If the end result is heaven ....

[ziffel]

Why not just start there?

What's up with this ridiculous stage play that has gone horribly awry? God didn't see it coming? Or is that he just didn't care that most of his creation would fail his test?

If the end result is a bunch of worshippers in a heavenly environment, why not just start with that, and spare us the immense suffering?

If God exists, his plan is a monumental failure, and he sucks at his job.

Worst. Plan. Ever.

[breathilizer]

This is actually a good point. In most of the major religions, we're just an apple pie baking in the oven. The problem is that if a god wanted pie, there wouldn't have to be any baking. There would be no wait. Just *poof* and there's the pie. Some people might argue that a god wants us to "earn it" but why? Does that improve the quality? Would a god not have the power to create the highest quality worshippers right off the bat? If this is the only way for a god to get a desired result, then that god is limited in power and imagination.

[Trout]

Shhhhhh.

Don't nudge the sleeping brains

[WVIncagold]

This is actually a good point. In most of the major religions, we're just an apple pie baking in the oven. The problem is that if a god wanted pie, there wouldn't have to be any baking. There would be no wait. Just *poof* and there's the pie. Some people might argue that a god wants us to "earn it" but why? Does that improve the quality? Would a god not have the power to create the highest quality worshippers right off the bat? If this is the only way for a god to get a desired result, then that god is limited in power and imagination.

Never mind its like baking a pie and just eating the apple seeds contained in the pie and throwing the rest away, which considering the amount of no true chrsitan arguments we hear on a regular basis heaven is a pretty sparse place.
But i agree why bake the pie if your magically delicious? I mean the luck charms leprechaun doesn't need to to go to the store by a box of lucky charms and the milk he just waves his hand and *poof* he has his lucky charms. why he chases after the kids once they steal his lucky charms is another story i never figured out why not *poof* another bowl but hey that would not be as entertaining now would it?

[Half-Life]

I've always wondered this myself. This is the main reason a lot of Christians give for suffering and starving children in the world. They say that God is allowing them into Heaven and stopping their suffering.

Well, if God is willing to create children that do nothing but starve all day and then get a free ride into Heaven, why doesn't he just put everyone in Heaven instead of a select few? This is showing that God wants certain people in Heaven quickly and couldn't care less about how long it takes others. In this case, the starving children would be lucky they are getting free rides and don't have to do jack shit and worry about reading the wrong holy book or not accepting Jesus.

But, here in the United States, God has a plan for us and wants us to spread the Gospel?!?!?

:banghead:

[breathilizer]

It's unsettling that we even grant the big "IF" in order to get into this discussion at all. We set aside the axiom that god wants worshippers. Well I don't think we should take that for granted. Why would a god want anything in the first place?

Then again, floating outside of space and time in utter solitude would be torturously boring, but observing suffering might make it seem tolerable by comparison.

[J.F. Gaul]

This is actually a good point. In most of the major religions, we're just an apple pie baking in the oven. The problem is that if a god wanted pie, there wouldn't have to be any baking. There would be no wait. Just *poof* and there's the pie. Some people might argue that a god wants us to "earn it" but why? Does that improve the quality? Would a god not have the power to create the highest quality worshippers right off the bat? If this is the only way for a god to get a desired result, then that god is limited in power and imagination.

Christians will generally tell you that God wouldn't create us in heaven because that wouldn't give human beings the free choice of whether to be with Him or not.

[breathilizer]

Christians will generally tell you that God wouldn't create us in heaven because that wouldn't give human beings the free choice of whether to be with Him or not.

So he should ask us flat out. Why not ask "Hey, you wanna worship me?" Cut the drama. Does it really have to take 80 years? Why not 10 seconds? Hell, why not a million years? And why do we have to exist in a body in order to make the choice? And why does it have to be a body with a superfluous tail bone?

Is it all just part of his almighty plan and we're just going to have to die to become enlightened? "At first eating, sleeping, fucking and farting for 80 revolutions around the sun made no sense, but it's all so obvious now!"

[Newfie]

I’ll play the “Christian’s Advocate” here and point out that, to our friends the believers, humans were designed to be with God in the garden but, you know, we sort of blew it, so now God has this “screening process.”

Interesting posts in this tread. Now I just have to figure out why I’m suddenly thinking about the kitchen scene in the movie American Pie?

[WishboneDawn]

I tend to think it's an idea that came out of a time when our mortal lives just plain sucked and the suckage had no foreseeable end to it. So I'm going to get to go to heaven when I finally die? Sign me up!

In a time and place where are lives are pretty long and fairly comfortable, the idea of heaven seems a little weird.

[douglas]

In a time and place where are lives are pretty long and fairly comfortable, the idea of heaven seems a little weird.

It is amazing what we stress over these days. It used to be "Oh Lord, don't let me starve to death, 'cause we have no food!" Now it's "Oh Lord, we've got food everywhere, so don't let me die from obesity or cancer causing agents in my diet soda!" We are human. We simply must fret about something.

Religious belief goes in stages.

Infancy: "I'm a helpless little baby with these strange god-like blobs hovering around me, occasionally bringing me food and wiping my butt."

Toddler: "My imagination is running wild and I don't know the difference between the natural and supernatural. Santa Claus is real! Magic is real! Monsters are real! God is real! I love that animals and the ark story."

Elementary Age: "My parents are smart! I believe everything they tell me."

Adolescence: "I do what ever my friends think is cool. They go to church and believe in god, so I guess it must be cool to go to church and believe in god."

Adult: "This world is unfair, and sometimes cruel. It's nice to know that God is up there waiting to set everything straight. By the way, I'm getting old and don't want to die, and people that I love are starting to die. Eternal life sounds real good about now."

Each stage builds on the previous one. The "eternal life in heavan at the all you can eat lobster buffet" card is the coupe de grace, but it doesn't really gains its value until later in life.

[Mr. B]

I tend to think it's an idea that came out of a time when our mortal lives just plain sucked and the suckage had no foreseeable end to it.More likely, this story comes up in every civilization because it's a motivator for acting "good" (i.e., not killing, not stealing, etc. benefits your neighbors).

[TheRealityOfMan]

In a time and place where are lives are pretty long and fairly comfortable, the idea of heaven seems a little weird.

It is amazing what we stress over these days. It used to be "Oh Lord, don't let me starve to death, 'cause we have no food!" Now it's "Oh Lord, we've got food everywhere, so don't let me die from obesity or cancer causing agents in my diet soda!" We are human. We simply must fret about something.

Religious belief goes in stages.

Infancy: "I'm a helpless little baby with these strange god-like blobs hovering around me, occasionally bringing me food and wiping my butt."

Toddler: "My imagination is running wild and I don't know the difference between the natural and supernatural. Santa Claus is real! Magic is real! Monsters are real! God is real! I love that animals and the ark story."

Elementary Age: "My parents are smart! I believe everything they tell me."

Adolescence: "I do what ever my friends think is cool. They go to church and believe in god, so I guess it must be cool to go to church and believe in god."

Adult: "This world is unfair, and sometimes cruel. It's nice to know that God is up there waiting to set everything straight. By the way, I'm getting old and don't want to die, and people that I love are starting to die. Eternal life sounds real good about now."

Each stage builds on the previous one. The "eternal life in heavan at the all you can eat lobster buffet" card is the coupe de grace, but it doesn't really gains its value until later in life.



Old Testament prayers =
"Please Jehovah let us slaughter the medianites and let us not be slaughtered by them, oh and give us a nice harvest this year"

New Testament prayers =
"Please Jesus heal me from leprosy and make sure this ship doesn't sink"

Contemporary =
"Please Lord, let our brother Patrick feel your calm as he goes to his job interview on Tuesday and please let John McCain win the Presidency"

[Meta]

Put yourself in God's shoes. If you were an all-seeing, all-knowing mega-being, completely detached from time and the universe, you might just have the idea of creating a little toy world to play around in. And it can be populated by little moving creatures which dart about on the tiny atlas of creation and get involved in silly little things. If they were all happy, that wouldn't be any fun. Instead, they bicker, and fight, some of them drown in tsunamis or explode in volcanic eruptions, but what would an ant farm be if nothing ever happened?

Come to think of it, a Bi-Omni God makes far more sense (non-benevolent), because benevolence is a much harder concept to define than knowledge or power.

This post is silly, by the way.

[TheRealityOfMan]

So is theism.

[Archimedes]

Theists sometimes argue that suffering/evil is a necessary consequence of and acceptable price to pay for having freewill, but if that's true, then what happens in heaven?

Either there's suffering in heaven or we don't have freewill. So either it's possible to have freewill without suffering or freewill isn't so great if it doesn't exist in heaven.

One "explanation" I heard years ago is that because we are in God's presence in heaven, we don't feel the desire to do evil, therefore there is both freewill and no suffering because we simply don't wish to do evil. Which doesn't make any sense, because it goes against that argument that suffering is a necessary price to pay for freewill, and doesn't answer the OP's valid question - why not just have everyone automatically in heaven and everything would just be great and hunky dory?

[ziffel]

One "explanation" I heard years ago is that because we are in God's presence in heaven, we don't feel the desire to do evil, therefore there is both freewill and no suffering because we simply don't wish to do evil.

Which doesn't explain Lucifer/Satan either. Lucifer, along with a third of the angels, apparently were able to exercise free will in heaven, and God's presence was not enough to keep them from rebelling. Who's to say the same thing won't happen again?

The story is of course absurd, which is the point of the OP :)

[juergen]

Maybe he'll feel under-appreciated if people aren't able to come to the conclusion that heaven is the best thing ever if they hadn't gone through suffering before, and aren't in a position to compare the good to the bad.

Apparently, "being made whole" is not as enjoyable if you didn't decide to go that route yourself, or suffer for it before, no matter how infinitely whole or complete one might feel in heaven.

Which of course, brings up the question of why he then will erase all the bad from the memories as people enter heaven. Even if this erasure were a gradual process, it couldn't possibly take the whole of eternity.

Once a person has forgotten all the bad and life on earth, it would be in the same position than if God had just put them in heaven without prior suffering or choosing. The person wouldn't even remember choosing God in his past life, he would just enjoy being where he is.

[Syed]

Why not just start there?

What's up with this ridiculous stage play that has gone horribly awry? God didn't see it coming? Or is that he just didn't care that most of his creation would fail his test?

If the end result is a bunch of worshippers in a heavenly environment, why not just start with that, and spare us the immense suffering?

If God exists, his plan is a monumental failure, and he sucks at his job.

Worst. Plan. Ever.



check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVQ1BWqjTjs

[Half-Life]

Why not just start there?

What's up with this ridiculous stage play that has gone horribly awry? God didn't see it coming? Or is that he just didn't care that most of his creation would fail his test?

If the end result is a bunch of worshippers in a heavenly environment, why not just start with that, and spare us the immense suffering?

If God exists, his plan is a monumental failure, and he sucks at his job.

Worst. Plan. Ever.



check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVQ1BWqjTjs

That's hilarious. He says, "Why did God create human beings?" Then, he says "Look at the answer!" and he reads it from the Qu'ran I believe. (I'm assuming Quran because it says he's Muslim, not Christian.)

Using the Quran to prove the Quran? Hmmm, haven't I heard of that from some other group that uses a Bible? What's the name of that faith? ;)

[ziffel]

check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVQ1BWqjTjs

Yeah, and ... ?

[TheRealityOfMan]

An Atheist guy becomes a Monotheist and Muslims reinforce their beliefs by hearing his testimony. Meanwhile in another part of town a Malaysian Muslim converts to Roman Catholicism. I am sure they have reasons that appear good for them.

[ziffel]

An Atheist guy becomes a Monotheist and Muslims reinforce their beliefs by hearing his testimony. Meanwhile in another part of town a Malaysian Muslim converts to Roman Catholicism. I am sure they have reasons that appear good for them.

Yeah I was just wondering what the video has to do with the questions in the OP.

An atheist converts to Islam, therefore God's Plan™ suddenly makes sense? Besides, for Syed, I was referring to the bible and Christian god story. Islam is so blatantly misogynist warmongering that I rarely bother discussing it.

[Sapho]

I’ll play the “Christian’s Advocate” here and point out that, to our friends the believers, humans were designed to be with God in the garden but, you know, we sort of blew it, so now God has this “screening process.”

Interesting posts in this tread. Now I just have to figure out why I’m suddenly thinking about the kitchen scene in the movie American Pie?

Of course god "knew" we would blow it in the garden, he went ahead anyway because its omniscience will does not allow god free will. What is foreseen must come to pass.

God and humanity are slaves to omniscience

[orac]

I’ll play the “Christian’s Advocate” here and point out that, to our friends the believers, humans were designed to be with God in the garden but, you know, we sort of blew it, so now God has this “screening process.”
Well, I can't speak for them or even for you, but I certainly wasn't invited to the garden, didn't get asked my opinion on apples or figs or whatever fruit may have been involved, and I suspect I may have asked god for clarification on the talking snake with legs before blindly doing whatever it told me to do.

And in any case, as beautiful as it may be that the lion will lie down with the lamb in heaven (in a purely platonic way, one would hope), I'm still a little fuzzy on precisely why Adam and Eve eating the non-specific fruit means that all the little lambs somehow deserved to become herbivores and lion food while the lions somehow got the right to eat lambs until Jesus comes back and makes everything safe for the little fluffy things.

[Apostate1970]

Why not just start there?

"Hatred which is completely vanquished by love passes into love: and love is thereupon greater than if hatred had not preceded it." ~ Spinoza

[ziffel]

Why not just start there?

"Hatred which is completely vanquished by love passes into love: and love is thereupon greater than if hatred had not preceded it." ~ Spinoza

So evil is a necessity?

[juergen]

Why not just start there?

"Hatred which is completely vanquished by love passes into love: and love is thereupon greater than if hatred had not preceded it." ~ Spinoza

Would this mean God loves us more after hating us?

[Keith&Co.]

Christians will generally tell you that God wouldn't create us in heaven because that wouldn't give human beings the free choice of whether to be with Him or not.Didn't Satan and the other Fallen have, and make, that choice?

[J.F. Gaul]

Didn't Satan and the other Fallen have, and make, that choice?

I guess. :huh:

[Keith&Co.]

Didn't Satan and the other Fallen have, and make, that choice?

I guess. :huh:So, popular religion tells us that it is possible to be in heaven and have free will, even to the point of losing paradise.

[Apostate1970]

"Hatred which is completely vanquished by love passes into love: and love is thereupon greater than if hatred had not preceded it." ~ Spinoza

So evil is a necessity?

good can be greater with evil than if evil had never been. does that make it a "necessity"? not even sure what that means.

[Apostate1970]

"Hatred which is completely vanquished by love passes into love: and love is thereupon greater than if hatred had not preceded it." ~ Spinoza

Would this mean God loves us more after hating us?

For God, all of the hatred would have already been vanquished and passed into love, so God would not just love more, but would not hate at all.

Put another way, the question of God's affect doesn't even arise until all of the hating has been done (not by Her but by us), so there's no point at which God ever hates.

God's affect never changes.