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Socius
May 23, 2008, 03:12 PM
How does one approach the argument that those who haven't heard the gospel are indeed deserving of eternal damnation in hell? The argument usually goes something like this: All people are born 'sinful' and it is in their nature to reject God. Whether or not an individual actually hears the gospel from another human being is irrelevant because each and every person knows in their heart that God (capital G) exists (via Romans 1:20). Thus, God is justified in treating even a person from an isolated culture without access to Christian doctrine as sinful and unworthy of heaven.

Obviously the implication here is that it is possible to come to some sort of understanding of Christianity through general revelation, but to my astonishment Christians usually deny that this is the case! Apparently it is possible for an individual to be damned forever without ever knowing that there is a way out of this damnation (Jesus, for the sake of argument). I keep trying to get a clear answer regarding just how much Christian theology can be deduced through pure reason and observation, but each and every time we arrive back at square one; that everyone has the chance to seek God for themselves and that one can be wholly ignorant of Christianity and still be justifiably damned. It almost seems to suggest that every person is a believer of sorts and that every person personally rejects this belief at some point in their life, perhaps even from birth. This is essentially a total denial of the existence of any opposing viewpoint: The idea that there are no atheists, Hindus, Muslims or followers of indigenous religions... only people who deny the Christian God.

Am I missing something here? I have had much more success arguing against doctrines like Purgatory, the "age of accountability" and even post-death revelation by god, but this argument rests on such a mountain of assumptions that I can't figure out where to begin in order to help people see my point of view. I suppose I'm just frustrated because there is so much to disagree with. Your thoughts?

Half-Life
May 23, 2008, 03:15 PM
All the responses you will get will be from Christian humans speaking on God's behalf because God is too shy to speak for Himself.

This is the type of question you need to ask God Himself. ;)

J.F. Gaul
May 23, 2008, 03:20 PM
Christians believe that God is just, and wouldn't do something if it wasn't just. That is all.


God is too shy to speak for Himself.

What, with more than a billion people telling him how awesome he is everyday? What a putz! :)

Deus Ex
May 23, 2008, 04:35 PM
This is the argument I like to bring up to Christians. Since you can't be saved without hearing the gospels, then why did God not care to get the gospel message to the native americans for 16 centuries or more after Jesus' death?

Were they saved on their good deeds? Did all go to hell? What about gentiles during Old Testament times. Were any saved, and how did that work?

Did salvation change from good deeds to belief in Jesus at the very moment of resurrection? How, exactly, was salvation attained in OT times?

goddidit
May 23, 2008, 06:21 PM
I remember having this conversation years ago with an ex of mine who was southern baptist. According to her beliefs, all who were never exposed to the gospel should "just know" that there is a god and to worship him. And and I can't imagine she meant any other than the Christian god. Otherwise, off to hell they all go. This was, however, coming from a girl who's mother believed I was damned to hell-fire because she thought I was Episcopalian!

TheRealityOfMan
May 23, 2008, 09:13 PM
In my experience many Christians just go for the cop-out lines such as...

"We leave these questions to the Lord"

"It is the Lord who ultimately decide"

"God knows His own"

"We as Christians don't judge whether someone will go to heaven or not. Only the Lord decides!"

"We trust in the Lord's judgement"

"Only God knows the hearts of men"

The other week in Speaker's Corner, Hyde Park...

"Aaah, now as Muslims we say that Allah reserves judgment on this and we cannot speculate on individual cases"

Doug Shaver
May 24, 2008, 11:56 AM
How does one approach the argument that those who haven't heard the gospel are indeed deserving of eternal damnation in hell?
Christians get that argument from one of Paul's epistles. When an apologist throws it at me, I respond by asking why I should take Paul's word for it.