Uncontacted Indian tribe spotted in Brazil

[Potoooooooo]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080530/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_indians
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil - One of Brazil's last uncontacted Indian tribes has been spotted in the far western Amazon jungle near the Peruvian border, the National Indian Foundation said Thursday.

[barbos]

One person seems to be black skinned or covered in black

[premjan]

Probably body paint. The others look a little too red.

[Fenton Mulley]

We need to hurry up and put second hand T-shirts and shorts on these poor naked savages and tell them all about Jebus.

Ain't nothing cuter than a tribesman in an ALF shirt.

[SwoleMan]

We need to hurry up and put second hand T-shirts and shorts on these poor naked savages and tell them all about Jebus.

Ain't nothing cuter than a tribesman in an ALF shirt.

They know about Jesus already, but they supress that knowledge because of their unrighteousness.

[Veovis]

So, by "uncontacted" do they mean that this tribe has no idea of the existence of the modern world?

[modernPrimitive]

wow. That's awesome.

I love the way they're targeting the plane / helicopter with their weapons - unsure of what they're seeing.

The "black" person seems to have a different social status from the warriors in red - curious about the goings-on yet being protected by the warriors. I wonder if it's female - can't see from the resolution of the image. If not female then probably a shaman or some kind of chieftan.

[Reason]

I am skeptical about this story, but if it is true, my first thought on reading it was: "Oh, great. Now the missionaries will make all effort to locate these people to tell them about Jeebus, get the whole tribe sanitized Sanforized, and baptized, and screw up their lives."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1022822/Incredible-pictures-Earths-uncontacted-tribes-firing-bows-arrows.html

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Don't worry, there's plenty of esquerdismo (leftism) in Brazil. Although the human rights organizations might be dormant or unprepared for defending the indigenas. Very interesting though. Primitive tribes have helped us understand ourselves very much. I'm sure the school of anthropology of the Fundação Nacional do Índio will take care of them, and one or two schools of anthropology, such as the ones at the Universidade de São Paulo and others.

[Szkeptik]

That was among the first thoughts I had when seeing the pictures on TV. I just know there are more than a few whacko preachers trying to find out where they are as you are reading this.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

The tribespeople are likely to think the plane that took this photograph is a spirit or large bird

Seems to me they're actually shooting at the helicopter. I think the reporters have been watching too much TV. That they are "likely" to think it's a spirit or a large bird leaves a lot of possibilities in between. Maybe that's the reporter's way of saying "the hell would I know!"

[Fenton Mulley]

That was among the first thoughts I had when seeing the pictures on TV. I just know there are more than a few whacko preachers trying to find out where they are as you are reading this.

Yep. That was my concern in the other thread about this.

The next time we see that red guy on the left he'll be wearing 1970's swim trunks and a t-shirt that says "Where's the beef?".

[Potoooooooo]

Maybe this should be merged with my thread:rolleyes:

[nelsondogg]

That was among the first thoughts I had when seeing the pictures on TV. I just know there are more than a few whacko preachers trying to find out where they are as you are reading this.

Yep. That was my concern in the other thread about this.

The next time we see that red guy on the left he'll be wearing 1970's swim trunks and a t-shirt that says "Where's the beef?".

I think some atheist "missionaries" should get to them first, not to try to convert them but to warn them about the Jebus freaks that are about to descend upon them.

"Beware of anyone with stories of a zombie god... They are evil liars who really want to destroy your way of life."

[Potoooooooo]

Hey mods maybe we can combine there 2 threads

[Apostate1970]

So, by "uncontacted" do they mean that this tribe has no idea of the existence of the modern world?

These people were aiming bows and arrows at the helicopter, some hiding, others looking on in fear and amazement. What does that say?

I think that we need to hide some of these people away from the missionaries because if they learn about Jesus then the world will end.

:rolleyes:

[MxM111]

So, by "uncontacted" do they mean that this tribe has no idea of the existence of the modern world?

These people were aiming bows and arrows at the helicopter, some hiding, others looking on in fear and amazement. What does that say?

I say they have seen it before, because otherwise they all would run and hide in terror, because this huge metal bird can easily eat them, judging by the size of it. It is also very loud, and thus is angry and hungry.
But even unarmed woman is not hiding.

[Apostate1970]

These people were aiming bows and arrows at the helicopter, some hiding, others looking on in fear and amazement. What does that say?

I say they have seen it before, because otherwise they all would run and hide in terror, because this huge metal bird can easily eat them, judging by the size of it. It is also very loud, and thus is angry and hungry.
But even unarmed woman is not hiding.

I can tell you that if I saw a big metal bird flying and hovering around my community and it was pretty clearly big enough to punch a hole through the roof of any one of our straw huts and all I had to fight it with was sticks and stones or spears or arrows or even just my claws and teeth then I might hesitate and hide for a short while but before long I would be out there thumping my chest challenging it to a death match... maybe get on top of one of the roofs or something if it would support my weight.

Also it's pretty clear that they could eventually make out humans being inside so that would temper their reaction, especially if the human-carrying bird didn't seem to be attacking. If you look at the multiple pictures this seems to be what happened. I don't know what order they were taken in but some show the whole area clear with no villagers outside, and others show just a couple/few people outside, still others show many more (over a dozen) outside staring.

Also you never even responded to the fact that many (including women) did have bows and arrows ready.

[Civil1z@tion]

I'm pretty sure the black person was a) a woman (because I'm pretty sure I could make out boobs) and b) was wearing body paint. I wouldn't be surprised if the other black figure shown in the slideshow was also a woman. Perhaps that's their version of makeup?

[apatura_iris]

I have trouble believing they were truly uncontacted, in that they hadn't even heard rumors of an outside world. The tribes in that area do communicate with each other even when they are warring with each other. Chances are they had at least heard some things about the modern world.

I read an anthropoligical study of the Yanomamo a while ago and the author claimed he had made contact with the last uncontacted tribe in the area. He noted that they had instant and exact recall of any conversation or story, presumably because oral tradition existed instead of writing.

Interesting anecdote: I had a great-uncle who was a land surveyor for the Brazilian government in the early 1900s. He lived with the Yanomamo for 3 weeks. He was so traumatized and freaked out by the experience that he refused to ever discuss it, and he bequeathed the Yanomamo spears that had been given to him upon his departure to my dad, and they sat in our garage my entire childhood.

[LampreyMoose]

http://www.terragame.com/cdgames/role_play/fallout_2/screen_1.jpg

I'm hoping that SOMEBODY gets the reference here.

[theyeti]

So, by "uncontacted" do they mean that this tribe has no idea of the existence of the modern world?

No, they've read about us on the internet.

theyeti

[premjan]

Interesting anecdote: I had a great-uncle who was a land surveyor for the Brazilian government in the early 1900s. He lived with the Yanomamo for 3 weeks. He was so traumatized and freaked out by the experience that he refused to ever discuss it, and he bequeathed the Yanomamo spears that had been given to him upon his departure to my dad, and they sat in our garage my entire childhood.
That's odd - what might have happened to him?

[Potoooooooo]

Interesting anecdote: I had a great-uncle who was a land surveyor for the Brazilian government in the early 1900s. He lived with the Yanomamo for 3 weeks. He was so traumatized and freaked out by the experience that he refused to ever discuss it, and he bequeathed the Yanomamo spears that had been given to him upon his departure to my dad, and they sat in our garage my entire childhood.
That's odd - what might have happened to him?

Yes, I was thinking the same thing!:confused:

[skepticalbip]

So, by "uncontacted" do they mean that this tribe has no idea of the existence of the modern world?
These people were aiming bows and arrows at the helicopter, some hiding, others looking on in fear and amazement. What does that say?
It could say almost anything.

Hover a helicopter (with all the engine and rotor noise) over a farm in the US, scaring the animals or drowning out the TV show the family was watching and you are likely to have the farmer come out and point his shotgun at it too.

Hover a helicopter low over a suburban community or office park and you will have people come out at look to see what is going on.

The fact that they were looking at it only says that they noticed it. You can only guess at what they were thinking - Fear? Awe? Irritation at being disturbed? Curious? Interest in powered flight...?

[premjan]

More than a third of the Ya̧nomamö males, on average, died from warfare.[3] Men who participated in killings had more wives and children than those who did not.[1] Some Ya̧nomamö men, however, reflected on the futility of their feuds and made it known that they would have nothing to do with the raiding.[1] These findings, originally reported by Chagnon, have been empirically replicated several times.[4]

The accounts of missionaries to the area have recounted constant infighting in the tribes for women or prestige, and evidence of continuous warfare for the enslavement of neighboring tribes such as the Macu before the arrival of European settlers and government.

Violence among the Ya̧nomamö is often domestic, with women commonly beaten by their husbands in disputes. The violence is seen as an act of love by the women, however. Women will shave their head after a beating to show off their bumps. They will even put a red dusting on the bump showing it off even further. [1]
Yanomamo

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Well, that explains grampa's getting freaked out... Thanks, Premjan.

[Apostate1970]

So what you're saying is that it's all the women's fault? Why does this not surprise me. When love is only given to the violent, then the world is violent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata

http://www.playscripts.com/images/plays/lysistrata.jpg

[Potoooooooo]

Well, that explains grampa's getting freaked out... Thanks, Premjan.

Others have lived with that tribe with out getting freaked out. Maybe they were made of sterner stuff than Grandpa

[apatura_iris]

Since he never spoke about it, we don't know what exactly it was, but the society is rather brutal and was probably more so back then. They're also sex-obsessed-- they have as many words for sex acts as the eskimos do for snow, at least according to the book I read. Maybe they tried offering him a few girlfriends during his visit?

Women also practice infanticide if they lack adequate milk supply for the newborn child.

The Yanomamo (Case Studies in Cultural Anthropology) (http://www.amazon.com/Yanomamo-Case-Studies-Cultural-Anthropology/dp/0155053272)

Here's a good review from amazon:

Most introductory ethnographies--descriptions of a variety of cultures--drag on and on. Napoleon Chagnon's Yanomamo is different. From his less-than-ideal first encounter with a dozen warriors who greeted him with bows drawn, to a Jaguar's breath as a wake-up call at 3:00 a.m. in the middle of a jungle, Chagnon takes his readers through one (mis)adventure after another. Still, Yanomamo is far more than an ethnographic thriller depicting a tribal people in southern Venezuela. Chagnon describes in detail the Yanomamos' seemingly exotic practices--the rule that a tribesman should marry his classificatory cross-cousin, or the abduction of women that invariably sparks a war, or a chest-pounding duel at any feast that might prevent an all-out battle from breaking out amid the festivities. More, he explains the significance of these (for us) strange practices: for example, marrying your cross-cousin is a very good way to keep your village together. (Read and find out how.)

Chagnon also relates that the only way he could stop the tribespeople from stealing his food was by telling them that peanut butter was monkey feces.

[GenesisNemesis]

Threads merged.

-GN-

[Potoooooooo]

an update http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080530/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_indians;_ylt=An956EoAVQFoNwtwNrnDJP6s0NUE

[jayh]

Since he never spoke about it, we don't know what exactly it was, but the society is rather brutal and was probably more so back then. They're also sex-obsessed-- they have as many words for sex acts as the eskimos do for snow, at least according to the book I read. Maybe they tried offering him a few girlfriends during his visit?
.

This is a fascinating, if chilling article about ritual payback culture in Papua New Guinea. This involved people who have one foot in the modern world but one in a very different culture:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/04/21/080421fa_fact_diamond?currentPage=all

[jayh]

In these versions of the pictures, there are labels to make sense of it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7427417.stm

and some other pictures (probably same as seen in other news articles but with some additional explanation)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7426869.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7426794.stm

[WCH]

Since he never spoke about it, we don't know what exactly it was, but the society is rather brutal and was probably more so back then. They're also sex-obsessed-- they have as many words for sex acts as the eskimos do for snow, at least according to the book I read. Maybe they tried offering him a few girlfriends during his visit?The "Eskimo" actually have only four words for snow. That they have many is a myth many seem quick to accept without looking into.

[apatura_iris]

The "Eskimo" actually have only four words for snow. That they have many is a myth many seem quick to accept without looking into.

I'm not sure where you get the number 4, but the Eskimo/Inuit (I was quoting Chagnon from memory, who uses the term "Eskimo" perhaps because it has a specific meaning to anthropologists?) definitely have more than 4 words for snow and ice in their lexeme (it also depends on how you count words in a lexeme, i.e., do you count declensions separately?). Most cultures living in snowy areas do have somewhat complex snow lexemes-- even Quebecois has more snow terms than standard French. Anyway, I suspect Chagnon was just trying to be humorous, as he never did go into detail over exactly how many sex terms the Yanomamo have.

[Condraz23]

Cool. I didn't know tribal people still existed in our modern Westernized world. I mean, it's difficult to imagine a person living in 2008 without having any knowledge of civilization, cars, buildings, television, machines, or money. The very notion of a government would be an alien concept to them. If they are indeed "genuine", do you think we should we attempt to make contact with them? Historically, contact between advanced cultures and primitive cultures have usually resulted in exploitation and disaster for the less advanced culture. I think we should be careful, although the evil side of me tells me to tranquilize them, pack them into a huge helicopter, and drop them off in the middle of New York City at 9:00 in the morning.

[Persona Vitrea]

I think we should be careful, although the evil side of me tells me to tranquilize them, pack them into a huge helicopter, and drop them off in the middle of New York City at 9:00 in the morning.
Sounds like a good premise for a reality tv show. FOX, are you listening?

[Fenton Mulley]

I think we should be careful, although the evil side of me tells me to tranquilize them, pack them into a huge helicopter, and drop them off in the middle of New York City at 9:00 in the morning.
Sounds like a good premise for a reality tv show. FOX, are you listening?

But not on any ordinary day. Release them during the RNC.:D

[WCH]

The "Eskimo" actually have only four words for snow. That they have many is a myth many seem quick to accept without looking into.

I'm not sure where you get the number 4, but the Eskimo/Inuit (I was quoting Chagnon from memory, who uses the term "Eskimo" perhaps because it has a specific meaning to anthropologists?) definitely have more than 4 words for snow and ice in their lexeme (it also depends on how you count words in a lexeme, i.e., do you count declensions separately?). Most cultures living in snowy areas do have somewhat complex snow lexemes-- even Quebecois has more snow terms than standard French. Anyway, I suspect Chagnon was just trying to be humorous, as he never did go into detail over exactly how many sex terms the Yanomamo have.The way my Linguistics prof explained it, their language is combinatorial, not unlike, say, German, and uses a lot of affixes to denote specific meaning. So, depending on how you count, there are quite a few words for snow... but only four root words, which is really the only meaningful measure. I can't remember exactly what they are from memory, but I think they mean something like "falling snow," "snow in mound," "wet snow" and "icy snow." English isn't that far off... we've got "sleet," "hail," "ice," "snow," "powder," etc.

[Z500]

I'm pretty sure the black person was a) a woman (because I'm pretty sure I could make out boobs) and b) was wearing body paint. I wouldn't be surprised if the other black figure shown in the slideshow was also a woman. Perhaps that's their version of makeup?

naked women wearing black full body paint? hot.

[WCH]

I'm pretty sure the black person was a) a woman (because I'm pretty sure I could make out boobs) and b) was wearing body paint. I wouldn't be surprised if the other black figure shown in the slideshow was also a woman. Perhaps that's their version of makeup?

naked women wearing black full body paint? hot.Not naked, seems to be wearing something thin around the waist... so morel like "nearly naked women wearing black full body paint," and paired with nearly naked men wearing red full body paint. Still hot? You decide.

[figuer]

Cool. I didn't know tribal people still existed in our modern Westernized world. I mean, it's difficult to imagine a person living in 2008 without having any knowledge of civilization, cars, buildings, television, machines, or money. It is hard to comprehend the vastness of the forests of Brazil.

[skepticalbip]

Am I the only one that finds the general mood of keeping them primitive rather paternalistic? It's like they are just interesting animals for us to marvel at and shouldn't be allowed to have such things as life saving antibiotics, mosquito nets, steel axes and machetes, or any labor saving or comfort items in general. That they should still be required to die of simple infections, malaria, etc. that are easily cured.

[gregfl]

Don't worry, there's plenty of esquerdismo (leftism) in Brazil. Although the human rights organizations might be dormant or unprepared for defending the indigenas. Very interesting though. Primitive tribes have helped us understand ourselves very much. I'm sure the school of anthropology of the Fundação Nacional do Índio will take care of them, and one or two schools of anthropology, such as the ones at the Universidade de São Paulo and others.

Why are you so sure of this?

Unfortunately, hunter/gatherer tribes are almost extinct. In particular, the few remaining bands of them in the peruvian/brazilian area are under extreme pressure from leftist guerillas, drug cartels, illegal loggers, larger contacted tribes, and oil explorers who cannot drill on the land they occupy. So you can guess what happens when they get in the way of the other people competing for their land...

http://www.survival-international.org/campaigns/uncontactedtribes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples

http://www.villageearth.org/pages/Projects/Peru/perublog/2007/03/uncontacted-tribes-at-risk-of.html


These people are being massacred at a rate that some anthropologists predict their total extinction in the next 50 years.

[WCH]

Cool. I didn't know tribal people still existed in our modern Westernized world. I mean, it's difficult to imagine a person living in 2008 without having any knowledge of civilization, cars, buildings, television, machines, or money. It is hard to comprehend the vastness of the forests of Brazil.It interests me that what's surprising is that they're in the Western Hemisphere, not that they exist. I suppose it's taken for granted that there are uncontacted tribes in New Guinea, simply because of how many isolated islands there are.

[gregfl]

Am I the only one that finds the general mood of keeping them primitive rather paternalistic? It's like they are just interesting animals for us to marvel at and shouldn't be allowed to have such things as life saving antibiotics, mosquito nets, steel axes and machetes, or any labor saving or comfort items in general. That they should still be required to die of simple infections, malaria, etc. that are easily cured.

Have you ever been with native indian? I just left the Peruvian amazon yesterday (coincidence..I am typing this from Lima Peru) and many of these people are very happy living their existence. Many more of their relatives who have moved to the city are poor and hungry. They do not see themselves as poor in the jungle. Many uncontacted tribes ( of which of course I have never seen) refuse all contact with outsiders. The goal is self determination for them, not ¨keeping¨¨ them in any fashion. It would be nice if this became a reality, but I am skeptical.

[skepticalbip]

Am I the only one that finds the general mood of keeping them primitive rather paternalistic? It's like they are just interesting animals for us to marvel at and shouldn't be allowed to have such things as life saving antibiotics, mosquito nets, steel axes and machetes, or any labor saving or comfort items in general. That they should still be required to die of simple infections, malaria, etc. that are easily cured.
Have you ever been with native indian?

I have in fact... The Tarahumara and the Maya.

I just left the Peruvian amazon yesterday (coincidence..I am typing this from Lima Peru) and many of these people are very happy living their existence. Many more of their relatives who have moved to the city are poor and hungry. They do not see themselves as poor in the jungle. Many uncontacted tribes ( of which of course I have never seen) refuse all contact with outsiders. The goal is self determination for them, not ¨keeping¨¨ them in any fashion. It would be nice if this became a reality, but I am skeptical.I am not saying that they should be forcibly "civilized". I am saying that they should be given an opportunity to choose to "improve" their lives if they wish. They are deprived this choice if they are forcibly denied contact and never learn that there are such things as antibiotics, steel tools, mosquito nets, metal cooking utensils, rifles, etc. And they are free to refuse contact if they wish but they should be the ones to take that option, not have it forced on them. I think of them as humans, deserving human options, rather than as a primitive curiosity.

How is it that we want to help the poor in Appalachia but want these humans in the Amazon to remain as primitive as possible?

[jayh]

Am I the only one that finds the general mood of keeping them primitive rather paternalistic? It's like they are just interesting animals for us to marvel at and shouldn't be allowed to have such things as life saving antibiotics, mosquito nets, steel axes and machetes, or any labor saving or comfort items in general. That they should still be required to die of simple infections, malaria, etc. that are easily cured.

I agree with you. This smacks of keeping them as some form of museum piece. Certainly they should not be forced to change, but preventing them from consensual contact with the modern world is a combination of patenalism and 'noble savage' run amuck.

At ther very least they should have access to medicine, and at their choice education.

[figuer]

This smacks of keeping them as some form of museum piece. So?

[Mister Agenda]

And all it will cost is maybe half of them dying from modern, Western diseases they have not developed a resistance to...which, BTW, is how such resistances are developed: descending from someone who survived it. They seem to be healthy and it is very unlikely they don't know we exist: they have made their choice, we should respect it.

[jayh]

And all it will cost is maybe half of them dying from modern, Western diseases they have not developed a resistance to...which, BTW, is how such resistances are developed: descending from someone who survived it. They seem to be healthy and it is very unlikely they don't know we exist: they have made their choice, we should respect it.

Seeing that some of them are alive DOES NOT mean they, as a group are healthy. Even among the known groups, mortality rates are high (not even counting outside diseases). With controlled contact risk of disease can be kept quite low.

They did not necessarily choose not to encounter the outside. They can only make a choice if there is a choice to be made.

[Reason]

Am I the only one that finds the general mood of keeping them primitive rather paternalistic? It's like they are just interesting animals for us to marvel at and shouldn't be allowed to have such things as life saving antibiotics, mosquito nets, steel axes and machetes, or any labor saving or comfort items in general. That they should still be required to die of simple infections, malaria, etc. that are easily cured.

I agree with you. This smacks of keeping them as some form of museum piece. Certainly they should not be forced to change, but preventing them from consensual contact with the modern world is a combination of patenalism and 'noble savage' run amuck.

At ther very least they should have access to medicine, and at their choice education.

Why?

Why should "civilization" impose itself on them?

[figuer]

They did not necessarily choose not to encounter the outside. They can only make a choice if there is a choice to be made.Equally the "outside" has the choice not to contact them.

[skepticalbip]

I agree with you. This smacks of keeping them as some form of museum piece. Certainly they should not be forced to change, but preventing them from consensual contact with the modern world is a combination of patenalism and 'noble savage' run amuck.

At ther very least they should have access to medicine, and at their choice education.

Why?

Why should "civilization" impose itself on them?Who said "impose"? They are humans and merit a choice as to whether or not they want to have access to some of the advantages of the outside world.

I'm afraid that too many have some romantic ideal about living a primitive life - that it is some garden of Eden existence. Primitive life is tough and brutal, life expectancy is low. Many die from simple infections that could have been avoided with nothing more than a little iodine. Don't believe how tough primitive life is? Try walking out into the wilderness with no clothing, tools, or matches and try to survive for a week. I doubt you can even imagine how much people in such living conditions value a simple machete, if they are fortunate enough to have one, which these people apparently don't.

[maxparrish]

Leave them alone. According to one estimate they are among the one hundred or so tribes in the world thought to be uncontacted. Frankly, I am surprised there are that many left.

I suppose I am just an anti-modernist romantic at heart - someone who would like to know what it was like before the world was fully "civilized" by 7 billion people and the 19th century travel stories used to convey a sense of discovering the unknown of lost world's and peoples.

Even as late as the fifties one could read and see the discovery of new tribes in South America and New Guinea - but that is about gone. Logging, mining, and road building are stripping away that world...one day to be criss-crossed by super highways and shopping malls.

If they want to walk out of the jungle and make contact, they will. Till then, leave em be.

[maxparrish]

Why?

Why should "civilization" impose itself on them?Who said "impose"? They are humans and merit a choice as to whether or not they want to have access to some of the advantages of the outside world.

I'm afraid that too many have some romantic ideal about living a primitive life - that it is some garden of Eden existence. Primitive life is tough and brutal, life expectancy is low. Many die from simple infections that could have been avoided with nothing more than a little iodine. Don't believe how tough primitive life is? Try walking out into the wilderness with no clothing, tools, or matches and try to survive for a week. I doubt you can even imagine how much people in such living conditions value a simple machete, if they are fortunate enough to have one, which these people apparently don't.

<Snip>

Frankly, we have no right to intrude on their lives, nor a moral duty to offer a simple innocent folk our so-called blessings.

Oh sure, I know - they will look cute in petticoats and bras, going to mission schools to learn about the true god, voting for corrupt politicians because he sent in a case of beer, becoming dependent on alcohol and government rice, and eventually signing away their land rights to loggers. Then they can be stuck in concrete block houses with metal roofs, live in poverty, and see the forest die around them.

Ya, what a "choice".

[skepticalbip]

<Snip>

I will however address this post by you:

Leave them alone. According to one estimate they are among the one hundred or so tribes in the world thought to be uncontacted. Frankly, I am surprised there are that many left.

I suppose I am just an anti-modernist romantic at heart - someone who would like to know what it was like before the world was fully "civilized" by 7 billion people and the 19th century travel stories used to convey a sense of discovering the unknown of lost world's and peoples.

Even as late as the fifties one could read and see the discovery of new tribes in South America and New Guinea - but that is about gone. Logging, mining, and road building are stripping away that world...one day to be criss-crossed by super highways and shopping malls.

If they want to walk out of the jungle and make contact, they will. Till then, leave em be.
This is the kind of self centered paternalism that concerns me. It is describing how you want the world - with expanses of pristine, untouched wilderness. And to hell with the people that have to struggle with a brutal, labor intensive short life who live there, remaining in ignorance of the choices they could have. That they should be preserved as they are and not given a choice because you think it is cute to be able to imagine that there are still people living a stone age existence.

I will challenge you too then, since you think such a life is wonderful. Walk out into the wilderness with no clothes, tools, matches, or any other convenience that has been developed in the last ten thousand years and try to survive for a week or maybe a month or a year. This is the kind of life your "ideal world" would ever allow these people. - And they are people, not curiosities to make you feel better about the world.
.

[_Naturalist_]

We could make ourselves known to them so they can contact us if they want to. Maybe we could give examples of how they could develop their technologies and offer new ones. Then it would be up to them. Maybe they don't want contact with cultures so different from theirs. I also think that if we offer them medicines, for example, that require scientific knowledge and technology unimaginably superior to theirs, we will have to keep giving it to them and not just cut them off in the future. Maybe we know how to make better or new use of the plant and animal life over there, unless they already know better than we do.

[Demon]

I will challenge you too then, since you think such a life is wonderful. Walk out into the wilderness with no clothes, tools, matches, or any other convenience that has been developed in the last ten thousand years and try to survive for a week or maybe a month or a year. This is the kind of life your "ideal world" would ever allow these people. - And they are people, not curiosities to make you feel better about the world.


Although I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, there is a tremendous difference between an amazon tribesman and someone pampered in the modern world his entire life with no previous experience or knowledge of surviving in the wilderness. While I'm not denying that life is hard in that environment, those people are far better conditioned for living in the wilderness than any of us. Of course this does not mean they should be remain cut off from the modern world.

[skepticalbip]

We could make ourselves known to them so they can contact us if they want to. Maybe we could give examples of how they could develop their technologies and offer new ones. Then it would be up to them. Maybe they don't want contact with cultures so different from theirs. I also think that if we offer them medicines, for example, that require scientific knowledge and technology unimaginably superior to theirs, we will have to keep giving it to them and not just cut them off in the future. Maybe we know how to make better or new use of the plant and animal life over there, unless they already know better than we do.
This is pretty much how contact with isolated groups have previously been done. (Also, we learned quite a while ago to be extremely careful not transmit diseases to them.)

The technique used to make contact is to leave gifts of machetes, axes, knives, cord, cloth, cooking pots, etc. in a clearing in their hunting area for them to find. Repeat several times, and wait for a sign from them that they want to make contact. This technique allows them to make the decision. It also shows them some of the technologies they can choose to accept or not. If they decide to accept the gifts but not make contact, then we will at least have given them tools that will dramatically decrease their labors.

[_Naturalist_]

This is pretty much how contact with isolated groups have previously been done. (Also, we learned quite a while ago to be extremely careful not transmit diseases to them.)

The technique used to make contact is to leave gifts of machetes, axes, knives, cord, cloth, cooking pots, etc. in a clearing in their hunting area for them to find. Repeat several times, and wait for a sign from them that they want to make contact. This technique allows them to make the decision. It also shows them some of the technologies they can choose to accept or not. If they decide to accept the gifts but not make contact, then we will at least have given them tools that will dramatically decrease their labors.
Very interesting, I didn't know that. It does make sense though as a better way to establish contact with them. I wonder if there has been any case where a pretechnological tribe has been contacted like this and they wanted to bridge the gap in technology.

[skepticalbip]

I will challenge you too then, since you think such a life is wonderful. Walk out into the wilderness with no clothes, tools, matches, or any other convenience that has been developed in the last ten thousand years and try to survive for a week or maybe a month or a year. This is the kind of life your "ideal world" would ever allow these people. - And they are people, not curiosities to make you feel better about the world.


Although I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, there is a tremendous difference between an amazon tribesman and someone pampered in the modern world his entire life with no previous experience or knowledge of surviving in the wilderness. While I'm not denying that life is hard in that environment, those people are far better conditioned for living in the wilderness than any of us. Of course this does not mean they should be remain cut off from the modern world.
Actually the biggest difference would be psychological. We know how much easier and more comfortable "civilized" life is so would more recognize the hardships as hardships. We would know that life does not mean having to try to sleep while being drained by mosquitoes, getting wet when it rains (those thatched roofs leak), enduring cold nights, accepting parasitic infestations as normal, or going hungry because the hunt went poorly. As far as knowledge of survival in the wilderness; only a little research in preparation would be needed and there are plenty of books available on the subject (the survival technique that I had the most trouble with is starting a fire without matches - it's damned hard work). Other than the unaccustomed discomfort, one of the greatest hurtles would be to overcome our aversion to eating things like toads, snails, grubs, etc. (again only a psychological difference).

[gregfl]

First the goal is self determination for the tribes and protection of the lands which will allow them this self determination, not forced isolation. In fact, I don't think forced isolation was ever mentioned in this thread. They know other people exist, and they surely could walk out of the woods if they wanted to. They choose not to. People automatically assume jungle people are ignorant and need our help...they are not and are in fact well suited for the environments in which they live.

Second, this way of life is by choice, and people in the amazon do not die in isgniciant numbers for lack of iodine and other medications. There are in fact trees that exude an iodine like substance from their bark, and the natives are walking enclyclopedias of jungle medicine which does work. The biggest threat isn't a lack of medication but the person who would deliver it to them and transport pathogens they are not equipped to deal with.

In my opinion it is an honorable goal to provide these people the land and means to continue along a path of self determination. Unfortunately, it probably is too little too late and their days are probably numbered.

[figuer]

One of the problems faced by native tribes in the Amazon is Aids. Bisexuality is common in these tribes, and it seems they generally dislike the notion of condoms...thus as they enter in contact with the outside world and start engaging in unprotected sex with their new 'friends' they become easy targets for the virus.

[militant agnostic]

Yep. That was my concern in the other thread about this.

The next time we see that red guy on the left he'll be wearing 1970's swim trunks and a t-shirt that says "Where's the beef?".

I think some atheist "missionaries" should get to them first, not to try to convert them but to warn them about the Jebus freaks that are about to descend upon them.

"Beware of anyone with stories of a zombie god... They are evil liars who really want to destroy your way of life."

Oh man, I was thinking the exact same thing. We should probably warn them about Islam too.

[theyeti]

I'm in the uncomfortable position of having to agree with maxparrish.

Contrary to archaic views of hunter-gatherer life being "nasty brutish and short", these people are extremely adept at surviving in the wilderness. The idea that they need our help would strike them as ludicrous. They would regard us as ignorant and weak. Until relatively recent in history, so-called primitive life was easier and gave you a longer life expectancy than "civilized" life. You don't need to worry about them, they've been making a living for thousands of years.

And as anthropologists long ago learned, primitive peoples are not morose, crazed, and living in a constant state of crisis. They are in general very happy. Much happier than we are in fact. They live in tight-knit communities where they work and play together in intimate groups. This was how all humans lived for 99% of our species' history, so it's no surprise that people are happy in this situation.

The history of "contacting" native tribes has generally not been good for them. Their traditional way of life and culture gets destroyed, and they get thrust into a mode of living that they know nothing about. They go from being masters of their world to being at the very bottom of a society that they can't understand. As a result, they are easily exploited by those who want their lands and resources, and they succumb to the many social diseases that accompany abject poverty.

Leave 'em alone. Everyone is better off that way.

theyeti

[modernPrimitive]

Have to agree with theyeti. Fortunately it seems that the Brazillian government favour leaving them be.

[Potoooooooo]

another update http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/n29383033-brazil-tribe/

[Potoooooooo]

Oh--here's a list of some of the other uncontacted groups in the Amazon.

http://lucy.ukc.ac.uk/Sonja/RF/Ukpr/Report34.htm

[Potoooooooo]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080603-uncontacted-tribes.html
New photos of an "uncontacted" Amazonian tribe and aerial video of their camp (watch below) have intensified the longstanding debate over how such tribes are labeled and what strategies to employ to protect them from developers.

Among the key questions: Should these people be contacted? And are they truly uncontacted in the first place?

[apatura_iris]

Another update (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/21/amazon?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews)... apparently the tribe wasn't uncontacted after all.

[Sapho]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080603-uncontacted-tribes.html
New photos of an "uncontacted" Amazonian tribe and aerial video of their camp (watch below) have intensified the longstanding debate over how such tribes are labeled and what strategies to employ to protect them from developers.

Among the key questions: Should these people be contacted? And are they truly uncontacted in the first place?




and is there oil under their land?

[Sho 'Nuff]

And all it will cost is maybe half of them dying from modern, Western diseases they have not developed a resistance to...which, BTW, is how such resistances are developed: descending from someone who survived it. They seem to be healthy and it is very unlikely they don't know we exist: they have made their choice, we should respect it.
Yeah, and without big biz extinguishing them with oozies.