Why don't I see arguments like these against teaching ID?

[Szkeptik]

I have watched and read many debates about including ID in science classes, and they all usually touch on the same old points in both camps, while I think there are many very good arguments against ID teaching that are never used.

I will write a few here to explain what I'm talking about. I will give some usual ID points in quote boxes and answer them in a way I haven't seen them answered before. If you have your own ideas like these then feel free to give them.

Teach kids both theories and let them decide for themselves.

It's not the high school children who should decide which is the better theory. One has to study a field for decades to be able to draw concusive opinions about the standing scientific consensus and the children (and often the teacher for that matter) clearly don't have the knowledge needed.

ID should be taught in science class

A scientific theory gets incorporated into the curriculum as the last step of it's acceptance. The scientific method must be applied, then it must survive the scrutiny of the testing, and after it has be accepted by the scientific community can it only be taken into school curricula. ID has not gone through any of the above points so it cannot be considered a valid theory and as such cannot get into science class.

An intelligent agent has engineered life

Who? How? What made the designer?

If answer to eighter is "leave it to philosophers/theologians" then theory is automaticly unscientific.

ID should be given equal treatment for the sake of free speech

Giving democratic rights to unfounded ideas is counter-productive in science. What will you do when holocaust denying history teachers will want equal rights for their ideas in class?

[Slobadog Melosivec]

Teach kids both theories and let them decide for themselves.




School is place to receive knowledge, not brainwashing. Thus it does not matter if some things like ID are not taught, in life kids are supposed to make up their own damn minds regardless. Tests are in place only to prove that you have received knowledge. Not that you accept it.


Thus a school is not about teaching all knowledge and ideas. It is just about teaching the knowledge and ideas that are commonly accepted by people who are experts in the various fields of study. Schools are not intended to be places for kids to debate about the knowledge they receive. They should do that on their own time. Not take up the schools time.

[Philosoft]

How the hell has the OP managed to read this board for nearly a year yet miss the multiple permutations of each of those rebuttals?

[Shadowy Man]

I wonder if you started to teach "intelligent design" but you offered up multiple options for the nature of the "intelligent agent", for example, a committee of gods who then delegate particular aspects of nature to sub-committees of lesser gods who then contract out nature construction to various demi-gods, would they stop wanting to teach ID in school? Would it be possible to teach ID without teaching that the "intelligent agent" is the Christian God?

[coloradoatheist]

I wonder if you started to teach "intelligent design" but you offered up multiple options for the nature of the "intelligent agent", for example, a committee of gods who then delegate particular aspects of nature to sub-committees of lesser gods who then contract out nature construction to various demi-gods, would they stop wanting to teach ID in school? Would it be possible to teach ID without teaching that the "intelligent agent" is the Christian God?

Not only that, but the second day of class you would have to talk about the more intelligent designer that created the Universe and the third day about that more intelligent designer, etc. You can't have your premise violate your conclussion which ID does.

Mike

[makerowner]

FSM is the best argument against ID. Any time the parents start pressuring school boards to include ID, atheists in the area should start pushing FSM too.

[zavijava]

I have an idea, teach kids about the difference between empiricism and rationalism...and then let the kids decide for themselves if ID is science.

[skepticalbip]

FSM is the best argument against ID. Any time the parents start pressuring school boards to include ID, atheists in the area should start pushing FSM too.
I would prefer that the atheist insist that if ID is taught then the Hopi creation myth also be taught, (with the state of PC today they couldn't ridicule the native Americans' beliefs) along with the creation myths from all religions. It is a reasonable demand and certainly could not be taught in a science class so it would have to be taught in a comparative religions class (which the ID crew would reject).

However, if the IDiots did accept it then I can only imagine that the kids seeing how many different ideas there are in so many different religions could only demonstrate for the kids that religion is not something that can be relied on for "truth".

The Hopi creation myth:
http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/hopicreation.htm
Way back in time all men emerged from a single hole in the earth. There was a mockingbird there at the entrance to the hole. He gave each a name and a language. To one he would say, "You shall be a Hopi and speak that tongue." To another, "You shall be an Apache and speak that language." And so it went for all who came from the hole, including the White People. The earth was still covered in darkness in those days so the peoples came together and decided to change things. They made the sun and the moon and placed them in the sky. With light and warmth things got easier for the people so the chiefs of all the races and tribes got together and decided to break up and go to different places. They decided to go eastward to where the sun rises and that whoever got there first was to cause a shower of stars to fall from the sky, and then everyone would see this and stop where they were. The Whites, always impatient, soon grew tired. Their women rubbed flakes of skin from their bodies and molded them into horses. Thus, mounted on these speedy animals, the Whites were first to arrive in the east. Thereupon a shower of stars fell to the ground and all remained where they were at the time.

[Angra Mainyu]

Taking notes from right-wing strategies, has anyone tried playing the patriotism card? :D (Yeah, I know probably someone has, since it'd be unbelievably unlikely that I came up with the idea, but just saying :D )


Something along the lines of:

If Creationists/IDers get it their way, American children will be learning mythology while believing they're learning science, whereas European, Russian, Chinese, and Indian children - and frankly, children from almost everywhere - will be learning science.

That doesn't sound good for the future of American leadership in the world.

Granted, Creationists/IDers will deny the status of the ToE as science, and/or claim their myth is science too, but I wonder if arguments like that might have some impact on the public opinion - sure, one could be accused of using bad means, etc.

Still, maybe that line of argumentation could at least be considered as a backup one.

[zavijava]

the argument is that a majority of the stupid are tired of the tyranny of the minority educated using truth to keep them from committing crimes in the name of their mythological totem animal.