land disputes and other material aspects.

weeding out the real stuff from the groundless accustations can be very hard work.:wave:

[vid]

I would be mainly interested not in biblical text itself, but in post NT tradition, particulary "pagan" gods made christian saints. I've heard about this quite a lot, but haven't seen any pagan god -> saint example.

[KatAutumn]

Don't you happen to know some more exhaustive list of pagan deities / rituals / ideas that got fused into christianity? I mean things like Jesus birthday on Sol Invictus feast, pagan deities converted to christian saints, christmas tree, etc.

I am more interested in catholic church, not eastern christianity (but list for eastern christianity would be interesting too, of course).

If you can remember just few cases, that is welcomed too, maybe we'll compile such list here.

Thank you.

~Communion is an offshoot of the ancient Pagan Cake and Ale rite that was traditionally used during Sabbat rituals. Leftovers of the cakes and mead were offered as libations to the deities.

~The use of incense during Catholic Mass. Pagans traditionally "smudge" an area and individuals with incense to purify them of negative energy prior to opening the sacred circle.

~The use of candles during worship.

~Easter and all of the modern-day traditions that go along with it have Pagan roots. Ostara was the Pagan Sabbat to celebrate Eostre, the Saxon Goddess of fertility. Eggs, baskets, celebration and even the ritual of purchasing a new outfit for that special Sunday all have ties to ancient Pagan rituals.

~The Devil, Satan, Lucifer, etc. The concept of the devil stems from the Pagan depiction of Pan, or the Horned God of the Hunt. The modern-day view of Satan with his horns and capacity to drive humans to commit acts of evil all stem from myths perpetuated by the early Church to lure Pagans away from the old religion.

~Baptism used as a means to purify. Many Neo-Pagans still practice the old Pagan tradition of taking a ritual bath prior to rituals. It is meant to cleanse the body of negative energy.

~The Triune nature of God stems from the Triple Goddess (Father, Son, Holy Ghost/Maiden, Mother, Crone).

~The Triquetra is a symbol that some Christians have used throughout the centuries to illustrate the Holy Trinity; however, it is believed to have traditionally been an ancient symbol of Odin.

~The Mother Mary is viewed by Christians (and revered by Catholics) as the sacred vessel through which their god was born into the world. It is believed the depiction of Mary as the Holy Mother stems from the early Goddess worship that predates Christianity.

[fatpie42]

~The Triquetra is a symbol that some Christians have used throughout the centuries to illustrate the Holy Trinity; however, it is believed to have traditionally been an ancient symbol of Odin.


Cool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triquetra#Ancient_usage

http://witchcraft-supplies.com/5Prod/RA46CS.jpg

Hmmm... kinda reminds me of the tri-force from the Legend of Zelda:
http://www.thedailyblitz.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/triforce.jpg

:D

[fatpie42]

I would be mainly interested not in biblical text itself, but in post NT tradition, particulary "pagan" gods made christian saints. I've heard about this quite a lot, but haven't seen any pagan god -> saint example.

St. Brigid of Ireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid_of_Ireland#Connection_with_pagan_Brigid

[Malachi151]

I would be mainly interested not in biblical text itself, but in post NT tradition, particulary "pagan" gods made christian saints. I've heard about this quite a lot, but haven't seen any pagan god -> saint example.

Saint Nicholas:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=233056

[vid]

Thank you guys, so far.

I have two objections though:

~The use of incense during Catholic Mass. Pagans traditionally "smudge" an area and individuals with incense to purify them of negative energy prior to opening the sacred circle.
I understand Jews did use incense too, so this adoption was in pre-OT times, right?

~Baptism used as a means to purify. Many Neo-Pagans still practice the old Pagan tradition of taking a ritual bath prior to rituals. It is meant to cleanse the body of negative energy.
I think Nazarenes did have purifying ritual of entering water, and there is also "Jesus Nazarene" possible connection with early christians. So alternative explanation could be that early christians were offshoot of nazarene sect.

[robto]

Thank you guys, so far.


~Baptism used as a means to purify. Many Neo-Pagans still practice the old Pagan tradition of taking a ritual bath prior to rituals. It is meant to cleanse the body of negative energy.
I think Nazarenes did have purifying ritual of entering water, and there is also "Jesus Nazarene" possible connection with early christians. So alternative explanation could be that early christians were offshoot of nazarene sect.

Or another Jewish sect: Essenes were fond of ritual purifications, and John the Baptist, um, baptised. But why look for a Jewish parallel with close connections to Christian origins when there's a vague pagan parallel anywhere else in the universe?

[KatAutumn]

Thank you guys, so far.

I have two objections though:

~The use of incense during Catholic Mass. Pagans traditionally "smudge" an area and individuals with incense to purify them of negative energy prior to opening the sacred circle.
I understand Jews did use incense too, so this adoption was in pre-OT times, right?

~Baptism used as a means to purify. Many Neo-Pagans still practice the old Pagan tradition of taking a ritual bath prior to rituals. It is meant to cleanse the body of negative energy.
I think Nazarenes did have purifying ritual of entering water, and there is also "Jesus Nazarene" possible connection with early christians. So alternative explanation could be that early christians were offshoot of nazarene sect.

I have to be honest and say that my knowledge of Judaism is limited at best, so I was not aware of the use of incense by pre-christianity Jews.

[andrewcriddle]

I have to be honest and say that my knowledge of Judaism is limited at best, so I was not aware of the use of incense by pre-christianity Jews.

Incense was certainly used by in the Jewish temple ritual (there are several OT references to this) , however it does not seem to have been used in Christian worship till after 300 CE. (It may possibly have been a practice of Syrian Christianity which then spread more widely.)

See http://landru.i-link-2.net/shnyves/incense_offering.htm

Andrew Criddle

[vid]

found few more:

Saint Goerge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George#Life_and_legend) and Perseus

Pope urging preachers to religious merging:
http://englishheathenism.homestead.com/popesletter.html

[Cesc]

found few more:

Saint Goerge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George#Life_and_legend) and Perseus

Pope urging preachers to religious merging:
http://englishheathenism.homestead.com/popesletter.html

I believe the St. George brave knight rescuing the maiden/princess from monster theme is both from Perseus/Hesione and Hercules/Andromeda. Same theme is also found in later American mythology.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/Epsilon-dat/princess_leia_gold_bikinis.jpg

:huh: :grin:

[Crimson Glory]

There are some lists here:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/syncretism.html

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/out-of-egypt.html

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/melange.html

[vid]

I believe the St. George brave knight rescuing the maiden/princess from monster theme is both from Perseus/Hesione and Hercules/Andromeda. Same theme is also found in later American mythology.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/Epsilon-dat/princess_leia_gold_bikinis.jpg

:huh: :grin:

:grin:

I found this claim in a partly scholary book, and then when i looked up it on wikipedia, same claim was repeated:

The parallels with Perseus and Andromeda are inescapable. In the allegorical reading, the dragon embodies a suppressed pagan cult.[6] The story has roots that predate Christianity. Examples such as Sabazios, the sky father, who was usually depicted riding on horseback, and Zeus's defeat of Typhon the Titan in Greek mythology, along with examples from Germanic and Vedic traditions, have led a number of historians, such as Loomis, to suggest that George is a Christianized version of older deities in Indo-European culture.

Crimson Glory: Thanks. I know jesusneverexisted.com likes to pull their arguments too far sometimes, so i need to recheck every claim there (no sources given), but still this a nice list of material to go through.

[yalla]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre
This 'evolution' may need to be checked.

The mitre:
- "now known as the traditional, ceremonial head-dress of bishops and certain abbots in the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, some Lutherans, and also bishops and certain other clergy in the Eastern Orthodox Church, Eastern Catholic Churches and the Oriental Orthodox Churches."
-"Its use has possible precedents in the Phrygian mithraic sacrifice and the mitre-like headdress signifying enlightenment and received at a priests inauguration"
[note 'possible']

-" "The tiara [from which the mitre originates] probably developed from the Phrygian cap, or frigium, a conical cap worn in the Greco-Roman world"

[mountainman]

Thank you guys, so far.


OK Vid, What about this list of three parts ?


INDEX of cited "Early Christian" Inscriptions

01 253 CE - de Rossi's Cornelius Stone [Probable forgery].
02 250 CE - The Marcus son of Alexander inscription. ["I beg of you, kind brothers, by the one God"]
03 217 CE - the Marcus Aurelius Prosenes inscription. [Later hand: "welcomed before god"]
04 250 CE - Basilides Inscription, Ostia, Rome [The phrase "he sleeps" is christian?]
05 3rd CE - "Helix" athlete, Eumenia. [not located]
06 3rd CE - Nicomedia, Bithnya: 3rd CE Phoenician wood carver. [not located]
07 3rd CE - Aurelius Aristeas Inscription, Akmonein. ["reckon with the righteousness of God."]
08 1st CE - Erastus Inscription, mid first century. ["Paul mentions an Erastus"]
09 3rd CE - Fox; Harland; Snyder - Asia Minor and Phrygia ["he will reckon with (the living) God." ].
10 200 CE - The Marcus Demetrianos Inscription ["most holy ones who also had faith in God"].
11 216 CE - Inscription of Abercius [Cannot be unambiguously associated with christianity]
12 253 CE - Inscription of Pectorius. [Cannot be unambiguously associated with christianity]




INDEX of cited "Early Christian" Papyrii and Papyrii Fragments

101 sql CE: P.Oxy 5 "christian". [Nomina sacra ?]
102 3rd CE: P.Bas 17 [non christian]
103 303 CE: P.Oxy 43 Nighwatchmen's report - 2 churches. [two churches]
104 sql CE: P.Oxy 210 A "christian" fragment. [Nomina sacra ?]
105 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 405 Irenaeus.[Dating?]
106 3/4 CE: P.Oxy 407 "christian amulet; 3rd/4th century". [4th amulet]
107 265 CE: P.Oxy. 412 and 907[Nomina sacra ?]
108 2nd CE: PSI.XIV.1412 "via Sotas, the christian". [chrestian?]
109 3rd CE: P.Oxy 1786 Hymn with music "christian". [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]
110 3rd CE: P.Oxy 2070 Scratch pad "christian". [abbreviated (I—h—) 'Jesus']
111 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 2276[ “in the lord god” ]
112 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 2404 [ “in the lord god” ]
113 256 CE: P.Oxy 3035 Order to arrest "chrestian". [citation is "chrestian"]
114 3rd CE: P.Oxy 4365 Booklending.[incorrectly presumed christian]
115 3/4 CE: P.Oxy 1493 lines 4–5; Nomina sacra in letter with virtually no other Christian identifiers[Nomina sacra]



INDEX of other interesting "Non Christian" Papyrii Fragments
which cannot detain us

151 xxx CE: P.Oxy. 3057 [Judge, non christian]
152 xxx CE: P.Oxy. 3313 [Judge, non christian]
153 xxx CE: P.Oxy. 3069 [Judge, non christian]
154 xxx CE: P.Oxy. 3314 [Judge, non christian]
155 4th CE: P.Oxy. 209 [sample]
156 4th CE: P.Oxy. 4127 [sample]
157 4th CE: P.Oxy. 3857 ["Greetings in the Lord"]
158 3rd CE: PSI.9.1041 . ["as is proper"]
159 3rd CE: PSI.9.1041 . ["as is proper"]
160 3rd CE: PSI.9.1041 . ["as is proper"]
161 2nd CE: PSI.3.208 . ["according to custom"]
162 4th CE: P.Oxy. 4010 [magic and "the lord's prayer"]
163 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 32 [everyday life]
164 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 3646 [everyday life]
165 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 115 [everyday life]
166 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 3724 [epigrams to Philodemis]
167 4th CE: P.Walsh Univ.I.20 [church "land-grabs"]
168 4th CE: P.Oxy. 3311 [church "land-grabs"]
169 304 CE: P.Oxy. 2673 [the "illiterate lector"]




INDEX of cited "Early Christian" Archeological relics

200+ Early "christian" Art, Pottery Objects, sarcophagi, relics, sculpture.


Discussion of the sources listed above can be found at this page entitled The Early Christian Epigraphic Habit (http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/epigraphic_habit.htm).


Best wishes,


Pete

[vid]

mountainman: After quick look, I don't see how that answer my question. Maybe you was being ironic under impression I am looking for info for some "constantine invented christianity" theory? That's not the case. I am simply looking for aspects of earlier pagan religions that were fused into christianity, I hope you agree there were such :)

Still, it's a very interesting list, haven't seen your site so far.

[Roger Pearse]

~Easter and all of the modern-day traditions that go along with it have Pagan roots. Ostara was the Pagan Sabbat to celebrate Eostre, the Saxon Goddess of fertility.


Are you under the impression that the ancients called the festival by the English word 'Easter'? :)


~The Triune nature of God stems from the Triple Goddess (Father, Son, Holy Ghost/Maiden, Mother, Crone).


I find no reference to this as a source in Tertullian Adversus Praxean, which defines the formula of the Trinity for the first time. On the other hand there is a great deal of comment that no-one wants anything that sounds like paganism.

Seriously, you've picked up some stuff which is nearly complete rubbish here. Not your fault, of course, but beware of such things online.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[mountainman]

mountainman: After quick look, I don't see how that answer my question. Maybe you was being ironic under impression I am looking for info for some "constantine invented christianity" theory? That's not the case. I am simply looking for aspects of earlier pagan religions that were fused into christianity, I hope you agree there were such :)

Still, it's a very interesting list, haven't seen your site so far.

Hey Vid,

I am defending the argument that every single citation on the above list is either pagan or jewish. IMO every one of these citations, which have been represented by various scholars and academics of yesterday and today as being "christian" are in fact not christian at all.

More in line with your question other pagan influences on christianity must include the following:

* The Logos of Heraclitus via Philo
* The Healing God Ascelpius via many pagans
* The writer and sage Apollonius of Tyana (man of letters)
* The Sybils.
* The Pontifex Maximus
* Porphyry's literary subject matter c.312-324 CE
* Heroditus
* The Gita (whoever wrote "The Acts of Peter and the 12 A's" references it)
* The sayings of the Essenes and Therapeutae (via Philo)


Best wishes,


Pete

[andrewcriddle]

:grin:

I found this claim in a partly scholary book, and then when i looked up it on wikipedia, same claim was repeated:

The parallels with Perseus and Andromeda are inescapable. In the allegorical reading, the dragon embodies a suppressed pagan cult.[6] The story has roots that predate Christianity. Examples such as Sabazios, the sky father, who was usually depicted riding on horseback, and Zeus's defeat of Typhon the Titan in Greek mythology, along with examples from Germanic and Vedic traditions, have led a number of historians, such as Loomis, to suggest that George is a Christianized version of older deities in Indo-European culture.


The problem is that the dragon is a medieval addition to the legend of St George.

The earliest ascertainable versions of the story of St George are preposterous but with no dragon.

Andrew Criddle

[andrewcriddle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre
This 'evolution' may need to be checked.

The mitre:
- "now known as the traditional, ceremonial head-dress of bishops and certain abbots in the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, some Lutherans, and also bishops and certain other clergy in the Eastern Orthodox Church, Eastern Catholic Churches and the Oriental Orthodox Churches."
-"Its use has possible precedents in the Phrygian mithraic sacrifice and the mitre-like headdress signifying enlightenment and received at a priests inauguration"
[note 'possible']

-" "The tiara [from which the mitre originates] probably developed from the Phrygian cap, or frigium, a conical cap worn in the Greco-Roman world"IIUC the various forms of the frigium were originally adopted in late antiquity by some church officials (including deaconesses and later abbesses) as a sign of rank. This was not at first a liturgical garment.

This practice could I suppose be criticized for worldliness but not as meaningfully pagan.

Much later in medieval times some of thse forms of headgear became liturgical dress to be worn during church services.

Andrew Criddle

[mountainman]

no dragon


Maybe not with St. George but certainly with Apollonius (http://www.mountainman.com.au/atyana25.html).


Best wishes,



Pete

[Huon]

The first Rogations, the Greater Litanies, was introduced as a Christian substitute for the Roman pagan celebration Robigalia, which was a special celebration to pray for crops. The ceremony consisted in a procession of parishioners, led by the minister, churchwarden, and choirboys, would walk around the boundary of their parish, pray for its protection in the forthcoming year, and sing hymns.

An extension of the Rogations is the benediction of all sorts of dangerous work tools, such as fishermen's ships, and even racing cars !